Comments on: The most normal army in the world http://jewschool.com/2009/03/19/15579/the-most-normal-army-in-the-world/ Progressive Jews & Judaism Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:58:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Marc Gopin http://jewschool.com/2009/03/19/15579/the-most-normal-army-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-325051 Marc Gopin Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:55:53 +0000 http://jewschool.com/?p=15579#comment-325051 Dear Kung Fu Jew, I just put your blog on my blog roll because I was really impressed by it and hope to interact with you more often. I respect your respect for the average 18 year old and what they do in war. But here is where I think you need to respect differences and personal biographies. I never hit anyone as a kid, they could not train me to box or do martial arts. i just couldn't. I have hated violence my whole life and I know what I would have done and not done in this situation. I have faced it many times. I was studying Stanley Milgram as a kid, best thing that ever happened to me at 13 was reading those experiments cuz it anesthetized me to the power of the mob. i did make a mistake about the Iraq war based on false information from my government. In any case, i respectfully differ with your conclusions and believe that with a new approach to education we can help most 18 year olds resist the power of authoritarian imposition of immorality or mob psychology. Dear Kung Fu Jew, I just put your blog on my blog roll because I was really impressed by it and hope to interact with you more often. I respect your respect for the average 18 year old and what they do in war. But here is where I think you need to respect differences and personal biographies. I never hit anyone as a kid, they could not train me to box or do martial arts. i just couldn’t. I have hated violence my whole life and I know what I would have done and not done in this situation. I have faced it many times. I was studying Stanley Milgram as a kid, best thing that ever happened to me at 13 was reading those experiments cuz it anesthetized me to the power of the mob. i did make a mistake about the Iraq war based on false information from my government. In any case, i respectfully differ with your conclusions and believe that with a new approach to education we can help most 18 year olds resist the power of authoritarian imposition of immorality or mob psychology.

]]> By: Kung Fu Jew http://jewschool.com/2009/03/19/15579/the-most-normal-army-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-324429 Kung Fu Jew Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:14:05 +0000 http://jewschool.com/?p=15579#comment-324429 Marc, with all due respect (because I hold a lot for you and your work, particularly with Syria), if you were an 18 year old having not even gone to college yet, I honestly don't think you would have done much differently than any Israeli. There are exceptions in people, of course. But having worked intimately with the Breaking the Silence tour this time last year, the most frightening aspects of those veterans' post-service admissions is how many of them stayed quiet in the service and continued duties that repeatedly violated human rights abuses because they felt, in their words, that if THEY quit, the asshole who really DIDN'T care about Arab life would take their place at the checkpoint, in the unit, as commander of the mission, etc. Or they waited until the end of their service to have the credentials to be taken seriously on the outside. Because complaints on the inside are ignored. You're an exceptional person, but you're not holier than them. I think the point of what you think you would do is to be honored (expected of all soliders) but the issue is more grey than anyone could think. Marc, with all due respect (because I hold a lot for you and your work, particularly with Syria), if you were an 18 year old having not even gone to college yet, I honestly don’t think you would have done much differently than any Israeli. There are exceptions in people, of course.

But having worked intimately with the Breaking the Silence tour this time last year, the most frightening aspects of those veterans’ post-service admissions is how many of them stayed quiet in the service and continued duties that repeatedly violated human rights abuses because they felt, in their words, that if THEY quit, the asshole who really DIDN’T care about Arab life would take their place at the checkpoint, in the unit, as commander of the mission, etc. Or they waited until the end of their service to have the credentials to be taken seriously on the outside. Because complaints on the inside are ignored.

You’re an exceptional person, but you’re not holier than them. I think the point of what you think you would do is to be honored (expected of all soliders) but the issue is more grey than anyone could think.

]]> By: Jonathan http://jewschool.com/2009/03/19/15579/the-most-normal-army-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-323913 Jonathan Sun, 22 Mar 2009 03:54:42 +0000 http://jewschool.com/?p=15579#comment-323913 "I would have refused every one of those orders, I would have stood up to every soldier and happily gone to prison. I would have torn up the rabbinic manual on killing civilians as a mitsvah and threw it in the face of the fascist who wrote it while pretending he is a religious authority." You would have...but instead you elected to live a compfortable life in America... “I would have refused every one of those orders, I would have stood up to every soldier and happily gone to prison. I would have torn up the rabbinic manual on killing civilians as a mitsvah and threw it in the face of the fascist who wrote it while pretending he is a religious authority.”

You would have…but instead you elected to live a compfortable life in America…

]]> By: xisnotx http://jewschool.com/2009/03/19/15579/the-most-normal-army-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-323864 xisnotx Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:04:39 +0000 http://jewschool.com/?p=15579#comment-323864 "israel’s aims are peaceful" Is that why it keeps building settlements? or is it because Israel's aims are pieceful?" “israel’s aims are peaceful”

Is that why it keeps building settlements? or is it because Israel’s aims are pieceful?”

]]> By: gili http://jewschool.com/2009/03/19/15579/the-most-normal-army-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-323702 gili Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:06:45 +0000 http://jewschool.com/?p=15579#comment-323702 it is interesting that the concern with the IDF is that it is moral. israel and all who are connected to her fight these wars (whether moral or not, just or not) first within ourselves. gaza, lebanon and all the other of israel's wars stretching back are outpicturing of these internal battles we fight everyday. a moral army, the whole concept is ludicrous. it is honorable to be willing to sacrifice one's life for others yet it becomes morally gray at best when the same willingness is applied towards killing and oppressing others even when it is done in the name of protecting and defending others. the most moral thing to do is to work for an alternative that is peaceful not just in its ends but also peaceful in its means. israel's aims are peaceful - security for jews. but her means are not and breaking the silence's reports attest to that. isn't it more moral to have no need for an army? isn't more moral to have an army that is dedicated to peace both in ends and in means? it is interesting that the concern with the IDF is that it is moral. israel and all who are connected to her fight these wars (whether moral or not, just or not) first within ourselves. gaza, lebanon and all the other of israel’s wars stretching back are outpicturing of these internal battles we fight everyday.

a moral army, the whole concept is ludicrous. it is honorable to be willing to sacrifice one’s life for others yet it becomes morally gray at best when the same willingness is applied towards killing and oppressing others even when it is done in the name of protecting and defending others.

the most moral thing to do is to work for an alternative that is peaceful not just in its ends but also peaceful in its means. israel’s aims are peaceful – security for jews. but her means are not and breaking the silence’s reports attest to that.

isn’t it more moral to have no need for an army? isn’t more moral to have an army that is dedicated to peace both in ends and in means?

]]> By: Marc Gopin http://jewschool.com/2009/03/19/15579/the-most-normal-army-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-323697 Marc Gopin Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:42:52 +0000 http://jewschool.com/?p=15579#comment-323697 Thanks for the expose, but as to your last comments, sorry it is not you and me. I would have refused every one of those orders, I would have stood up to every soldier and happily gone to prison. I would have torn up the rabbinic manual on killing civilians as a mitsvah and threw it in the face of the fascist who wrote it while pretending he is a religious authority. Then I would have been proud to be a Jew, and proud of my rabbinical ordination. We have become a nation of moral cowards beneath the wait of this madness. This was not a war. Hamas barely fought, and the Jewish commanders knew it and were frustrat. This was a slaughter, yet another punishment of civilians because they cannot crush the Palestinian spirit. This was really for themselves, to show how tough Jews. But the sad truth is that they cannot do the one thing in the Middle East, or in the world, that would make them truly safe and normal, make anyone like them. The tough Jew cannot do this because he thinks that kind of softness got us killed in the Holocaust. Let them continue to fight the Holocaust in the Middle East. One day they will discover the old Jew as having ten times more wisdom of survival then the new tough Jews. Marc Gopin www.marcgopin.com Thanks for the expose, but as to your last comments, sorry it is not you and me. I would have refused every one of those orders, I would have stood up to every soldier and happily gone to prison. I would have torn up the rabbinic manual on killing civilians as a mitsvah and threw it in the face of the fascist who wrote it while pretending he is a religious authority. Then I would have been proud to be a Jew, and proud of my rabbinical ordination. We have become a nation of moral cowards beneath the wait of this madness. This was not a war. Hamas barely fought, and the Jewish commanders knew it and were frustrat. This was a slaughter, yet another punishment of civilians because they cannot crush the Palestinian spirit. This was really for themselves, to show how tough Jews. But the sad truth is that they cannot do the one thing in the Middle East, or in the world, that would make them truly safe and normal, make anyone like them. The tough Jew cannot do this because he thinks that kind of softness got us killed in the Holocaust. Let them continue to fight the Holocaust in the Middle East. One day they will discover the old Jew as having ten times more wisdom of survival then the new tough Jews.

Marc Gopin
www.marcgopin.com

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