Comments on: Kaddish as Folk Religion

By: justin

justin — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:38:16 +0000

Aharon-

I don’t think it is the job of any community leader to “control,” it’s the job of a rabbi to make Judaism relevant in peoples’ lives. Plus, no one has any idea what people do in the privacy of their own homes. But I appreciate hearing that Jews in Cleveland are so much holier Jews in other places.

By: Aharon

Aharon — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 02:47:11 +0000

Justin-

I’m sorry to hear that you are unable to control your community. Here in Cleveland we have several Orthodox communities where nearly nobody would say Kaddish by themselves.

By: Adam

Adam — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 21:33:16 +0000

Some theorize it has always been thus.

By: Justin

Justin — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 01:58:23 +0000

Kol Nidre is folk religion, Aleinu is folk religion, Ein Keloheinu is folk religion, Tashlikh is folk religion. Some of the most well known and most beloved rituals and liturgical innovations come into regular practice because amcha wants it…

By: adam

adam — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 23:13:56 +0000

What’s interesting is that Kaddish Yatom is one of the best known of the prayers among Amcha. For many, its the only reason they’re coming to services. Most have no idea what they’re saying unless its recited in English as well.

In one of the services I lead (where the avg age is 80), we do that after the Aramaic. I used to hate that, but now feel its an important step. Perhaps all Kaddishes (Hatzi, Shalem, D’Rabbanan) should be so…

Kaddish is folk religion. Avinu Shabashamayim is also state (or civic) religion, dressed as ‘state religion’ that has for many has become folk religion. Didn’t we always say a prayer for the State of Israel?

By: justin

justin — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 22:41:30 +0000

Jack,
that’s the whole thing… rabbis and other jews who observe halakhah can put as many periods as they want after a law, but amcha will do what amcha will do. simhat torah is case in point. the rabbis said no, period. and today we have simhat torah. kaddish itself is case in point. kaddish was never intended for mourners. the only reason it is today recited by mourners is because amcha took control of it. this is precisely the point of my observations. even if i made a psak and told these people they had to stop, they’d keep doing what they do because they find it important.

By: Jack Katz

Jack Katz — Fri, 02 Dec 2011 03:05:23 +0000

If you’re not in mourning (an ovel) or observing a yartzheit, you should not be saying Kaddish, PERIOD. It was for this reason that our ancestors in Europe – those who were not required to say Kaddish but felt this primal but halachically incorrect “urge” – hired “batlumim” or idlers to do what many Americans now inappropriately feel is their duty or obligation.

It is far worse than maris ayen to give the false impression that you are an ovel (or observing a yartzheit) to others, no matter how good your intentions are… remember — and bal tchuvahs note well — being “too good” is recognized under the laws of loshen hora as having the same effect as speaking with evil tongue on behalf of the sotton.

By: Justin

Justin — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 01:05:44 +0000

@sash-that’s an interesting point. I don’t believe that we can draw that conclusion though. another great example would be simhat torah. this is a holiday which the rabbis vociferously disagreed with, and lost. kaddish is actually case and point that the distinction is not precisely because it was designed for a specific intent and then appropriated by the non-rabbinic public for their own uses. that the rabbis ended up accepting such things as simhat torah or mourners’ kaddish is, if anything, a testament to rabbinic pragmatism in incorporating folk religion into state religion.

By: gabrielw

gabrielw — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 23:54:43 +0000

I’m a non observant Jew and was recently travelling through Europe. I went to the city in Germany where my late grandfather was born and in the beit-hakravot found the tombstone of my greatgrandfather. I recited the Kaddish because its just felt the right thing to do. Then I started wondering if it was OK. This article is 100% right…

By: sash

sash — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 20:54:20 +0000

Doesn’t the late date of the mourner’s Kaddish and absence of any mention of it in the most authoritative halachic sources evidence that the folk religion/religion distinction is dubious.