Comments on: Declining Democracy in Israel – Part I

By: joey

joey — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 01:07:53 +0000

Just to point out… Every country is dependent on outsiders for quality of life and security. This is axiomatic. Israel is not more uniquely so than anyone else. This is a talking point aimed at convincing (scaring) Israelis to relinquish sovereignty, and in this case to empower American Jews who think they know better what Israeli policy should be.

Andrea makes a lot of sense here and is bringing up points I haven’t seen about these “human rights” issues that we hear about so often on jewschool and progressive media outlets. If religious jewish soldiers don’t wish to be in the presence of a woman singer, and if they are ordered to do so by commanders, then it’s a clear violation of their rights. These guys are not disobeying orders to shoot or to die, but frivolous nonsense. They are not causing disruptions, or throwing rocks, just walking away quietly. Some Israeli commanders are obviously on a power trip to be making an issue of this. The US Army doesn’t force Muslim soldiers to eat pork, and if it did, KFJ would be standing with the soldiers, not their commanders. I don’t see why matters of Jewish faith should warrant criticism from the US secretary of state.

By: Jonathan1

Jonathan1 — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:10:53 +0000

But before that, can we dispense with the boloney that American Jews shouldn’t (and do not already) hugely influence Israel’s policies?

How do they hugely influence Israel’s policies?

By: Kung Fu Jew 18

Kung Fu Jew 18 — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:50:51 +0000

Andrea, you seem a very reasonable person. I will explain the reasons for my and my Israeli colleagues’ concerns in the following posts.

But before that, can we dispense with the boloney that American Jews shouldn’t (and do not already) hugely influence Israel’s policies? It’s just not a reflection of reality. Israelis don’t live in a vacuum and are dependent on outsiders for their quality of life and security.

By: Sophie

Sophie — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 15:03:28 +0000

@Andrea Moria +1

By: Andrea Moriah

Andrea Moriah — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 00:47:03 +0000

It is very insulting to frame American Jewry as the last bastion of Jewish democracy. This is entirely hysterical and is a response led by the nose by other media and the current American Administration which is bent on discrediting Netanyahu in retaliation refusal to come to the “peace” table in the middle of outright chaos in the wake of the “Arab Spring”. If you looked closely at the laws involved, instead of just knee-jerking to them, you would find that there are excesses in Israeli society that should be checked, i.e., virulently anti-Israel NGOs being funded by the Israeli government, and there are problems showing up in the Israeli army that do not “herald the end of democracy” but are only normal problems inherent in a mixed population of religious, orthodox and secular (and Bedouin and Arab) soldiers, i.e., religious soldiers not wanting to be in the company of women singers (very few, mind you.) Fortunately or unfortunately, depending upon the way you look at it, more and more moderately religious young men and women are entering the IDF and becoming its officers and members of its special units, as the secular Jews in Israel take less and less of an interest in serving in the army, especially if it means putting in the extra years and reserve duty expected of them if they become officers. So the army is changing due to its make-up. At one time leftist Kibbutzniks were the officers and in the special units. So, the army represented Socialist Zionist values. This is no longer the case. Keep in mind, if Muslim Arabs (and some already do) ever join the IDF in droves (doubtful, but possible) you will see an even more voracious demand for special religious accommodation, which the IDF will have to grapple with. In such a case, those such as you would be clamoring for Israel to make concessions to their “sensibilities” (such as making Israeli soldiers cover their heads and bodies) and would not even think of raising the issue of eroding democratic values. So, stem your hysteria and your hypocrisy and stop fanning the fires – it’s hot enough over here. As for the issue of the public buses being segregated between men and women – granted this goes against Israeli law, but the population that uses these buses — men and women — prefer the segregation. Is this a case of eroding democratic rights or trying to be sensitive to a specific population? Again, if Arabs wanted Israel to institute special buses to segregate men from women and Israel refused to do so based on their democratic freedoms, the whole world would accuse of us trying to dismiss and destroy Muslim traditions. Look at the US, for instance, which has allowed Muslim women to cover their faces for driver’s licences in certain states, or the cases in Europe where the courts have not indicted men who beat and maim their daughters and/or wives, by bowing to sharia. We in Israel might keep women from singing next to very religious soldiers, but I guarantee you that honor killing will never be tolerated in this country to satisfy any religious group.

By: Mas

Mas — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:14:05 +0000

I agree that the bills you are describing are bad. I believe in democracy. But…

Over the past twenty or so years, Israel has perpetrated the following violations of any definition of democracy, against the right wing:

1. The banning of far-right parties from running for the knesset (I am not at all a Kahanist, but it hardly seems democratic to ban him, does it?)

2. The silencing of right-wing media outlets (www.haaretz.com/news/operators-of-arutz-sheva-convicted-of-pirate-transmissions-1.103250)

3. Massive violations of the civil rights of anti-disengagement protesters (see this pdf: www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/Pinui_Final_for_Web.pdf)

These are just a few of the more egregious violations. Where were you when they were happening? Why should the right wing care about democracy when the left wing so obviously doesn’t? Shouldn’t democracy work both ways?

By: david

david — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 23:34:45 +0000

walking around jerusalem today i was struck by the posters for rallies around the countryto reclaim democracy in israel this motzei shabbat- public discussion about the assault on democracy. … i think it’s a little chutzpadik/ out of place to say that “american jewry as the last line to save democracy in israel…”
i also add that from listening to people here talk- the right wing feels as alienated and targeted by this government and these policies and politriks as anyone… which just begs- who are those guys working for anyway?
may we see the people rising in the streets, but more importantly the ballots, the social services and the local gov’t!

By: Kung Fu Jew 18

Kung Fu Jew 18 — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 23:31:22 +0000

Michael and Dan, the non-Jewish mainstream press rarely discusses internal Israeli matters. Of late, the domestic affairs made it onto the Associated Press wire and even the front page of the NY Times. These issues are not new and the liberal side of the Israel-centric crowd have followed them for years. So I am seeking to outline why it suddenly garnered notice — because the situation there is unusually bleak.

By: Dan O.

Dan O. — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:30:40 +0000

“This issue has “suddenly” (i.e. only now) reached mainstream news because the AIPAC crowd constantly labels criticisms of Israel as anti-semitic (from non-Jews) or self-hating (from Jews.)”

With all due respect to both AIPAC and the mainstream media… Wait… What?

The mainstream media doesn’t cover *anything* of importance until it is too late, and it doesn’t need AIPAC to help it along. Anyone expecting much out of the mainstream media echo chamber after ‘Hello! No WMD’s’ is expecting way too much. And anyone who knows anything about media knows why: (i) reporters aren’t just paid, and when they are they’re paid to do the bidding of an editor, and (ii) news organizations are too interested in protecting sources mostly because it’s a cheaper way to produce news than to pay reporters.

Still, don’t you read The Forward? That’s about as mainstream as you can get from a Jewish perspective. And yet, they cover all of the things you say they don’t.

No offense intended to KFJ, but this is advocacy (with which, of course, I’m sympathetic). KFJ is not exactly breaking news.

By: Michael Doyle

Michael Doyle — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 22:37:29 +0000

Are you kidding? This issue has “suddenly” (i.e. only now) reached mainstream news because the AIPAC crowd constantly labels criticisms of Israel as anti-semitic (from non-Jews) or self-hating (from Jews.) Mainstream media and American politicians fear the backlash they’ll receive from old-guard domestic Jewish interest groups if they express negativity on Israel.

Meanwhile, liberal Israelis have been begging American Jews to open our mouths about all this for the past few YEARS.