Comments on: Don’t just rewrite ‘Hatikvah.’ Go further.

By: AbeBird

AbeBird — Wed, 29 May 2013 07:58:52 +0000

It’s too bad that many people speak their mind and determine their mind on matters they do not understand. Israel is a Jewish state as Arabs’ states are Arabs’. Second Israel is a fine democracy in any sense, just like the U.S., Britain and France are democracies. Israel is the first Jewish state, and is therefore called a ‘Jewish state’, just as France is called a ‘French state’ and the UK is a “British state” or “the State of the British”. It is un-understandable confusing to claim that Israel is not a democracy because she is a Jewish state? So, why you call France a democracy and yet she is the state of the French people? People show their ignorance by claiming that a “Jewish state” means a Jewish religious state. It is much far from truth, neglecting to know the nature of the state of Israel that was created by Zionist movements, which means secular parties among Jews. Israel gives free choice for each citizen and inhabitant to freely practice its own religion. The “Law of Return” is not a religion law but a nationally law. The state defines “who is a Jew” differently than the rabbinical clergy, based on sociologic and national values specified to rescue people that are threatened and persecuted at their birthplaces just because their neighbors think them to be Jewish (Law of return – one of a person’s third generation being Jewish, enabling the person to claim for immediate Israeli citizenship, but he won’t consider a Jew by the religious authorities).

Israeli Arabs are equal citizens under any Israeli definition and test. They serve as supreme judges, Knesset members, they serve in the army (those who volunteer) and in the police, and they are doctors, farmers, lawyers, teachers and more. The basic problem yet is that Israeli Arabs have conflict that their state fights their people. As far as peace is not achieved they will always feel the same.

By: isaak

isaak — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:01:20 +0000

@Jonathan1,

Israel might not be an American-style Democracy, but it is very much in line with the European model of Democracy i.e. that of a Nation-State centred around one ethnic group.

The Law of Return is not unique to Israel, a great number of states have equivalent immigration laws that favor one group of non-citizens over another group of non-citizens:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

By: adam davis

adam davis — Tue, 03 Apr 2012 21:56:35 +0000

I, for one, would be proud to zing the “The Star Spanglish Banner.”

As an aside, I bought a CD last year of recordings taken from phonograph (possibly cylinder even) of recordings of early 20th century Iraqi Jewish musicians (apparently that’s redundant). Among the songs was an early recording of “Hatiqwah” sung with the original lyrics and with the Iraqi Hebrew pronuciation. Either version should be perfectly acceptable. No rewrite is necessary.

By: Jonathan1

Jonathan1 — Mon, 02 Apr 2012 22:11:20 +0000

you’re the only one who understands me, my internet soulmate

By: miri

miri — Mon, 02 Apr 2012 21:52:04 +0000

this is why we need to admit that Israel was never a democracy in the tradition of the modern liberal Western democracy.

It was–and aspires to be–an ethnocentric society that attempts to incorporate many characteristics of liberal Western democracy (such as respect for minorities.)

That’s not the same as America and Britain. The fundamental law of the country–the Law of Return–by nature discriminates in the favor of Jews.

Jonathan1, you’re playing my song!

By: Victor

Victor — Mon, 02 Apr 2012 21:42:25 +0000

Obviously, none of what is being suggested above will ever happen. As a thought exercise, however, what is being proposed is about the most counter-productive way of encouraging the 95% of Israeli Jews for whom the Jewish symbolism of the state matters to NOT work towards enfranchising the Arab Israeli population. Whatever well-intentioned person writes idiotic proposals like this may as well be campaigning door to door on behalf of Avigdor Lieberman and Yisrael Beteinu.

You don’t encourage pluralism, coexistance and minority rights by launching an assault on the private and public passions of an overwhelming majority of the population. This lack of thinking through the outcome of your advocacy is why the Israeli left is in tatters.

Israeli Jews will not work towards embracing and normalizing the country’s Arab population when they feel their lives, values and identities under threat; they’ll do it when they know they’ve won, conclusively and totally. When Israel’s Arab population is ready to embrace the country’s Jewish character, it will no longer be asked to do so. Only then will minority rights and the Arab narrative be celebrated – when they are no longer of consequence.

Until then, proposals like these are just feeding a spiraling culture war that can only end one way – a victory for, shall we say, unpleasant manifestations of nationalism, which none of us would prefer.

By: David A.M. Wilensky

David A.M. Wilensky — Mon, 02 Apr 2012 17:24:13 +0000

@William Burns: I thought about that, actually. But my sense is that there isn’t a significant contingent of Christians who are disenfranchised because they are Christians. (Though there are some who are disenfranchised because they’re also Arabs.)

@beth: There is no doubt that you’re right that “Hatikvah” is small potatoes compared to… well… everything else. This post was mostly just an exercise in picking over details for me.

@Uri Allen:
“I am not aware that the Arab citizens of Israel have yearned for national self determination in similar ways that Jewish Israelis have.”
Certainly neither Palestinians nor Arab Israelis have yearned for quite so long, but the yearning of Palestinians for a state is as strong now as the Jewish yearning for a state was in the years before independence. And I imagine the yearning of Arab Israelis to be treated as equal citizens is a pretty strong yearning as well.
“What, you think that all of them will pack up and move to Palestine whenever it is finally created (may it be soon and in our day)?”
All of them, no. (Did all of us move to Israel when it was created?) But some of them have lived in crappy conditions in Jordan long enough to want out.
“In 50 years should America include a line in Spanish or change the language of the anthem to Spanish so that we all can sing it or make reference to crossing borders for freedom and opportunity? How absurd!”
I agree that it would be odd to sprinkle some Spanish into “The Star Spangled Banner,” but there’s already a Spanish version of it sung in Spanish classes all over the country. But the US anthem is different for (at least) three reasons:
1. We most often encounter it at sporting events, while Israelis encounter it regularly throughout their mandatory military service.
2. The US does not have an official language.
3. Our national anthem is not about the history of a particular ethnic subset of our population, nor is it about anything that preceded America. It’s about the flag, a symbol of all Americans that lacks a particular ethnic or pre-American cultural significance.

By: justin

justin — Mon, 02 Apr 2012 15:50:27 +0000

@Uri-
other (western, democratic) nations are not built upon the principle of ethnic exclusion… the lyrics of the national anthem of, for example, the US speaks about a common appreciation for the victorious battle of Ft McHenry in the War of 1812. it’s a love song to the flag which represents to most americans the ideals of freedom which the war of 1812 were supposedly fought over. (you know me well enough to know how hard it was for me to write that). The US national anthem is relevant to any individual who becomes a citizen of the nation and respects its flag and the history of wars it fought in the name of those values.

On the other side, Israel’s national anthem is a completely exclusionary expression of the Jewish yearning for a return to our homeland. Well, that does not necessarily reflect the desires of all of Israel’s tax-paying, voting citizens. Like J1 said, it’s a discriminatory, ethno-centric nation in its founding principles. those who want to change its national anthem also seem to want it to hold democratic values.

By: Jonathan1

Jonathan1 — Mon, 02 Apr 2012 06:27:01 +0000

@Uri Allen.

On the flip side, this is why we need to admit that Israel was never a democracy in the tradition of the modern liberal Western democracy.

It was–and aspires to be–an ethnocentric society that attempts to incorporate many characteristics of liberal Western democracy (such as respect for minorities.)

That’s not the same as America and Britain. The fundamental law of the country–the Law of Return–by nature discriminates in the favor of Jews.

That’s fine with me, but we should as admit as such.

By: Uri Allen

Uri Allen — Mon, 02 Apr 2012 02:52:29 +0000

Um…last I checked Israel was still a Jewish state? Why should they take out references to an ancient hope to return to the Land of Israel, Zion and being Jewish. I am pretty sure Israel exists today because of that hope – a Jewish hope. And pardon me, but I am not aware that the Arab citizens of Israel have yearned for national self determination in similar ways that Jewish Israelis have. What, you think that all of them will pack up and move to Palestine whenever it is finally created (may it be soon and in our day)? Do other countries have to change their national anthem to accommodate growing minority populations? In 50 years should America include a line in Spanish or change the language of the anthem to Spanish so that we all can sing it or make reference to crossing borders for freedom and opportunity? How absurd! Arab Israelis have a different narrative that should be appreciated, studied and respected. But with all due respect they are not the target audience of the creation or continued existence of the State of Israel apart from being citizens of course. Philologos’ suggestions show no understanding of Jewish history nor Arab history in the same land.
Sorry for the rant but this makes me really angry. If you don’t like Hatikvah don’t sing it. But don’t think that these kinds of changes are going to make Arabs happy or feel more welcome in Israel. Beth is right – if you have a problem with nationalism in general you’re going to have a problem with any expression of that that excludes minority popluations. That’s not the function of national anthems.