People change the law. People change communities. You act as if these things just kind of happen. The Conservative movement will (likely) change because those communities are already changing, and the people in those communities will change the law. If the process for people changing halacha doesn’t work this way, please, elaborate. But this nonsense about things just happening is just that.

“there is a process through which we can change interpretation of halakhah when it presents itself as necessary.”

Great! Let’s get started.

halakhah is a holistic system for those of us who view it as obligatory. we don’t get to pick and choose, but there is a process through which we can change interpretation of halakhah when it presents itself as necessary.

halakhah does not “reject” people, it has statuses which some people fall into and some do not – and it provides a mechanism for any person desiring to enter the status of being “Jewish” according to halakhah.

You do not have to accept halakhah, Dan. Thank God that the Jewish tradition has always exhibited a diversity of creative expression. If you do not like the standards, practices and customs of Conservative or Orthodox Judaism there are plenty of other organized and non-organized affiliations, identities or communal expressions which do not hold by the standards of Conservative or Orthodox Judaism.

halakhah is holistic, it’s the way it is, we don’t get to pick and choose which mitzvot are obligatory and which are not. the law changes over time because communities change over time. it’s not bizarre. it’s the process. and when you’ve studied as much halakhah as you have Hegel, then we can really begin to have a full conversation about it. For at least 2k+ years Jews have used the halakhic process to determine the interpretation of Jewish law and custom. There have always been Jews who reject it, that’s fine. But it is what it is and some of us do accept it, find meaning in it and seek to keep it living and evolutionary.

The process to change the standard of what defines a Jew by birth is not as simple as some may think. The quickest, “easiest” way to go about doing that would be to institute a takanah, a fix, which would have drastic implications on other points of law. that’s how legal systems work. laws do not exist in a vacuum, they are part of an integral system whereby changes to one law inevitably has an affect on other laws. this is the problem with changing this law and only one of the things which makes it so challenging.

For those people who identify as Jews and do not have that status accorded by Conservative or Orthodox understandings have a good number of other communities to affiliate with if they so choose. Whenever someone comes to me and wants my help in becoming Jewish, I always make sure to inform them of the implications of converting under the auspices of the Conservative movement and make sure that they are aware of all which that means, and I encourage them to explore other avenues of Jewish expression across the spectrum so that they find the one that most speaks to them and fits with their worldview and values. But should any of those expressions of the Jewish tradition change and mold themselves to the demands of someone who is clearly not totally at home there? of course not. Just like I would never expect other avenues of Jewish expression to conform to the ideals of the Conservative movement, I do not see why the Conservative movement should change its ideals to conform to the ideals of other expressions of Judaism.

I was asking for clarification, not refutation. You answered my question. You adopt strong holism, but allow for changes in the content of law over time. Fair enough. It’s a bizarre position, because it turns such ‘evolution’ into a bunch of ideological death matches.

I am actually kind of glad you obliquely referred to me as a Jewish goy. As I said, I wouldn’t want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member (but reject Mr. Wilensky).

BZ – Sorry, and thanks for the correction.

The answer amounts to “don’t be anything other than Orthodox” if you want to be recognized as halakhically Jewish by the Orthodox world…

This is why I feel all of this is about communal norm, and those who want to be a part of a community will adopt the norms of those communities. So, if someone wants to join a Reform community, this is all a non-issue. Someone wants to join a Conservative community, it is only an issue for those who do not accept the norms of the community, and same for Orthodox and so on.

It’s not secret members of USCJ synagogues do not observe the halakhah of their rabbis, but they join those synagogues knowing it is a halakhic movement. Most people don’t join shuls based on theology, they join based on schools, friends and “flavor”.

And I knew what you were responding to. I just didn’t think your answer was particularly responsive.

This is what I was responding to, btw

I’m pretty sure Dan’s point wasn’t that CJ as a movement doesn’t treat halacha as authoritative, but that most Jews who self-identify as Conservative don’t treat halacha as authoritative in their own lives. This is certainly true of my family members who are Conservative, and I believe you’ve written as much about your own congregation.

I dont have the time or desire to refute you, but you are wrong about the “niche” of CJ, although I can see why it may appear the way you paint it. CJ has never ceded that a law is not authoritative. It evolves law, precisely because its view is that halakhah is authoritative and obligatory. There has never been a need to change this halakhah since it came into the system and I and most others who have a say in making those decisions also do not see a need to change the law.