Open air prison? How many tons of aid pass through Israel to Gaza each day? I am not saying that the border closure does not make life difficult, but open air prisons do not have markets, zoos, and shopping malls.

I think identifying who is at fault is quite important. As long as the the Israeli Government cannot defend its people without using checkpoints and border controls, than doing so, while certainly not ideal, is both necessary and moral. Every state has the right and obligation to defend its citizens, Israel not excluded. I agree that its not what I would have wanted, and I do hope to see the day when the Palestians can get leadership that will prepare them for a real peace, but as long as Israel continues to act with dignity, I am proud to call it home. Sorry if this sounds like a rant.

Ok. I have a hard time seeing how any arrangement will lead to a permanent peaceful solution.

I do, however, think that one bi-national state has more of a chance of working. Even if the two sides came to a 2-state agreement (which they never will) there just isn’t enough land/natural resources to be allocated between two distinct political entities.

Maybe with one bi-national state, we can create a situation where there is a common incentive to cooperate vis-a-vis natural resources, and the strongest opponents of partition perhaps can be brought into the fold . . . . but for sure it might lead to disaster.

I sustpect that this too is an agree to disagree situation, but perhaps you can elaborate so I can know exactly what it is that I am disagreeing with.

The dream–for me–doesn’t include holding a million plus people in an open air prison in Gaza, nor keeping our collective foot on two million people’s necks in Judea and Samaria. Whoever is at fault for all of this, it’s just not how things were supposed to turn out–to me.

This isn’t the Jewish State of which we’ve dreamed (because of what’s happened in the territories since 1967).

I sustpect that this too is an agree to disagree situation, but perhaps you can elaborate so I can know exactly what it is that I am disagreeing with.

Just Me – I agree completely with your comments directed at Ariel and am glad that you enjoyed the link. I appreciate your support, but I visit this blog expecting to find people I disagree with. Jonathan 1 has shown a greater understanding of the reality, at least in my opinion, than other contributers and I enjoy trying to get to the bottom of the many disagreements on this topic.

@Avraham

Yes.

This isn’t the Jewish State of which we’ve dreamed (because of what’s happened in the territories since 1967).

Bi-nationalism might work out ok. The settlers wouldn’t have to move, Hamas might be brought into the arrangement, we’d still be able to maintain our own school systems and family court systems. There could still be a thriving Jewish community in the Land of Israel, albeit under different conditions than what exist presently.

It might work, it might not. But the status quo isn’t what we dreamed about.

Avraham wrote (above) I cannot, however, accept giving up part of Jerusalem and I do not think that it is a reasonable demand

It is just you.

Of course, this is all likely to remain a theoretical discussion, as the initiative goes against many fundamental principles of the Palestinian leadership and the Palestinian street.

Ok. I hear what you’re saying.

I would put it this way, though: There just isn’t a deal that will be acceptable to both side, and there isn’t enough room for two separate states to begin with–so the best answer is one, bi-national state.

@Jonathan1 – I think you are being inappropriate as Avraham’s comments don’t imply a “no” to your questions. Please go cyber-bully elsewhere. Or better yet, nowhere.

@Avraham – Thank you for the interesting link. I hope that, for their sake, no USB flash drives were used in the making of the Methodist conference, lest they benefit three innovative Israelis.