“Not all American Jews back Israel”
The Pakistani Daily Times offers the following:
Not all American Jews back Israeli policies, nor are all of them Zionists, as evidenced by a quarter-page advertisement placed in Washington Post Sunday by a group calling itself Jews Against Zionism.
Describing itself as the “silent majority American Jewry,” the group in an open letter to President George Bush expresses its “deep and abiding interest in the suffering of the peoples of the Middle East” and support for the president’s “desire to bring an end to all the bloodshed and violence there.”
The group says the president knows of Jews who support the state of Israel, but may not have heard about the “silent majority of Jews opposed to Zionism” because it remains ignored by the media and steadfast in their loyalty to their rabbis that the ideology of Zionism is in utter opposition to the Jewish religion.
(c/o Kesher Talk)
Are you kidding me? These are the same people who throw rocks at cars on Shabbos! They’re the hardcore fundamentalist extremist minority! These people only oppose the state of Israel because they’re quite literally waiting for The Messiah to magically fly them there! Does The Daily Times actually believe groups like Neturei Karta bag that much weight, or that these people in some way represent the majority of American Jews who are Reform and/or secular? (Well actually, if you consider how gravely fundamentalist these people are, they probably don’t consider 99% of Jews to be Jewish, so…) It’s preposterous.
I found another interesting op-ed on a Malaysian news site, Malaysiakini, entitled “Not all Jews are Zionists,” which swiftly condemns Israel but invokes the presence of “anti-Zionist Jews such as Noam Chomsky.” I couldn’t help but laugh.
This is why people say that disloyal Jews are worse than Nazis… They completely misrepresent Jewish people and provide “the rope of opinion” our opponents need to hang us with (like I do in the post above).
Personally as a secular person, I don’t care for Naturei Karta’s theological explanations but I do sometimes agree with their political and logical conclusions
It also seems to me that by their reading of the Torah, the state of Israel is blasphemous
Just because they’re a minority does that mean they’re wrong?
This is why people say that disloyal Jews are worse than Nazis
The question is: disloyal to what, or whom ?
As far as Chomsky goes, as liberal/radical as he is, he still believes in Zionism as far as I understand
Just because they’re a minority does that mean they’re wrong?
no, but based upon exhaustive scholarly research, many more jews of all denominations can substantiate that israel, as it exists today, was formed in concordance with the same biblical prophecies these fundamentalists use to discredit the state.
many more jews of all denominations can substantiate that israel, as it exists today, was formed in concordance with the same biblical prophecies these fundamentalists use to discredit the state
true, but let’s be honest – many modern Jews simply disregard the parts of the religion that are a ‘drag’ or don’t fit into their concept of modern Judaism
So they may have simply disregarded the original standard interpretation of the Torah – that there should be no return to Israel until God says so.
NK says on their site: “The founders of Zionism were all atheists who denied the Torah. All the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.” I can’t substantiate what “All the Torah Sages” said but Herzl was secular/atheist, was he not ?
NK continues: “The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach” I don’t read the Talmud, but I would think that’s a pretty cut & dried argument. Either it says that or it doesn’t.
NK also claims: “the number of Orthodox Jews who believe in the anti-Zionist ideology which Neturei Karta is known for, number in the hundreds of thousands”
My understanding is the grand rebbe of the Lubavichers was anti-Zionist.
Maybe they are a minority within Jewry but then of course the orthodox are a minority among Israeli Jews too. My understanding is that the vast majority of Israeli Jews are secular these days.
true, but let’s be honest – many modern Jews simply disregard the parts of the religion that are a ‘drag’ or don’t fit into their concept of modern Judaism
So they may have simply disregarded the original standard interpretation of the Torah – that there should be no return to Israel until God says so.
man, what are you, frum? that’s an orthodox argument if i’ve ever heard one. israel means, quite literally, to struggle with god. “orthodoxies” themselves are antithetical to judaism. they are idols intended to be smashed. our understanding of the torah evolves with us–we don’t abandon torah–we don’t pick and choose–we expand our understanding of it to incorporate progressive ideas we didn’t realize or comprehend in previous generations. our beliefs have thus evolved with our existence. that’s why judaism’s lasted–not because we cling to dogmas, but because we roll with the punches. hence why other religions, such as catholicism, are dying.
you said “I don’t care for Naturei Karta’s theological explanations but I do sometimes agree with their political and logical conclusions,” yet you’re trying to use their heavily disputed theological claims to support your argument.
like i said, NK are the same jews who throw rocks at women whose sleeves are too short. are you really going to take their word for it? you’re accepting a fundamentalist reading of the torah as an accurate one. i hate to break it to ya, but we’ve come much further than that…
The founders of Zionism were all atheists who denied the Torah. All the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.
that’s not true. take, for example, ahad ha-am.
“Ahad Ha‑Am, ‘One of the People’, was the pen‑name of Asher Ginsberg (1856‑1927), Hebrew essayÂist and Zionist thinker. For Ginsberg, ZionÂism was important not only because it sought to provide a physical homeland for the Jewish people but because this homeland had the potential of becoming a spiritual center for world Jewry. Ginsberg saw what he called “absolute spirituality” (ruhani ha‑muhlat) as the very essence of Judaism, which had always set its face against material concepts of the divine.”
beyond that, modern israel is a secular state, not a biblical theocracy–so what’s your point? indeed, zionism was not rooted in biblical claims or prophecy, it was rooted in survival. jewish claims to israel lay in a historical jewish presence in the land, not in biblical myth, albeit religious jews have tried to find scriptural substantiation for zionism after (and during) the fact.
“The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach” I don’t read the Talmud, but I would think that’s a pretty cut & dried argument. Either it says that or it doesn’t.
welp, the torah is the alleged word of god and the talmud is the word of the rabbis. the torah says: “If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the L-rd thy G-d gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee; and the L-rd thy G-d will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.” – Deuteronomy 30:4-5
here’s a dvar contesting the argument made in favor of ketubot 111a… please read: http://www.angelfire.com/my/tgoldman0/anti-zionists.htm
“the number of Orthodox Jews who believe in the anti-Zionist ideology which Neturei Karta is known for, number in the hundreds of thousands”
yeah right. nk probably doesn’t have 1000 names on their mailing list.
My understanding is the grand rebbe of the Lubavichers was anti-Zionist.
yeah, prior to wwii, the previous rebbe was opposed to zionism. his son, the most recent lubavitcher rebbe, took a neutral position, and today the lubavitchers are the foremost hasidic sect in the u.s. and israel.
from chabad.org:
“Chabad-Lubavitch set up a community in the Holy Land as early as 1777. Israel has always been a central concern of Chabad-Lubavitch and its contemporary presence in Israel reflects that vital relationship. Kfar Chabad, home to tens of thousand of Lubavitcher Chassidim, administers an all encompassing network of schools, synagogues, refugee relief centers and vocational training schools. Other major Chabad-Lubavitch communities have also become an integral part of the country’s landscape, making Chabad-Lubavitch a household word throughout the land. Over two hundred outreach centers are devoted to nourishing the spiritual life of Israeli Jewry, a good deal of this activity has recently been directed to the steady influx of immigrant population. A network of hundreds of Chabad-Lubavitch day schools, high schools, yeshivas, synagogues, mikvaot, adult education programs are situated throughout the country. Chabad-Lubavitch’s highly praised work with the Israeli Defense Force has become heartwarming to all.”
beyond that, if you wish to invoke the lubavitcher rebbe, i’d also note that a majority of lubavitch chasidim believe that the rebbe was moshiach (the messiah). if you wish to subscribe to fundamentalism, then we DO belong in israel because moshiach has come.
Maybe they are a minority within Jewry but then of course the orthodox are a minority among Israeli Jews too. My understanding is that the vast majority of Israeli Jews are secular these days.
non-orthodox does not infer non-religious. some of the most religious jews i know are reform and conservative. these people are deemed secular by the establishment, but the reality is that these people go to synagogue regularly, keep kosher, wear kippot, layn teffillin, study torah and talmud, and partake in most of the rituals that orthodox jews believe they have ownership of. therefore, there are just as many, if not more, religious jews than there are non-religious/entirely secular. israeli opposition to religious leadership is against the same sort of extremist fundamentalists you’re quoting now, and kahaneites like the one’s i go after in the post above. clearly, if they were such a small segment of the population, the secular israeli establishment wouldn’t perceive them as the threat they currently do. the theological explainations for the current conflict offered by these fundamentalists are gaining popular support simply for the fact that the actions of islamic militants are reinforcing the delusions and myths perpetuated by these factions.
Only thing I wanted to comment on here is that it is perposterous to say that judaism “rolls with the punches” and that catholicism is “stanch and unchanged and dying”. The majority of judaism has remained unchanged for hundreds of years. In fact, judaism has massive splits in it now, with jews looking down on other jews.
Catholicism has consistantly tried to update itself to the times. For instance, masses are no longer held in Latin, so that everyone may understand what is going on, whereas Hebrew is still used extensivly.
“our understanding of the torah evolves with us–we don’t abandon torah–we don’t pick and choose–we expand our understanding of it to incorporate progressive ideas we didn’t realize or comprehend in previous generations. our beliefs have thus evolved with our existence. that’s why judaism’s lasted–not because we cling to dogmas, but because we roll with the punches. hence why other religions, such as catholicism, are dying. ”
You touch on one of the major issues facing Israeli society and the Jewish people as a whole today – our role in adapting Judaism to modern more progressive principles. I encourage you all to subscribe to the Israel Religious Action Center’s e-newsletter which grapples with this precise issue (usually from a legal standpoint) in Israel. Here’s the link if you’re interested: http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=7waw8j…