Interweb Smack Talk Session
Dave at Israellycool has taken umbrage with my post on Aish HaTorah’s article about “The Spiritual Roots of Anti-Semitism,” and my suggestion that “assimilation being the cause of antisemitism” is a “remanant of a mythology which was created solely with the intent to scare jews into observing torah.” He has thus chosen to publicly chastize me saying that this statement “is not only blatantly false, but is also highly offensive to practioners of the religion,” and that “it is just unfortunate that he has felt the need to rubbish his very own religion.”
My intent was not disparage Orthodox belief as so much as to point out a very troubling double-standard that exists when it comes to Jews discussing the Jewish role in fostering antisemitism.
When a Jew such as George Soros, or let’s jump to an extreme, like Noam Chomsky, says that Jews are in part responsible for antisemitism because of the way they conduct themselves in business affairs, they are deemed a self-hating Jew and publically condemned by the ADL.
But when an Orthodox institution says that Jews are to blame for antisemitism because of assimilation (ie., secular German Jews were to blame for the Holocaust, etc.) it’s not antisemitism, it’s Jewish theology and “how dare you criticize our beliefs.” That in itself is a bigoted assertion and one, I believe, that’s been hotly contested in Rabbinic circles as well.
When that night club got blown up in Tel Aviv last August, one of Israel’s leading Orthodox rabbis said that the people inside had it coming because they weren’t keeping Shabbos. Dave, if you don’t think that statement is equally as offensive as my comments that you find “disparage Judaism and Jewish belief” then you need to wake up to the bigotry inherent in such Orthodox beliefs.
To quote Thomas Paine,
I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).
Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to ‘God’ to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator’s name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).
It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.
You don’t like that line of reasoning? Fine. But don’t call me a self-hating Jew who “has felt the need to rubbish his very own religion” when you “rubbish” your religion by accepting bigoted beliefs that you believe are inherent in its doctrine.
This is 5764, not 3764, and we’ve come much further than that.
Pardon my ignorance, but what episode in the Bible is the Thomas Paine quote you cite approvingly referring to? The only case I can think of that even comes close is the commandment to destroy Amalek, but that one says nothing about debauching and raping the daughters”???
Your main point is well taken, though.
Let’s address the main points that you raised:
1. You claim that “My intent was not to disparage Orthodox belief as so much as to point out a very troubling double-standard that exists when it comes to Jews discussing the Jewish role in fostering antisemitism.” Yet your original post does not accomplish this at all. All it does is clearly imply that Orthodox Jews who believe that anti-Semitism may be G-d’s way of dealing with assimilation are “fundamentalist maniacs.” If you had worded the post less offensively and more to the point you claim you were trying to convey, then perhaps you would not had received so much criticism from me or the others who spoke out.
2. You draw an analogy between what the Aish Hatorah article says about anti-Semitism and a Rabbi saying that people were blown up because they were not keeping the Sabbath. But this analogy is based on the faulty premise that the article was stating that anti-Semitism is a punishment for assimilation. The point of the article was in fact that G-d uses anti-Semitism to prevent assimilation from rendering the Jewish people extinct. Not as a punishment but as a survival mechanism. When assimilation occurs, the Jewish people dwindle in number. So G-d uses anti-Semitism to keep a distance between the Jews and the rest of the world. As the article says “Anti-Semitism keeps the Jewish people from dissipating into oblivion..The concept that God engineers anti-Semitism to ensure the survival of the Jewish people.” You clearly missed the point.
The statement connecting non-observance of the Sabbath with being blown up is indeed highly offensive, and represents a fringe opinion. But you cannot use it as an analogy for the aforementioned reason.
3. You claimed that I called you a “self-hating Jew.” I never said this. I merely stated that you disparaged Judaism by claiming that a widespread belief of the religion is a “remanant of a mythology which was created solely with the intent to scare jews into observing torah.”
4. You in turn accuse me of rubbishing my religion “by accepting bigoted beliefs that you believe are inherent in its doctrine.” Please explain how the belief that G-d helps create conditions in the world to ensure our survival is a bigoted belief.
I respectfully suggest that in the future, you ensure that you truly understand the source you are quoting before you use it to defame the beliefs of others.
“The point of the article was in fact that G-d uses anti-Semitism to prevent assimilation from rendering the Jewish people extinct. Not as a punishment but as a survival mechanism.”
Is there really a difference between the two?
The article states that, “Since assimilation is antithetical to God’s design for the Jewish people, what can God do to keep His promise that the Jews will never become extinct? A cornerstone of Jewish monotheism is the insistence that everything — everything — comes from God, the one and only source. At the same time, He has given human beings free choice in the moral realm. Humans may not be able to choose what happens to them, but they are always choosing between right and wrong, good and evil. So, what if all the Jews in any given generation choose to assimilate into extinction?”
Thus the article asserts that assimilation is “evil” and that it will lead to the “extinction” of Jewish people. I would counter, however, that the reason Judaism has managed to survive is both for its ability to maintain its culture against all odds, and for its ability to assimilate and adapt to the cultures where it is present. Lest we neglect to recognize that Modern Orthodoxy is a form of assimilation too.
“The ubiquitous effort to trace the source of anti-Semitism to the Jews remaining different and aloof — implying that assimilation cures anti-Semitism — is an inversion of the truth. Assimilation is not the antidote to anti-Semitism; anti-Semitism is the Divine antidote to assimilation.”
If that is not the employment of fear, I do not know what is.
“We cannot let anti-Semitism turn into the reason for our being Jewish.” — Dr. Deborah Lipstadt
1. You stated “The point of the article was in fact that G-d uses anti-Semitism to prevent assimilation
from rendering the Jewish people extinct. Not as a punishment but as a survival mechanism.”
Is there really a difference between the two?”
Of course there is, especially when a cornerstone of your argument was the disco-Sabbath analogy, which is rendered flawed by this distinction. Furthermore, many would find it a comforting belief to know that G-d will ensure their survival, as opposed to what you call the “employment of fear.”
2. You stated “Thus the article asserts that assimilation is “evil” and that it will lead to the “extinction” of Jewish people.I would counter, however, that the reason Judaism has managed to survive is both for its ability to maintain its culture against all odds, and for its ability to assimilate and adapt to the cultures where it is present.”
And why has Judaism been able to maintain its culture against all odds? Assume that there was no anti-Semitism and Jews were able to freely mix with everyone. There is no doubt that many Jews would feel so comfortable in the society that they would intermarry, leading to even less Jews and new generations of Jews who know nothing about their culture. Look at history. It is precisely in those societies where Jews were very comfortable and wanted to assimilate that we saw a watering down of the Jewish religion and culture (eg 19th century Germany). In places where Jews were persecuted, such as in turn-of-the-century Russia, we saw ghettos where Jews were true to their religion and culture. They had no option to intermarry.
And yes, countless thousands of Jews have been killed by anti-Semitism, but the religion
has survived because there have always been Jews observing it. But if all Jews were free to intermarry, Judaism would not have survived. So the Jews “ability to maintain its culture against all odds” has been facilitated by anti-Semitism and persecution. It is preposterous to think that our ability to totally assimilate has increased our ability to survive!
3. You stated: “Lest we neglect to recognize that Modern Orthodoxy is a form of assimilation too.”
The Charedim may see it that way, but then again, this is not the assimilation that the Aish HaTorah article is dealing with. It is speaking about assimilation that would lead to the extinction of Jews (intermarriage!) and this is clearly articulated in the article.
4. You stated “Assimilation is not the antidote to anti-Semitism; anti-Semitism is the Divine antidote to assimilation.If that is not the employment of fear, I do not know what is.”
Stating that G-d controls things in the world is the employment of fear? As I have already argued, many would actually be comforted by these sentiments. But in any event, it is the basis of our religion – there is a G-d who controls the world and we are supposed to serve Him. Not only that, but we are actually supposed to “fear” Him on a certain level (in the sense of being in “awe” of Him). Given that you find this belief to be indicative of “fundamentalist maniacs” and a “remnant of a mythology”, how can one not draw the conclusion that you are attacking the religion itself?
5. Your Lipstadt quote (“We cannot let anti-Semitism turn into the reason for our being Jewish.”) supports
the contention that assimilation is a negative thing. Our reason for being Jewish should be positive – that we want to be Jewish and not solely that anti-Semites remind us that we are Jewish. Wanting to be Jewish means that we are proud of who we are, and not trying to assimilate totally into other cultures and hide our Judaism.
So in summary, your counter-arguments attempts to rebut certain points that I made, but do not seem to change the following:
– Your original post attacked Jews who practice their religion and beliefs within the religion itself.
– It was based on a misinterpretation of your original source.
– Your claim that you were making a point about a “troubling double-standard that exists when it comes to Jews discussing the Jewish role in fostering antisemitism” was not supported by the wording
of your post.
Let’s not beat around the bush
anti-Semitism is bigotry
and so is the belief that assimilation is bad
It is precisely in those societies where Jews were very comfortable and wanted to assimilate that we saw a watering down of the Jewish religion and culture (eg 19th century Germany).
see, you just attacked reform judaism (founded in 19th century germany) as a “watering down” of jewish religion and culture; and in the same breath condemn me for “attacking the religion.”
i’m not attacking the religion though; i’m questioning a belief held by a certain sect of the religion.
In places where Jews were persecuted, such as in turn-of-the-century Russia, we saw ghettos where Jews were true to their religion and culture. They had no option to intermarry.
jews clinging to their heritage in russian ghettoes were still victims of pogroms and persecution; their non-assimilation was irrelevant.
And yes, countless thousands of Jews have been killed by anti-Semitism, but the religion has survived because there have always been Jews observing it. But if all Jews were free to intermarry, Judaism would not have survived. So the Jews “ability to maintain its culture against all odds” has been facilitated by anti-Semitism and persecution. It is preposterous to think that our ability to totally assimilate has increased our ability to survive!
i disagree. it takes both “preservers” and “assimilators” in order for “it” to work. jews who assimilate to the culture in which they’re present create a buffer zone for orthodox jews by demonstrating to xenophobes that jews “aren’t all that bad.”
if you want to limit the definition of assimiliation to intermarriage, that’s fine, but that’s not what assimilation is. assimilation is the adoption of certain aspects of the culture in which you are present in order to “fit in.”
if you want to say that that’s destroying judaism, i just want to make you aware of one thing: a secular jew is a secular jew is a secular jew. you act as though at one point in history every jew was a torah keeping jew and they somehow assimilated; and further it appears that you believe non-practicing jews will be the downfall of the jewish people, as though the presence of non-observant jews will lead to high intermarriage rates that will exterminate the jewish people.
but not every jew is or was observant. lest we forget that 5 minutes after the revelation at sinai they were worshipping golden calves. it’s often said that there are more jews practicing judaism and learning torah today than at any other point in history. know what that means to me? most jews aren’t observant. never have, probably never will be. this is all just propaganda.
it’s like i say about the NJPS — more jews studying torah than every before yet somehow our numbers are dwindling and there’s a crisis? know what the crisis is? jewish philanthropies need more money. so they want to scare you into believing we’re becoming extinct so you’ll send more money to them so they can do “kiruv.” uh huh.
R’ Shlomo Carlebach used to talk about the strange manner of Kiruv organizations and Jewish outreach, that they would have huge conventions, bragging about how much they had accomplished, with number of that were so tiny… How they would brag and claim great success over tiny drops in the bucket, while the whole Jewish world was sinking away.
but a different interesting question is raised here. is attacking the bible the same as attacking the religion? because the religion has very different style and methodology than the bible. There’s a reason Yeshivas never, ever teach Tanach, except through the heavy filtration of chazal, as if to say, “oh, that’s not what it’s REALLY about. HERE’s what it’s really about, ethics and sensitivity”
Is it really an attack on reform judaism to call it a watering down of existing judaism? When something’s too heavy, you need to water it down! That’s the halacha of wine.
What happens if all the jews assimilate for lack of anti-semitism? Then the messiah comes!
Jacob and Esau dance together in harmony, and peace takes the world over.
It’s really a selfish gesture, keeping this whole Judaism thing going at the expense of world peace and universal conciousness, but hey: sometimes you have to be slefish to keep your Chailek in Olam Haba.
Incidently, the massacre decreed by Hashem through Moses, not in a Amalekite context but to our cousins the Midianites.
“…they put every male to death… the sons of Israel took the Midianite women captive with their young children, and plundered all their cattle, all their flocks and all their goods. They set fire to the towns where they lived and all their encampments… Then, when they took the captives, spoil and booty to Moses…, Moses was enraged…. ‘why have you spared the life of all the women…? So kill all the male children. Kill also all the women who have slept with a man. Spare the lives only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves”. {Num 31: 7-19}
Chazal learn pshat, that the Midianite women were actually a danger to assimilation, bringing anyone who’d fall in lust with them in to idolatry. So massacring them was completely justified, to preserve the integrity and survival of Am Yisrael as Am Yisrael, so that the teaching of Torah should not vanish before we even get to the promised land.
Jewish continuity somes at some strange terrible price sometimes, ay? but show me an ancient tradition that doesn’t feature holy war as a major premise.
Which is why we stopped prophesy/idolotry, stopped holding by the bas kol, and started using that funky reason and logic stuff that was revealed unto us instead. Less violent, less genocide karma.
Oh please! You are comparing the offensiveness of this: “Never missing an opportunity to make Orthodox Jews look like fundamentalist maniacs…”
and this: “these beliefs are remanants of a mythology which was created solely with the intent to scare jews into observing torah”
to that of this statement of mine: “It is precisely in those societies where Jews were very comfortable and wanted to assimilate that we saw a watering down of the Jewish religion and culture.”
I used no offensive language, nor did I mention any group.I merely stated a historical reality. By definition, less observance of Torah is a watering down of the religion, if you define the religion of Judaism as based on the Torah. If you don’t, then alright then.
I liked this statement of yours: “jews who assimilate to the culture in which they’re present create a buffer zone for orthodox jews by demonstrating to xenophobes that jews “aren’t all that bad.” Interesting anthropolgical observation, but I couldn’t disagree more. Anti-Semites don’t think Jews are “bad” because they observe their religion. They hate all Jews. The assimilated Jews are the ones they come into more contact with, and hence may reinforce their anti-semitic beliefs if they (the Jews) act badly (e,g shady business dealings). But you assuming that the xenephobes’s hatred is based on something tangible. In many case, it is not based on anything other than an irrational hatred of Jews.
You also make the point that “if you want to limit the definition of assimiliation to intermarriage, that’s fine, but that’s not what assimilation is.” Well, as I have already stated, that is what the Aish article was dealing with. So let’s stick to the discussion at hand, and not get sidetracked.
As for this point of yours: “but not every jew is or was observant. lest we forget that 5 minutes after the revelation at sinai they were worshipping golden calves”, you are obviously not aware of the famous explanation that they worshipped the golden calf because they really were trying to be observant but they were lacking their leader. So they tried to create a substitute. It was not a reflection of them trying to assimilate or rebel against the Torah, but rather a misplaced idea as to how to satsify their spiritual cravings.
We can go back and forth all day and night. You will reply and I will always have an answer for you, and vice versa. Just accept the fact that you offended many orthodox Jews with the wording of your post and subsequent comments, and learn from the experience. You don’t always have to be right.
Mobius – your entire argument is predicated on simplistic moralistic snobbery. It is unscholarly, childish, and logically flawed.
I realize that you like to find ways to deride your own religion and co-religionists, but this one wont fly fella.
dave:
The assimilated Jews are the ones they come into more contact with, and hence may reinforce their anti-semitic beliefs if they (the Jews) act badly (e,g shady business dealings).
have you ever been told in a conversation before, “i’ve never met a jew. i thought you people had horns.”
assimilated jews provide an opportunity for non-jews who are familiar with antisemitic rhetoric, but not with jews, to disprove false and antisemitic claims about jewish people.
as for the rest of your arguments, you make valid points; you are correct–i don’t always have to be right; i will cede to your argument; and i apologize for having offended you and anyone else with my eggregious choice of words.
as for dude, go fuck yourself. i don’t seek to deride my religion nor co-religionists. i seek to confront my co-religionists on issues where i think their stance is unjustified, undignified, and morally reprehensible. you have no interest other than “to cut me down to size,” rather than to seek out the diamonds in my coalmine of thought. i don’t need this kind of crap from you.
If you water something down it loses its flavor keep adding water to that wine and see how it good it tastes.
Mobius,
What I said was that your response was moral snobbery and simplistic because it is.
The problem with blaming the victim is far different than what the Torah proposes. The problem with blaming the victim is that it proposes that the victimizer is pure and innocent and had not the victim ‘incited’ or ‘brought on’ the crime, the victimizer would never have been ‘forced’ to do it, and hence, the vicitmizer is innocent.
This is far from what the Torah (or AISH) claims. The Torah holds the vicitmizers of the Jews fully liable for their behavior. Any attempt to blame the Jews for the behavior of our oppressors will find no sanction in the Torah. However, the Torah does say that if we do begin to assimilate that God will remove his protections from us and thus leave us vulnerable to the (natural) hatred that exists out there. It does not in any way ‘blame the victim’ for the acts of the criminal, what it does is remind the victim that there are many evils out there and that if we wish to be protected we need to turn to God, and that if we anger him, he may turn away so that we see why we need Him.
While you may still not agree with this thesis, your offhand derision of it as nonsense deserved the lack of respect that my first post showed. Opening a scholarly debate is one thing, sticking your tongue out is another. Thus, my assessment was that your motivation was to deride the Torah and religion rather than to have a dialogue.