This Is What An Apartheid State Looks Like
The road to Mecca, Saudi Arabia. (c/o Hootinan)
Hey, if you’re gonna criticize Israel for the wall (which I’m with you on) at least be consistent across the board.
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do you criticize israel for having a wall, or the placement of the wall…i am for the wall and criticize the placement..it seems to be working from this side.
its placement in particular; but because of its placement, it forces me to question the motivation behind it altogether. i understand why israel needs a wall–to keep out terrorists; but if that isn’t the authentic reason for it going up, and it’s really in the interest of landgrabbing, then they shouldn’t have one.
Yeah, okay. I’m not gonna defend it; I mean, I’d love to go to Mecca. I would draw a distinction with apartheid, though. Are there huge non-Muslim populations in Saudi Arabia that live in “impoverished ghettos surrounded by exclusively Muslim colonies,” to paraphrase the ecumenical Christians cited below? That’s what people who accuse Israel of edging towards apartheid are talking about; not just the fact that it has some discriminatory policies that favor Jews. That’s the economic basis of the apartheid criticism.
Apartheid is still a horrible metaphor to describe Israel. I’ll remind you all that Israel still controls Gaza and the West Bank because none of the Arabs would take them back in exchange for formal, binding peace treaties. Does this in any way clear Israel of it’s responsibility to provide basic needs for the Palestinians? Of course not. But why should, if Israel has all intentions of giving control of the people and the land to someone else, why should Israel sacrifice her own needs for someone else, especially if that someone wants to destroy Israel?
eek, are you equating the wall to aparthied. how so?
Israel had oil, military air bases, settlements, roads, fun nude beaches and very developped towns in the Sinai. And no less a right winger than Menachem Begin himself presided over the surrender of the Sinai to the Egyptians in exchange for peace. Why then is everyone so skeptical when the Israelis say that the security fence does not represent a border? Sheesh. Furthermore, the apartheid/Israel analogy is totally retarded, unless you like chanting seemingly powerful evocative slogans totally devoid of meaning or authenticity but sure to rile people up. Then the analogy works good. Real good.
When the South African government created the “homelands” for the black population, it did so in order to claim that it no longer had responsibility for them, and that they had places of their own, when in fact their economic opportunities and political sovereignty were still severely constrained by the white state. A lot of people think that Sharon is trying to do something similar, in that he will pull out of Gaza, “giving up” Israeli responsibility for it, while at the same time still basically maintaining total control of its border by sea, its water supply, airspace, economy, etc. If Sharon really WAS planning something of this sort, it’d be a bad idea — after all, the “homelands” were the last stage of apartheid before the black majority took power.
Oh, I should just say that in general, I don’t think political analogies are ever really worthwhile. Each issue should be dealt with on its own, comparing things is rarely helpful. I just did it here because the subject heading invited it; I regret it now and won’t do it again.
Mo, not to nitpick, but, okay, to nitpick ;),
Um… I am pretty sure that the road sign in the pic was designed to separate people going to Mecca during the Hadj and those not wanting to go to the Hadj. I’ve seen the sign in a documentary about the Hadj, and the traffic is so heavy and continuous, that there are several such “offramps” for those not wanting to get stuck in the endless traffic jam to Mecca. The “Moslems Only” – “Non Moslems” is only meant to let people know that in no uncertain terms. I don’t think it’s meant to be taken the way you presume. Granted, once you get into Mecca, if you are a non-Muslim, you aren’t suppossed to be there, but I know a number of people who’ve been there who aren’t Muslim. Which is somewhat disrespectful in a way. It’s not like they ask you 21 questions at the door or something. It’s just that the Hadj gets totally insane, and the road to Mecca is a main through way and for “non-muslems” who don’t want to get stuck in the traffic, there is a different route. Simple.
And, I’ve seen this picture posted elsewhere, with the same misunderstanding.
If you go to Ecuador, you see the same thing at the airports- Ecuadorians take one exit, Columbian’s take another, US and elsewhere take another. It’s just a security and a traffic thing, cause during the rainy season, the traffic gets crazy and they need to separate the different traffic going to the different places.
The doc I saw was on Frontline. It’s probably online still. I watched it last year sometime. I don’t remember the title, but it does discuss how the highway planning around Mecca and the security planning (there are cameras EVERYWHERE) are all meant to allow normal business to flow, tourism for the Hadj to flow, and all that. And, of course, non-devotes aren’t really welcome during Hadj… but, they are there nonetheless. So, the sign is a bit more practical (if pretty overt and boneheaded in it’s directness) than anything…
love the apologists for muslim extremism like snafu, who will fumble on for sentences trying to explain away anti jewish, anti christian exploits of the mulim mullahs. ok snafu, explain why the muslim controlled state in nigeria is banning all christian churches….just a snafu?
Israel is deemed to be an apartheid state because 92% of its surface area is reserved for Jews only, most natives are barred from Palestine altogether and Jews worldwide have the right to “return” to the land they don’t come from whereas Palestinian Arabs may not return to the land they do come from.
mark, another self hating, jews are always evil, wanker. perhaps a little fisking is required: Israel is deemed to be an apartheid stateNOT BY THINKING BEINGS, PERHAPS BY THE SAUDIS WHO PROHIBIT CHRISTAIN AND JEWISH WORSHIP, AND BAR JEWS ALTOGETHER because 92% of its surface area is reserved for Jews onlyREALLY, PLEASE SITE THE LAW, CERTAINLY DOESNT APPLY TO LAND THE KNESSET SITS ON SINCE MUSLIM MPS ARE IN THAT BODY, JUST LIKE JEWS ARE IN THE SAUDI PARLIAMENT, OH SORRY, THERE IS NO SAUDI PARLIAMENT, most natives are barred from Palestine altogetherOF THE 600 TO 800M ARABS WHO FLED IN 48, PERHAPS 50m ARE STILL ALIVE, SINCE MOST CURRENT ISRAELIS WERE BORN IN ISRAEL, HOW IS 50m MOST OF SEVERAL MILLION and Jews worldwide have the right to “return” to the land they don’t come from IF WE ARE TALKING HISTORICALLY JEWS DO ALL COME FROM ISRAELwhereas Palestinian Arabs may not return to the land they do come fromHISTORICALLY MOST OF THE “PALESTINIAN ARABS ANCESTORS COME FROM OUTSIDE HISTORICAL PALESTINE, EGYPT,SYRIA ETC. (ARAFAT IS AN EGYPTIAN), SO PALESTINE IS NOT THEIR HISTORICAL HOMELAND. nice work mark, not a single truth in your entire post, you would have made rober fisk proud.
Avi, don’t be a putz. You are excellent at reading great anti-semitisim into what I posted, and labeling it “apologist” when it is nothing of the sort. I specifically did not mention any of the issues YOU mention for that very reason. I’m well aware and appalled by the Saudi state. But, I’m also aware that sometime inocuous issues (such as highway signs meant to separate those going to Hadj and those NOT going to Hadj) are used for the wrong reasons.
Yes, it’s symobolic of all the wrongs that exsist in the Saudi apartheid state. But, it’s more of an example of ignorance that, say, the signs the once designated “Jews” go to the left(death camp) and “Aryans/German’s” whatever go to the right. And, that’s the comparison that is being made, when you get right down to it.
As a matter of fact, if you drive through Iowa, near Amana, which is an Amish community, you will see highway signs that say “Amish” to the rigth and “English” to the left. They are meant to keep the buggies to the right, the cars to the left.
Is there separatism behind such signs. Certainly, to an extent.
But, how you go from that to my being an “apologist” is just plain pathetic on your part.
And, also, please prove it, please site the exact sentance and proof in my post above which is apologist. Keep in mind, that I am simply pointing out a traffic situation. I’ve no love of nor respect for the Saudi state. Please, enlighten me as to how my explaining that traffic signs actually serve a function (while also having a certain symbolic double meaning) is apologist.
You don’t know what the fuck you are talking about Avi.
Avi, please explain what Nigerian religous fascism has to do with traffic signs in Saudi Arabia.
Deal with this for a minute. It’s entirely possible for some people, like my self, to have contempt for a fascist state such as Saudi Arabia, understand it’s racist established system, and at the same time, understand how certain practical matters, like traffic signs, can exist without being entirely (although reflective of) that particular racist state.
As stated above, Frontline did a doc on the Hadj. It’s attended by millions of people. An area that has a population of a few million swells to twenty times that during the Hadj. The highways become nearly impassible. Traffic jams last for days and at times, people simply abandon their cars and walk to the Hadj.
The Hadj is by religious belief off limits to non-Muslims. Is that apartheid? Sure. Of course it is. But, it’s also something that is practiced all over the world. By Christians, Muslims and Jews.
And, signs are often reflective of such policies, but they also serve a purpose.
Now, if the purpose of the signs in the picture in question were linked to something agregious or such, then I’d say that posting the pic is a decent example of the Saudi fascist world. But, it’s not. The purpose of the sign is to separate Muslims and non-Muslims during the Hadj.
What we have here is simple dogpiling on a picture which is taken completely out of context.
This is the kind of crap that I’d expect at Free Republic, not on Jewschool.
Your response is straight from FR as well.
Congrats.
snaf, i understand your point re: the traffic, but i mean, this type of shit is present throughout saudi society.
jews don’t bar non-jews from attending jewish religious services. jews don’t deny entry to israel based on ethnicity or religious affiliation (tho they do, regretably deny citizenship). and my whole point has less to do w/saudi arabia’s form of apartheid than it does with being consistent in vocally condemning and protesting the state of human rights within that region and in islamic culture as a whole.
if i wish to attain anything for the “left,” it’s consistency in the application of that position, because until they really come out unilaterally opposed to all forms of racism, repression, etc. and with the same ferocity with which they attack the israeli government, they’ll continue to be marginalized by the mainstream and the right.
what can i say? for once i agree with moby.
Thanks for discussing mideast politics with some moderation and intelligence. I have almost never seen a web site use some restraint. I hate the rabidness over at Little Green Footballs. Thanks again. We need to all use our brains, not our passion to move forward on this.
While Evan takes the high road, I’ll take the low road….
Mark Elf and avi green deserve each other. Fellas, get a room.
…on the real Zionista
Mo agreed. Absolutely. My point is that if you are going to cite the pic as an example of Saudi apartheid, you have to include the proper context. That’s all. If you are going to mount an attack on such a system, you need to have all the facts lined up. Context is really important. I’ve seen this picture on the internet for over a year, at least. And, it’s ALWAYS out of context. Sure, it’s a great symbol of the Saudi apartheid structure, and on a practical level, a real example of how entrenched that system is, it’s in the damn road signs! But, if one is going to cite it as propaganda against the Saudi state and system, one is bound to include it’s proper context and explanation, even if that context affects the anti-Saudi propaganda in a negative way. (Peronally, I don’t think it does. I think the context makes it more obvious how pathetic and entrenched the Saudi system is with racism.)
Finding the truth means that such context is really really important. That was my only point.
All this bullshit about “apologizing” for the Saudi’s is nonsense and a diversion by those who can’t see past the propaganda or the anger.
See the Forest for the Trees people…
Mo wrote: if i wish to attain anything for the “left,” it’s consistency in the application of that position, because until they really come out unilaterally opposed to all forms of racism, repression, etc. and with the same ferocity with which they attack the israeli government, they’ll continue to be marginalized by the mainstream and the right.
Come on Mo. You are empowering other people over your own ability. “The left”? Unified? Against anything? What planet are you living on? 😉 The Israeli government is attacked because it’s a target. If they were the most benevolent government on Earth, there would still be those who would attack them. Amd. what you cite, not only will never happen, it’s beside the point. Unilateral postions are necessary. The truth isn’t black and white, right or left. The left is wrong on some issues, the right is wrong, the right is correct, the left is correct.
The solutions lay in the ability to see the truth and fucntion on a level of reality that allows for the continuance and establishment of a humane condition for all. And, in order to do that, you have to find the truth.
And, I don’t know much, but I do know this: Governments, ALL governments, function on a tacit level of deception in order to survive. It’s the primary motive of politics and financial sourcing. Deception.
So, allowing for a certain group to align themselves or admit some kind of consistancy is essentially waiting for Godot…
It’s one of the many issues we have to deal with… how to get out of the rut.
That should be “unilateral positions AREN’T necessary” up there… duh.
And, Mo, for what it’s worth… The inconsistency of the “left”, at least the organized “left”, one of the main reasons I felt I had to extract myself from the ranks around ten years ago. Inconsistancy of message, hypocrisy, etc. And, I really thought it might change. But, now, there is simply too much going on, the propaganda it too harsh. By it’s nature the “left” has always been fragmented. You’ve got peaceful leftists and violent leftists, anarchists and non-anarchists, you know the deal. And, the past decade has seen the launching of a well funded and well orchestrated attack upon the “liberals”. It’s a non-specific, never ending mantra of “the liberals are evil”. And, it’s thrown the entire organized left into complete dissarry in many quarters, in regards to being able to sound off on a cohesive, unifying and positive message.
My thing is, I feel the left needs to embrace it’s diversity as it’s strength, and present it as a unified and positive solution based option.
But, mostly, the “lberal establishement” is concerned with being a carbon copy of the GOP.
Anyway, the best way to function is to do what you are doing. Don’t worry about the “left” or the “right”.
Eventually, all of them will catch up with us…
I hope… 😉
Masked Palestinian militants, members of the Popular Resistance Committees, pray with their Rocket Propelled Grenade (RPG) launchers next to them in the southern Gaza Strip refugee camp of Rafah, during a rally in support of the attack at the Kissufim crossing between Gaza and Israel yesterday, in which a 34-year-old Israeli settler and her four children were killed.(AFP/Said Khatib)
Thats what the wall is for, try to understand it. Your fighting against animals (I am not saying all Palistinians) but the ones your are fighting are animals. The wall is an easy solution.
raiders–tho i’m not a fan of borders, nor fences, in the instance of defending one’s self from one’s attackers, yes–i can understand the necessity of the wall.
however, that the wall cuts through private property and does not follow the green line demonstrates that the wall is built less in the interest of security and more in the interest of imposing further punishment on the palestinians, as well as the further potential acquisiton of their land.
thus, i can not defend the wall.
The differentiation as to which road Muslims and non-Muslims are directed to reminds me of the selection process for the nazi gas chambers.
Golem, amen to that mate. I think there could have been a bit more care taken in erecting the wall, but I do believe it is a necessity for the protection of Israeli citizens.