Culture, Global, Israel, Politics

Sharon Betrays Israel’s Founders

Henry Siegman – a senior fellow on the Middle East at the Council on Foreign Relations and a former head of the American Jewish Congress and of the Synagogue Council of America, argues in the International Herald Tribune that Sharon has betrayed Israel’s founders, and even drops the Apartheid bomb. Hot stuff! Personally I don’t know if Sharon is betraying Israel’s founders, or being completely faithful to their innermost desires. I guess it depends – to which founders does he refer? Hertzl, Chaim Wiezmann, David Ben Gurion, or Jabotinsky?

Full story.

23 thoughts on “Sharon Betrays Israel’s Founders

  1. “…even drops the Apartheid bomb. Hot stuff!”
    JB,
    I can’t help but wonder about psycho-pathology of Jews who spend their time and energy focusing on the negative/critical reactions to Judaism/Israel. I listen to Chomsky or Finkelstein talk about Israel…Judaism and I think: “Damn, that’s not the sort of thing I experience in shuls, Israel, etc”. So what’s up with all the bile dude?

  2. JB,
    Some thoughts from your boy Siegman:
    He calls the Palestinian struggle for a state “the mirror image of the Zionist movement” that led to the creation in 1948 of Israel.
    ** The mirror image? Really? European Jews experience the Holocaust, Pogroms, etc. Sephardic Jews the expulsion. And the Palestinians?
    “This does not excuse suicide bombings,” he said, “but the way Israel deals with these outrages is suspect as long as they are exploited to extend the occupation and enlarge Israeli settlements.”
    ** So in other words, Israel’s indirectly, perhaps directly, responsible for
    Islamic radicals blowing themselves up in cafes.
    And the difference between Siegman, Chomsky, Finkelstein….is what exactly?

  3. Meh — is it just me, or does friend Siegman’s, er, Hot stuff! amount to his impressive ability to bring to the table what everyone was saying about six months ago? You’ve got love his Top Google hits — there’s his
    incisive interview with Arafat, and of course his off-the-record remarks for the Arab Bankers Association of North America, who, given their clear lack of ties to anything, you know, distasteful, are obviously known for their progressive speakers’ list and eagerness for airing dissent.
    Don’t get me wrong. The world needs its token Jews. Still, I’m a bit disappointed: when Brown Babylonian italicised the Apartheid bomb, I was naive enough to think he’d come across everyone’s favourite race bomb story. Nazis in the mouths of tokens! Turns out Brown Babylonian only really meant to italicise the apartheid portion: no ethnobombs for Seidman.
    Oh well.

  4. shtreimel wrote:
    I can’t help but wonder about psycho-pathology of Jews who spend their time and energy focusing on the negative/critical reactions to Judaism/Israel. I listen to Chomsky or Finkelstein talk about Israel…Judaism and I think: “Damn, that’s not the sort of thing I experience in shuls, Israel, etc”. So what’s up with all the bile dude?
    What bile?
    I don’t know what Chomsky or Finkelstein have to do with this essay. That seems like a non-sequitur.
    I don’t think Seigman is being critical of Judaism or Israel in this essay – only right wing policies, and Sharon specifically.
    I’m not sure what Sharon’s politics have to do with what you experience in shuls. That seems like a totally separate and personal issue with little or no relevance to these political questions.
    shreimel continued:
    Some thoughts from your boy Siegman:
    He calls the Palestinian struggle for a state “the mirror image of the Zionist movement” that led to the creation in 1948 of Israel.
    ** The mirror image? Really? European Jews experience the Holocaust, Pogroms, etc. Sephardic Jews the expulsion. And the Palestinians?

    You almost make it sound like the Holocaust caused the Zionist movement. But of course the Zionist movement was already well underway for 60+ years by the beginning of the 2nd world war.
    The Holocaust is often used as the final argument in favor of Zionism, but is this connection justified? There are several aspects to consider in answering that question honestly. First, we will examine the historical record of what the Zionist movement actually did to help save European Jewry from the Nazis.
    from Zionism and the Holocaust
    I’m not sure how someone could deny that the actions of the Zionist movement as led by the Ashkenazim was the direct cause of the expulsion of the Sephardim. Were it not for partition and the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948 the Sephardim would undoubtedly still be living in Arab countries today.
    The Palestinians, like many of the Sephardim, experienced expulsion and loss of their homes and livlihood in 1948. And after that 50+ years of often brutal occupation, countless deaths, destruction of homes, farms. Before that they spent centuries living under brutal occupation by the Turks, and before that, Arab invaders.
    And how does any of this refute Seigman’s claim that the Palestinian liberation movement is a mirror of the Zionist movement?
    In any case I didn’t post his essay because I agree with every word Seigman has ever said. I think it’s an interesting essay however, and food for thought – especially considering Seigman’s background.
    shreimel continued:
    “And the difference between Siegman, Chomsky, Finkelstein….is what exactly?”
    Aside from them being different people who have distinct opinions, maybe you should read Siegman’s bio again ?

  5. HOT STUFF???
    You guys have it wrong. It’s not bile, anger; it’s tittilation. Brown is turned on by the “apartheid bomb”. The eroticization of horror is common to many nihilistic mass murder movements and I believe John Brown’s pathology is best understood by examining the extent to which he appears aroused by Arab-Israeli violence. His obsession in nothing more than a kinky fetish, although one that has most likely ceased to grant him genuine pleasure. This is the nature of extremism; expect him to become more and more perverse as he struggles with his illness.

  6. that’s a pretty sick thing to say Jonny, but that’s your right
    I simply think it’s remarkable that a Jewish religious leader would join the ranks of such revered Human Rights leaders as Bishop Tutu and Nelson Mandela in comparing the situation in the occupied territories to Apartheid

  7. ” The mirror image? Really? European Jews experience the Holocaust, Pogroms, etc. Sephardic Jews the expulsion. And the Palestinians?”
    The ZIonist movement was active from the 19th century – the holocaust was a an historical turning point of this movement, but came after it was already established and well based.
    i didnt know national movements were qualified by suffering. anyhow we all know how to play that game all too well. do u really want to go into this?

  8. JB:
    “I simply think it’s remarkable…”
    You “simply” make it your routine to point out what you find tittilating without making any substantive effort to provide analysis. This is why you are “simply” a peddler of smut. You have absolutely nothing to say. You have none of your own opinions. You merely deal in pornographic images; John Brown’s “Hot Stuff”: “Hey guys, look at what I found on the internet to jerk-off to today!”
    “that’s a pretty sick thing to say Jonny”
    Yeah, it’s utterly disgusting.

  9. What’s disgusting is the attribution of pathology to an ideological opponent in order to explain the moral and political beliefs of that opponent.

  10. Just curious … do any of our invective-spewing right wing friends have the balls to directly address what Siegman wrote in this article in the IHT ?
    thanks

  11. “i didnt know national movements were qualified by suffering. anyhow we all know how to play that game all too well. do u really want to go into this?”
    you’re in america, homeboy. those american colonists called for independence because they were suffering under the british. and with the genocide of native americans, it’s pointless to be critical of this country’s founding because its here. The only people who still have gripes are the last survivin natives, the kkk, and the radical left.
    the redcoats are coming, mufuckaa.

  12. “i didnt know national movements were qualified by suffering”
    qualified. thats the key word. jonny was trying to make a point about how much the jews suffered in the holocaust while the palestinians didnt. i hope you know better than that – that the zionist movement developed before the holocaust (true, it wouldnt have got much of its goals without it). the palestinian movement isnt less legitimate because it didnt have a genocide.

  13. JB,
    I pointed out my problem with the article as well as your posts. You replied to my post with the semantic/word play game. Again, people/nations/person who spend all their time being self-critical are often, not always, self-loathing. And judging by the majority of your posts on this site, you seem to fit the description quite nicely.

  14. I simply think it’s remarkable that a Jewish religious leader would join the ranks of such revered Human Rights leaders as Bishop Tutu and Nelson Mandela in comparing the situation in the occupied territories to Apartheid
    You’re incorrect on both counts.
    On one hand, Siegman is not a religious leader. (Clue, Brown Babylonian: many male religious leaders wear skullcaps.)
    On the other hand, Siegman does not analogise “the situation in the occupied territories to Apartheid.” He describes Sharon’s vision of an arrangement of disconnected and isolated cantons as a Palestinian state as apartheid. (Clue, Brown Babylonian: if you want to use “apartheid” as a general term rather than a reference to historically specific situation in South Africa, you should avoid capitalising it.)
    I’m not sure how someone could deny that the actions of the Zionist movement as led by the Ashkenazim was the direct cause of the expulsion of the Sephardim.
    Er, one would do so by pointing out that racist measures which led to the expulsion or flight of many Mizrahim were the direct result of a pan-Arab nationalist movement, and that said pan-Arab nationalism denied Jews any right to exist as a distinct community.
    But, then, don’t take my word for it. Ask the Kurds, Copts, Circassians, Assyrians, or any other Middle Eastern minority who dared identify themselves as something other than Arabs.
    To say nothing of the fundamental illegitimacy of persecuting ethnic minorities connected to national liberation struggles in other places. Not that you disagreed with that fundamental illegitimacy, obviously. Still, don’t let me distract you from the Zionism as the root of all evils thing. Maybe we should get back to how they killed Kenn(ed)y…
    do any of our invective-spewing right wing friends have the balls to directly address what Siegman wrote in this article in the IHT ?
    It’s hard to tell what right-wing means in this context — though those who try and rationalise racist expulsions (I think you usually call this “ethnic cleansing”, Brown Babylonian, no?) are surely fairly high on any such list.
    But if you’re asking for what people think about the idea that Sharon’s vision of the State of Israel seems to include West Bank: er, we’ve been that through that a million times before. Most of us seem to think it,s not a very good idea.
    Suggestion: if you want to stimulate fresh debate, post fresh ideas.

  15. (true, it wouldnt have got much of its goals without it) I dunno — the Balfour Declaration wasn’t nothing. More generally, there seemed to be some kind of agreement among many European politicians (aka the puppetmasters) that Jews had some kind of rights.
    the palestinian movement isnt less legitimate because it didnt have a genocide. Indeed.
    Oh, Brown Babylonian? You were begging for someone to address Seigman’s claim that the Palestinian liberation movement is a mirror of the Zionist movement. To restate the obvious, yet again: mirrors are as mirrors do. It’s obviously not identical. On the other hand, it’s obviously legitimate.
    Most of us support the Palestinian right to self-determination. Many try and marginalise that support by portraying any such support as conditional on the destruction of the Jewish right to same.
    That marginalisation isn’t going to work any more.

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