Remember
27000 Palestinians and 6500 Israelis were injured since September 2000. Below are statistics of casualties of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Fatalities in the al-Aqsa Intifada,: 29 Sept. 2000 – 12 July 2004 (from www.btselem.org)
In the occupied territories:
2,683 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories, of whom 533 were minors under the age of 18. Ages of the minors killed: One hundred and one minors were age 17, one hundred and eight were age 16, seventy five were age 15, seventy three were age 14, forty seven were age 13, twenty seven age 12, eighteen were age 11, twenty one were age 10, eleven were age 9, ten were age 8, eight were age 7, seven were age 6, three were age 5, six were age 4, five were age 3, six were two years old, four were one year old babies, one was an 11 month old baby girl, one was a 6 month old baby girl and one was a four month old baby girl.
At least 149 of the Palestinians killed were extrajudicially executed by Israel… In the course of these assasinations 100 additional Palestinians were killed, 90 of them minors.
32 Palestinians were killed by Israeli civilians, including Three minors: One was age 17, One was age 14 and One was a Two month- old baby girl. Ten foreign Citizens were killed by Israeli security forces gunfire.
207 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians, 34 of them were minors under the age of 18: Six were aged 17, five were age 16, seven were age 14, two were age 13, two was age 11, two was age 9, one was age 7, three were age 5, one was two years old, one was a 10 month-old baby girl, one was a 7 month-old baby girl, one was an 8 month-old baby girl, one was a 5 month-old baby boy and one was a one day old baby boy.
Seven foreign citizens were killed by Palestinians. 201 members of the Israeli security forces were killed by Palestinians. 89 Palestinians were killed by Palestinian civilians on suspicion of collaborating with Israel. 18 of them were killed while held in the custody of the Palestinian security forces. 29 Palestinian were killed by members of the Palestinian security forces. 9 of them were killed while held in the custody of the Palestinian security forces.
Three Palestinians were killed by gunfire by Palestinians who opened fire at Israeli civilians. Two members of the Palestinian security forces were killed by Palestinians who attempted to kill IDF soldiers. One Palestinian civilian was killed by gunfire when IDF soldiers forced him to serve as their human shield.
Within Israel:
49 Palestinians, residents of the Occupied Territories, were killed by Israeli security forces gunfire. One of those killed was a minor aged 14.
408 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians, residents of the Occupied Territories. 75 of them were minors under the age of 18. Of them: Twelve were age 17, thirteen were age 16, fourteen were age 15, six were age 14, four were age 13, three were age 12, two were age 11, one was age 10, two were age 9, two were age 8, two were age 7, one was age 5, three were age 4, three were age 3, one was a two years old baby, one was an eighteen month old baby, one was a 14 month old baby, one was a one year old baby, one was an eleven month old baby, one was a nine month old baby, and one was a seven month old baby.
3 Israeli civilians were killed by foreign citizens. 33 foreign citizens were killed by Palestinians. Two of them were minors: One of them – 16 years old and the other – Five months old. 83 members of the Israeli security forces were killed by Palestinians, residents of the Occupied Territories.
Tehe’ Nishmatam Tzrura Bitzror Hachayim.
What’s are the “occupied territories”? Whose land is it? What country is it? Is it Egypt and Jordanian land?
These statistics are specifically without context. Shooting someone hiding behind a child is counts the same as looking at a child in a sniperscope and placing a bullet in her head.
These stats do nothing to increase positive discussions for a solution. It’s just to demonize the side with more kills.
And it doesn’t mention when the “minors” that were killed were throwing fire-bombs or large concrete blocks.
Seen “Death in Gaza”? it was on HBO – good documentary about youth recruitment for Hamas in Rafah – done by an Anglo British and an Arab Brit.
You should have included the note, just below the section you copied:
“B’Tselem emphasizes that the inclusion of a person’s name in our lists does not mean that the death resulted from a human rights violation or that the deceased did not him/herself violate the rights of others.”
For example, the list above mentions 32 Palestinian killed by Israeli civilians. B’Tselem has a list with details of the deaths (I’ll assume it’s accurate, at least for the discussion). While some of the deaths are incontrovertably murders, at least 12 of them were killed while comitting an attack against Israelis (there’s another one where it’s listed as unclear if he was attacking, and some of the others have little information beyond the fact of death).
The list can be found at http://tinylink.com/?wbOL1HgKIx
what are the effects of all these deaths on children growing up in the west bank?
some researchers completed a study to find out:
http://tinylink.com/?fB9CIPCkRI
the study’s conclusions?
“The prevalence of psychological morbidity among Palestinian children in the West Bank was significantly higher, relative to the level of psychological morbidity determined independently for children in Gaza during 2000. We predict that these rates will have increased substantially owing to the escalated violence that began in this region 2 months after we conducted our study. We further predict that children in Israeli settlements in the West Bank will also exhibit elevated levels of psychological morbidity, relative to their counterparts in Israel.”
so many deaths will take a long time to heal from. as my mother says, it’s usually pretty easy to die (as soon as you die, your suffering ends). it’s so much harder for the people left behind.
Since this discussion has turned to Palestinian youth violence, I’ve compiled these articles that address the issue (with various degrees of bias and/or depth)
http://tinylink.com/?lpvD2T1Adb
http://tinylink.com/?oOnl1p7xLb
http://tinylink.com/?qQzHtqq1Pv
http://tinylink.com/?WWEQ6vnhfK
Moishe’s statistics really irk me (see my earlier post on IDF responsibility and the subsequent discussion). We can all agree that death and killing is bad. However, this is a nuanced conflict– disregarding the subtleties of IDF and Palestinian actions is to give them moral equivalence, or worse to condemn Israel because it has killed more Palestinians than they have killed Israelis. There is no moral equivalence between terrorism and the offensives designed to thwart terrorists– Israel has generally maintained its place on the moral high road with regards to its engagement in the conflict.
its amazing how everyone was so horrified of exploitation of palestinian minors BY palestinians. if israel cares so much, why doesnt it act accordingly? 533 dont come for nothing.
I think the view of the conflict as “terrorism-response-to-terrorism” is missing something pretty essential, which is the fact that the occupation and settlements are wrong. I mean, I’m not going to say “there’s no moral equivalence between violence aimed at liberating a naiton and violence aimed at suppressing one”, because I don’t think the nature of terrorist violence is such that it should be counted as a legitimate tactic in a liberatory war. But to say that Israel is *simply* responding to terrorism, that it has maintained the moral high ground, just seems laughable to me.
I don’t think I quite understand your remark Asaf…It seems all of humanity should be outraged that a small number of Palestinian guerillas coopt their communities religious convictions in order to recruit boys to carry out a mission that will not only guarentee suicide but murder bystanding Arabs and Jews. There is no practice by the IDF that even hints at child recruitment, suicide, and murder.
Unless of course you argue that israeli “militarism” and the spirit of the IDF being a part of growing up in Israel is just as bad as Hamas.
Not to mention your beginning stastistic about injuries. I guess the Palestinians blame Israeli aggression when they drop a bullet shell on their toe and it leaves a mark.
Ho hum,
I’m happy that someone is keeping score. Thanks to betzelem and Asaf we can all update the boxscores.
Asaf,
could we get a breakdown in location(in battlezone or unconnected civilian area) or is that not important either?
I don’t think the nature of terrorist violence is such that it should be counted as a legitimate tactic in a liberatory war. But to say that Israel is *simply* responding to terrorism, that it has maintained the moral high ground, just seems laughable to me.
You’re in luck, then: noone’s said it.
There are, of course, some who argue that it shouldn’t be allowed to condemn Palestinian terrorism without talking about the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
Similarly, there are others who argue that it shouldn’t be allowed to criticise the Israeli government without talking about all the other conflicts going on in the world.
Feh.
all i did is list the dead from both sides with the title “remember”. why is everyone so defensive 🙂
“could we get a breakdown in location(in battlezone or unconnected civilian area) or is that not important either?”
a lot of things are important. here is a break down of injuries if it interests anybody: http://www.palestinercs.org/crisistables/table_of_figures.htm
Fuck the score. These tallies remind us of the cost of this conflict.
Thank you, Asaf.
Yes the conflict is costly, and hopefully the pain and suffering on both sides will motivate each towards peace.
Having said that, though, Asaf, 533 does come from somewhere, and that place is NOT an IDF sponsored child-kiling campaign. That is what you are insinuating (even though you won’t do more than drop hints), and it’s total bullshit. If you want Israel to do something about it, guess what, it is– by trying to put a stop the terrorists/militants all together.
Sam: Israel HAS retained the moral highground. In 2000, Barak offered the Palestinians an evacuation of many settlements but was turned down. Sharon is attempting to leave some anyway. Many people recognize that the settlements are bad for Israel and for the Palestinians. But to compare the “terrorism” of the settlements to the terror of blowing up busses is assinine. Impeding a life and ending one are vastly different moral territories.
“Having said that, though, Asaf, 533 does come from somewhere, and that place is NOT an IDF sponsored child-kiling campaign. That is what you are insinuating (even though you won’t do more than drop hints), and it’s total bullshit. ”
hey there! i never hinted to ANYTHING like that. i dont think the idf is on any child-killing campaign, but i think the army has no responsibility in the order it gives to soldiers. a lot of times orders are given in a local manor because higher authority in the army does not want to take responsibility to any order restraining shooting or opposite.
for instance i friend of mine told me how her boyfriend got an order to shoot anyone he thinks is armed. thats an illegal order by israeli army standards but it was still given. no one is taking responsibility for the hundreds civilians dying for no reason. 100 dead people from targered assasinations are unexcusable.
Well thanks for clarifying that Asaf…
Naturally, the higher ranks can’t give front-line orders, because that would put troops in indefensable positions. If there are commanders giving illegal orders, that’s another problem, and as my earlier post pointed out– many investigations are under way (I hope that’s a good start at least).
How is it inexcusable? it’s certainly unfortunate, but I think the IDF has shown a great deal of effort in minimizing collateral damage with its pinpoint attacks on terrorists. Israel does not have much wiggle room when it comes to attacking terrorists– leaving them be would be endangering too many Israeli lives. And Israel’s first responsibility is to the security of its citizens.
asaf, to bad you really dont know what goes on in the israel army and have to quote others – all because you fled israel so you wouldnt have to serve your country. perhaps had you sayed in israel and entered the army, the army would better reflect you moral code (actually, maybe its good you did desert, better youre not on the field of war at all than you turn and run at the first hostile bullet).
avi green is perfecting the art of ad hominem attacks. dont bore us with you BS please. if the act of criticism requires participation in the criticized action itself, then we are all for big trouble.
A large number of soldiers saying “I was given illegal orders” would go a lot farther in convincing me that the IDF has some sort of institutionalized lax morality than your context-lacking statistics.
Asaf, I think you do serve your country by trying to improve it through discourse. But I also believe that, in Israel, you need to have served in the IDF to have your political views taken seriously by the mainstream. So I’m not sure how much weight your efforts will carry there.
I suspect part of the problem, both with orders and the IDF’s investigations, are a backlash to the period from about the end of the first Intifada to the beginning of the second one, and the IDF’s experiences in Lebanon. Since (and during, at least to some extent) the first Intifada, rules of engagement were extremely restrictive*. This was coupled with an increasing legalisation of the military investigative processes. Too many incidents were subject to criminal investigations, to the point were it was said, only half-jokingly, that no platoon commander could go into the field without a lawyer. The drawbacks should be obvious – low-level commander’s initiative was crippled (and in regards to Asaf’s point about lack of high-level orders, a critical part of IDF doctrine is to give low-level commanders a lot of initiative), and soldiers felt that, if they were involved in an incident, their commanders would not back them up (when I was in regular service in the mid-90s, my father told me about someon – and I’ve occasionally wondered if he was hinting womething to me – that told his son “if you feel you’re in danger, shoot – I’d rather have you in prison than dead”. The assumption was almost any shooting would land you behind bars, with little regard to circumstances). In addition, the IDF would have a problem with deriving lessons from incidents, because people were afraid to incriminate themselves by being too honest. Part of the response was to establish a parallel investigative track for incidents, where what was said would not be used in any criminal investigation. Unfortunately, this system may have swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction – besides the fact it was established in a time of less conflict, and seems to have trouble coping with the current pace of events.
*The peak was probably during the 1996 Tunnel Riots, where Israeli troops – while under heavy fire – were told not to shoot back, in numerous incidents; they were apparently hoping the Palestinians would spontenously calm down or something.
“and in regards to Asaf’s point about lack of high-level orders, a critical part of IDF doctrine is to give low-level commanders a lot of initiative)”
initiative is one thing – no clear understanding of when you’re allowed to shoot is another. generals do not want to take any responsibility. there was a demonstration of soldiers on the issue. here is my post on the topic: http://www.jewschool.com/2004/08/not-me-said-general.php
Asaf,
I had assumed that draft-dodging part about you but now it’s confirmed.
I also think that had you served in the army ( I don’t suppose that it’s too late?), you’d be a bit more credible than JBrown, and actually know what goes on in uniform rather than talk like an outsider. My two years weren’t only filled with ‘yes, sir’ ‘no sir’ and shooting at people, it was also about meeting, serving, and working side-by-side with Israeli kids from all over the country, from every social strata, from every ethnic background, colour and without much of the prejudice which is prevelant in the school yard or learnt from parents and the media.
Another thing is like I tell friends who I learn didn’t bother to vote in elections – ‘Pipe down, you have no credible voice’.
josh,
i never knew that in order to be credible i need to serve in the army. in fact i think it is rediculous to try and create an heirarchal system of values for arguments based on service in the army. does it go by ranks? do i have to be combat unit? do i actually need to be in the occupied territories? and if i am only a cook? or a woman, who cant serve as combat soldier? am i out of the political game?
you are echoing the militarism that is that has plagued israeli politics.
“Another thing is like I tell friends who I learn didn’t bother to vote in elections – ‘Pipe down, you have no credible voice’.”
that analogy is fauled in about any angle you look at it so i wont bother arguing with it.
just recognize that fact that credibility based on military service makes arab citizens and women much less “credible”. thus your militaristic political heirarchy is divorced of reality and chauvinist.
why do i think asaf supports kerry over bush? and why does kerry constantly point to his military record v. bush’s to claim competeny over that of bush’s? so asaf, i am making another ad hominem “specific to you as a person” attack on YOU. you left your people in a time of need; you deserted your country and your people by coming to america insead of staying in israel and serving in her armed services. what expertise are you bringing to the table? your arguments are repetitious, you provide no facts based on first hand knowledge. and your pureile fatuous leftism is reflected in every uneducated unsophisticated leftist who posts here. other than showing us the heart and soul of a deserter, you are serving no purpose. since we already have vanunu and (adam) shapiro speaking for traitorous (ex) jews, we really dont need you also.
“why do i think asaf supports kerry over bush? and why does kerry constantly point to his military record v. bush’s to claim competeny over that of bush’s? so asaf, i am making another ad hominem “specific to you as a person” attack on YOU.”
so – if kerry prefers stela beer while bush likes pilsner beer, do i have to like bass beer? i dont give a shit about kerry’s military history. i prefer pilsner.
“what expertise are you bringing to the table? your arguments are repetitious, you provide no facts based on first hand knowledge. and your pureile fatuous leftism is reflected in every uneducated unsophisticated leftist who posts here.”
YOU’re the one who always attacks me for deserting israel, trying to deligitimize my views that way. if my views are that uninteresting an repetative, i’d expect u let them speak for themselves and not respond to every single post of mine (well, in fact of anyone not holding your opinion on this website) with a bunch of not very creative adjectives.
Personal invective is not really appropriate in a community forum, and doesn’t further the argument. Asaf is entitled to his opinions, annoying as they may be, and regardless of his lack of military service.
By the way, there are women (experimental) combat units, and there has been an Israeli Arab member of the cabinet. I think Israelis, though still chauvenist and racist to a degree, are smart enough to realize that the fact that some people didn’t have the same opportunities in society doesn’t disqualify them from subsequently advancing political causes. They are also smart enough to realize that someone who chooses against serving in the IDF when they have every opportunity to do so is making as much a statement about their own character as they are about their political opinions.
John Kerry didn’t support the war in Vietnam, but that didn’t stop him from being the best soldier he could possibly be. And in israel, that means a whole lot more than it does here in America.
people who have not been exposed to the trauma and assault of military service may be better able to lead the country– who knows? bill clinton was a conscious objector and did not serve in vietnam. yet [i think] he was one of the better american presidents (evaluating his tenure from a global perspective). for now, and for better or for worse, israel is stuck with leaders who garnered their lifes’ experiences in the defense forces. while conflict can teach you about the sanctity of a human life (and about how quickly a person’s hopes can be extinguished by hardship or loss of life) it can also leave scars that prevent you from sensing nuance, negotiating peace, and cooperating rather than fighting.
For another truly nuanced look at casualty statistics, Google for “An Engineered Tragedy.”