Massacusetts City Council Debates Divestment From Israel
Now this is really bizaare. The Boston Globe is reporting that the Somerville board of Aldermen has prosposed to divest public money from Israel and US companies that supply its military, raising quite a stir in a relatively quiet city hall. Now these guys really aren’t dummies which makes one really wonder. Anyone wanna launch an email campaign?
For those not familiar with greater Boston – Somerville borders Cambridge. But, based on the politics, you knew that already, right?
Town Crier: “Anyone wanna launch an email campaign?”
And what would be the nature of this campaign?
Ahhh… Somerville. Where everybody shops at the ubber expensive organic Whole Foods grocery store and pack their bags into the SUV before picking up little zoe from her lacrosse practice. why is it so easy to be liberal while sitting in the foyer of your tasteful million $ home and contemplating world affairs? sigh…. fucking Sommerville.
More faculty-based anti Israel sentiment at a reputable academic institution? Shocker….
I don’t consider this move anti_israel. It is antisettler. So long as there settlements the two can’t really be distinguished. I also don’t believe Israel will leave one settlement without precisely this threat.
Of course, Jennifer. And to show that the divestment initiative is not anti-Israel, the folks in Somerville will also divest from ALL governments that have sponsored ANY policies they disagree with. In other words, they will divest from EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
But it’s good to see you so concerned about the settlers. Genocide in the Sudan? Gulags in North Korea? Slave labor in China? All very sad, but after all a mere distraction fron the ultimate crime: the settlements, without which the Arabs would live in peace and harmony with the Jews (just like before ’67!).
Wahahahaaa. Great comment J. You get the comment of the day award in all of Jew blogland!! Jennifer? You been owned…
Have to agree with CK on this one. Good job, J.
My country isn’t giving any of these countries millions of dollars of military and humanitarian aid, in order to transfer an other people off their native land. Both the UN and the US are doing something about Sudan, so I have no complaints. They are doing nothing about the Palestinians being made homeless on the West Bank, however. We are helping the Israelis do these nasty deeds and it is the main reason Arabs don’t .like us. Establishing a Palestinian state is a security priority of my country. The day we do it, 3/4 of Al Qaeda’s recrutment base will be gone.
Wow Jen. That was a pretty weak defense– you’re saying that because the US supports Israel (the only functional democracy in the Middle East), it makes sense for local communities to withdraw support from Israeli corporations which may have no relation at all with any settlements, settlers or any other aspect of Israeli policy in the territories? You’re confused, it seems.
There’s a huge difference between fighting Israeli policies that irk you, or even boycotting products made in the occupied territories and large scale divestment from Israel (not that I recommend the first two options, per se). Divestment is anti-Israel by definition– it affects all Israelis regardless of their political affiliations or actions. It’s especially disappointing given Israel’s leadership in developing so many technologies that have benefited the common good.
Essentially, it is collective economic punishment. Maybe sometimes you get annoyed that Israel is collectively punishing the Palestinians– so why the double standard? To say that divestment is an expression of your oppoisition to the settlements is really ludicrous. It is anti-Israel, through and through.
You’re saying 75% of al-Qaeda’s recruits are either Palestinian or are interested in radical Islam only because of the Palestinian cause? That’s dubious.
Now– you’re laying a lot of responsibility on the US to improve the Palestinians’ situations. But what about the Palestinians themselves? What have they or their leadership done to further their own cause? Use their educational system to instill hatred of Jews?hide the money that they could have used to build a better infrastructure and curtain terrorism? How about rejecting a forthcoming peace proposal and launching a terror war? America has lots of good reasons to support Israel (including the ability to use their support as leverage on the settlement issue), and is right to also support the idea of a free and democratic Palestine– but it’s not America’s fault that the Palestinians have not been able to get their act together. Maybe Arafat’s passing will change the tide…
Jennifer,
You may want to gain some knowledge before debating on the conflict.
Start with the BBC’s obituary on Arafat:
“The expertise which Arafat gained in explosives and demolition prepared him for his role as the head of Fatah’s military wing, al-Asifa – the Storm – which started operations in 1965. Al-Asifa’s job was to launch guerrilla attacks against Israel, mainly from Jordan, Lebanon and Gaza which was then under Egyptian control.”
This was way way before the occupation and settlements. Problems in the ME will still be there even after all the settlements are removed. But don’t worry the Palis & their friends will think of something.
2. Have you heard of Al Qaida’s attacks in Ryad, Madrid , Bali, and Casablanca? Nothing to do with the settlements. Nothing to do with the Palestinians.
3. America has its own problems in the world. Don”t scape goat Israel for America’s bad policies around the world
4. I hope you also worry about how you tax dollars are spent in Egypt and in other countries that receive American aid.
R HO Hum. There was no Palestinian state being offered before 1967. Israel was still trying to make Palestinians Jordanians at that time. Whether he fought a guerilla war against Israelis is not my concern. We all know they would have preferred not to have an Israeli state. Most American Indians would probably have preferred it if America had not been founded. I am not anal enough to take it personally and they are offered citizenship now, so the fights over. The PLO officially accepted the Israeli state during the Oslo accords. It is water under the bridge.
They attacked those places for supporting the US. Poll after Poll shows that is the main reason 90% of Arabs are pissed off at us. I wontt support it anymore/. The problem will diminish by 90% after the settlements go I assure. It is just common sense. People really don’t like having their houses bulldozed, so settlers can move in, who political rights they don’t.
Ronen. Talk about a weak defense. I guess when I boycotted South Africa I hated whites. The Israelis by large majorities voted for a government that collectively punish Palestinians. Could it be the reason you do that is because you just don’t want a Palestinian state, and you would like to make the settlements permenant. Hmm food for thought! Isn’t it kind of dumbe to let people build houses on land if you don’t intend them to stay there?
Ronen II I need to add something, not only do large majorities support a government that collectively punishes Palestinians, they have never supported one Israeli government since 1967 that didn’t establish settlements on the West Bank. Not one. The left and the right are guilty of this.
Also Sharon made it very clear that he is only giving up Gaza to annex the West Bank. That means contrary to Susan’s contention, Sharon and his voters aren’t “just interested in peace!” They are interested in territorial expansion at the expense of a Palestinian state. There is nothing peaceful about this. Unless Sharon gets out of the West Bank too, he can expect boycotts, and should particularly expect them from Americans since our reputation and security is onlline, but I suspect it wil mostly come from the EU, because they don’t have an fundamentalist christian cultists.
So long as votesr in Israel control this situation on the West Bank it is simply silly to target boycotts to the settlers only. The settlers will probably just mislabel their produce to make it look like it comes from Israel and Israel will let them get away with it. I don’t really care whether the US did this during jim crow and slavery. The US deserved boycotts when it supported Jim Crow and slavery and probably deserve it now over the war, and the unquestioning support of the Israeli government. Montgomery deserved the Montgomery bus boycott. I am antiBush.and antiwarmonger, not antiamerican. The majority of the US are too apathetic to what is going on to change anything, so they can reap the consequences.
Wow Jennifer, your double standards and blind support of terrorists is difficult to swallow.
Let’s begin with democracy. We support Saudi Arabia and prop up their corrupt and entirely undemocractic regime. Where is your call for divestment from that government? And if you want to talk about Al Qaeda and terror against the US, most of the bombers from 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia. Yet you blame our policy vis a vis Israel and you do not bring up divestment from Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, as a country, was created by England for their own geopolitical reasons. After 9/11, Osama blamed the attack first and foremost on the presence of US troops on Saudi soil. Where is your advocacy of harming their economy? After all, none of what I’ve described has any relationship to Israel or Palestinians.
Egypt is another dictatorship. They receive over $2 billion a year from the US. They are the birthplace of the Muslim Brotherhood, predessors to Al Qaeda and the source of many of its members and leaders. The Muslim Brotherhood has existed in Egypt before the creation of Israel and its purpose has been to establish a theocracy. Its means have involved violence, typically against civilians and political leaders. Where is your call to divest from Egypt, birthplace and current home to much of the anti-Western ideology that has created this terror war?
a mark of the idolitarian, whether stalinist, fascist, scientologist, or jenniferian, is the failure to respond to facts that contradict their position. the jenniferian supports the boycott of israel, but not the boycott of sudan, egypt, china, or the other countries doing horrible things to native populations (far worse than any claims regarding israel and the palestinians) because the us isnt giving aid to those countries. besides being factually incorrect (egypt gets more us aid than any country other than israel), it makes no logical sense – if the purpose of a boycott is to punish a state for bad actions, what difference does it make whether they receive aid or not?
as to the settlements causing 90% of the muslim terrorism around the world, really? is that why the muslims in the phillipines are trying to overthrow the christian central government? is that why the muslims of thailand are trying to overthrow the budhist central government? is that why the muslim central government of the sudan is trying to destroy the black christians of their south?
but jennifer has accomplished her goal, she has become the centre of attention for a few brief moments, so jennifer, enjoy
Jennifer, you easily dismiss the comment about how Fatah was launched before 1967 and how Arafat intended to attack Israel before Israel controlled the Territories.
That’s a light dismissal that doesn’t address a number of issues. First of all, the US was not supporting Israel at the time, yet already back then and in the late 60s and early 70s, the Palestinians already internationalized terror.
What that means, I hope you understand as a person who feels such sympathy for the Palestinians, is that they were targeting innocent civilians throughout the world to make a political statement.
When you so easily dismiss the attack on the disco in Bali because somehow those Australian and New Zealand disco-goers are, in your mind, US supporters, you show approval of violence that is simply unconscionable. Think about it: you have justified the burning, maiming and murder of innocent Australians in Bali because their government is a friend of the US.
Now along with your immoral position, you attempt to indicate that the support of US positions is actually support of US support of Israel and the settlements which justifies divestment. However, you once again conveniently (and maliciously, if you want to take your ideas to their logical conclusion) ignore those US Middle East positions that have nothing to do with Israel. We’ve discussed support for Saudi Arabia, which is about oil. Same with support of Kuwait. Same with our war on Iraq. Our support of Egypt can be perceived as Israel-related, but it is actually related to the importance of Egypt as a power broker in the Middle East. Kennedy was trying to court Egypt as an ally as far back as the early 60s when the US had a very tepid relationship with Israel.
Jennifer, as for the whole idea that Israelis support expansion “at the expense of a Palestinian state,” I’m afraid that you’re ascribing motives retroactively on the basis of today’s situation. Don’t forget that until 1993, there was no Oslo. Even as late as 1995, when Rabin died, the Israelis and Palestinians were talking about “autonomy” not a state.
The land in dispute, which so clearly in your mind, is the land of a “Palestinian state” is no such thing. It might become such a thing if the Palestinians can learn to function in a peaceful manner, but it does not have to become anything. Resolutions 242 and 338, which remain the guides to any final resolution are clear that the Arabs have to accept secure and peaceful borders for Israel and that with that in place, the final arrangements for which parts of the Disputed Territories will be kept by Israel will be determined in negotiations. However, unless those standards are met, the Israeli presence may continue.
So why not divest and boycott against the Arabs? Why not compel them to reach such poverty that they will finally agree to come to terms with Israel? Why encourage their violence targeting not soldiers, but mothers and children on buses? If it works for them over there, why wouldn’t they bring it over here? You think they’ll be our friends suddenly or do you think they’ll recognize weakness and pounce? What would you do in this situation?
By the way, Sharon has not indicated that he will annex anything and I challenge you to locate a source for that information. In fact, publicly, and to his own party, he has indicated that there will be some difficult compromises ahead. Furthermore, he was opposed to a security barrier precisely because he knew it would create a de facto border. And yet he is now a strong proponent of a fence. The issue is not that he doesn’t want to keep the West Bank, he does. It is that he, like 60% of Israelis, realizes he cannot, and so he is seeking another solution.
Finally, Jennifer, try to refrain from the South Africa comparison because it doesn’t hold water here. Just yesterday, an Arab Israeli Knesset member called a Jewish Israeli Knesset member a Nazi, inside the Knesset, in the midst of a legislative session. Why don’t you try to find an instance where blacks were even allowed to vote, much less sit in a parliament and call whites the worst possible insult they could call them? I challenge you.
You should also refrain from the “unquestioning support” of Israel line of argument. The US questions plenty and often. It frequently controls Israeli behavior. As an example, I point you to the fact that it was the US which prohibited Israel from killing or exiling Arafat in recent years. The State Department has also not been Israel’s friend over time.
However, the US does view Israel as an ally and as a friend. If it weren’t for Israel, the US wouldn’t have had an ally in that region during the Cold War. But the US did, and a powerful one that was able to prove the strength of American arms in battle and provide deep intelligence like capturing and turning over MIG jets to the US.
According to you, that is now irrelevant, and not only irrelevant, but the current status of the conflict, which is at least half the fault of the Arabs, in your mind can be resolved only if Israel is made to suffer or give in despite the fact that they have proven to be a functioning democracy where Muslims have more civil rights than virtually any Arab state.
You’re not just antiwar and antibush, you’re antidemocracy, antijustice, antireason, and proterror, prohate, and pro-betrayal-of-loyal-oldtime-friends-with-common-values. I know you don’t mean to be helping terrorists, but please recognize that dividing and conquering is a tried and true method of fighting propaganda wars, and you seem to have swallowed the Osama and the pro-Palestinians’ bullshit hook, line and sinker.
Israel is no saint, but it is in a very difficult situation. The other side actually has much greater powers to compromise since all they have to do is accept Israel’s existence without placing poison pills in the arrangement. But for some reason they refuse. How about you force divestment from those Arab countries and see whether that earns us the peace we all seek. If you can’t see how that makes more sense, then perhaps you need to rethink your values.
The divestment campaign is intended to de-legitimise Israel’s existence by equating it to apatheid South Africa; as if Israel had “Jews only” anything, and by denying that the Jews have their historic homeland here.
Affluent westerners living in their rich countries with checkered past (colonialism, genocide, segregation) feel the need to soothe their guilt, by denouncing anything they idenify as similar, so they care less about whichever atrocity is done Africans or Asians, as long as it done by Africans and Asians.
Jews, after having been rejected by Europe, suddenly become “Europeans” in some westerners’ mind after they restore their ancient country, and so whatever wrong we do (or do not, facts are unimportant here) condemning us wholesale (as in a boycott) keeps the so-called conscience of the so-called senstive-souls clean. For while we are not really western “whites” we are the next closest things (mind you we re also the next closest thing to Arabs, Muslims, to a host of other groups).
For precision’s sake:
“*Some* Affluent westerners living in their rich countries with checkered past (colonialism, genocide, segregation) feel the need to soothe their guilt, by denouncing anything they idenify as similar, so they care less about whichever atrocity is done *to* Africans or Asians, as long as it done by Africans and Asians.”
The same can be encountered among some affluent Jewish Israelis whose parents or grandparents used to be Ashkenaze.
Good responses to the divestment issue, T_M, Ronen, Avi, R and Victor. All I would want to add is a small detail, highlighting Jennifer’s command of the facts and showing the blind single-mindedness of people like her:
“Both the UN and the US are doing something about Sudan, so I have no complaints.”
If only. Here’s my complaint: almost 300,000 dead already, with many more to come if the killing isn’t stopped. And it doesn’t look like it will be stopped.
J, you are absolutely on target. And the deep irony, of course, is that she’s even comparing the Sudanese situation to the Territories.
One, the fact that Saudi Arabia isn’t a democracy isn’t germain to a discussion of Aparthied. No, I don’t boycott countries because of lack of democracy. Two, my country and most businesses in mycountry have little to do with the Sudan in the first place as a result of an existing boycott. Three, It is simply false to claim I support any acts of terrorism. You said guerilla war, which isn’t necessarily terrorism. four, if past involvement in terrorism is so unforgivable in Israel then why do Israelis elect Likud, a party founded by Stern and Irgun members?
TM: you asked my to prove Sharon planned to annex the land. Here you go
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/12/wmid12.xml
Not only will he annex the west bank settlements, but Bush will support him in his effort.
On aparthied: Blacks were allowed to vote and hold office under this system, they just weren’t allowed to be represented proportionally which is why there was a call for “one man, one vote!”
Yet, another article on Sharon’s annexation of the West Bank settlements.
Anger and triumph as Bush backs Israel settlements plan
By Ed O’Loughlin in Jerusalem and Marian Wilkinson in Washington
April 16, 2004
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The Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, returns from Washington to a hero’s welcome after his stunning victory in obtaining US consent to the future annexation of Palestinian territories in the West Bank.
In a further crushing blow to the Palestinians, President George Bush announced that the US now rejected the claimed right of Palestinian refugees and their descendants to return to their homes in what is now Israel.
As well, Mr Bush signalled a change in the hostile US policy towards the 600-kilometre line of fences and walls that Israel is building inside the West Bank. Palestinians say that the convoluted route of the fence is designed as a land grab. Israel says it is intended only to prevent terrorist attacks.
Palestinian leaders reacted with anger at the historic shift in US policy, which Mr Bush spelt out at a news conference with Mr Sharon at the White House, where he also endorsed Mr Sharon’s plan to pull out of the Gaza Strip and remove some small West Bank settlements. ………..
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/15/1081998301899.html
Oh and TM, the rest of your rants were nothing but strawman arguments. non arab muslim insurgencies against the Phillipino government aren’t exactly germain to why Arabs are mad at the United States.
jennifer, i realize that small brain capacity prevents you from remembering what you have said from one post to the next, you mightr scroll up to refresh your memory that you claimed that the settlements caused 90% of arab hatred of the us; as others have noted, if thats true, then what has caused muslim hatred of the central governments of thailand, the phillipines, what sudanese governments hatred of its black christain citizens, etc. etc. maybe its not the settlements that cause problems, maybe its that muslims hate any country (or that portion of any country) that is nonmuslim
If you don’t realize that Arab and muslims aren’t the same thing, and that the muslims in the Phillipines are Philipino mulsims not Arabs, and that Phillipines isn’t part of the US, so this insurgency has nothing to do with hatred of the US, you have no right to accuse anyone of having a small brain.
oh the muslims in the Sudan, Thiland and the Sudan aren’t arabs either by the way. By the way if Arab equals muslim how did Edward Said and Hanan Ashrawi end up christians?
oh the muslims in Thiland and the Sudan aren’t arabs either by the way. By the way if Arab equals muslim how did Edward Said and Hanan Ashrawi end up christians?
now watch carefully, jennifer: not all muslims are arabs, but most arabs are muslims. if we find that most muslims are engaged in vile acts of violence against their government and against innocent civilians, then we can assume that the arab group, as part of the larger muslim group, is guided by the same principles as the rest of their fellow muslims: a hatred of non muslims, a distain for human life, a belief in the inferiority of jews and christians (not to mention buddhists, hindus, and baathists, and others), and a desire to subdue those they consider inferior – democracies, women, jews and christians. note that the most democratic, least offensive muslim tinged nation is turkey, the most secular of the muslim/arab states, and the most anti american state is the most fundamentalist islam state out therel, iran (also not an arab state). therefor, dont look to arabness to determine why the arabs hate the us; rather, look to their muslimness for that explanation
Most muslims aren’t engaged in terror against civlians, and it wasn’t establshed the insurgencies against those governments were. Revolutions are not all terrorist in nature. Furthermore, those insurgencies all have to do with autonomy pretty much as the Palestinian one does. The Palestinains hate Israel because Israel made them homeless, and now oppresses them on the West Bank, with settlers who have citizenship and can vote for prosettler governments, while they do not have citizenship and are denied the right to vote the buggers out. They are trying to establish a Palestinian state. It has nothing to do with Islam, or Edward Said and Hanan Ashrawi wouldn’t be involved in it. Look Israel would clearly like transfer them from the west bank just as it did from Israel proper. That is a common sense reason to fight Israel. It has nothing to do with generalized hatred of the nonmuslim.
By your reasoning every war waged by a christian population, was waged against non christians because they hated non christians. For one thing that fails badly in the Sudan, where the war is one muslim group against another. Both the Janaweeds and their victims are muslims. All these revolutions by different muslim fact are very different movements that reflect localized grievences. So your logic is nothing but a broad brush stroke, that counts every act by a muslim as being a holy war directed at nonmuslims, and a broad brush stroke against arabs that assumes they have no other greivences against Israel. They clearly do have real grievences against Israel. I for one would be at war with Israel if Israel had done that to me, whether I was christian, a muslim and atheist or a pagan. It is also projection in a certain sense, because we know that many of the settlers do have a generalized hatred of any non jew living on their god given land, christian, muslim pagan. They want them driven out.
BTW, when you characterized all muslims and arabs as being involved in terrorism I shouldn’t have been too nice to point out that such sentiments are not only incorrect but absolutely no different from skinheads ideas about “hook nosed greedy jews’ I will never understand people who only hate bigotry against their own group.
South Africa still exists. So divestment campaigns are designed to delegitimize the exitence of states. they are designed to modify behavior. If the Settlements end, and they probably well if enough pressure is applied, Israel will go on existing and probably be seen as a progressive force again. Until then, I am all in favor of boycotts against it. I particularly am in favor of boycotts as a tactic against societies with democratic traits. Boycotts against Iraq and currently the Sudan will have little effect because the governments don’t have to answer to voters. South Africa’s white dominated democracy had to react to Afrikanners that were sick of the boycotts, and Israel will have to react to Israelis.
Jennifer wrote:My country isn’t giving any of these countries millions of dollars of military and humanitarian aid, in order to transfer an other people off their native land.
It also isn’t giving Israel billions to transfer another people off their native land. In fact, I can’t think of a single President who has ever said this. Quit making stuff up.
Both the UN and the US are doing something about Sudan, so I have no complaints.
Of course, so what if 300,000 are dead? After all, in 4 years of fighting, 3500 Palestinians are dead. Jordan has killed more Palestinians in 1970 than Israel has in the last 50 years.
They are doing nothing about the Palestinians being made homeless on the West Bank, however.
Not true. They are trying to stop funds from getting to Hamas so Israel won’t destroy the homes of terrorists and arms smugglers.
Oh, you meant homeless Palestinians who receive sufficient UN aid to rebuild their homes?
If you don’t know, you should be aware the Clinton Administration tried to fund the PA with Congress. After the Palestinians refused to be accountable to the spending of the funds, they were cut off by the US.
We are helping the Israelis do these nasty deeds and it is the main reason Arabs don’t .like us.
Nasty deeds like stopping terror? I know you don’t know this either, but Israel was not occupying 98% of the Palestinian population in a process that began in 1996 and culminated in the re-entry of the Israelis into these PA controlled areas in 2002 after the Park Hotel Massacre. During that time, there was a significant escalation in the number of attacks upon Israelis. The attacks began to fall in number after 2002. So the lesson is that the nasty deeds are the result of Palestinian actions and when the Palestinians are given free rein, instead of using it to build playgrounds, schools, roads and buildings, they use it to fatten their top dogs and to finance terror activities against Israel. Self defense by the Israelis is not nasty deeds.
,i> Establishing a Palestinian state is a security priority of my country. The day we do it, 3/4 of Al Qaeda’s recrutment base will be gone.
Actually, the day you leave Iraq might be the day their recruitment ends. You forgot US troops’ presence on Arab lands as a reason for attacks. US was in Lebanon: boom! Us was is Yemen: Boom! US was in Saudi Arabia: Boom! US is in Iraq: Boom! See how Israel isn’t the problem?
Victor
South Africa still exists. So divestment campaigns aren’t designed to delegitimize the exitence of states. They are designed to modify behavior. If the Settlements end, and they probably well if enough pressure is applied, Israel will go on existing and probably be seen as a progressive force again. Until then, I am all in favor of boycotts against it. I particularly am in favor of boycotts as a tactic against societies with democratic traits. Boycotts against Iraq and currently the Sudan will have little effect because the governments don’t have to answer to voters. South Africa’s white dominated democracy had to react to Afrikanners that were sick of the boycotts, and Israel will have to react to Israelis.
Sorry about typos, I seem to have a screwed up keyboard.
TM I protested the War, tried to get Dean nominated, and did every thing I could to stop it, but the anger Arabs feel for us clearly preceded the war. The Israelis bulldoze every house in a neighborhood to get Hamas. That is collective punishment, much worse than a little boycott. Also if Israelis weren’t putting settlements on the west bank, I doubt there would be nearly as many terrorist threats against it.
Jennifer:
The PLO officially accepted the Israeli state during the Oslo accords. It is water under the bridge.
Actually, they didn’t. Here is the newly annointed leader of Fatah who is taking over for Arafat admitting it was a scam. Read my post at http://www.jewlicious.com about the hardliner and click on the links to upgrade your info.
The problem will diminish by 90% after the settlements go I assure. It is just common sense.
Common sense should tell you that their charter calls for the destruction of Israel, as Farouk Kaddoumi tells us in the links at Jewlicious. Have you considered that your values are different from theirs? Anyway, Iraq and our presence in Saudi are bigger problems for the Arabs, just as our support for the Shah of Iran was the reason for that revolution and the hatred of Iran for the US. Once again, Israel is useful as a straw man, but irrelevant.
People really don’t like having their houses bulldozed, so settlers can move in, who political rights they don’t.
Precisely, a valuable lesson learned by the Jews when they were massacred by Arabs in Hebron in 1929 and by more Arabs in the Old City of Jerusalem in 1948. In both cases, the Arabs evicted all the Jews. All of them. Judenrein, Jennifer. Look it up.
So anyway, figuring that this was unjust, the Israeli Supreme Court prohibited the settling of a settler on Palestinian land. If a Palestinian lives or uses land in the West Bank or Gaza, no settler or other Israeli is permitted to build or live on it. This law created a situation where many “settlements” found that once they put up their fence, very shortly thereafter, new olive trees and plantings by Palestinian farmers appeared right up to their fence.
When Israel bulldozes a home, it is usually involved in an aspect of the war. It is the home of terrorists, used by terrorists for war, or used for smuggling. Israel isn’t one hundred percent perfect about this, but they try.
TM. There is no successor to Arafat. Jpost should be used a buttwipe because of its inaccuracy on these matters in the past. It has the credibility of the National Enquirer. Jpost and it sister Holliger publications all promoted Chalabi lies, and the WMD lie.
Polls don’t show Arabs disliked for Saudi Arabia. I don’t want the Saudi Royal family to go. They will be replaced with Osama bin Asshole, who is in no way a democrat. He recrutes on ARab hostility over the treatment of Palestinians mostly, though their are other grievences. I feel Arabs care more about the unfairness of Israel transferring Arabs than they do about democracy. They do show anger at us primarily over the West Bank settlements.
The zionist were already trying to establish there state long before the massacre at Hebron. The Palestine mandate had already been partitioned into Jordanian and Israeli sectors, and zionist Jews were moving in. Zionism from the beginning required transfer of Arabs. The unfortunate victims at Hebron were caught up in the fight. There were also massacres of zionists against arabs at that point. Many Arabs rescued the Oriental Jews from this tragedy.
One, the fact that Saudi Arabia isn’t a democracy isn’t germain to a discussion of Aparthied.
Oh, but a government supporting Wahhabism, spreading it to over 80% of the mosques in the Western world, providing funds to numerous terror groups, and being the source of 15 of the 19 bombers of the WTC don’t count as reasons for divestment?
Of course there is no apartheid in Saudi Arabia, if you’re a Jew or a Christian, you can’t be a citizen.
When Kuwait kicked out 300,000 Palestinians who had been living there longer than some of the Arabs who were considered refugees by UNWRA in 1949 had been living in Mandate Palestine, did you call for divestment? After all, they still aren’t allowed back and a ton of Palestinian children were born on that soil.
Why the double standards?
No, I don’t boycott countries because of lack of democracy.
No, you boycott democracies that provide greater freedoms to their citizens than the countries you don’t boycott. How many Arab countries that you don’t boycott and support terrorism allow women to vote? Israel allows Arab women to vote.
Two, my country and most businesses in mycountry have little to do with the Sudan in the first place as a result of an existing boycott.
Oh, so now it’s not the morality of the boycott that you care about, it’s whether we have a LOT of business with the boycotted democracy that allows Arab women and men greater freedom of expression than any Arab country.
Three, It is simply false to claim I support any acts of terrorism.
But you called Arafat’s war a guerrilla war. He was attacking civilians. You call that a war? You defended the acts of terror in Bali by explaining that it was because of US policy and support of those countries for US policy. Sounds like justifying terror. You know how I know? Because there is nothing lamer than hearing somebody say, “Boy, those Palestinians sure are suffering so that’s why they blow Israelis in markets.” You see, that is support of terrorism. Plain and simple.
You said guerilla war, which isn’t necessarily terrorism.
No, you said guerilla war. I said terrorism.
four, if past involvement in terrorism is so unforgivable in Israel then why do Israelis elect Likud, a party founded by Stern and Irgun members?
Maybe because Israeli society and the Yishuv society that preceded it were staunchly opposed to the actions of the Stern and Irgun members? Maybe because the Haganah did its utmost to distance itself from their actions. Maybe because when Israel was founded, the first thing Ben Gurion did was force the integration of those groups into the IDF with forced promises that they would not engage in terror. Maybe because Ben Gurion sunk their ship full of desperately needed armaments, the Altalena?Maybe because they stopped the terror and agreed to join the mainstream. Maybe because when they were engaged in terror, it was primarily directed at soldiers.
TM: you asked my to prove Sharon planned to annex the land. Here you go
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/12/wmid12.xml
Not only will he annex the west bank settlements, but Bush will support him in his effort.
Um, that article merely states that an exchange of letters was going to take place with American support that certain areas very close to the Green Line would be acceptable to the US if kept by Israel. Earlier you wrote that Sharon wants to annex the West Bank. This is very different. Both 242 and 338 accept that Israel will keep some of the land it conquered in 1967. Clinton accepted this as well.
TM:It is actually inhumane to boycott non democracies, because they dont’ have to answer to voters. If South Africa had been a complete dictatorship I wouldn’t have called for a boycott against it. Boycotts only work as a tool against voting populations This is true. Israel won’t let nonjews become citzens, unless married to one. It has a law against marrying Arabs, and a law that says that a legally Jewish child with an ARab parent can’t be citizens.
The founders of Likud including Begin and Shamir were all Stern and Irgun members, so aparently Israeli society wasn’t too horrified. Those individuals were also associated with acts specific acts of terrorism, much of it directed at civlians, yet Israel elected them and their party.
TM you said “Um, that article merely states that an exchange of letters was going to take place with American support that certain areas very close to the Green Line would be acceptable to the US if kept by Israel”
Read the next article I posted where the exchage had taken place.
Correcton it has a law against Jews married to ARabs moving to Israel and their kids becoming citizens.
Correcton it has a law against Jews married to ARabs moving to Israel and their kids becoming citizens.
On aparthied: Blacks were allowed to vote and hold office under this system, they just weren’t allowed to be represented proportionally which is why there was a call for “one man, one vote!”
You threw me for a loop there. I thought perhaps you knew something I didn’t. Anyway, the Washington Post says you’re wrong.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/s_africa/overview.htm
“a historic new constitution, promulgated into law in December 1993. Among other things, the temporary charter provided for an April 1994 election that, for the first time, would allow blacks to vote for the national parliament and decide the presidency.”
More:
“Only members of the white minority could vote and hold political office. After the British took control, white settlers drove blacks from the most productive lands.”
True for Israel? No. Arab citizens of any religion in Galilee control some very fertile land. Arabs of any religion can vote and hold office.
“complete racial separation…people of different races were required to use segregated train cars, buses, elevators, park benches, restrooms, restaurants, hotels, and a host of other public and private facilities. Interracial marriages and interracial sex were outlawed. Athletic teams were segregated and could not play against each other.”
True for Israel? No. None of the above is true.
Also, South Africa was not in a state of war over its existence. Israel is. despite that, it grants its Arab citizens rights that Arabs in Arab countries can only dream about. Are you proposing divestment from those countries? Of course not, they are only dictatorships and that’s not a criterion for divestment as far as you’re concerned.
How about murder of your own citizens, like Syria did in Hama and Jordan did during Black September?
No, I guess if it’s not Israel, it doesn’t require divestment. But wait, Israel never murdered its own citizens and doesn’t even murder non-citizens like Syria and Jordan did, so why divest? The occupation, you say. Settlers and settlements. Well, isn’t Syria occupying Lebanon since 1976? Isn’t there a Security Council resolution telling them to stop? Aren’t they interfering in Lebanon by having their soldiers there, financing independent militias and Hezbollah, and imposing the top leadership of the country?
Yes they are.
Jennifer, where is your call for divestment from Syria?
Jeenifer, your second article was the same as the first and said nothing about annexing the West Bank. Actually, the area under discussion is about 3% of the West Bank and is very similar to the area discussed in the Taba negotiations with the Palestinians.
Oh and TM, the rest of your rants were nothing but strawman arguments. non arab muslim insurgencies against the Phillipino government aren’t exactly germain to why Arabs are mad at the United States.
But you said they were. You said they took place because of US support for Israel.
I hope you’re enjoying my rants, I’m enjoying yours.
TM you said:
You threw me for a loop there. I thought perhaps you knew something I didn’t. Anyway, the Washington Post says you’re wrong.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/s_africa/overview.htm
“a historic new constitution, promulgated into law in December 1993. Among other things, the temporary charter provided for an April 1994 election that, for the first time, would allow blacks to vote for the national parliament and decide the presidency.”
Me: That doesn’t actually contradict what I said. When they weren’t represented proporationally to their population. 90% of the seats were held by whites, according to the aparthied constitution, and the rest were reserved for coloreds blacks, they had little impact on the National Parliment or the Presidency. That is just the 8th grade level of reporting you find at many newspapers.
Look Israel would clearly like transfer them from the west bank just as it did from Israel proper. That is a common sense reason to fight Israel. It has nothing to do with generalized hatred of the nonmuslim.
If Israel wanted to drive them out, it would have done so already. They haven’t. In fact, in 2000, Israel offered the Palestinians a state. That’s right, for the first time since the UN did it in 1948, the Palestinians were offered a state. They rejected it, claimed the Israelis didn’t offer enough, launched a war of terror, and then when Israel came back into areas it had relinquished to the PA years earlier, complained about “the occupation.”
Generalized hatred of the non-Muslim is exactly what Saudi Arabia is exporting. But you’re not proposing divestment from them. You’re proposing it for Israel where freedom of religion is sanctioned.
Here is an aparthied era description of the government of south Africa
Note there is a chamber of colored and Asians.
Government
Type: Executive-president; under the 1984 constitution, tricameral
Parliament with one chamber each for whites, “coloreds,” and
Asians. Independence: The Union of South Africa was created on
May 31, 1910; became sovereign state within British Empire in
1934; became a republic on May 31, 1961; left the British
Commonwealth in October 1961. Branches: Executive-state
president (chief of state) elected to a 5-year term subject to
removal by majority vote of each of the three Houses. Legislative-
tricameral Parliament consisting of 308 members in three
chambers elected by, respectively, the white, “colored,” and Asian
electorates on separate voters’ rolls. House of Assembly (white)
166 members elected directly for maximum 5-year term, four
members nominated by the president, eight indirectly elected by the
chamber; House of Representatives (“colored”) 80 directly elected
members, two members nominated by the president, and three
indirectly elected by the chamber; House of Delegates (Asian) 40
members directly elected, two nominated by the president and three
indirectly elected by the chamber. President’s Council: 60 members,
25 appointed by the president, 20 elected by the House of Assembly,
10 elected by the House of Representatives and five elected by the
House of Delegates. Members serve during term of parliament.
Judicial-Supreme Court consisting of Appellate Division in
Bloemfontein and four provincial divisions.
Administrative subdivisions: Provincial governments of the
Transvaal, Orange Free State, Cape of Good Hope, and Natal; 10
separate “homelands,” which the government has designated for
Africans. Four are regarded as independent by South Africa but not
by any other government.
Political parties: White-National Party, Conservative Party,
Democratic Party (merger of Progressive Federal Party, Independent
Party, and National Democratic Movement). “Colored”-Labour Party,
Freedom Party, People’s Progressive Party, Reformed Freedom
Party, New Convention People’s Party. Asian-National People’s
Party, Solidarity, Progressive Independent Party, National Federal
Party, National Democratic Party. Suffrage: Adult whites,
“coloreds,” and Asians 18 and older.
Central government budget (FY 1989-90): Rand 46.32 billion (1
rand=about US$.38)
Defense (FY 1989-90): Rand 8.7 billion.
Fiscal year: April 1- March 31.
Flag: Three horizontal bands-orange, white, and blue from top to
bottom with the Union Jack and the flags of the two former Boer
Republics (the Orange Free State and the Transvaal Republic)
reproduced in miniature and centered on a white band.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Sh1XXzYzMIMJ:dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/bgnotes/af/southafrica9003.html+apartheid+constitution+coloreds+one+man+one+vote+representation+parliament&hl=en
1.
All these revolutions by different muslim fact are very different movements that reflect localized grievences. So your logic is nothing but a broad brush stroke, that counts every act by a muslim as being a holy war directed at nonmuslims, and a broad brush stroke against arabs that assumes they have no other greivences against Israel.
2.
They clearly do have real grievences against Israel. I for one would be at war with Israel if Israel had done that to me, whether I was christian, a muslim and atheist or a pagan.
1 and 2 contradict each other. You must be tired.
Anyway, Israel did nothing except defend itself in 1948. The attackers were Arabs.
It is also projection in a certain sense, because we know that many of the settlers do have a generalized hatred of any non jew living on their god given land, christian, muslim pagan. They want them driven out.
Wow, what a generalization. Can you back this up with evidence? This time, unlike your sources about annexing all of the West Bank, which proved nothing of the kind, please provide sources that show that many of the settlers hate non-Jews living on their god-given land and want them driven out.
The deep irony of your post, by the way, is that Islamic religion is precisely what is driving groups like Hamas to attacks Israel using exactly your logic. Simply replace your word settlers with Hamas and other Muslim terror groups. The crucial difference, as you will discover if you actually research this, is that Israel has no equivalent to Hamas and never did. The settlers are not like Hamas and have no equivalent movement. Also, the 1-2% of settlers who said they would not leave their settlements without a fight, are not supported by many Israelis. Hamas is supported by significant portions of the Palestinian public, and their suicide bombings are supported by a majority of Palestinians.
By your own standards, you should be calling to divest from the Palestinians and their sponsors.
Ok so Israel wants to live as nonvoting second class citizens under the Israeli settlers then. How is that not aparthied?
Osama is an enemy of the Saudi Royal family, so Saudi ARabia proper is not exporting terror. It is insurgents within SA that are doing so.
The Israelis bulldoze every house in a neighborhood to get Hamas.
False.
TM. There is no successor to Arafat. Jpost should be used a buttwipe because of its inaccuracy on these matters in the past. It has the credibility of the National Enquirer. Jpost and it sister Holliger publications all promoted Chalabi lies, and the WMD lie.
The JPost is run by David Horovitz who is an extremely conscienscious reporter and editor. You clearly don’t know of what you speak.
Anyway, that’s why I also provided an Haaretz link, for balance. And Haaretz reported the exact same thing, that Farouk Kaddoumi has said that the armed struggle will continue and that the PLO Charter was never modified.
None of the settlers are like Hamas?
Here is an interview with Rabbi Meir Kahane where he talks openly of driving out all muslims, his admiration for Khomeni and his desire to establish a jewish theocracy. This is from pro kahane website by the way.
http://www.kahane.org/meir/interview.htm
Also JDL, the organization he founded proudly claims Baruch Goldstein.
Harretz is also reporting that there is no succesor to Arafat right now. So what if the PLO charter wasn’t modified. It is a charter. Clearly it’s goals changed after Oslo. It was supposed to become defunct actually.
Polls don’t show Arabs disliked for Saudi Arabia. I don’t want the Saudi Royal family to go. They will be replaced with Osama bin Asshole, who is in no way a democrat. He recrutes on ARab hostility over the treatment of Palestinians mostly, though their are other grievences. I feel Arabs care more about the unfairness of Israel transferring Arabs than they do about democracy. They do show anger at us primarily over the West Bank settlements.
Oh, so this is about appeasing people who are wrong. I get it! If I run a dictatorship where women can’t vote, where I don’t give non-Muslims citizenship, and where I support international hatred of the West, then the West should appease me when I tell them that Israel is bad bad bad. Nice values you’ve got there, Jennifer.
The zionist were already trying to establish there state long before the massacre at Hebron.
So? That justifies the Hebron massacre of 69 civilians who just happened to be there as part of a millenia old Jewish settlement? How are you justifying this exactly?
1.The Palestine mandate had already been partitioned into Jordanian and Israeli sectors, and zionist Jews were moving in.
2. Zionism from the beginning required transfer of Arabs.
3. The unfortunate victims at Hebron were caught up in the fight.
4. There were also massacres of zionists against arabs at that point.
5. Many Arabs rescued the Oriental Jews from this tragedy.
1. False
2. False
3. False
4. False
5. Never heard of this but I’ll wait to see if you have a source.
Jennifer, if you’re getting your info from the Internet, you might want to open a history book. Everything you’ve just written is completely off base.
So apparently you have no memory that all the houses in Philadelphia corridor were demolished to fiind holes were missles could apparenly be brought in. It was just a few months ago. Come on.
The Palestine mandate of the league of nations.
http://www.mideastweb.org/mandate.htm
The Palestine Mandate was born out of the ambitions of the British and their promises to the French, the Arabs and the Zionists, as set forth in the Balfour declaration, the Sykes Picot Agreement and the McMahon Correspondence. The background is discussed extensively by David Fromkin, A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East, 1990 (Owl books, 2001) and also by Michael J. Cohen in The Origins and Evolution of the Arab-Zionist Conflict 1987. Cohen wrote:
“..But once the United States abdicated any further role in the new European order after the summer of 1919, it was left to Britain and France to divide the Middle East between them. It cannot be said that either power displayed any great altruism when it came to deciding whether the indigenous peoples of the area were mature enough to be granted their independence. In April 1920, in the small Italian town of San Remo, Britain and France divide the Middle East into mandates while the American ambassador read his newspaper in the garden. Britain obtained Palestine, Transjordan 6 and Iraq; the French acquired Syria.
6. (footnote) – Palestine and Transjordan remained a single administrative unit until 1946, but in 1922, Transjordan was detached from the area to which the Balfour Declaration applied. This has remained a grievance with the Zionist side, but it should be remembered that the area to the east of the river Jordan was definitely included in the area promised to Husayn in 1915; the linking of Palestine and Transjordan had been an administrative convenience for Britain and did not indicate any recognition of Zionist claims to the East Bank of the Jordan.
Michael J. Cohen – The origins and Evolution of the Arab-Zionist Conflict, University of California Press, 1987 page 64 and footnote.
The League Mandate system was tailored to match the colonialist ambitions of the British and French in fact, while paying lip service to the American wishful thinking about self-determination. In accordance with the principles of the Balfour Declaration and Article 22 of the League Convenant, the League of Nations drew up the Mandate for Palestine. The document underwent several transformations. Arab pressure and riots in Palestine had brought about the Churchill White Paper of 1922, which again reiterated the right of the Jews to a Homeland in Palestine. At this time, Britain detached all of the area east of the Jordan river from Palestine and gave it to the Hashemi family as an independent Arab state. Many historians believe that this was a sop to the Hashemites, who had lost Syria to the French and Saudi Arabia to ibn Saud. As noted above, others believe that Transjordan was never a part of Palestine. Maps drawn by the Zionists and presented for consideration during deliberations regarding the mandate included a part of Transjordan. ……….
http://www.mideastweb.org/mandate.htm
“TM:It is actually inhumane to boycott non democracies, because they dont’ have to answer to voters. If South Africa had been a complete dictatorship I wouldn’t have called for a boycott against it. Boycotts only work as a tool against voting populations
So you support the Iraq war?
I ask because if you don’t approve of sanctions against dictatorships then war is the only other remedy – other than allowing the dictators free rein.
You’re a very moral person.
This is true. Israel won’t let nonjews become citzens, unless married to one.
False.
It has a law against marrying Arabs, and a law that says that a legally Jewish child with an ARab parent can’t be citizens.The founders of Likud including Begin and Shamir were all Stern and Irgun members, so aparently Israeli society wasn’t too horrified. Those individuals were also associated with acts specific acts of terrorism, much of it directed at civlians, yet Israel elected them and their party.
Actually, those two groups had very little activity directed at civilians and you seemed to skip over the part where Israeli society was horrified, alienated them and compelled them to change their ways. It took Begin decades, and the catastrophic mistakes of the Left dominant parties in the ’73 War to get elected. Please stop googling.
Ben Gurion on transfer
“Regarding the TRANSFER of the Arabs. This is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that if the Arabs are removed this will improve their condition and not the contrary.”
Correcton it has a law against Jews married to ARabs moving to Israel and their kids becoming citizens.
Good correction. Changes things a bit, doesn’t it?
Me: That doesn’t actually contradict what I said. When they weren’t represented proporationally to their population. 90% of the seats were held by whites, according to the aparthied constitution, and the rest were reserved for coloreds blacks, they had little impact on the National Parliment or the Presidency. That is just the 8th grade level of reporting you find at many newspapers.
Jennifer, coloreds in South Africa are not blacks. They are people who are usually of Indian descent and have light brown skin. Blacks had no vote in South Africa. Period. I can’t believe I actually have to tell you this.
Arabs vote and serve in the Knesset in Israel. Period.
No I didn’t support the war. I also didn’t support one against the Solviets.
I wouldn’t boycott Israel if it weren’t for the money my government loans to it. I would gladly allow the natural processes to occure there too, but for the damage it does to my countries reputation.
Wrong colored were blacks and part blacks. Indians were considered Asians. Only Arab citizens serve in the Knesset. The Arabs on the west bank don’t and they are the majority. On the other hand many settlers do serve in the Knesset.
None of the settlers are like Hamas?
Here is an interview with Rabbi Meir Kahane where he talks openly of driving out all muslims, his admiration for Khomeni and his desire to establish a jewish theocracy. This is from pro kahane website by the way.
http://www.kahane.org/meir/interview.htm
Also JDL, the organization he founded proudly claims Baruch Goldstein.
You said many settlers.
I never said none.
I actually proposed about 1 to 2%. In fact, Kach, which was Kahane’s political party, couldn’t keep a seat in the Knesset because the Knesset purposely increased the minimum number of seats required for a party to qualify for the Knesset precisely to exclude these haters. That’s how small a minority they are. And note that you know Baruch Goldstein’s name because there are virtually no other Israelis like him.
“Harretz is also reporting that there is no succesor to Arafat right now. So what if the PLO charter wasn’t modified. It is a charter. Clearly it’s goals changed after Oslo. It was supposed to become defunct actually.”
Fatah is now under Kaddumi’s control.
I can’t believe what you just wrote about the Charter. It’s not just a piece of paper, Jennifer, it’s their ideology. It is their platform. Their behavior proves that they are sticking to that Charter. Read it some time, it’s an astonishingly antisemitic document and many of Arafat’s claims even at Camp David and in talks leading to Taba repeat the Charter’s claims.
So apparently you have no memory that all the houses in Philadelphi corridor were demolished to fiind holes were missles could apparenly be brought in. It was just a few months ago. Come on.
Absolutely. And it wasn’t for missiles only, it was for all types of arms. Recently they demolished homes that were near Qassem rocket launch areas. I giave clear reasons above as to the reasons the Israelis demolish certain homes, and they relate to the attacks and the war, not to collective punishment or a desire to transfer anybody.
quote from http://www.mideastweb.org/mandate.htm,/i>
This doesn’t tell us anything new, nor does it support your false assertions and excuses for the murder of Hebron Jews above.
Among the Israelis support for transfer is not uncommon. 64% for transferring out of Israel proper and 40% for transfer out of the West Bank. How is that different from Kach. You also have NRP, and UTJ and many members of Likud support it.
Ben Gurion on transfer
“Regarding the TRANSFER of the Arabs. This is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that if the Arabs are removed this will improve their condition and not the contrary.”
Jennifer, now I know you’re getting your info from biased sources either on Lefty or Pro-Palestinians sites.
That quotation comes from historian Benny Morris. As historian Ephraim Karsh proved conclusively, Morris took the quote and used it out of context to give it different meaning. Enjoy the read:
http://www.meforum.org/article/466
I’ve read their charter. It calls for a binational state, and was written when there wasn’t an option for a state on the West Bank. If Israel continues its stubborness, you’ll have a binational state anywy with or without the PLO. Arafat et all is just an excuse to maintain settlements. The Palestinians didn’t like the creation of Israel for obvious reasons and many of Israelis people want settlements or their wouldn’t be any, so you use their pissyness to create more of them instead of trying to heal the rift. Why are new houses being built if Israel doesn’t want them. It is always hardest to forgive those you have wronged. I can forgive the creation of the state and so can the Palestinians but it will never happen if Israel continues to grab more land and make them homeless.
TM You said; Absolutely. And it wasn’t for missiles only, it was for all types of arms. Recently they demolished homes that were near Qassem rocket launch areas. I giave clear reasons above as to the reasons the Israelis demolish certain homes, and they relate to the attacks and the war, not to collective punishment or a desire to transfer anybody.”
Then they do destroy entire neighborhoods of innocents to get the guilty. Also they buldozed alot of people without even putting in an evacuation order, which is why Amnesty got mad. Some were bulldozed without even an order to leave there houses.
Wrong colored were blacks and part blacks. Indians were considered Asians. Only Arab citizens serve in the Knesset. The Arabs on the west bank don’t and they are the majority. On the other hand many settlers do serve in the Knesset.
If blacks were allowed to vote, why were they oppressed? Why did Mandela and his buddies come into power only in the ’90s? Blacks couldn’t vote in South Africa.
Arabs in the West Bank can vote. They vote for the PA and they voted for Arafat. They are now preparing new elections. They don’t vote in Israel because they are not citizens. The “settlers” are Israeli citizens, no different than Americans who vote in elections while living abroad and passing those voting rights and citizenship to their foreign born children. Maybe the Americans should divest from investing in America.
Why does the IDF do nothing when settlers do things like this to Palestinians/
Settler shoots Palestinian Olive picker in front of IDF
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/487422.html
Settlers beat school children
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=58EB9083D39DFB7580256F390021323C
Blacks and Asians were oppressed because whites were allocated more power, as Jews are in Israel by not recognizing 80% of the Arabs as citizens.
The white branches of parliament could veto anything passed by the colored and asian parliamentarians. A;lso we know for a fact Asian were oppressed since the aparthied laws were against them as well. Explain this.
Among the Israelis support for transfer is not uncommon. 64% for transferring out of Israel proper and 40% for transfer out of the West Bank. How is that different from Kach. You also have NRP, and UTJ and many members of Likud support it.
You have your numbers off and flipped, but there is no question that many Israelis are talking about finding ways to encourage Palestinians to move. That is very different than forcing them to move and the pollster made that distinction in the language of her poll.
If you look at Israeli attitudes in 1999, you’d see they were completely different. A whole bunch of suicide bombings and snipings will do that to a population.
Jennifer, if you’ve read their charter, then you must have skipped over the part where they say there is no Jewish historical or religious connection to the land. Binational state, my ass.
You continue to blame Israel, calling it on its stubborness. Please read some history books. What stubborness? You mean when they agreed to divide the 20% left to them of their promised homeland by the British and the League of Nations? They agreed to divide in 1937, 1947 and 2000. The Arabs never agreed and we learn from Kaddoumi they still have not. Who is stubborn here? Why should Israel risk its existence to appease people who take joy holding art exhibitions of exploding body parts in their universities?
Okay, I give up. Blacks were allowed to vote in S. Africa, Israelis are evil, and crocodiles can fly.
Enjoy your hypocritical divestment, let us know when you plan to begin your divestment campaign from Syria and Saudi Arabia.
TM:” You have your numbers off and flipped, but there is no question that many Israelis are talking about finding ways to encourage Palestinians to move. That is very different than forcing them to move and the pollster made that distinction in the language of her poll.
If you look at Israeli attitudes in 1999, you’d see they were completely different. A whole bunch of suicide bombings and snipings will do that to a population.”
No they support transfer by force. Prove that they don’t. Also government coersion to leave wouldn’t exactly make Israel a society that threats all ethnic groups equally. Since nobody is coersing the Jews to leave.
TM: “Jennifer, if you’ve read their charter, then you must have skipped over the part where they say there is no Jewish historical or religious connection to the land. Binational state, my ass.”
Me: Read Dershowitz. He denies the Palestinians have any historical claims to Palestine based on a satire by Twain that calls the Holy Land a wastland, in “Innocence Abroad” and claims they are descedents of recent immigrents from surrounding countries. This sort of deniel of existence and history occurrs on both sides.
TM:”You continue to blame Israel, calling it on its stubborness. Please read some history books. What stubborness? You mean when they agreed to divide the 20% left to them of their promised homeland by the British and the League of Nations? They agreed to divide in 1937, 1947 and 2000. The Arabs never agreed and we learn from Kaddoumi they still have not. Who is stubborn here? Why should Israel risk its existence to appease people who take joy holding art exhibitions of exploding body parts in their universities?”
They intially rejected Israel. Since Israel required the forced transfer of 80% of them it is understandable. They have been compromizing since Oslo however so it is water under the bridge.
I was also hypocritical when I boycotted white dominated democracy south africa over Syria and Saudi Arabia.
No, you see, the numbers look high when the question is about encouraging them to leave as opposed to transfer.
http://tinylink.com/?CEoPOYFKss
However, you want evidence? Would the tripling of the Palestinian population in the Territories since 1967 suffice as evidence? Does a PM who pushes through unilateral separation from Gaza count as evidence? Oh, probably not, because that would be “transfer” of Jews.
So I guess somebody is coercing Jews to leave.
TM:”Jennifer, now I know you’re getting your info from biased sources either on Lefty or Pro-Palestinians sites.
That quotation comes from historian Benny Morris. As historian Ephraim Karsh proved conclusively, Morris took the quote and used it out of context to give it different meaning. Enjoy the read:
http://www.meforum.org/article/466“
“Morris is hardly a lefty since he advocates forced transfer of the remainder of Palestinians. Furthermore you source is just nitpicking. It says the purpose of the meeting was to decide “Whether to let refugees come back”, but then it admits that no decision was made, which was probably intentional. Israel often seems to put on these show inquireries while holding off the decision indefinately . Read the recent comments by Dov Wienglass on the purpose of the Gaza withdrawal. Actions in Israel often speak louder than words.
1. Dershowitz wrote Israel’s charter? Are you a troll?
2. Required the forced transfer of whom?! When?! (while you research that, please look into how many Jews live in Jordan, or were allowed to live in either the Jordanian occupied West Bank or the Egyptian occupied Gaza between 1948 and 1967 when Israel regained them).
3. Where have the Palestinians compromised since Oslo? What compromises have they made? Be specific and provide evidence. What have they given Israel. If yu want to claim that Kaddoumi is wrong about the Charter, I will need to see the modified Charter with clear evidence that it has been modified and the changes ratified by the Palestinian leadership. Then I’ll need to see what they have done to reach an accord with Israel. Be specific about how they were willing to compromise on key issues that would enable Israel to survive as a Jewish state, such as the so-called “right of return.”
Benny Morris is hardly a Lefty?! :ROFL:
Now I know you’re trolling. You provide a quotation from him and then when you’re called on it, you claim that a serious historian of some prominence is nitpicking and that Morris is hardly a Lefty?
Okay, on to your next confused point, Dov Weisglass. He spoke of the unilateral separation as a means of freezing the peace process and preventing further movement in the Road Map. He said that would be a consequence of the pullout from Gaza. How does that relate to your false Ben Gurion quote from the non-Lefty historian Morris?
Only Arab citizens serve in the Knesset. The Arabs on the west bank don’t and they are the majority.
Oh, the plot goes much deeper. Not only do the Arabs in the West Bank not serve in the Knesset: neither do in the Arabs in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Tanzania, Argentina, downtown Hong Kong, or the northwestern United States.
Fortunately, all of the Arabs living in those jurisdictions do have the right to vote — or not to vote, depending — for their own governments. So it goes in the West Bank, where Palestinian representatives are dispatched to this thing called the Palestinian Authority. Don’t tell anyone, but I’ve got a hunch that Shas and Likud won’t be allowed to run against Hamas in that particular election. I know, I know; apartheid. What can you do?
Kidding aside, the point is that the issue here is military occupation and the right of Palestinians to form a state on Palestinian land. You’re chooosing to advocate something very different, Jennifer — the Israeli annexation of Palestinian lands.
As we write, the PA is readying for new elections. These will be perhaps the most important elections in the history of this conflict if the winner actually wins an undisputed election.
60 years after World War II and the holocaust, the Nuremberg laws are being applied in most of the Arab world. Genocide of the Jewish people is part of the curriculum of many of the Arab school systems. The Arab world, which covers an area greater than Europe or USA, has large areas where it is forbidden for A jew to live.
The Palestinians fought with Nazi germany, their head, Sheikh Al Husseini stayed with Hitler in Berlin during WWII. For over 50 years before WWII, Palestinians attaccked Jews and carried out programs against Jews, even before there was Zionism.
Israel’s military might is self defense against the destructive desires of the Arab world.
Till this day, the Palestinians do not want a state BUT THE LIQUIDATION OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE IN THEIR HOMELAND.
Jordan is built on what was three quarters of historic Palestine (which comes from the Hebrew word invaders and was coined by the Romans). It is ruled and occupied by the Hashemites that come from Saudi Arabia. WHy don’t the Palestinians get that occupied part of Palestine back and leave us Jews alone. The fact is that they are solely interested in the destruction of the Jewish people.
Open your bibles and see that before there was any Western country, the Jewish people was living in Judea Samaria and it was the Europeans that put us into exile, where they and many other peoples persecuted us. Most of the Palestinian are Arabs that resettled in the 20th century from neighboring Arab coutnries when the Jews were in the process of developing the country.
You guys are a bunch of fucks. You are so stupid you’re not even worth arguing with.
To compare anything to the holocaust of the jews is doing a disservice to the jewish people especially those who died. To say that the holocaust was not a jewish holocaust and to speak of others who dies is folly at best. Read “Mein Kampf” by Adolf Hitler you uneducated baffoons. Try educating yourself and reading books before quoting meaningless statistics you got from your quasi pseudo intellectual columns to prove to yourself that you’re not a worthless little liberal who sips single malt scotches while preaching to everyone the ills of society and how superior you and your thinking is.
To speak of the “plight” of the palestinians? Come on what a joke. You can’t be serious. The people who attacked Jews all throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. The people who alligned themselves with hitler and sent troups to help hitler and the german army. The same people who attacked and murdered thousands of jews in 48, 56, and 67. The same people who cheered and waived pictures of Sadam Hussein during the first gulf war. The same people who have buttons, stickers, posters, and pins proudly displayed of suicide bombers. The same people who train there own people to blow themselves up to kill innocent civillians(yes the last attack was at a discotech where the oldest person killed was in their early 20’s, 50 teenagers maimed). And the same people who cheered and waived pictures of Osama Bin Laden the day the world trade centers went down killing 3000 Americans.
The Israelis by the way were the only country including America that took a day off the following day and put their flags at half mast. That’s right a day solidarity and mourning for the USA as only Jews would do afterall we are “a light unto the nations” and we brought morality to the world(again if you don’t believe me read “Mein Kampf” Hitler says the same thing.
You’re going to compare Israel who was the first country to send aid to the Tsunami victims. Jews to Arabs?!? Jews only 12-15million in the world make up more of everything then any other people. There is so many accomplishments that Jews and Israel has made to society it would be to much to list, but how about Einstein, Freud, Marks, Josephus, Milton Freidman, Maimonides, Nicholai Tesla(The reason we have Alternating Current instead of idiot anti-semite Edison(direct current)), many others, not to mention books like the Torah(greatest, best, most influential book ever). I don’t really need to write any more about this, if you haven’t gotten it yet then you’re more of a moron then I thoght.
Ooooh the PA is going to have election…well they had them with two terrorist acts to follow. Why?!? Because the Israeli in their stupidity let their guard down in believing that the new regime has good intentions. Well I say screw em.
Here’s the solution. Take all the Palestinians put them in a bus and drop them on the other side of the Jordan river in Jordan(it’s nicer then the mediteranian afterall we are jews and shouldn’t be to cruel). That’s it, end of story, done.
Instant peace. You want to transfer people from their homes?!? Transfer the arabs not the Jews. Anybody who argues with this point is an anti-semite and I don’t really care what you think. Don’t bother to respond to this post unless you’re educated about the issues, it’s not worth my time.
Moshe Rabeinu