as long as we’re on the Vatican:
“The bitter, long-running controversy over the attitude of Pope Pius XII to the Holocaust has taken a new turn with the publication of diaries that prove he opposed the return of Jewish children to their parents after the Nazis’ defeat.”

Pius XII barred Jewish children returning home
by Peter Popham, The Independent [UK]

I would like to request that you maintain a degree of civility and distance when discussing these topics, and that you stop personalizing these issues in the manner in which you do.”
First, i find it quite ironic, that a highly volatile person, such as mobi, who calls people “moron” and tells them to “fuck off” at the first sign of disagreement, is now calling for civility.
I have seen instances when posters were merely attacking the CONTENT of mobis posts and mobi starting whining how these posters seemed “way” too obsessed with him, and were somehow out to get him. Could it be, mobi, that some people actually dont agree with you, and like to correct you when you cite and espouse incorrect or misleading information (in fact, mobi will probably cite to this post to demonstrate that i am obsessed with him, not realizing that everything i am writing is relevant to the very post this comment is addressing). The world isnt out to get you. Pointing out your inconsistencies and Hippocratic self-righteousness is very relevant to the discussions on your blog-considering youre the author.
Even if mobi were to claim that it isnt he who usually instigates the personal insults (a claim that wouldnt be true), there is still no reason for mobi to respond to every single insult with personal attacks and far more insults. Its very telling when the person who is consistently calling for civil discourse will turn his site into a wwf steel cage match at the hint of a personal attack. You need to show more control and restraint, something you have claimed you would work on in the past, but never have.
Also, mobi has to realize that he is the owner of this site, and as such, cannot hold himself to the same standards as people who drop by and leave comments. Mobi, if you want this cite to maintain civil discourse, the burden is on you, not the readers of the blog. Stop worrying about all the readers; you have to be above the fray.
Last, whether or not your posts reflect your own personal views, you have to realize that many of these views are extreme in nature, and are likely to cause a strong reaction. Instead of addressing these strong reactions with “go fuck yourself” you should attempt to be even more civil and try to respond on point to the criticism, no matter how offensive, and not let your temper get the best of you. Specifically addressing the comment-ers points is the bet way to avoid personal insults.
I, on the other hand, see no need for civility or manners, so to you, my friend, i say, go fuck yourself!

“….but to fire back when fired upon, in roughly the same manner.”
Or G_d willing, in the IDF’s case, with a little less concern for the likes of the John Brown’s of the world.

“Hippocratic self-righteousness”
I didn’t know Mobius was a physician. I would think that one who calls himself “LSAT 178” wouldn’t rely so heavily on spellcheck.
That said, Mobius is a fucking, snuggly, fuzzy-wuzzy, hypocrite. Keep up the good work!

Also mobi, this site seems to work pretty well the way it has been going thus far. I see no reason why you would want to change it.
What makes blogs successful, usually isnt the actual posts, but the quality and quantity of the comments.
I think to many, having in-your-face, personal arguments is actually a draw, and makes this site more entertaining. Changing this dynamic may actually hurt the site, and make it more boring.
Now go bring me some food, bitch.

Hey LSAT, spelling isn’t really the point is it? It seems you didn’t recognize the difference between a “hypocrite” and the “Hippocratic Oath.” That’s a semantic distinction. (Although your error no doubt owes itself to the fact that the words are *near* homophones despite being distinct words.) Your error is humorous because you go out of your way to advertise an alleged high score on a standardized test in your nic. Then, you make a stupid vocabulary mistake. The fact that you were “caught” using spellcheck further reveals the lengths that an insecure person (you) goes to prove his intelligence! Then everything is extra funny too because you are (really) stupid!
You appear very foolish indeed, my friend!
Ha ha!

Mobius: what J and Shtreimel said — congrats. Seems you’re building quite a following here in Montreal…

You have already posted several comments regarding a spellcheck/grammer mistake.
If harping on this matter makes you feel better about your failure of a life, be my guest.
In fact, you should read my above comments again, you may find some juicy typos and possibly even *gasp* a syntax error.
You are indeed a retarded fucker and a pathetic one at that.

LSAT 178 check out my new nic!

“Please write something else so that we can all laugh at you.”
brilliant, can I use that in the future?

8opus wrote: Seems you’re building quite a following here in Montreal…
Bitch. I own Montreal! Montreal is Jewlicious country! Hosti de caulliss de tabarnac …
En tout cas, joyeux anniversaire Jewschool, t’cha deux ans mais j’veux t’emboiter quand meme …

And to Asaf, John Brown and all the other Indymedia droolers, I present this:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1104291019042
Of course, they’ll pass this off as Zionist/IDF propaganda. Or they’ll state that in the long run the blood will flow. However it seems to me that the security barrier, targeted killings, Sharon and the death of worlds most famous terrorist have humbled the Palestinians. Or at least are making them ponder the fact that Israel is a reality…at least for the next 50-100 years.

the catholic church is made up mostly of a bunch of europeans, i say go nuke’em all.
well maybe before we nuke it we can sneak into the vaitcan vaults a “steal” the rambam’s manuscripts and the the menorah from the second temple.
after that we nuke europe back to the stone age where it belongs.
“the nation of israel lives”

I do not like Europe, but elder punk of zion’s statements are ignorant and inflammatory. Although I am sure he is exaggerating his position, he should reconsider. First, to demonstrate his ignorance, the Catholic Church includes many Latino and Asian members. Second, no matter how bad Europe may be, this kind of animus towards Europe does not help. It is not going anywhere, and we need to address what to do given that fact.

First, to elder, genocide includes exterminating an entire people for the crimes of a few. The Catholic Church has a history of criminal acts against Jews. However, the current Church does not continue this criminal activity. Certainly, its members should not be murdered for the crimes of some of their ancestors.
Furthermore, the modern church trends toward favoring Jews. Unlike many churches on the Left (Presbyterian or Anglican) or on the Right (Federated and Assemblies of God), as an official matter, the Catholic Church does not seek to convert, demonize, or delegitimize Judaism. Those trends were reversed beginning in the 1960s Have you even looked at the ADLs piece at http://www.adl.org/PresRele/VaticanJewish_96/4607_96.htm ?
Secondly, I noticed an interesting piece on the ADL page at http://www.adl.org/PresRele/VaticanJewish_96/4617_96.htm and http://www.adl.org/adl.asp . As of this posting, the first link does not appear on the ADLs homepage at the second link. It did appear there this morning. I wonder if the ADL is hesitant to give front page coverage of this issue. Perhaps the ADL is fearful that people like elder will take the news the wrong way and paint the entire Catholic faith with resposibility that primarily belongs on the editors of the L’Osservatore Romano. Clearly elder has stereotypically painted the Catholic faith in this way.
Elder needs to remember that the Bible reminds the Jews among us that sins of the father are not the sins of the son. Indeed, it is a Jewish notion that one cannot atone for the sins of another. That is why Jesus could not have died for our sins. It is important to our Jewish identity that we not cast moral blame on the current members of the Catholic faith for the sins of past generations. If elder wants to take that path, he should accept that it is a Christian path and he should seriously consider accepting Jesus as the messiah. However, I would recommend that elder accept Jewish values and not look so highly on Christian ones.

Regarding the Vatican statment, it seems the problem was not with the Vatican paper, but rather with Catholic World News, which grossly (and suspiciously) mistranslated it. The other news services picked up the story from them.
See http://tinylink.com/?mCdqatwNyz
and http://tinylink.com/?qvtvITopmJ at Yourish.com

Elder, so to whom should such items be ‘returned’ if the Vatican has them? The State of Israel? The URJ? JewSchool.com? It is unfortunate that the Vatican may have taken Jewish artifacts, but the victims of such crimes are in the past. You and I are no more victims of such crimes than we are of Egyptian enslavement of the biblical Jews. Should Egypt compensate someone for the revenues it receives from pyramid tourism? Reconciliation might lead to some sort of repatriation of Jewish artifacts by the Vatican, but such will only come with improved dialogue. Your Catholic-baiting slurs are no better than some people’s obsessions with blaming all Jews for the occasional and usually historical crimes of Israel. It is neither productive nor a way to reconcile our differences with others.

The Catholic News Service apparently improperly translated the original story. See the correction here:
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=34348
It is because of our misunderstanding and the fact that too many of us see these things through crap-colored lenses that we rush to condemn other faiths. Our criticism appears unwarranted here.

I agree that a translator at CNS needs a job reassignment, and they need to reverify their procedures for story clearance. But, that is a different problem than the one we were discussing.

Elder, answer which charges? If the Vatican is holding Jewish artifacts, that is unfortunate, but is not a wrong against any living person. Identify for me exactly who is victimized by the Vatican’s possession of such artifacts. Wrongs against my ancestors are not wrongs against me. I believe it would be an excellent goodwill gesture for the Vatican to give Israel its Jewish artifacts. But, the State of Israel does not have a rightful legal claim to such artifacts. Similarly, Palestinians who fled Israel have no rightful claim to the property they abandoned. The legal concept to describe such transfers is adverse possession. It is a legal concept that is part of the law of most developed nations. In developed nations, adverse possession is a valid method of obtaining property even against the living prior owners. Maimonides’ writing belonged to him just over 800 years ago, and I suspect they were obtained hundreds of years ago by the Catholic Church. Similar possession timeframes likely exist for the menorah from the second Temple. The prior owners of these possessions are long dead. That there is an ambigous group people who claim cultural descent from the persons wronged does not give them a claim against the current possessor. Must the US return all land in the US to native American tribes?
Must Israel return all Arab land obtained (from the landholders, not the warring nations) in the 1948 and 1967 wars? Must England return the rosetta stone and other artifacts to Egypt? Only if you answer yes to all of these and argue that their continued possession of such things is criminal can you maintain your position on the Vatican. In any event, the “continuing crimes” of the Vatican are so minor compared to historical wrongs of Britain, Russia, Ukraine, the Catholic Church, Germany and many others, that to hold such contempt for the modern Catholic Church and current Pope ignores the tremendous progress that has been made in Vatican-Jewish relations. Did you ever look at http://www.adl.org/PresRele/VaticanJewish_96/4607_96.htm and the other material at ADL? That this is my third posting of the site and you have failed to address it shows that you, not I, are failing to “answer the charges.” Additionally, if you look at my 01/02/05 04:50pm post, you’ll see that this is merely an expansion of that post.
On your point regarding centralization, it is not an issue. Membership in a faith does not equal consent to all its actions. My citizenship in the US certainly does not equal my acceptance of all US policy. I take issue with certain aspects of each movement in Judaism. Can I not be a Jew or a member of a movement without total adherence to the principles of that movement? Additionally, organizations change with time. Temporal schism is not required for a faith to renew itself. If the Catholic Church reversed its misguided policies, it should not be judeged by the policies it discards. That you so easily generalize the crimes of a few across time and across the entire membership of the Catholic Church is intolerant.
Acknowledge the good changes that the Catholic Church has made. It is only because Jews have worked with Catholics to repair relations that the Catholic Church has done so well in improving its view of us.

If the Vatican rightfully acquired Rambam’s papers (through money or donations) there’s nothing wrong with their havingvthem in their possession. If they were acquired through force/corruption (the way they acquired young Jewish Holocaust victims)…I don’t know…
Just because something happened a long time ago doesn’t mean it’s dead. Should we not mourn those who died in the Crusades as much as we mourn those who died by Hitler’s hand? How many brilliant, beautiful (as in inside) people have we lost because of a concentration of power into the hands of a corrupt people?
I think what Elder Punk isvsaying is that that concentration of power is sick and should be nuked (but he/she’s probably a bit immature in his/her views) because the Vatican is that power and if they would do things right that issue with the anti-Israel statement would not have been an issue.
I don’t know where I’m going with this…
I do just want to point out to Yisrael that there is certain Jewish Consciousness a Jew has. Some Jews feel it stronger than others and the reasons for why are not based in anything I can figure out. It’s just a feeling you get and a sense you have. So, my dear Yisrael, you either get what Elder’s saying or you don’t.
And Elder, you’re a fanatical nut.

Brownsville, I think I basically agree with what you say. As for Jewish consciousness, I think I understand. Although I am fully modern, and theologically liberal, I fear too much assimilation, the damage caused by intermarriage, too much activism from the Reform movement on what are to me non-religious grounds, too little focus on Arab anti-semitism, too little focus on non-Holocaust Jewish history … when I was approached by a “Jew” for Jesus in NY this summer, my wife replied curtly, “I used to be Catholic and I am converting to Judaism.” I was proud. (Maybe that is why I am a “push over.”) Judaism and the Jewish people receive priority for me, and when I give to others, I make sure it is through Jewish organizations to ensure that the people see that Jews are trying to do good in the world. Even so, in my rhetoric and analysis, this is not always seen. G-d gave all men reason, and so reason is not Judeo-centric except when dealing specifically with Jewish subjects. Justice and tolerance, which we have discussed here, are important to Judaism, but like reason are accessible to all.
Elder, I appreciate your zeal. However, I assure you I am no pushover. I own firearms for the purpose of defending my life, the lives of my family and the lives of the Jewish people. Perhaps this gives me perspective on what is most important, Jewish survival, and what is less important, a few Jewish artifacts. I have no interest in inciting people to hate us, even if I know that their incitement is irrational. There are many Catholics in the world. Most of them will never rise to the level we would hope. But we can focus on helping them to see why they should help us when Jewish survival is threatened. Vatican II was a huge step in Catholic acceptance of Jews. The Catholc Church took the steps under Vatican II despite the fact that it threatened, and to a lesser degree actually caused, schism. We can only hope for further steps through dialogue and reconciliation. When I was younger, I perceived every minor injustice as a grave one. I have learned that those notions are better saved for some future messianic age. Unfortunately, we have far to go before that age is reached. Until then, it is important that we focus the real threats in the world. A culturally important artifact in the possession of the Catholic Church is not a real threat. However, the support of the Catholic Church for the Jewish people and Jewish survival gives us real support against real threats. By way of example, “Jews” for Jesus is a threat even though it has none of the horrible history of the Catholic Church. It is a real threat because its goal is to destroy Judaism and the Jewish people. The Catholic Church is formally opposed to targeting Jews for conversion. It respects that we have a covenant with G-d and shares our concerns regarding intermarriage. That makes the modern Catholic Church and many of its members our allies, despite the very evil wrongs the historical Catholic Church comitted against Jews. That the Catholic Church accepts our covenant with G-d gives us tremendous power (both political and rhetorical) against the protestant Christians who do not recognize our covenant. That is reason enough for me to work with Catholics towards reconciliation.

Elder, it is not that I think you are wrong. I just don’t think that your perspective is productive. I believe my perspective will achieve results with Catholics while yours will leave them unnecessarily pissed off. Perhaps that is your intent?

browngirl
get a life!!
yisrael
great so we’ve got it boiled down to simple perspectives, thanks.
you claim that your perspective will achieve results. well my first suggestion of nuking them would wipeout the heart of the catholic religion and thus in all likelyhood solve the whole problem. lol relax, im kidding. however this approach that you and many others take has yet to achieve any substantial results (a handshake means nothing see oslo for more on that one). just kissing their asses wont make them like us! it will only make it more apparent to them that we are weak, scared and uncomfortable. we are a better people then they are and we dont need their love more than anyone elses. i simply dont care if theyre pissed off, and there is no reason to care. if some hypothetical group were to treat u better if u walked in the gutter with your head down would u do that? is that the result u want? what do we get in return? their love? what is their love worth?? no terribly much i would think, not unless it is proven to be true through substansive gestures and changes.
i guess we could extend a hand. but that would have to be tentative to their asking forgiveness for their current and past sins and then their truly ceasing any ill activities. and yes the little things do say a lot.

yisrael,
i personally never saw the passion. however its anti-semetic potential was apparently just hot air.
i like your notion of olive branch with Uzi diplomacy, or was it “speak softly and carry a big stick”?
however does being nice mean kissing up and taking crap?
the mere fact that while they in their speech they are seemingly respectful and in their actions they are to the contrary is a contradiction that should raise questions. wether this transgression is of current importance or not is irrelevant. it comes to prove that the chruch does not mean what it says. unless they can vouch for their statements through the reliabilty of their actions, they are a bunch of liars waiting to stab us in the back. as jewish history should teach us, in the real world everyone is guilty until proven innocent. anything to the contrary would be naive. this may not be the case in inter-personal relationships, but in inter-societal relationships it must be the approach. i think this is the crux of my argument as it has developed over the course of our conversation.
as I have held for the entire discussion, the catholic church is a bunch of no gooders who WILL stab us in the back if we take their assurances to seriously without proof of action to back their promises up! the catholic church is seemingly out to further its own interests, not the interests of anyone else! please dont ever forget tht unless u have to proof to the contrary which i would like to hear if available. let me reiterate that when i say the catholic church i am refering to the hierarchy which leads up to the pope, i am not attacking the average good citizen who is a member of the catholic religion.