A World Without Israel
Foreign Policy invites you to
Imagine that Israel never existed. Would the economic malaise and political repression that drive angry young men to become suicide bombers vanish? Would the Palestinians have an independent state? Would the United States, freed of its burdensome ally, suddenly find itself beloved throughout the Muslim world? Wishful thinking. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains more antagonisms than it causes.
Read on… (c/o Josh)
You see, what folks can’t seem to grok is that I agree with both this piece and the one just beneath which I’ve had my ass handed to me for labeling ‘astute.’ Is it so difficult for people to understand that I don’t deny the prevalance and historic nature of Arab rejectionism, Palestinian culpability for their hand in the conflict, Israel’s right and need to secure itself, etc., while simultaneously believing that the intentions of Israel’s government with regards to the creation of a Palestinian state are anything but genuine and that the policies currently in place are exacerbating the problem as opposed to contributing to its alleviation? Why must things be so black and white that one can not accept that in some cases, both Israel and the Palestinians are right, and in some cases, both of them are wrong? And why must I be branded with one epiteth after another for saying so, and beaten into a “with us or against us” corner? Not that this has much to do with the content of this article specifically. But really, why can’t there be a position which says the Islamic world has serious issues it needs to address and that Israel can do a better job of handling itself in response to these issues? Is taking such a position really that absurd?
I love that sentiment Mobius, Hunker down, weather the storm – your approach is THE approach for right minded people in my book.
However what we are all up against is the “my country – right or wrong”mentality.
Mobius stand your ground, shuffle awkwardly when needed, what you say sounds to me like common sense.
The words “”my country – right or wrong”” written by Sir Cecil Spring-Rice in 1918, were “totally heretical” because they suggested that people should pledge their allegiance to their country before God.
It’s a prevalent emotion and phrase invoked by US Servicemen in Iraq.
Another article to muddy the water, so to speak
“Clash Of Civilizationsâ€
I generally agree with Mobius’ point here. The only problem is that when taking such a view, it is suprising to see how heated Mobius can be about his position. I think Mobius’ message should be toned down to encourage moderation on both sides. Too often, it simply enrages both sides. But, this is a different problem than simply being wrong.
i’d like you to show me where in any of my discussions since jan 1 that i’ve gotten heated at all
Madge appears to suffer not only from the-victim-is-always-good syndrome (see the thread on Abbas), but also from the pro-Israel-side-is-best-represented-by-a-straw-man syndrome. The blather she links to above has no problem stereotyping Israelis while categorically white-washing Palestinians. That Madge thinks such an article is post-worthy indicates 1) the bias she harbors, 2) the low-quality of evidence she accepts, 3) the value of her point of view (low), and 4) the kind of response she usually deserves (an analysis of why she takes the views she does rather than directly addressing her points).
So, Madge, why the hatred of Israel? Are you anti-semitic? Are you a communist who always presumes the “powerful” are guilty of crimes against humanity? Did you have a bad experience with Jews growing up? Are you just an angry college student with too much time, and sufficiently spoiled that improving yourself seems meaningless? What can we do to help you?
When you saddle support for both sides you tend to find yourself attacked by both sides who want you to be more ‘loyal’ also sometimes you find yourself thinking out loud like in a real diary only with a real diary loads of people from all over the world aren’t dissecting what you wrote or possibly what you wrote when you were pissed off about something else.
I used to have a t-shirt that read “Whatever I say today I may retract or apologise for tomorrow”
Very useful when I was down the pub.
It’s also wretched writing about how you feel and then feeling like you have to justify it to everyone. Still that’s bloglife.
But really, why can’t there be a position which says the Islamic world has serious issues it needs to address and that Israel can do a better job of handling itself in response to these issues? Is taking such a position really that absurd?
Erm, no; it’s the obvious position. I think the disagreement follows when the stories you link to take a quite different position: there’s nothing reasonable about the overheated rhetoric of a Lawrence of Cyberia, for instance.
I thought Lawrence of Cyberia’s article was astute in many ways, though flawed in others. Playing the UN resolution card is problematic, for example, because of the many anti-Israel, and some would argue, anti-Semitic, resolutions that we have seen.
The danger for Mobius, and other left-leaning Jews (myself included), is that of making a moral equivalency between the crimes of the Israeli government and those of Hamas, for example. It is important for Israel to give up land for a (viable, contiguous) Palestinian state. But to say that the occupation, which is a political necessity given that there is no Palestinian government which can control the terrorist orgs, is morally equivalent to blowing up buses, is wrong and dangerous.
The double standard that is applied to Israel (of which Mobius is aware, and to which he alludes often) is the problem. In any conflict there are wrongs on both sides. The trick is to keep them in perspective.
Nobody is attacking your for seeing both sides of the issue, I in particular handed you your ass if you will because you referred to an extrememly one-sided and radical webiste and article and called it, “one of the most astute assessments of the current state of conflict” you’ve read.
You aren’t being honest with yourself if you think the problem is that your loyal readership can’t grok your point of view, the problem is you are not groking yourself (that sounds strangely autoerotic).
Of course one can view both sides, many of us do. But you also have to be honest with yourself and realize that at many junctions the pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel camps have necessarily opposing views. Playing Pollyanna does no good for anyone, and only prolongs this conflict. Don’t link to a website that celebrates such groups as the ISM and If Americans Only Knew and then proclaim it to be anything approaching middle ground. Have you ever had a conversation with Allison Weir of IAOK? Or anyone from ISM? They are serious wackos.
These aren’t folks who have any interest in a peace defined as a 2 state solution with justice for both sides. To pretend anything other will result in continued servings of ass sandwich to you fro the peanut gallery.
B’teavon.
Seeing both sides of things is important– we need to see Zionism as a continuing project to create the best possible Jewish society.
But still, if you understand Palestinian culpability (as you claim to), then you can’t possiby regard that last article as astute, because it entirely rejects that.
I understand your frustration with Israeli gov’t policy, but Israel has to be run with some odd balance of Jewish ethos and real politik. You are very frustrated with housing demolitions, etc, but try to understand why they happen, or why Israel says they must happen. Then find an alternative, because nothing will stop unless Israel sees a *proactive* way to achieve its security goals alternatively. And no, JB and Asaf, running away will not help Israel achieve its security goals, so please don’t pick a fight with me. This is for Dan.
Tisrael
I’ll take it as read that you didn’t like the article.
Your post reads almost like an inversion of what I wroteon the Abbas thread:
“Yisrael you make too many assumptions about me – I assume nothing of the sort. I do however question the neat way in which you make the Palestinians responsible for everything, and the state of Israel responsible for (seemingly) nothing. ”
which in turn was prompted by your summary of what Palestine is like:
“She does not realize that if left alone, Palestinians would be best off by joining militant groups. In a place without a system of justice, like Palestine, thugs prevail. Your choice in such an environment is to join the thugs or oppose them. Rational people live as friends of thugs rather tan die as the enemies of thugs.”
I am well aware that not all Israelis are the same – that there are many positions, from extreme right to far left.
In terms of your own position, it would be interesting if you could explain what you think the effects of the Occupation of Palestine and the accompanying denial of basic human rights have on that society.
Anyway, let me address your questions quickly before I go out:
“why the hatred of Israel? ”
I’m not aware that I have a hatred of Israel – I do how however have serious concerns about the Occupation, and about how the difficulties can be resolved. I don’t think very highly of Ariel Sharon either.
“Are you anti-semitic? ”
No. I think it is absurd to hate someone because of the circumstances of their birth .
“Are you a communist who always presumes the “powerful” are guilty of crimes against humanity?”
I’m certainly not a communist. I am pretty sceptical of power though. But I don’t always presume guilt.
” Did you have a bad experience with Jews growing up? ”
Quite the contrary, I had very positive experiences.
“Are you just an angry college student with too much time, and sufficiently spoiled that improving yourself seems meaningless? ”
Nope, I’m not a college student. Nor would I consider myself spoiled.
“What can we do to help you?”
I wasn’t aware that I had requested help?
Finally, I should ask you one question about yourself.
Are you always inclined to stereotype people?
Thanks.
But really, why can’t there be a position which says the Islamic world has serious issues it needs to address and that Israel can do a better job of handling itself in response to these issues? Is taking such a position really that absurd?
And that’s why I read this blog. Here, here!
A big problem with the state of Zionism today is the idea held by some of us that Israel can somehow ultimately triumph militarily, economically, culturally, and to a certain extent theologically, over Arab-Muslim regimes that depend on the demonization of Israel in order to sustain the insecurity of their people, and provide the “protection” they need against the Zionist entity.
However, since we are dealing with a geographical area consisting of 22 sovereign states (limiting our count only to Israel’s Arab neighbors), besides asserting the national self-determination of the Jewish people in their historic homeland, Zionism’s ultimate success depends on Israel’s social, economic, political and cultural integration into this predominantly Arab neighborhood with its own Jewish identity intact.
A certain amount of internecine tension is bound to develop as this is the sort of problem we have so far been unable to either shoot or talk our way out of.
“My country, right or wrong,” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother, drunk or sober.”
— G. K. Chesterton (1874 – 1936)
“The danger for Mobius, and other left-leaning Jews (myself included), is that of making a moral equivalency between the crimes of the Israeli government and those of Hamas…The double standard that is applied to Israel (of which Mobius is aware, and to which he alludes often) is the problem.” – mad chalupa
Bingo…Hello…ring the bell…give the boy a prize.
And that’s what pushes me over the edge with Brown/Asaf, and at times, Mobius’ choice of posts. I get hot under the collar when my Jewish friends, usually Orthodox, see all things Muslim/Arab as evil and backwards. I get even more riled when they talk about OUR approach to govt, entertainment, commerce, etc., as somehow being “better” for them. Better? You mean the way every 3rd person I speak to is either taking an MOA or SSRI to combat anxiety and/or depression. Wow, what a society we have. So the truth has always been somewhere in the middle. It’s true in our own lives, it’s true in the geo-political sphere. And every now and again, we have to deal with sociopath…personally and as a community. During those times, we should lose the middle ground approach.
Hey JB,
I like the quote. And I even agree with the sentiment.
Madge, I try to limit my stereotyping of people, particularly in public. However, sterotypes are sometimes useful, for example person with an Iron Cross tattoo is more likely to engage in acts of violence against me, and so I should be prepared to defend myself or flee as needed when in the presence of such a person. Is this a stereotype? Yes, but it helps me live a better life. If you are a communist, an antisemite, coddle terrorists, or express other such views, my stereotypes about such persons helps me in the way that I should handle myself around you.
My questions are just questions. I am just trying to better understand your animus against Israel, and address that. I think our disagreement is more about your psychology than what is happening in the middle east. You note about me, “I do however question the neat way in which you make the Palestinians responsible for everything, and the state of Israel responsible for (seemingly) nothing.” Why do you think this about me? Is this a stereotype?
In your view, does one who defend Israel automatically find Israel blameless? What do you think Palestinians would do if Israel simply stopped all military and police operation in the territories? Why do you think Palestinians would respond that way? Do you respond to weak people by coddling them? Do you think most people respond similarly? Do you think the weak people are targeted by thugs for abuse? With your answer in mind, is it better for Israel to be weaker or stronger?
Yisrael
Stereotypes are about labelling people and responding to them according to the label. I think they’re a pretty bad idea.
I don’t know if a person who defends Israel finds Israel blameless, I’m sure that it varies from person to person. I have no idea what Palestinians would do if Israel stopped all military activity in the Occupied Territories, but its hardly a realistic prospect, is it? Do you think Palestinians are weak people? Your questions seem to be about your assumptions, rather than mine.
Is there any chance of your answering the question about how you think Occupation and the attendant human rights abuses affect Palestinian society?
Yay, it’s “madge”! Sullying up more blogs with “her” sagacious musings! I guess I’m not the only Palestinian Jew you’ve rubbed the wrong way, eh Robin?
No, your position is not absurd, Mobius.
The occupation (the Israeli, and before it Jordanian, and before it British, and before it Turkish, and before it …) and attendant human rights abuses negatively impact Palestinian society. The alternatives are much worse. You admit in your post that you are ignorant about the effects of the alternatives. So again, what is it about you that makes you so angry about Israel’s problems. What are you posting on websites about Sudanese, Syrian, Saudi, Russian, Turkish, Zimbabwean … abuses? What is it about you that makes you focus so much antagonism on Israel? Do you have an obsession with Jews? Do you have an obsession with Arabs who hate Jews? Why are you so focused on the things Jews in Israel do wrong?
Does anyone else here have any insight into Madge’s psychology, and what makes her think from such a skewed perspective?
One more thought, Madge, I am a Jew, a convert, a libertarian, a man, an Iowan, a lawyer, a woman’s husband, a heterosexual, white, a young adult. These are labels. People who respond to me in the context of these labels usually respond more effectively. They are not utilizing “a pretty bad idea.” You can recognize the labels that apply to people without degrading them.
What labels apply to you? Wouldn’t disclosing those labels help me communicate with you?
madgenoon, in Arabic, means crazy, in case some people didn’t know. (no commentary, really, I wasn’t following… just stating)
“The alternatives are much worse.”
Really? It is better to be occupied than not to be occupied?
I find that a little hard to believe.
It is better to not be occupied than not, ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL. But of course, not all else will remain equal. Here’s a reasonable hypothetical result from a (not so reasonable) alternative course of action:
Israel withdraws. (note no occupation) Militant Palestinian elements are emboldened by their perceived victory. Fatah shifts towards greater militancy and Hamas increases its strength. This shift alone imperils economic activity in Gaza and the West Bank. Palestinians are poorer. The shift in Palestine, in addition to a reciprocal shift in Israel result in a minor attack turning into all out war. Most Palestinians are driven from Gaza and the West Bank or killed. Israeli casualties are substantial. Occupation resumes and EVERYONE IS WORSE OFF.
This is just one hypothetical that shows that ending the occupation might be worse for Palestinians. You have to deal with the situation that exists.
To return to the real issue, how old are you? Are you well educated? Is it possible that you simply lack the maturity to fathom the consequences of your proposals? Help me understand you.
“To return to the real issue, how old are you? Are you well educated? Is it possible that you simply lack the maturity to fathom the consequences of your proposals? Help me understand you.”
I don’t understand how that’s the “real issue,” but I can field this one.
“Madge Noon” is 42+ years old. Immature, no. Crazy? By his-her own admission. He-she is seemingly unemployed and, subsequently, has the free time to engage in prolific trolling. How’s your website coming along, Maggie? Can I get a “from the river to the sea”? How about a “what? what?”
Take down yours, and I’ll take down mine, Robin 🙂
http://www.robintheclown.blogspot.com
When a person views the world through colored lenses, and doesn’t understand why the rest of the world does not see what she sees, the problem is with the person and their lenses, not the things she sees. Madge Noon’s mental issues are the real issues, because she and her lenses prevent her from seeing what we see.
I’ll admit, I have see the world through lenses too, but I know how to take mine off as appropriate.
Yisrael — there is a Jewschool policy re: making personal attacks on a person as opposed to dealing with the issues they’re raising. Either address Madge Noon’s statements or leave him alone. If you think he’s a troll, then ignore him, don’t make ad hominem attacks. Consider this your first notice.
I don’t think arguing on the comments section and responding to people’s comments counts as trolling.
I agree with Sam. But what is considered trolling anymore?
I don’t know if I agree with the idea of ignoring the delegitimization of Israel, but the article certainly points up a big problem.
While I disagree with many aspects of Israeli policy, the campaign to deligitimize Israel itself has hitched a big ride on those issues, and it is now considered intellectually OK once again to proffer the “one state solution” to question the legitimacy of Israel, a member state of the UN, and the right of the Jews to self determination. Type >> ZIONISM Zionism with links to the Wikipedia article and several others that I consider to be legitimate accounts of Zionism. Please link to that page and to the pages linked from it.
Thanks,
Ami Isseroff
Trying again – The URL for the Zionism page is
http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm or
Zionism .
Hope this one works.
Ami Isseroff