Former Chief Rav Claims Tsunami God's Punishment For Disengagement
Hey HT—You wanna know why leftists say the nasty things they do about hareidim? Get a load of this:
The tsunami that ravaged southern Asia last month was God’s punishment for world support for Israel’s plan to withdraw from the Gaza Strip, a former chief rabbi has claimed.
“When the Holy One, Blessed be He, is angry with the nations of the world that don’t help Israel — but want to evacuate and disengage, and interfere in our affairs and harm us — then the Holy One, Blessed be He, claps his hands in sadness, and this causes the quake,” former Israeli Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliahu told the ultra-Orthodox Ma’ayanei Hayeshua magazine.
wow thats a reason for a civil right there.
“civil war”
Why do ‘leftists’ care so much what haredim say?
If these statements were really so ridiculous, should ‘enlightened’ people just ignore it and go on with their lives?
or maybe they actually entertain the thought that it might be true, that there might be a spiritual reason behind natural occurences, and that God controls the universe?
josh – because it reflects badly on the rest of us
It’s a gemara.
So stop being Jewish.
Because that’s what your whole religion is based on.
He’s a million trillion percent right. G-d controls the world. My rebbe who makes thousands of girls religious said the same quote from gemara. Those rabbanim are the only ones with enough um chutzpah to say the truth, you should look at them with respect instead of trying to beg for love from goyim who will hate you anyway.
“josh – because it reflects badly on the rest of us – John Brown”
Now that’s rich.
To be sung to the Tune of Frank Sinatra’s “Ain’t that a Kick in the Head”
TSUNAMI IN AZA
how wonderful it would be
da doo da doo
if there was a tsunami
da doo da doo
all the arabs would go
into the ocean they’d floooow
ahmad was screamin’ kill the jew
da doo da doo
suddenly the sky turned blue
da doo da doo
as blue as the sea
now he screams “Allah help me”
and they’ll be swimmin
then I’m-a gonna be
grinnin
cause there will be no more
killin
of me and mine-life is honna be beeeyootiful
wake up to a tourist’s dream
da doo da doo
the beach is so nice and clean
no more of that hamas plo islamic jihad sceeeeeeeeeene
ooooh
didja hear that muazzin
give out that bloodcurdling scream
Israel doesn’t have to live in fear
cuz Aza City’s no longer here
cause of that
great
big
tsu
na
miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
Holy Terror: My rebbe who makes thousands of girls religious…
One assumes he does this by injection.
yep, injection of love, kindness, and a good dose of wake-up calls.
google neve yerushalayim
I was thinking more along the lines of hot beef.
wow, trying to degrade a rav for all to see, I’m glad I’m not you when your payback time comes.
“Payback?” What kind of retarded, small-minded god do you pray to?
The real One.
ever read Psalms?
right, go read it yourself, note his reaction.
“He’s a million trillion percent right.”
HT, I am loving your contirbutions, but I have to wonder whether you are always serious, or if you it is a gambit to support even the most assinine positions in order to maintain a sense of unity on your side of the arguments.
The tsunami as punishment for ‘disengagement’ makes no sense at all. Why would The Holy One kill over 150,000 people, mostly non Jews, for what is being proposed by Jews? Why didn’t the Israeli ‘left’ all drown in their showers one morning? Wouldn’t that make more sense? Shouldn’t I have been washed out to sea for my support of disengagment?
The Holy One works in mysterious ways, indeed, but then how do we know exactly who is being punnished and for what?
Don’t you prefer the equally Jewish/Torah/Orthodox position, say from the Chofetz Chaim, that disaster is a universal call to tshuva, rather than just a way to vote in upcoming elections? We all have far more to repent for than just Israeli politics, and the Tsunami seems a bit more ‘global’.
You have nothing on my position: The Holy One clapped his hands in sadness because our world needs to deal with the millions of poor people forced to live in poorly built dwellings leaving them exposed to both natural and human made disasters.
How much respect do you give my rabbonim?
PS. Your song is stomach turning.
“If these statements were really so ridiculous, should ‘enlightened’ people just ignore it and go on with their lives?”
No, the “enlightened” and the Orthodox should protest these kinds of statements as loudly as possible.
“or maybe they actually entertain the thought that it might be true, that there might be a spiritual reason behind natural occurences, and that God controls the universe?”
You don’t have to deny that God controls the universe and that there could be spiritual reasons behind occurrences in order to deny that anyone, rabbis included, has such knowledge regarding natural disasters.
Was every victim of the tsunami a Jew-hater? I’ll bet a great many never even heard of Jews. And what happens when a disaster harms Jews (do I need to name any?)? Either we’ll get some lame answer as to why THIS disaster was different from the tsunami, or some new moral failing of the Jews will be invented to explain it away.
There is no easy answer for complex events such as the tsunami. You will not be able to come up with a formula that explains such things, or more generally why the material world seems so indifferent to justice and why the fate that befalls so many seems so random.
You’ll just have to settle for the words of the old wine merchant from France, who early in his (rather popular) commentary on the Torah said these wise words (in a different context): I DON’T KNOW. Tell me if your rabbi knows better, or has more authority, than this man.
“It’s a gemara.”
Which one? And have you studied the commentaries on it?
“My rebbe who makes thousands of girls religious said the same quote from gemara.”
He might want to pay more attention to quality than quantity.
“Those rabbanim are the only ones with enough um chutzpah to say the truth,”
Well, they have enough chutzpah, anyway.
If we want non-religious people to become religious, let’s at the minimum present them with something that makes sense.
It’s a gemara.
Nuff said.
Who said every victim was a Jew hater? back to collective punishment though, most of them were either idol worshippers or Muslims.
And I bet if it was your house on the line you wouldn’t be so supportive of disengagement. Back to feeling the pain of a fellow Jew over your damned theology.
And there are many statements and laws in Judaism that don’t make sense. Rabbi Kahane said that if G-d’s ways were intelligible to man, what would be the point of worshipping Him (paraphrased?)
The problem is, you people think you’re more moral than G-d.
A Jewish baby from Belgium died there too. But very very VERY few Israelis died out of the thousands that were there. Why is that?
“But very very VERY few Israelis died out of the thousands that were there. Why is that?”
I stated this once, and I’ll state it again as a warning. A few years back a suicide terrorist blew himself up in Mea Shearim. No one died, and injuries were minimal. Some claimed that the low casulty rate was due to Hashem looking out for his observant community.
A couple of weeks later, another terrorist blew himself in almost the exact same spot, motzei shabbos as people were leaving shul. Many deaths, lots of casulties.
You’re playing with fire, and not the theological kind, when you get too anthropomorphic about God. And the fire is this…all the naysayers will stick in your face and use it as proof that God is merely a crutch for the feeble minded. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.
Do you look at your ideas for anything “intelligible to man”?
If we can’t know, then we can’t know, and shouldn’t disgrace the death of thousands of people by claiming certainty, or making it a servant to our own political aims.
“A Jewish baby from Belgium died there too. But very very VERY few Israelis died out of the thousands that were there. Why is that?”
What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that God was sending a message to Jews through a Belgian baby, but spared his beloved Israelis? Or are you merely pointing out that Israelis don’t usually live in Thailand, India, Sri Lanka, and Indonesia?
I think your problem is that by assuming how ‘moral I think I am’, you are in fact usurping more than a little of God’s providence. Be careful, I hear she gets pretty upset about that sort of stuff.
“It’s a gemara.
Nuff said.”
Nuff said? I had no idea Judaism was a mystery religion. I’ve never heard of anyone refusing to reveal which Gemara (or other authority) they’re relying on. (When they actually knew which Gemara they were relying on, of course.)
If you deign to tell us which Gemara you refer to, I will make an effort to look it up, consult the main commentaries (at least Rashi, Tosfos and MaHarsha, if applicable) and report my findings.
“back to collective punishment though, most of them were either idol worshippers or Muslims.”
And you believe idol worshippers deserve death? And any Muslim, regardless of his views on Jews or Israel?
“And I bet if it was your house on the line you wouldn’t be so supportive of disengagement. ”
Um, I don’t support the disengagement.
“Back to feeling the pain of a fellow Jew over your damned theology.”
Which theology do you think I subscribe to? Are you unaware that I’m no Leftist (understatement)?
“The problem is, you people think you’re more moral than G-d.”
Not exactly, unless your’e confusing yourself with God. For the time being, stop worrying about what other people don’t know about Judaism, and worry about what you don’t know. There are many other authorities, living and dead, who disagree with your rabbi(s) (if in fact you are quoting them correctly). The least you could do is show them some respect even if you don’t agree with them. Better would be to state your sources and tell us why you think they back your positions.
Holy Terror wrote: “But very very VERY few Israelis died out of the thousands that were there. Why is that?”
hmm does this have anything to do with the 4000 israelis who didn’t show up to work at the WTC on september 11th
“hmm does this have anything to do with the 4000 israelis who didn’t show up to work at the WTC on september 11th”
Excellent, JB! Making fun of a silly conspiracy theory. Now we’re getting somewhere.
Uh, you are making fun, right?
Holy Terror: The Gemara says a lot of sh*t, though I bet it doesn’t say that G-d will bring a tsunami if Israel hatches a plan to withdraw from Gaza, and I bet it doesn’t the idea of leaders talking like that.
The question is whether the Rabbeim really believe this or whether they’re prostituting Judaism to score cheap political points. I think this is politics, and I think it’s nonsense. It’s also stupid and irresponsible, and you don’t have to be a leftist or a heretic to figure any of this out. I don’t give a damn what the Gentiles think about it. I only care about the fact that this is bad for the religion when spiritual leaders are willing to scrape the bottom of the barrel and manipulate their followers in this way.
“And there are many statements and laws in Judaism that don’t make sense. Rabbi Kahane said that if G-d’s ways were intelligible to man, what would be the point of worshipping Him (paraphrased?)
The problem is, you people think you’re more moral than G-d.”
WE think we’re more moral than G-d? Excuse me. We’re not the one misappropriating G-d for political purposes. That is exactly what is happening with these rabbis who are telling soldiers that it is a sin to assist in Disengagement and that G-d will strike them down and so on. Both Left and Right could afford some humility. The Left worships secularism. The Right has come to worship the rabbeim and in some cases, their militant ideology. Neither one is Judaism, and neither one evinces the notion that we should strive to be on G-d’s side rather than the other way around.
You say that You bet but who are you?
are you saying if Torah doesn’t agree with your conception of things it’s incorrecT?
Is the Torahthere for you to twist it for your own aims?
G-d’s rule extends to all realms, it’s just people that choose to ignore that and worship themselves instead of him.
“You say that You bet but who are you?”
So I propose that instead of betting or assuming, we insist that someone who quotes a Gemara tell us WHICH Gemara they mean (and a citation/ mar’eh makom would be nice). If the quoter doesn’t know, let them ask their source and get back to us on it. Things can be unclear in Judaism when the sources don’t directly address an issue, but we should not be guessing about the content of works which are readily available.
“You say that You bet but who are you?
are you saying if Torah doesn’t agree with your conception of things it’s incorrecT?
Is the Torahthere for you to twist it for your own aims?”
Who are YOU? The Torah does not say that if a Tsunami comes, it is because people support the Disengagement plan. The Torah does not say that people should blindly follow whatever some militant rabbi says. Rabbis are not G-d, despite what some Haredim seem to think.
G-d’s rule doubtless extends to all realms. But it does not follow from that, sister, that we may start extrapolating that He kills 200,000 people in nine countries because of Disengagement as if this were the obvious thing in the world. It really should be transparent to anyone who is not blindly following whoever said this nonsense (and it has nothing whatsoever to do with your actual stance on Disengagement) that this is politics and not religion, a very sordid attempt to rile people up by manipulating their faith.
I find it amusing that someone who is so omnipotent that she claims she knows G-d killed off close to 200,000 people because of Disengagement is accusing me of twisting the Torah to my own aims.
If this is the best argument you can come up with for not leaving Gaza, it is perfectly clear who is doing the twisting here.
The best argument for not leaving Gaza is that there is a Jewish law which states once a Jew owns a part of Eretz Yisrael it is completely illegal for him to give it to any gentile.
And, I think rabbanim who actually learn Torah know a lot better than you about the way G-d thinks.
if a tsunami comes, it’s cause G-d ain’t happy.
“The best argument for not leaving Gaza is that there is a Jewish law which states once a Jew owns a part of Eretz Yisrael it is completely illegal for him to give it to any gentile.
And, I think rabbanim who actually learn Torah know a lot better than you about the way G-d thinks.”
See, you know nothing about whether I learn Torah or not, but you’ve already concluded that since I disagree these particular Rabbeim, I must not learn Torah. That’s called substituting faith in the Rabbeim for faith in G-d. When a rebbe says something this inane, my response to question or ignore him as I would any other individual who talks nonsense. Your response is to, unfortunately, assume that there’s something to this because he’s a rebbe. And that’s exactly what he’s counting on, which is why it is so dangerous.
But yeah, you’d think a rabbi who spent his life learning Torah would know better than to say something stupid like the Tsunami is the result of G-d’s anger for Disengagement. And indeed, lots of rabbis do know better. Or perhaps know better as politics dictate. Remember when Shas was part of Rabin’s coalition? Do you know better than Rabbi Ovadia Yosef? You just seem intent on accepting whatever the most extreme rebbe says.
Maybe G-d is angry because the Rabbeim are saying stupid things and lots of people are listening to them. Whereupon G-d has decided to take this out on Sri Lankans, as per the Gemara in Mesechet Mishegas, where Rav said: “Fear the wrath of Hashem; if you disturb him he will take it out on the Sri Lankans.” Whereupon Rabbi Gamliel related: “We learn from a Bareita that every time a Jew fails to observe Shabbos, G-d will send the Malach Ha Mavetz to personally bitchslap two persons in Banda Aceh, one of which will be a small innocent and defenseless child.”
dude, ur pointless. I’m quoting something exact, and you’re making shit up.
And Rav Yosef is considered persona non grata by the main Lithuanian rabbanim, so whatever.
Would I go to a tailor to have brain surgery? No.
Would I go to a kindergarten teacher to defend you in a trial? No.
Would I go to some knucklehead that probably doesn’t even keep Shabbos to tell me the way G-d works?
Definitely not.
The rabbis immerse themselves in Torah the way most of you people immerse yourself in vodka and loud music on Friday night.
nuff said.
and it is an utter sin to help in disengagement because as i said there is a halacha stating that a jew is not allowed to give any portion of eretz yisrael to a goy
oh yeh, that’s right, you guys don’t follow any laws unless you agree with them
hah
“I’m quoting something exact, …”
Where is it? Until you tell us, your’e quoting nothing.
“the way most of you people immerse yourself in vodka and loud music on Friday night. ”
I’m Orthodox, and I get immersed in Scotch on many Friday nights (it’s an homage to Chassidism, which I usually disagree with) (well, OK, and I like to drink, too). And for loud music, there’s still Saturday night.
What are you trying to say?
” dude, ur pointless. I’m quoting something exact, and you’re making shit up. ” What did you quote? You gave a couple of general principles. Judaism is in the details and in the interpretation.
“And Rav Yosef is considered persona non grata by the main Lithuanian rabbanim, so whatever.”
C’mon. The point is that Rabbeim disagree, which is evidence that you cannot take everything they say at face value as if it came from Shamayim. And I don’t care whether one is Ashkenaz and one Sephard. I’m sure that there’s enough disagreement within the Lithuanian community to prove my point.
“Would I go to a tailor to have brain surgery? No. . . Would I go to some knucklehead that probably doesn’t even keep Shabbos to tell me the way G-d works? ”
That’s not the question. The question is whether you would go to a brain surgeon who says: “I’m going to operate on your brain with this knife and fork and I won’t need anesthetic. It’s part of the new back-to-basics movement in medicide. G-d will provide.” Will you trust him just because he’s a brain surgeon who is up to date on the latest medicine? Sure, as long as you suspend all common sense.
“The rabbis immerse themselves in Torah the way most of you people immerse yourself in vodka and loud music on Friday night.”
Now you’re just being a jerk. Maybe if the rabbis immersed themselves in the real world every once in a while they would be better rabbis. Same goes for the kollel guys who think it is a mitzvah not to work for a living.
“and it is an utter sin to help in disengagement because as i said there is a halacha stating that a jew is not allowed to give any portion of eretz yisrael to a goy”
Cite it, with relevant commentaries. Also, do me a favor and cite where it is written that Gaza is part of Eretz Yisroel. While you’re at, tell me why we shouldn’t go and conquer Jordan right now, since that too is Eretz Yisrael, and it is well within our power to take it. And before you’re done, cite me that part where it says it is OK to refer to Arabs as “sand ni**ers”.
You seem to forget that until the 1960s, most of the Haredi world thought Israel itself was a crime. The Six Day War changed their minds. Now why was that? Was it because of some great religious upheaval, or was it because being anti-Israel became politically unpalatable and rendered their religious opinion wrong?
HT keeps ignoring the requests… She keeps responding to everything else in everyone’s posts. I’m gonna ask agan:
If you’re going to keep referring to a gemara, can you please (for the sake of those of us who want to learn) give us a good citation to the gemara and to a commentary or two that reflects your understanding? While you’re at it, can you cite a source that says Gaza is part of the land hKBH promised us?
Only an idiot would say that R M Eliahu is “haredi”. If anything he is considered one of the “gedolei hador” for the Religious Zionist community.