Shaping The Discourse
My friend’s younger brother is here on a Young Judea trip, with Shalem specifically — the program for Orthodox high school grads. Recently they met with David Olesker, the founder and director of the Jerusalem Center for Communications and Advocacy Training (JCCAT), and received a “basic training” in “Israel advocacy,” or what I like to call “indoctrination” into “pro-Israel propaganda” and how to “ram it down others’ throats.”
Allow me to share the material from JCCAT’s fact sheet, “Advocating for Israel: The Basics.”
There are three basic elements to effective advocacy: information to advocate, techniques to convey the information, and a forum to advocate in.
There are many organizations already doing an excellent job in distributing information on Israel, and advocacy forums are outside the scope of this workshop, so this handout will focus on the techniques of advocacy.
1. Target your audience
The members of the local branch of the “Terrorism Appreciation Society” and the “International Revolutionary Group (Groucho Marxist)” are not likely to start buying trees from the JNF, no matter how good an advocate you are! Similarly, the membership of the “Hanging’s Too Good For Arab Terrorists Club” probably don’t need to be convinced of the justice of Israel’s case. Your target will usually be the uncommitted, and you should choose messages that appeal to them.
2. Use pictures
Language is important (as we will see), but Jews tend to gorge on our traditional diet of words while the rest of the Western world feasts on images. Pictures (particularly moving ones) are easier to relate to and more memorable than words. Use video, photographs, and diagrams to convey information.
3. Mind your language
No matter how good your pictures are you will always need words. Be careful that you choose them carefully. Avoid words that are inaccurate (“The Wall” isn’t, most of it’s a fence) or carry the wrong emotional impact (“settlement” has become a dirty word — try “suburb,” “community,” or “village”). Avoid words that tell only part of the story, and therefore the wrong story (instead of “Palestinian” use “Palestinian Arab”; instead of “Intifada” use “Terror War”).
4. Keep it simple
The Middle East is a complex issue (in fact a number of them). However, few people you will be speaking with will have patience to hear all the things they need to hear in order to understand it all. Strive to identify the areas your audience may be ignorant of (you will sometimes be stunned at how little people know about one of the biggest foreign news stories in the world). Convey to them concisely the essential points they need to know [namely: Jews have viewed Israel as their national home for thousands of years; This conflict isn’t about settlements, it’s about Israel’s existence; Arab rejectionism is the cause of the Palestinian Arab’s plight — the Arab nations voted against Palestinian Arab independence; Israel is demonized by the Arab world, and by many in the West; and Israel is a democracy that wants peace].
5. Keep it interesting
Even short historical lectures can become boring before they finish. It’s important to know what gets people’s attention.
5.1. Use analogies
People are reluctant to absorb new information. It’s much easier to understand that Israel is just like something you already know about, than to learn something new.
5.2. Tell stories
People relate to people much more than they do statistics. Tell stories about your own experiences, or those of relatives, friends, or other named individuals.
6. Control the agenda
If you always have to answer questions that are the equivalent of “have you stopped beating your Palestinians?” you will always lose. If we are discussing the murder of Israeli babies by Hamas terrorists, it’s hard to lose the argument. On the other hand, if you are having to defend Israel’s “illegal policy of murdering Palestinian resistance leaders” (target attacks on terrorist leaders designed to minimize civilian casualties) you are going to have a much more difficult time.
The single most important thing you can do in terms of Israel advocacy is to set the agenda for the discussion.
6.1. Agendas to set
Some of the issues you might want to raise include:
- Nothing justifies terrorism.
- Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.
- Israel is a pluralistic society.
- It isn’t the Israel-Palestine conflict; it’s the Arab-Israel conflict.
- The same Islamist ideology that caused 9/11 is hard at work trying to destroy Israel.
- It isn’t about settlements, or territory, but rather the legitimacy of Israel within any border.
- Palestinian Arabs are suffering, but it’s caused by their own, and other Arab leaders.
- The world is ignoring the irrefutable, systematic abuse of the human rights of (Syrians, Saudis, Sudanese, Bahais, Arab women, Palestinian Arab homosexuals…) to focus on Israel’s alleged human rights abuses.
- America’s most reliable ally in the Middle East is under attack.
- Antisemitism is rampant throughout the Arab and Muslim world; it is not only tolerated by governments, but promoted by them.
6.2. Ways to set agendas
Don’t be afraid to engage your audience’s emotions. It is emotional engagement more than anything else that makes one agenda “stick” more than its rivals. All that we have said so far are the means that you can use to make the message as compelling as possible, and thus enforce your agenda.
And there you have it. How to manipulate others with misleading and otherwise factually “massaged” (ie., false) information in defense of the Jewish state. And this is what the right-wing Zionist youth movement is spoonfeeding its kids. Lovely.
Please let Mr. Olesker know that being disengenuous about the nature of this conflict will not resolve matters nor strengthen the case for Israel’s existence, which stands on its own without needing to mislabel the Palestinian indepdendence movement an outgrowth of fanatical Islam, or anything other than a political and territorial conflict. He can be reached at [email protected].
That is a great handout…. It amazes me how verily anti-Israel you are really are… G-D forbid someone would try to tell our side of the story….It seems you have a harder time listening to this perspective then the Pro PA= terrorist world tour invadind our campuses. We need individuals who can present our side in a compelling and interesting matter. The tactics of the anti-Israel side are far worse and underhanded…. That is a great handout, I think you will only be satisfied when there insn’t an Israel
There is nothing on this list that is objectionable – it is all standard PR technique. And ALL of these techniques are already being used by Israel’s enemies and by lefties. In addition, the left is using many much more underhanded public relations techniques taken from the likes of Goebbels – such as the “big lie” technique of repeating things you know to be untrue – the Jenin massacre, etc.
Have fun in LaLa land, Mobius. Let us know when you return.
Why do I find it ironic that this post shows up right underneath a Birthright Israel ad….? Isn’t it sort of the same kind of thing?
Why are you so angry about this when theres something called ISM around?
Mob,
Gd forbid if someone might defend Israel.
I assume that this is another one of those posts that you put up to generate banter and not really represent your real opinion.
Shavuah tov everyone, this week will be better than last.
objections:
#1. “Terrorism Appreciation Society” and the “International Revolutionary Group (Groucho Marxist)” — this implies that people who are concerned for the plight of palestinians are supporters of terrorism or radical communists
#2. if you support israel’s right to existence then you should believe that “Hanging’s Too Good For Arab Terrorists”
#3. “Jews tend to gorge on our traditional diet of words while the rest of the Western world feasts on images” — ie., jews are smart; non-jews are dumb. they can’t understand language, so you need to show them purdy pictures to keep them engaged.
#4. “Avoid words that are inaccurate (“The Wall” isn’t, most of it’s a fence) or carry the wrong emotional impact (“settlement” has become a dirty word — try “suburb,” “community,” or “village”). Avoid words that tell only part of the story, and therefore the wrong story (instead of “Palestinian” use “Palestinian Arab”; instead of “Intifada” use “Terror War”).” — most of it is not a fence; most of what is fence today will be concrete tomorrow, as soon as the government works out an acceptable arrangement with the high court. redefining settlements as suburbs and villages is misleading because it disregards the political nature of the settlements and their strategic purpose.
#5. ” Convey to them concisely the essential points they need to know” to give them a one-sided, biased view of the situation.
#6. “Nothing justifies terrorism.” — unless it’s jews killing british colonialists; then it’s a-okay. “Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.” — which intentionally disenfranchises the voting arab public and discriminates against them in public policy. “Israel is a pluralistic society.” — except when it comes to giving money to non-orthodox jewish institutions, and dealing with women and homosexuals. “It isn’t the Israel-Palestine conflict; it’s the Arab-Israel conflict.” — except that no, really, it’s the israeli-palestinian conflict which is an entirely political and territorial conflict. “The same Islamist ideology that caused 9/11 is hard at work trying to destroy Israel.” — which is the most ludicrous, fear-employing argument one could possibly employ, and i would argue that poor foreign policy decisions are more responsible for 9/11 than islamic fundamentalism. “It isn’t about settlements, or territory, but rather the legitimacy of Israel within any border.” — except that the palestinian authority officially recognized israel’s legitimacy and right to exist as a jewish state over 10 years ago. “Palestinian Arabs are suffering, but it’s caused by their own, and other Arab leaders.” — perhaps in part, but certainly not in totality and anyone familiar with israel’s housing demolitions policy, for example, could attest to that fact. “The world is ignoring the irrefutable, systematic abuse of the human rights of (Syrians, Saudis, Sudanese, Bahais, Arab women, Palestinian Arab homosexuals…) to focus on Israel’s alleged human rights abuses.” — it’s absolutely preposterous to invoke israel’s superior treatment of homosexuals. sure, they’re not being killed in the streets, but you can bet your ass that there are elements in power here who’d be more than happy than to see that the case. “America’s most reliable ally in the Middle East is under attack.” — and it is in part because israel is allied with the world’s greatest imperial and oppressive force that it catches so much flack. “Antisemitism is rampant throughout the Arab and Muslim world; it is not only tolerated by governments, but promoted by them.” — but what does that have to do with israel disposessing people of land in east jerusalem, knocking their houses down, etc. etc. et.c
#7. “Don’t be afraid to engage your audience’s emotions.” — get people riled up emotionally on issues that are of import to them and then it won’t matter what the truth is. this is how fascists have traditionally manipulated their constituencies. fuck logic, just get emotional. then hand out the torches.
does this mean i hate israel? hardly. it just means that i believe it is unnecessary to stoop to such levels in order to defend israel’s right to existence. on the other hand, it means that i don’t necessarily find israel’s actions in all cases to be defensible. to me, that doesn’t delegitimize israel. it just means we have to work harder to make sure it acts rightly and justly.
“There is nothing on this list that is objectionable – it is all standard PR technique.”
That’s exactly what’s objectionable, ben-david. For advocates of Israel to use language which they know is dishonest and emotionalistic makes it seem as if the facts supporting Israel’s right to exist are few and need to be buttressed by distortions to make an effective argument, when this is not the case. Implying that one must defend the settlements in order to defend Israel is another outrage, especially given that there has often been majority support in Israel for dismantling the settlements. To tie the two together is to suggest that Israel’s legal and moral right to exist is similar to that of the settlements, which is ridiculous and obviously not even effective in propaganda.
We are up against a machine that aggresivelly and outright lies in their presentation. I will never forget a pro-palestinian rally I attended in my school. They had a lovely banner hanging up of a Magen David, an equals sign, and swatstika. They weren’t singling out zionists, they were equating the symbol of the Jews to the symbol of the Nazis. That basically summed up what they stood for. G-D forbid Jews try to defend themselves, obviously when presenting your case you want to use all the avenues you can. Remember where all not as smart as you in deciphering all the facts, and we lack rationality to do what is right for Israel….
DiGiTal, because some Palestinians lie than advocates for Israel should lie as well? That doesn’t make any sense. If we are convinced that Israel’s right to exists can stand on the facts, than we should be presenting facts (warts and all) not radical the distortions that Mobius reported. I don’t think it helps your case to create a propaganda machine full of lies. Most people are smart enough to see through both Israeli and Palestinian lies.
DiGiTaL wrote: “We are up against a machine that aggresivelly and outright lies in their presentation. I will never forget a pro-palestinian rally I attended in my school. They had a lovely banner hanging up of a Magen David, an equals sign, and swatstika. They weren’t singling out zionists, they were equating the symbol of the Jews to the symbol of the Nazis.”
well what’s the symbol of the zionist movement?
that’s the thing – they hijacked the star of david
Mobious- you’re #2 on your above post is logically incorrect. You assume that if an israel supporter has a certain characteristic, then only those who have that characteristic support israel. you took what we in the formal logic world call a converse and called it a contrapositive… sorry, man, that doesn’t fly.
second, i don’t know how many of you fully appreciate the struggle for information going on at college campuses. you think that sitting around and having long, nuanced conversations will win the day? i can’t tell you how much i wish that were true and yet how true it isn’t. i go to a school where the fight is daily and it’s mostly in sound bites. Olesker (who recently came here), while encouraging us to speak in generalities, in “PR-speak”, is just recognizing the nature of the beast. i’m sorry that you guys don’t, but you don’t have to be where those of us at difficult school are. you’ll leave the fight on the ground to us.
JOhn Brown: your missing the point they equate Zionism/Judaism as one of the same, they see no difference only you do, they hate us all one and the same. And i never said Israel should lie. But it is critical to realize the tactics and motives of the otherside….and the momentum they are gaining
Yes I agree with Digital Ben David and Bearsforisrael. Mike what is ISM?
Everything in this PR advice is true.
Ben,
PR does not make it false. Did you ever go for a job interview and set up your resume just right? Did you try to make a good first impression?-Does that mean that you were dishonest??
We have every right to argue effectively-nothing here is dishonest. The fact is that the other side do much much more agressive PR and are very very dishonest. They stage fake israeli shootings against them “poor palistinians”, they lie about our Holy Temple and say that we never had a tie to the land (yes arafat even told that to the US president-it was in the papers afew years ago) and much more… this is public knowledge no need to expand.
So I am all for this attempt at PR. If I were in charge it would be much stonger and with different arguments. I would also include
1. Israel is a Jewish state and we were forced off the land 2000 years ago.
2. Jews have in small number remained on the land for almost that amount of time.
3. “Palistinian” was how they refered to Jews before 1948- read the papers from that time.
4. “palistinian” now is a made-up PR name for the arabs in order to imply its not Jewish land.
In short I support what is being done but only wish it was even stronger.
Of course, the Magein David wasn’t really a Jewish symbol until relatively recently… back in the day Jewish symbols were actually Jewish symbols, like the menora. Check out Judean coins and whatnot from the Second Commonwealth.
Spring semester last year, in my Intro to Women’s Studies class, we had a guest speaker from JATO come speak about “Women, War, & Conflict.†Her speech, however, had nothing to do with women, war, or conflict, but focused only on hate, pain, and propaganda. By the time she showed us a timeline that neglected to mention 1967 (crucial, one would think, if your focus is on the “Israeli Occupation of the Palestineâ€), I interrupted her to ask if her purpose was to educate us about the situation in the Middle East so that can move toward a positive goal, or if she was just going to tell us how horrible the Israeli soldiers are. Her response? “I’m just here to talk about the situation.†Puh-leez! Your support for these organizations (yes, placing a link to their site is more than just support) is sickening. Tell me what JATO has accomplished, because all I can find on their site is attendance at bunches of rallies.
I would like to think that once Israel leaves Gaza the Palestinian-Arabs (and no, I didn’t start saying that when I read your post) will start building up their economy and won’t want to lose their workforce to suicide bombers or risk trade, blah blah blah. But the biggest problem is that people lose sight of what’s important. Solve all the world’s problems by pointing them out or solve all the world’s problems by being a good person and caring for those who are close to you and then those further away? …I’m not making sense at this point, but I have a headache and I just…urgh!
rant rant rant
“have you stopped beating your Palestinians?”
I admit, that made me laugh.
Good handout.
Hey Moby, when are you going to pass around the staunch lefty pro-Palestinian “call Israel an apartheid country” handout? I mean, what are you complaining about? Most of the stuff John Brown, Asaf, you and Sam provide is simply a regurgitation of the pro-Palestinian advocacy line. I’ve seen it all over the place and expect to see it whenever I am in a Left wing or pro-Arab environment, like a public talk or website.
As long as pro-Israel advocates are responding with facts and truth, there is absolutely nothing wrong with advising them how to do it. If anything, the propaganda machine they face is so well entrenched and sophisticated that without they’ve been able, in their rhetoric, to turn what is essentially a moral country facing an interminable war into an evil entity. It’s a good thing somebody is organizing to neutralize this incessant bullshit.
stop calling yourself “the middle” — you’re the center right.
Interesting Dan, because based on TM’s posts, comments, etc. I consider him to be quite balanced/middle, whatever regarding the Israel. A proud Jew? Yes. A Jew who gives Jew’s the benefit of the doubt (mostly because it’s warranted)? Yes. And I guess it takes one to know one because I considern myself to be center-ish on most of these issues as well. I notice it when I’m in a Modern Ortho shul and they’re talking annexation of West Bank/Gaza and when I’m in a reconstructionist shul and they’re talkng much of what you believe. So perhaps TM appears “center Right” due to the whacky left wing PR shtick Oofnik/Brown and at times yourself post.
“…reagarding THE Israel”. Heh, that sounds funny. I wish there was an edit button on this blog.
Blah, blah, blah. Holy crap moby.
#1. “Terrorism Appreciation Society” and the “International Revolutionary Group (Groucho Marxist)” — this implies that people who are concerned for the plight of palestinians are supporters of terrorism or radical communists
I’ll go on record and say that I am concerned for the plight of the Palestinians. The ones in the West Bank and Gaza are our neighbours and their welfare ought to be the concern of anyone interested in a viable Israel. Anyone with a shred of concern for the Palestinians ought to recognize that their leadership has failed them and the course of action they have followed thusfar has gotten them zilch. Having said that, I have been to more than my fair share of pro-Palestinian rallies and the fact is that supporters of terrorism and radical communists do indeed pay lip service to and feign support for the Palestinians.
#2. if you support israel’s right to existence then you should believe that “Hanging’s Too Good For Arab Terrorists”
Huh? I read and re-read JCCAT’s fact sheet and found nothing about that. Besides, everyone knows that there is no capital punishment in Israel, except for nazi war criminals – which would explain all those Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails with blood on their hands waiting to get out in some future prisoner release.
#3. “Jews tend to gorge on our traditional diet of words while the rest of the Western world feasts on images” — ie., jews are smart; non-jews are dumb. they can’t understand language, so you need to show them purdy pictures to keep them engaged.
Uh… are you projecting or something? Look at how news has degraded in the last 10-20 years, look at the popularity of “newspapers” like USA Today. This is just reflective of a general trend. People don’t read or listen anymore. Photos and sound bites do in fact have a stronger impact on a mass audience. This has nothing to do with Jews or non-Jews. Besides, some of the most idiotic people I know are, sadly, fellow Jews. Ahem.
most of what is fence today will be concrete tomorrow, as soon as the government works out an acceptable arrangement with the high court. redefining settlements as suburbs and villages is misleading because it disregards the political nature of the settlements and their strategic purpose.
The fences are actually pretty good at keeping undesirables (terrorists) out. The electronic surveillance equipment usedin tandem with the fences is pretty great. Similar fences prevent incursions from Gaza and South Lebanon. The Wall or whatever you want to call it, where its a big ol concrete column, is used to prevent sniping at nearby homes on the Israeli side. Also, some “settlements” are indeed suburbs whose residents don’t give a rat’s ass about politics and live there cuz its cheaper. But whatever – PR doesn’t have to be nuanced and you certainly aren’t.
#5. ” Convey to them concisely the essential points they need to know” to give them a one-sided, biased view of the situation.
I think the point here is an emphasis on brevity and punchiness, not deception. When engaged in a heated discussion, trying to give a detailed academic dissertation is a bit difficult and certainly ineffective, especially when the guy in front of you is screaming “Zionism is Fascism! Sharon Assasin! Down with Zionist Apartheid!” at the top of his lungs, over and over again. While you’re trying to outline the finer points of the Sykes Picot agreement, he’s winning over the crowd. There’s nothing wrong urging the use of brief, easily digestible sound bites – heck the other side has mastered that!
#6 is a doozy. So much crap. Oy. OK. Here goes:
“Nothing justifies terrorism.” — unless it’s jews killing british colonialists; then it’s a-okay.
For the most part, British soldiers were targeted. This doesn’t compare in scope and quality to Palestinian Terrorism.
“Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.” — which intentionally disenfranchises the voting arab public and discriminates against them in public policy.
I think Arab leadership has done more than anyone to disenfranchise its “voting” public. I dunno. Maybe Iraq is a democracy now, but it sure aint stable. In any case, the point is not to disenfranchise anyone – certainly not those fine citizens who have voted in various little bo peep elections across the Arab world. Quite the contrary, I think the point is to encourage further democracy.
“Israel is a pluralistic society.” — except when it comes to giving money to non-orthodox jewish institutions, and dealing with women and homosexuals.
Well, if more reform and conservative Jews moved to Israel and became politically active, then they too could get sweet deals from the government. In the mean time loads of non-orthodox groups get cash from the govt. You make it sound like only Orthodox groups get anything from the government. Who funds all the decidedly non-orthodox organizations in Israel like Kibbuttzes, theatres, orchestras etc? Also the last time I checked, women and homosexuals were treated much better in Israel than in most of the world. Is there room from improvement? Sure. But so what? Where is the situation perfect exactly?
… except that no, really, it’s the israeli-palestinian conflict which is an entirely political and territorial conflict.
Uh really? Saddam was paying off the families of suicide bombers, Saudi Arabia keeps printing “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” Iran perpetuates the blood libel and blames Israel for everything and funds Hezbollah, Syria supports Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad and Hamas, etc. Yeah. It’s just between us and the Palestinians and it’s all just about politics and territory. Right. Yup. You got me there Moby.
i would argue that poor foreign policy decisions are more responsible for 9/11 than islamic fundamentalism.
Yup. Poor foreign policy decisions like uh… supporting the State of Israel and uh… not mollycoddeling the terrorists like France. I mean what? No one’s ever flown a plane into the Eiffel Tower, right?
except that the palestinian authority officially recognized israel’s legitimacy and right to exist as a jewish state over 10 years ago.
Yeah. And I have this great swampland in Florida to sell ya. Don’t you ever read anything? Or just open your eyes and look at Palestinian depictions of Palestine. Its all of Israel they long for, all the rest of British Mandate Palestine that they really long for in their heart of hearts. Sure they’ll take Gaza, and then as much of the West Bank as they can get… then it’s just a waiting game, eh? Like Salladin – In the meantime, they’ll say whatever bullshit line they can to appease naive dumb asses.
it’s absolutely preposterous to invoke israel’s superior treatment of homosexuals. sure, they’re not being killed in the streets, but you can bet your ass that there are elements in power here who’d be more than happy than to see that the case.
Now you’re starting to sound incoherent. Homophobia is a condition that crosses all divisions – political, ideological, religious etc. And yet last summer’s Pride Parade and festival in Tel Aviv resulted in no casualties. You also conveniently ignored and failed to explain why so much attention is paid to the Palestinian issue while far more pressing and disasterous violations of human rights laws are going on elsewhere in the world. Why is that? H,mmm… I wonder.
#7. “Don’t be afraid to engage your audience’s emotions.” — get people riled up emotionally on issues that are of import to them and then it won’t matter what the truth is. this is how fascists have traditionally manipulated their constituencies. fuck logic, just get emotional. then hand out the torches.
Man. You really have a problem. Engage your audience’s emotions = Fascism? Shit, then all those Palestinian activists with their sad photos of Rachel Corey and dead Palestinians must be what? Nazi Stormtroopers? Hitler Youth? Dude… you’re really losing it here.
So what is it exactly that you love about Israel? Shwarma? What??? Cuz you’re doing a great job unfairly dissing the shit out of it. I don’t mind a critical stance towards Israel but its like you have no ability to moderate yourself or actually think in a balanced manner. Anyhow, who cares. All I want is for people to click on that banner at the top of the page and come to Israel this summer with birthright israel. Yay!
No Moby, I am actually fairly well in the Center, with some views that put me to the right of it and some to the left. On this site, I am definitely to the right of most of your posters and you because, as I point out above, you guys post stuff that simply reflects Palestinian propaganda. I mean, I have to debate with Sam whether it’s ethical or not for Zionists to purchase land at inflated prices and then to seek a democratic state with a majority of Jews. Give me a break.
By the way, if you come to Jewlicious, there are two right wing posters berating me for my views about the conflict. The Middle it is…
I think my biggest problem with any of this is, basically, if you have to point a finger somewhere else in order to defend yourself, chances are 1. You don’t have a good case 2. You do have a good case, but you don’t know how to make it
Quite simply, advocacy for Israel shoudln’t be based on “putting down the other guy.” There’s no need to bring up the treatments of homosexuals in “scary Arab countries…” How about just talking about the progress being made today in Israel, itself? How -about- mentioning the gay pride parade in Tel Aviv, or the Queer Jewish center in Jerusalem, or WORLD FRICKIN’ PRIDE 2005?! These are achievements, and although it ain’t perfect, it’s a start.
I think the same on the other side. No need for Mobius to defend his posting by saying, “What – and Israel doesn’t do this shit?” Because, quite frankly, that’s totally ignoring the argument that everyone else is making, and again skirting the issue in order to point fingers.
You don’t need to counter pro-Israel propoganda with anti-Israel propoganda, but you need to acknowledge what propoganda is and why it’s harmful.
How about we coin a new term now (based losely on an Israeli one already in existence): When you have facts, who needs propoganda?
I -do- think this pamphlet is bovine feces. Teaching the leaders of young Jewish communities to simplify the conflict in terms of us vs. them, truth vs. terrorism… this may be the way to win clueless classmates, but is it really the honest way to go?
Isn’t there a better argument for Israel based solely on the fundementals -of Israel?!- If not, then I think we’re really in trouble.
Well, in an ideal world ariela you’d be right. But Israel has been walloped the last few years because of its piss poor basic pr skills. What’s wrong exactly with acquiring a little media savvy? No one is telling these kids, or anyone else for that matter, to lie. All that’s being taught is to present the truth in an easily digestible manner.
Kids taught these things, and they have to be taught, will not then pick up torches, march in goosestep to the nearest Palestinian village and burn the residents out, as has been implied. The pamphlet isn’t shit just because it focusses on method more than content!
mobius this stuff you posted is what makes me shy away from israel advocacy on my campus at home. its not quite that bad but most of the time i get the feeling that it is. I feel Israel’s right to existence can be justified while being honest about ‘the situation’, and that in fact that’s the only way it can be justified. What happens when someone who DOES know something comes along to a booth distributing this kind of information? How does this give a pro-Israel argument any strength? How welcoming are such tactics to Jews who want to bring their sense of ethics and honesty to Israel advocacy? I am the only student of 45,000 from my school who cared enough to drop out and come to Israel this year, out of 8,000 Jews; yet I have never helped out the Gators for Israel because of exactly such things. Spreading these kinds of half-truths about, delegitamizing the Palestnian national ID by not calling them Palestinians, coming up with euphemisms for settlements – these are regressive steps that will solve nothing. Say someone does become interested enough to learn more about Israel – how long will it take until they run into contradictory information? and then what will their perceptions be?
cara: so how does allowing yourself to be shouted down by thugs screaming “Zionism is Fascism! Zionism is Racism!” help advance the discourse? I will gladly have a balanced, calm, erudite conversation with anyone on the middle east and the Palestinian-Israeli situation. Sadly, that doesn’t happen so often.
The only real criticism I have of the flier is that it should emphasize a solid grounding in the facts and history of the conflict. Simply parroting speaking points that have been fed to you is not such a good idea. There should be substance behind the sound bites. But I still stand behind the notion that we need a multi-faceted approach that includes modern PR methods. There is nothing dishonest about that.
“but its like you have no ability to moderate yourself or actually think in a balanced manner.”
Actually he does, but they come in a very bi-polar manner. Four articles in a row of support and loving kindness on Monday, and then on Tuesday, 2-3 that drift into, at times, things I read on those “other” sites. However I must say, the pattern ends when it comes to Dan’s actual commentary/editorials on this topic; it is clear that his sympathies lie with Asaf/Brown. All of this could mean:
a) He’s trying to drive up traffic (it works. Good pr Dan)
b) He’s in the adolescent phase of his ideas/thoughts on Israel (not a bad thing, and in time they’ll crystallize into something more mature, stable.) Not to say that they’ll be Pro-Israel/Jewish – hell, maybe he’ll become the Finkelstein of web design -, but less erratic and polarized.
ariela, ck, cara,
How would you advise people to defend Israel’s position?
Joe,
Dan leads seminars in PR related activities. Hire him. The pamphlet for his workshop might look something like this:
9:00am – 10:00 AM
For the past 50 years Israel’s actions undermine its right to be called a state (Mobius)
10:00-11:00 AM
An interactive slideshow detailing how much land Israel has stolen from Arabs since the 30’s. (John Brown). Side note – John will spend the first 15 min apologizing for using PowerPoint and why Microsoft is evil and should be destroyed.
1100AM – 11:30 AM
Snack time. Due to the divestment campaign against Israel, the participants are served Oreo cookies.
11:30 AM – 12:30 PM
Roundtable: Illegal torture and apartheid-like policies. (Asaf)
12:30 PM – 1:30 PM
Invisible Lunch: All participants will mime eating a lunch in recognition of the space/emptiness that once stood before the Zionists built their Apartheid Wall.
Event honors Norman Finkelstein for his rich contributions to delegitimizing the state of Israel. A map of Palestine will be presented to him.
Mob,
you really are interesting. Posting crap about Israel=apartheid to give your self that contemporary academic aura to impress some leftists girls yet also craving to label (or unlabel) childish nicknames you yourself have chosen, is hysterical!!!
So what if T_M is ‘centre-right’?! All of a sudden he’s lost some credibility because of that label? Give us a break.
shtreimel, that was funny 🙂
Thanks Sara. But there’s truth in jest.
Joe: I would first and foremost advise people interested in defending Israel’s position to read whatever they can on the conflict and not just to limit themselves to pro-Israel sources. Then I would advise them to actually visit Israel and spend as much time as possible visiting the width and breadth of the country while talking to the people. Try and come to your own conclusions and if you decide that Israel’s position merits defense then go ahead and do it. The methods used ought to fit your intended audience. Use the methods described in the pamphlet in question if neccessary but also be prepared to discuss issues in a substantive manner. Never say or do anything you are not comfortable with, never lie and be respectful of others at all times. That would be a good start I think.
I hope you weren’t expecting a detailed and comprehensive manual ….
1) read whatever they can on the conflict and not just to limit themselves to pro-Israel sources.
2) visit Israel and spend as much time as possible visiting the width and breadth of the country while talking to the people.
3) Try and come to your own conclusions
Summarized your post CK (hope you don’t mind). But I agree 100% with your approach. I’ve had this discussion with rabbi from Vancouver who balances each “pro” with an “anti” book to inform him of the complexity of the situation, much of which is ignored by both UJA and ISM.
Books can only go so far thought, a visit is crucial.
Great post CK.
Thanks for summarizing shtreimel. However, we need to simplify the message even further with like, pictograms because goyim are so stupid and we are so smart and we own all the newspapers, and TV stations and Hollywood. Check this out.
I like. I like. But you have to throw in some cute Jewish girls caked in muck from the Dead Sea. It’ll mute the ISM turds fer sure.
CK- That was excellent, and so much easier to understand than all those confusing words and paragraphs!
CK, would you please post tha image on, you know, Jewlicious? Thanks.
As a Jewish person who left Israel over 20 years ago (thanks to Arik Sharon on his Lebanese escapade), I like to read this website as an insight for what (dare I say it?) – ‘worldly Jewish opinions’ might make of the gathering mess at my birthplace. I am often touched by the passion, creativity and courage that this cyber-shtetle presents. For me, regardless of the opinions generated, it is encouraging and refreshing that we are engaging in a live debate with regards to the problems and difficulties Israelis and Jews face under the New World Order (and I won’t dwelve into that one, though I appreciate Mobius’s little hint as to the “imperial and oppressiveâ€â€¦). To quote another brother: “The real act of discovery is not in finding new lands, but in seeing with new eyes.†(Marcel Proust)
Which, if I am not mistaken, is exactly the point brought to attention by this post. Is it so smart indeed to present our point of view by hiding our roll in the conflict behind walls (sorry, fences)? Between presenting coherent and factual arguments and marketing laundry detergents runs a very fine line and it ain’t even green… There is no fault in using PR techniques to make a point. There is however a great wrong in taking young and impressionable minds and loading them with one-sided picture of a very complicated issue where none of the participants can really pass the clear-conscious benchmark. Diluting the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (excuse me, the Israeli-Arab, or is it the American-Arab, er… Christian-Muslim-Jewish etc etc.) unto a “WE†Vs. “THEM†snapshot, where we are the book loving (people of the word) good guys – without a blemish – and they are all murderous terrorists is not just daft, it is criminal. It is exactly that kind of short-sightedness that keeps us in such a terrible hotspot today. They have terrorists, and we have our own acts of shame to reckon with.
Ignore the fact that millions of people are living in abject poverty on the doorsteps of our lush and well-funded ‘suburbs’ and then blame Arab govts. for a situation where pregnant women cannot get to hospital and hundreds of (old, very old) olive trees get uprooted, not to mention dropping 1 ton bombs on civilians while targeting militants or collective punishments like house demolitions. That is not good PR for a just cause, that is laundry detergent ad for cleaning shitty stains from the nappies of your consciousness – grow up, will ya?
I tend to agree with Yusul, Ariela and Cara: People are people. Most of them will not indeed have the patience, probably neither the capacity to understand the convoluted and torturous history of the conflict, nor will they grasp fully the Jewish plight, the British Empire’s failure at International politics (or that of the US, for that matter). But that does not make them dumb. The Palestinians are clearly the underdogs in this conflict. To pore oil on the flames by dragging – literally – skeletons from the Pogrom cupboards will not convince anyone that we have a case for keeping another nation confined to Bantustans (at best – that was the breadth of Barak’s solution). Excuse me, but who are we to decide if they have a right to determine whether they are a nation or not? If over two million people have gathered and said they want a place and a nationhood, and like it or not – for whatever historical reasons – we happen to sit on those lands they also live in, well then, burying our hands in the sand dunes – however holy one might deem these to be – will not make them go away. We will have to give them some, or learn to live with them together. And however righteous one might feel for his/her reasons, a solution cannot be reached by force. The fact that there are too many nutters on both sides to realise this is why the conflict is still alive. And the fact that we are teaching youngsters to be ambassadors for divisive propaganda is a disservice for all concerned. That is not a ‘democracy that wants peace’; that is a state induced numbness that keep us victimised and fearful and perpetuate yet another generation who will not see the Palestinians as people with a legitimate need for what Jews have been asking for 2,000 years, only to completely cock it up in the first opportunity given – a peaceful neighbourhood where all who live there are deserving a chance for bread on the table and school for their kids.
Michael: That was touching and eloquent. I wish it were a bit more balanced though, then maybe I would be a little more sympathetic. You make it sound like all the Palestinians ever wanted was to live in peace with the Jews. That’s just not the case.
Nobody gets nationhood handed to them – they earn it.
Wow Micahel for someone who was born and raised in Israel, you have quite a command of the English language
‘cyber-shtetle’…
It’s got a nice ring to it.
Most of the posts here are withut substance.For example I don’t know what we learn from Michael’s long story. The only thing I learnt is that he is an anti-Israel arab apologist.
He says we are “diluting” the conflict with a “WE†Vs. “THEM†snapshot. Its funny that he nor the others have explained why it is not “WE†Vs. “THEMâ€!!
Actually Michael and you others it is “WE†Vs. “THEM.â€
They arabs say it and its time you understand that.
Argue facts not emotions. If you believe its not “WE†Vs. “THEM†explain why not!
Hmmm, Joe, I’ll try. But I doubt if I can say anything that will change your mind…
Because it is pretty clear that you divide the world to those who are on your side and everyone else. I would tend to argue the fact I disagree with the current Israeli Govt. policies does not make me automatically anti-Israeli. There is some middle ground to cover the distance between opposing opinions. For example, T_M and Shtreimel are staging themselves center-ish. One could surmise about the accuracy of their definitions, but it is given that there is plenty of space to jostle around. But in your world (it seems – forgive me if I am wrong), there are only two dimensions. Aren’t you feeling little squashed, mate?
So be it.
And to the point in question: it is my observation that the WE and the THEM are formed by ingesting opinions and experiences through one’s own culture. Children adopt and assimilate their identity through the environment that feeds them. They were not born to be divided but brought up so by the fears and projections of their ‘tribal traditions’, so to speak.
And if we are all made ‘Betzalmo u-bedmuto’, we are all made of the same source. We have different belief systems, and some of them clash (badly), but I don’t think that means the truisms of the world are more substantial than my opinions and ideas about life, the weather, or anything else for that matter. If you don’t believe me, try something: go out on a beautiful night when you can see plenty of stars; lie on your back, look up at the heavens and tell them what you think. But like REALLY. Tell them everything you have to say about the peaceful Jews, the war-mongering Arabs and their miserable apologists. Pour your heart into it. And see what different does it make.
Nada.
Hevel havalim hakol havel.
I cannot change anyone but my own attitude and perception. “Hakol Tzafui, veharashut netuna†– Thy Will Be Done – Al a-Bab Alla, whatever. I can live in a world that is scary and where everyone is trying to kill me, or I can live in a world where I am trying to see where can I be a better human being, REGARDLESS of the circumstances. If you wish to live in a world where everyone outside your frame of reference is against you (and you are in the company of presidents, brother, how noble), you will probably find that it is so. For you can only read the world through the eyes which you look with.
But if you are prepared to take a risk and stick your neck out in the name of making a difference to the way we are evolving – all of us, human beings – and see the interconnectedness which permeates all (“I am that I amâ€), you might just discover the hidden power within you to change your life, and others. And to bring healing where there is war.
But what do I know? I’m just a dude who sold out on the Zionist dream with long stories, right? Maybe it is better if I quote someone, a real person. One of the many great teachers that Judaism have sprung.
“In the Light of the mighty idea of the unity of existence, there is eliminated the problem of self-love, which some have made into the source of all sin, and others into the source of all morality. There is only love for all things, which is in truth an enlightened, a nobler kind of self-love. The distorted love that loves only the puny spark, seen in our myopic vision and hates the authentic love – this is a kind of blindness that is foolish as it is wickedâ€. (Avraham Yitzchak Kook, ‘Sacred Lights’)
And maybe just another giant, without a kipa: “Peace will not come out of a clash of arms but out of justice lived and done by unarmed nations in the face of odds†(Mahatma Ghandi)
Lechayyim 🙂
ariela:
“I think my biggest problem with any of this is, basically, if you have to point a finger somewhere else in order to defend yourself, chances are 1. You don’t have a good case 2. You do have a good case, but you don’t know how to make it”
Please make your case for the Warsaw ghetto Jews without “pointing the finger” at the ‘other guy’.
I’m afraid I have to agree with the anti-Mobites on this one. I much prefer the strategy detailed in his post to the one of murdering your own brethren and blaming it on the “Zionists” for the sake of PR. It’s actually quite innocuous if you consider the success of the underhanded tactics used by “anti-Zionists” from Palestine all the way to England, and every “shitty little country” in between.
“…all the way to England, and every “shitty little country” in between”
Ah England, where being a Jew is like using the wrong fork at dinner.
I would identify T-M squarely in the center. Electorally speaking, Likud is now the center.
“does this mean i hate israel? hardly. it just means that i believe it is unnecessary to stoop to such levels in order to defend israel’s right to existence. on the other hand, it means that i don’t necessarily find israel’s actions in all cases to be defensible. to me, that doesn’t delegitimize israel. it just means we have to work harder to make sure it acts rightly and justly.”
so far i haven’t actually read why you believe there should be a jewish state.
xisnotx, don’t make me laugh. Oops, there, you did it!
Michael Bergman, in your world, if I understand correctly, people who want and love peace and pursue the ideal of peace, end up with peace?
Your first post suggests, as ck states, that you are far from balanced in your views, and since the Palestinians are underdogs, we must focus on Israel’s behavior. Teaching young men and women to represent history truthfully and accurately but in a manner that counters the sophisticated spin we get from the pro-Palestinians and Palestinians is wrong because it’s spin for the stronger party and won’t fool anyone.
Forgive me but the Palestinians have proven you completely wrong on this point. They go out and blow up a restaurant full of innocent Jewish families having dinner, put up an art exhibit boasting about it, and when challenged, tell the world that this is the Israelis’ fault and it happened because of a brutal and oppressive occupation. They do this despite the fact that a couple of years earlier, their government was in control of most of their territory and the vast majority of their people. They do this despite being offered a Palestinian state for the first time in 53 years just a year or so earlier. And they do it…successfully. The world buys it. People come out and say, I’m opposed to terrorism, but I understand why the Palestinians do it.
But, in your view, when young Jews are taught how to handle a discussion about this in a public forum, that is futile and unnecessary.
Then you tell us that if we just learn to smell the beautiful night air, to feel the gentle evening breeze caress our shining faces, rejoice at the brightness of the stars and the regal presence of the moon, then we will see the beauty of the world and the beauty of people in general. We will then, hopefully, take on this beauty into our souls and approach life, and certainly this, uh, Arab-Israeli conflict in the manner you do, with peace and love in our hearts.
Gosh, how I want to believe you. I mean, I come from your corner of the ideological rainbow. I hated the Lebanon War and opposed it with all my heart. I have all these old Israeli songs about peace and love sitting on LPs and even some CDs in my music collection.
And then, I look around at the bombings, the snipings, the incessant antisemitism, the international posturing intended to undermine Israel’s very existence, the subtle but unmistakeable attacks on Jewish organizations and people in Western Europe and the U.S., the ongoing (Abbas-like) attempt to deny the Holocaust, the use of international institutions such as the U.N. to vilify Israel and make it an international pariah, etc., etc., etc. and I can only look at you and wonder what it’s like to be so removed from reality that you can’t see any of this. Or maybe you see this and blame it on Israel? Israel is far from perfect and has made some horrific mistakes, but the attacks were there long before it existed.
There’s nothing wrong with seeing the beauty in the world. But recognize that it comes with ugliness. All of humanity deserves to be at peace, and yet there are many who prefer war and violence and unless you’re prepared to defend yourself and your family, they will be victims. Peace comes, in part, because of self-interest and not only because of morality or love for fellow man.
And one more thing. Perhaps, if you really want to show this love to all mankind so we can find peace, you can stop repeating Palestinians propaganda about bantustans. You write, “divisive propaganda is a disservice for all concerned. That is not a ‘democracy that wants peace’; that is a state induced numbness that keep us victimised and fearful and perpetuate yet another generation who will not see the Palestinians as people with a legitimate need…” Now replace the word Palestinians with Jews and you will represent exactly what you have written about Israel and Israelis. You take such a biased view, without representing Arab or Palestinian culpability in this mess, that you essentially justify their unjustifiable actions while blasting Israeli actions, including a peace offer that included a two state solution.
May I suggest that you lay out tonight and look at the stars and think about the idea of balance.
Shalom, Cara. As a UF Alum, I feel compelled to respond to your post: Go Gators!
To be perfectly blunt, reading everything posted here, I am left to wonder how many of you have any real knowledge or experience conducting US college campus pro-Israel activism. You all spout theories, and ethics, and ideologies, but with due respect, some of you sound like you’ve never handed out flyers, counterprotested, or tried to lead a mass student education in your lives. So spare me your bleeding hearts on this one. I am in no way right wing, but some of you simply have no concept of the phrase “this is simply the way it’s done”. and i can already hear some of you itching at the computers saying, ‘but it just shouldn’t be that way, it’s not right…’. well, ck and shtreimel summarized it perfectly earlier. and some of you, unfortunately, will probably remain in your cave of idealism getting nothing done for the cause. cheers.
“I can live in a world that is scary and where everyone is trying to kill me, or I can live in a world where I am trying to see where can I be a better human being, REGARDLESS of the circumstances. If you wish to live in a world where everyone outside your frame of reference is against you (and you are in the company of presidents, brother, how noble), you will probably find that it is so. For you can only read the world through the eyes which you look with.
But if you are prepared to take a risk and stick your neck out in the name of making a difference to the way we are evolving – all of us, human beings – and see the interconnectedness which permeates all (“I am that I amâ€), you might just discover the hidden power within you to change your life, and others. And to bring healing where there is war. ”
And somewhere out there, millions of Holocaust victims are saying “D’oh! I could have lived in that other world, stuck my neck out, found my hidden power and brought healing.”
T_M, you have more patience than Hillel. I don’t know how you do it.
J and T_M, at least some people who can see something.
All these idealists and peace loving doves…I also want peace, I do.
Its not us Jews who make it “we” vs “them.”
They make it like that. They say it. They act it.
Michael don’t you see I agree with you- it shouldn’t be “us” vs “them”-
you’re talking to the wrong crowd!
Go convince your palestinian arab friends! Go convince your other buddies in Europe and the world. Let me know if you find success.
This site is so full of “idealists”…how sweet.
Moby in his newest post says: “contact Joseph if they’re interesting in learning more about the Jewish settlements and Palestinian communities surrounding Jerusalem”-I love his spin. Joseph wants to show Jewish settlements so mobius says “to see palestinian communities…”-again so nice and sweet.
I’d like moby to walk in there to his palestinian “friends” communities wearing a star of david -let’s see if he gets out alive!
I am sorry I don’t have time to read everyone’s posts. But when I read this, the blood began to boil.
And this is what the right-wing Zionist youth movement is spoon-feeding its kids. Lovely.Yes, it would be better if they spoon fed them A. D. Gordon, and other dead Marxists Zionists, so that when they grow up they will be disillusioned with Israel. Or perhaps we should spoon feed them Free To Be You And Me, and sing William Wants a Doll, and just hope that everything will be OK, without any serious thought or action on our parts. Or maybe we can get some good old PZC syrup from the back of the closet, and spoon feed them immense amounts of Peace Now propaganda, denying our spiritual and material inheritance, the foundations of Torah, and everything Jewish. Or maybe we can spoon feed them a really successful Jewish idea. Boy this movement had it MADE. Millions were signing up. I mean this was it! Lets recreate The Bund, and brainwash all the kiddies to go back to Central Europe and start an Autonomous region with Yiddish as the national language, and we can be slaughtered by the next Nazis, Cossacks,or Inquisition that comes along. Ah the possibilities for spoon feeding are so many, and, Alas, we have so few Jewish souls to sacrifice for the cause of a one state solution.
I like it: so far I am unbalanced, idealist peaceloving dove with lots of Palestinian Arab friends…
T_M, Joe, J etc. Look, I have no simple solutions (and neither did I see anyone sprout force any bright ideas that will help us change course).
But I have lived some (and loved some), inc. holocaust induced parental guidance, anti-Semitism, war and more. I don’t think that makes me in anyway special to reject what is going around me or judge those who see things differently. But it has given me plenty time and opportunities to try some different views and practice other angles outside the “we are few against many†and “the whole world is around us†box.
And I found some reverberations to these trials in words of people who are much grander in stature, brains, action, and contribution.
So this is my view, and it works for me. You don’t have to take it on or try it.
I believe (with doubt, and also with hope) that the external reflects the internal. Attitude begets experience. As you sow, so shall you reap. In action, and words. In thoughts, and in habits.
I don’t think Israel as an entity is threatened by the Palestinians. Yes, life there is a shitty mix – dreadful daily diet of terror and security. But it has survived more serious security threats. And like it or not, we are stuck with the one Big Brother this planet has who is feeding us more arms to the point we are what – the 4th or 5th army in the world, so don’t give me the wining of the victim and how endangered you are. If anything, Israel’s existence is questionable because the kind of people we are becoming. Slowly, unconsciously, but surely. We are so good at pointing the fingers at everyone else. I agree with you there are plenty of reasons to find ugliness. The Palestinian leadership is as incompetent, corrupt and war mongering as they come; there are many people on the planet who don’t like Jews. But there is not much we can do about that. But we can get out of the territories, we can stop to build settlement with our left hands while gesturing peace with the right, we can avoid suffocating whole villages so that some miniscule hilltop ‘suburb’ with four caravans and 12 trigger happy cowboys’ can live their Wild East fantasy of the mighty Jew. That is not power, that is stupidity.
But If the words of the likes of Cook and Ghandi will not convince you that there might be a point to ponder in this, what can I say that will? Don’t. But grouch at my so-called propaganda, your problems will not go away. I can promise you that much. And you will not find solutions in shouting better pro-Jewish slogans at campuses, utilizing sophisticated PR techniques or hiring the best coaches. And if you insist on pulling the holocaust to prove how horrible is everyone else, I suggest you might care to read Victor Frankle’s ‘Man’s Search for Meaning’. Maybe he can say something about love that carries more favor in your eyes than peace-loving boy here. God knows he has more credentials to do so…
And for the sake of good vibes, may we all get wiser. 🙂
Michael, with all due respect, you addressed nothing with any substance. Start by realizing that your point of view is not balanced and makes the mistaken assumption that a strong army validates everything else you say and invalidates existential concerns.
I want peace no less than you. I want the Israeli army out of Palestinian lives. Now. I want to give the Palestinians a state. Now. I believe in peaceful resistance.
What I don’t believe is that the current problems will just go away because I can quote Ghandi or stare at the stars. You completely ignore what this war has been about: land. This is a war over the same piece of land and over the rights of two nations to self-detemination over that piece of land or parts thereof. All the Ghandi you wish to quote won’t resolve this significant problem.
Get out of the clouds, stop smelling the roses, and stop claiming that I, for example, said anything about encouraging that some hilltop suburb should suffocate a whole village. On the other hand, don’t dismiss the historic connection of your “happy cowboy” to that piece of land which he considers his heritage. For some reason you play up one and minimize the other while then lecturing us about Ghandi and not grouching.
You did not address anything I wrote, but the one thing that I noted in your response here is that you have a problem with pro-Jewish sloganeering on campuses but you neglect pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel sloganeering on the same campus. Do you mean that if they continue and we abandon the playing field, all will be well?
Jeepers-titty-sniffin’- creepers!!!
‘ “settlement” has become a dirty word — try “suburb,” “community,” or “village”. ‘
Only an American could have come up with this inane bullshit. Why do you cats take such liberties with English, why can’t you go and dumb-down Spanish instead. I was watching IBA news the other day and the (American) presenter actually called a suicide-bomber a ‘homicide bomber’, as if suicide bomber conjures up an image of a kindly old man with his grandson on his lap sucking on a Werther’s Original! Bollox!
Whilst I’m at it…grrrrr!… last time I was in Israel I noticed all the teens saying “k’ilo” like every like second like damned word like you Yankees like say like like.
Varshevor,
I’m with you. Honest clear thinking people get angry at deceitful nonsense.
T_M,
Its hard to keep responding to Bergman’s emotional rambling that has no substance. I have to commend you.
Thanks for posting the material, Mobius. I plan to use it in many discussions to come.
Needless to say, without your sick accompanying comments.
T-M: “As long as pro-Israel advocates are responding with facts and truth, there is absolutely nothing wrong with advising them how to do it. If anything, the propaganda machine they face is so well entrenched and sophisticated that without they’ve been able, in their rhetoric, to turn what is essentially a moral country facing an interminable war into an evil entity. It’s a good thing somebody is organizing to neutralize this incessant bullshit.”
I don’t consider ‘suburbs’ to be facts, and I don’t think Israel of nowadays is essentially a ‘moral country’. – I thought I made that clear why (obviously I did not). And, yes, I don’t think hearts are won through sloganeering (of any kind). Anyway, I am boring even myself with this back and forth. “Better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than open it and be proven one”(Lincoln, I think). Shoyn, I made a mistake. Sorry.
And Joe, nothing wrong with emotions if they are not the only driving force behind your actions.
For peace 🙂
And “apartheid” and “Israel is an immoral country” are not facts either. And yet, that is what these students will face upon their return to their North American countries. There is nothing wrong with preparing them for that. We agree about the word suburbs for the most part but it does apply to many neighborhoods around Jerusalem, whether you like the word or not.
Enjoy the stars…and peace to you.
(Objections:Item #6)
So Mobius, do you really think todays sucide bombers who target innocent civilians compares to the Israeli terrorist of the 40s? Am I missing something here?