The Good News: Consensus finally reached between Jews, Christians & Muslims in Jerusalem
Unfortunately the bad news is that the consensus that leaders of the three major Western religions were able to reach is negative: They don’t like the upcoming ten-day long gay pride festival, Jerusalem WorldPride 2005.
Laurie Goodstein and Greg Myre write in today’s edition of the New York Times that major leaders of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have joined forces to try to stop the annual parade.
Shlomo Amar, Israel’s Sephardic chief rabbi was quoted as saying “They are creating a deep and terrible sorrow that is unbearable, It hurts all of the religions. We are all against it.”
Abdel Aziz Bukhari, a Sufi sheik, and head of the Uzbeke community was also quoted as saying: “We can’t permit anybody to come and make the Holy City dirty. This is very ugly and very nasty to have these people come to Jerusalem.”
Finally Rabbi Yehuda Levin, of the Rabbinical Alliance of America – which says it represents more than 1,000 American Orthodox rabbis – added “This is not the homo land, this is the Holy Land.”
However, on a more positive note the Times article reports that:
75 non-Orthodox rabbis had signed a statement of support for the event, and that Christian and Muslim leaders as well as Israeli politicians were expected to announce their support soon.
The festival is planned for August 18th through the 28th and is expected to draw thousands of visitors from dozens of countries.
The land of Israel is worthless (might as well have settled for Uganda) without the Torah. You can’t just flaunt a bible commandment with a parade. It’s not about rights, it’s about a parade specifically about the pride of going against the Torah.
I don’t know about the timing of the ‘festival’.
The last two weeks of summer usually have Israeli teens (prime customers for the ‘festival’) in Eilat and the other market is tourists, but they usually don’t stay past the middle of August as they head back home to get ready for the new school year.
So if the idea was to compromise and get less exposure, then,
I still say that it should be held in the Galil.
I would oppose a hetero-pride parade as well. Sex is for the bedroom, not the street.
The commandment says a man should not lay with another man like a women. or something like that thiss off the top of my head. I dont beilve the Torah metions any women laying with women like she was a man. So then..is lesbianism ok?
And a heartly laff to the this is not the homo land remark. My opnion is they are not trying to change people to be gay, every1 there is already gay. And the gays party to much better than we st8 ppl. I personally would see more comforatble seeing them in Tel Aviv have this parade. But israel has bigger issues.
Everyone sins. Some of us choose not to classify ourselves by a preference for a certain kind of sin and march in a parade in the holiest city in the world. There is a thing called “appropriate venue.”
It’s newsworthy that clerical leaders are opposed to this?
Velvel –
Apparently it is newsworthy as the Times’ slogan is “All the news that’s fit to print”
Tto me, what’s newsworthy about it is the fact that consensus is so hard to come by between the 3 religions and that when some finally does come, the only thing they can agree on is that they each openly condemn perhaps as much as 10% of their own constituency who very likely had no choice in terms of being born gay.
Velvel, you said:
“It’s not about rights, it’s about a parade specifically about the pride of going against the Torah.”
This is not an “anal intercourse” parade, it’s a gay pride parade. Regarding homosexuality in the Torah, only the former physical action is a cheit d’oraisa… in other words, it’s not about “pride of going against the Torah.”
This reminds me of the time when my parents- shortly after their divorce and when they couldn’t even speak to each other- found out I was planning to take some time off of school and, united in anger, called and b*tched me out.
Velvel- if you’ve ever been to a pride parade you know it isn’t a “gay sex” parade. It’s about respect for and pride in the full spectrum of races and ethnicities, genders, spiritualities. It’s about human beings’ love for one another. These are huge themes in all the worlds’ major religions, so why not?
“Jinx” Yaakov. That’s two votes for Pride Parades not being Anal Sex Parades. Although that would have a certain cachet…
“who very likely had no choice in terms of being born gay”
could also be read as:
“who very likely HAD choice in terms of being born gay”
The jury’s out. As a clinician I can site much evidence to support the “HAd choice” arguement. Regardless (and this topic is being bashed to death over at Jewlicious), high fives to the clergy for not putting up with such a blatant and stinky PR move.
“if you’ve ever been to a pride parade you know it isn’t a “gay sex” parade”
BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH….
Hell, I’ve been to ’em. Danced and everything. And the amount of nudity and overt sexual play was astounding. And to see mothers, fathers and kids attending these things is incredible. It’s amazing what we accept as “normal” today. And normal ain’t always healthy.
Siviyo, you’re very sweet but very naïve. The world’s major religions only claim love for all human beings as a theme. There is very little in the actual practice, as our esteemed spiritual leaders and some other commenters have demonstrated on this specific issue, that appears to bear this out.
I’m with HaZeev. Israel has other issues, especially other issues upon which these religious leaders could help draw their followers into a concenus.
And what have we all learned from Jewschool today???
That Israel can unite over two things: soccer and homophobia.
Oops.
This:
“”who very likely HAD choice in terms of being born gay”
should’ve typed as this:
“who very likely HAD choice in terms of being gay”
Yaakov,
I don’t like spiders in my bed. This doesn’t make me Arachnophobic.
You’re swallowing that PC boy, becareful, it ain’t always good for ya.
I know for a fact Velvel lived less than 50 yards from the main thouroughfare of Chicago’s massive Gay community and its annual pride parade. Most often the parade is about public intoxicaction, disorderly behavior and an overall lewd, overtly sexual attititude which regardless of orientation runs counter to the message of the struggle against aids which was and is so important to the gay community. Gay pride and remmbering Stonewall is one thing. Getting drunk, putting a sequinned thong and parading down Halsted street doesn’t paint a “we’re just like you” picture. Better they should all stay home and show how normal they are, or march down the street wearing busniess suits or khakis. It might make the point better and afect the ‘getting used to it part of the classic queer mantra.
Why are we making this all about sex? These people are being challenged over who they place their affections and lifelong committments with. The sex will happen with or without the parades. No one is taking the Torah away from anyone, but Israeli law is not halacha.
And why shouldn’t the parade be held in the capital city of the state of Israel? Either it is a Jewish state’s capital city, or the “binantionalists” are right and it should belong to the religions of the world. Or can we have it both ways?
Shmavis speaks the truth.
shmavis,
Let’s compare Chicago to Yerushalayim, and St. Patrick’s Day in River North to County Cork.
I fail to see the problem here. If you don’t like it than don’t attend. A parade with no audience is not going to be very successful.
http://talk.guardian.co.uk/Web…
I know for a fact mavalamavis lived less than 50 yards from the main thouroughfare of New York’s massive Jew community and its annual pride parade. Most often the parade is about public intoxicaction, disorderly behavior and an overall lewd, overtly sexual attititude which regardless of orientation runs counter to the message of the struggle against the usurious urge which was and is so important to the Jewish community. Jewish pride and remembering the noisy, clumsy, at times cheesy Jewish-American “coming out” in the Seventies is one thing. Getting drunk, putting a sequinned thong and parading down 8th street doesn’t paint a “we’re just like you” picture. Better they should all stay home and show how normal they are, or march down the street wearing busniess suits or khakis. It might make the point better and affect the ‘getting used to it’ part of the classic assimilationist mantra.
Better they should all stay home and show how normal they are, or march down the street wearing busniess suits or khakis.
1st check out Michael Warner’s “The Trouble with Normal”, then we can talk. I can just hear christian europe telling the Jews they should not “flaunt” their judaism with payot and kippot. That they should just accept christ, but if they insist on being “abnormal” at least they should do it in secret. Hmm, seems like we went through that, it was called the inquisition. Jews, of all people, should be able to understand the value of open diversity within society.
This issue of this parade is of tremendous importance.
It should be stopped.
Haazev, it is issues like this that are the important issues. G-d forbid that we are adding sin upon sin. It is things like this that will cause us to lose wars. There is a G-d and although you might not immediately see the effects of actions like this punishment will ultimately come.
John Brown,
It can be shown logically that it is impossible to say that a person is born that way – but it is rather learned activity.
Yusul wrote:
I can just hear christian europe telling the Jews they should not “flaunt” their judaism with payot and kippot.
———————– ———————– ——-
The Jews had a clear reason for their difference, related to culture and religious values.
Sorry, Yusul – last time I checked persecuted minorities don’t parade down Main Street in sequined thongs, figuratively flipping the finger at their “host culture”. Certainly the Jews never were allowed to do that in Euroape. They either assimilated, or accepted their marginal status for what they felt were good reasons.
The gays are making very sophisticated use of modern vicitmology politics. They hop back and forth – sometimes in the same conversation – between pseudo-scientific assertions that gayness is a normal variation of human sexuality, and theatrical dramatizations of themselves as tragic figures.
They easily slip between out-n-proud and “no one would WANT to be born this way” as the argument suits them. But these two assertions are mutually exclusive.
So:
are gays normal – in which case they should stop using the victimology drag to influence public policy, and explain why they are walking down Main Street in thongs…
– or is homosexuality really a tragic thing – in which case The Rest of Us are justified in asserting it is dysfunctional, and not to be “tolerated” any more than alchoholism or drug use are.
Can’t have it both ways.
Can pro-gay people please pick one thesis and stick with it – for at least the duration of a single conversation?
Ben-David
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/ha…
American Christian opposition to the pride parade is led by Leo Giovinetti of the Mission Valley Christian Fellowship in San Diego. His petition to the Jerusalem city council states: “Jerusalem even belongs to the faithful Evangelical Christians. We can’t let the proposed homosexual event take place.”
This is Evangelical Christianity’s profound respect for Zionism that our right wingnut friends are so convinced of.
Photo of the press conference denouncing the right of Israel’s gay citizens to march
You might like to lurk the discussion on The Guardian’s talkboards… http://talk.guardian.co.uk/Web…
i am constantly amazed that a group of people subjected to the most constant stream of persecution can be so intolerant and racist.
never fails to amaze me.
maer_sf,
What is racist about being against people engaging in disgusting practices?
How is being against these practices different than being against sodomy?
The fact is that what is done affects us all and we will all suffer the punishment. I am against them just as I would be against people who would bring chemical poison that are a danger to the public.
The only person here who is against the parade and I understand is Velvel.
All the others against the parade who for some reason don’t want to say that we will be punished and that G-d is watching-I don’t understand them.
Without that true reason why would you care if they engage in these practices?
Oh my goodness! I was just hit in the face by a flying stereotype!
Last year, my friend and I were caught smack dab inthe middle of the Dyke Parade (thats what they billed it as) in NYC. The THeme was “Lick Bush in 2004”. Their were plenty of chiks that were practically topless, except for tape on nipples and crap, and wore shirts that said garbage like, “I’ll do your girl better then u”, or “WHo needs Cocks”… and it was in my opinion pretty irresponsible considerign all the children out that day… BEsides these were the manly lookin chicks,not he hot Porno ones..WHy do they feel its necessary to flaunt their crap in The HOly of HOlys… and disrespect the vast majority of the Population???
DiGiTaL: I don’t see any naked people in the photo of the Jerusalem march
I have the feeling Jerusalem was chosen out of spite rather than a symbol of all the ‘good’ things jewschool stands for.
Holding a parade in the holiest city of the religion that thought us that sodomy is wrong, seems like payback. Another good reason to give Jerusalem to the muslims.
Oh, you poor, delicate people! Trapped by all those homosexuals at a party that happens once a year where they don’t have to pretend they’re just like you for once! It must have been awful! You’re obviously still traumatised. I do pity you. Truly.
1. Lesbian sex is forbidden by the general rule, “don’t do as they do in Egypt …”(Leviticus, 18:3, see Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Isurei Biyah, Chapter 21, Rule 8)
2. Anal sex is kosher as long as it’s between a man and woman (husband and wife, obviously as long as she’s not in niddah), although ejaculation is problematic and it shouldn’t be done too regularly (see R’ma, Shulchan Aruch, Even Ha’ezer, Siman 25, S’if 2)
Like the sign says, “Love without borders,” but save your private parts for your zivug. Between this and the Gaza pullout, could we possibly need Mashiach any more desperately? Don’t answer that . . . MASHIACH NOW!!!
heyall,
would you mind stop using the word “sodomy”?
The Tanakh is explicit (across many different books, wherever it’s mentioned) that the sins of Sodom in response to which God destroyed the city were not sins of homosexual intercourse — they were sins of social injustice and oppression.
Steg,
It was both. If you remember when Lot had guests in his house and the people of Sodom encircled the house and demanded that Lot allow them to “know” and be “familiar” with them. Lot then offered his daughters to them instead but they weren’t satisfied with that – they wanted his guests. Genesis chapter 19 Here is a link in English:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/…
Unfortunately Steg Sodomy and adultery on the one-hand and injustice on the other seem to commonly come together.
This thread has been one of the most disgusting displays of homophobia and hate I have seen in a long time. Before you criticize queer folk, give it a shot, who knows, you just may enjoy yourself. 🙂
Yusul wrote:
This thread has been one of the most disgusting displays of homophobia and hate….
– – – – – – – – – – – – –
… as yet another leftie sidesteps real argument with victimology politics. Quick, they’re making sense – slap a label on them!
Ben-David you’re right on the money.
What they do is:
sidestep solid questions, repeat themselves and label others.
There is a reason that just about all the talkshow hosts are right-wing: The left are only good at sound-bites. They could not last a real debate.
Joe:
The reason that God destroyed Sedom is layed out in the previous chapter:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/…
pasuq 20:
“…the scream of Sedom and ‘Amora…”
God doesn’t mention homosexuality; and it’s not like the people of Sedom wanted to have sex with the angelic visitors for homosexual pleasure; they explicitly say that the purpose is to hurt them – “we will deal worse with thee”, in the English translation you referenced (19:19) — nara‘ in Hebrew. Their purpose wasn’t to have loving relationships with them — it was, like rape generally is, they say, for power and hurting.
I’m not denying the halakhic prohibition of homosexual intercourse; i’m just pointing out that the situation of Sedom is not relevant to the issue of gays in society today.
“as yet another leftie sidesteps real argument with victimology politics. Quick, they’re making sense – slap a label on them!”
Ben David…you’re a breath of fresh air…and you’re noggen seems to function quite well. I usually back off when the homophobe stuff starts flying, but you hang in there. Good on you bro.
Oh, and Yusul…while we’re at it, why don’t we try ANYTHING that we’re curious about, you know, just to see if we like it. Scat, suicide, crack….anything. You never know, you just might like it.
Nah, this isn’t about homophobia. It’s a few Jews saying Judaism actually stands for certain things….certain things are kosher and others, not so kosher. And that crosses path with the widsom of the day, mainly to do whatever you want so long as: a) no one gets hurt physically b) no one dies. Other than that, party on.
Side note: The sponsor for my lead singer (an ex-lead singer of mine was/is in AA) was gay. He thought the whole “monogamy” thing that gay men talk about is a joke. Now maybe this was just his group of friends. But the dude was 35. He said that a perfect night for his buddies and himself was receiving/giving a blow job in a gay movie to a stranger.
Steg,
I understand what you are saying but I you can learn from Lot’s response to the people of Sodom.
Sedom was very into promiscuity and of course by force too. You can tell that they were promiscuous in general since Lot sought to satisfy them with his daughters. Lot certainly interpreted Sedom’s people as wanting to be promiscuous and Lot lived with them – he knew. But his daughters were not enough for them…
Our Rabbis from around 1500-200 years ago also explained it this way but I think its pretty apparent from the text.
The world calls it Sodomy for a good reason.
By the way Steg, the generation of the flood were also into promiscuity: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/…
“for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth”-The Rabbis also explain that they corrupted the normal order of things – people had relations with animals… so it was a common thing.
Ben-David: “… as yet another leftie sidesteps real argument with victimology politics. Quick, they’re making sense – slap a label on them!”
Joe Schmo: “What they do is:
sidestep solid questions, repeat themselves and label others.”
Like “leftie,” for example….
I think it would be hilarious if someone planned a heterosexual pride parade to be held in San Francisco.
Of course if people wore t-shirts mocking gays (as opposed to t-shirts mocking straights) the whole tolerance rhetoric would disappear.
The evangelical, etc… opposition to the parade is unconscionable. I opposed it in my column on ynetnews, found here: http://www.ynetnews.com/articl… We reported on this story long before the NYT.
I have been in the last 3 Gay Pride Parades in Chicago and they are about fun, community pride, and politicians proving they are not homophobes.
They are fun! Get with and I find it sad that anyone would care about a festival about gays. There are fests for Jews, and Mardi Gras, and and numerous other delightfully sinful things. If you don’t like them, don’t attend.
Who CARES what they like or do not like? Let them stay home and mind their own business, that’s all!
All I’m concerned with is that I or anyone I choose to affiliate with should be assaulted or stabbed by some Kahanist illiterate, and that such animalistic behavior will not be tolerated (as it was not, last year).