Aw, Christ!
So Christianity Today has picked up the 50 Shekel story, and couldn’t help but seize on the opportunity to exhibit the very worst of Jewish reactionaryism: A quote from a Jewschool reader who wrote, “Kill him. These Jews for Jesus give me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I can’t even describe the sheer and utter disgust and contempt I feel for these heretic mamzers.”
So much for interfaith dialogue.
Look, this guy doesn’t speak for everyone, and his words were damn harsh. He obviously has — in the words of Hunter S. Thompson — “no faith in the inherent decency of the white man’s culture.” But at least try to understand where he’s coming from. If I may be as so bold as to speak on behalf of the Jewish people for just a minute (for the obvious irony of the fact that no one has the right to):
Dear Christians,
It’s not that we think you’re terrible people or anything. It’s just the Jesus thing really. Well, that and the persecution.
Just stop trying to redeem us! That’s the problem with Messiahs, and why we kept rejecting them — including yours. Messianism always tends to take the yoke of personal responsibility off the individual and places it upon some lofty mythical figure who’ll descend from the heavens and make everything all right.
Look, we pray for Moshiach, but considering he’s merely alluded to in one of the later volumes of prophetic writings, the role of a saviour isn’t exactly one central to our theology, Chabadniks aside. Despite the addition of messianic prophecy to Rambam’s 13 Principles of Faith, our religion is most directly concerned with taking practical steps towards insuring the existence of a just society, which is incumbent on being a just and righteous people. Our system ain’t perfect, but when it works, it works miracles. In that sense, The Kingdom of Heaven is just a lofty metaphor for seeing that rather daunting feat manifest. We pray for redemption — but only the foolhearty think it’s really gonna come (even if, “on paper,” we have to). We’re more focused on redeeming ourselves, with the practice of Judaism.
All this ultraserious nonesense about “missing the bus” and whatnot — really, it’s a moot point. I could care less if the countdown to extinction is ticking away. What does accepting Jesus into my heart have to do with the price of tea in China? Is it so relevant that you’ll posthumously baptize deceased Holocaust victims, solicit souls in the subways, or send covert ops on birthright israel trips? I mean, give me a friggin’ break here!
What bearing does believing in Jesus have on putting food on your table, being good parents, taking care of the disadvantaged, and so forth? Couldn’t Jesus have just been a rabbi teaching these values without having to fulfill some bunk prophecy so abstracted and overwraught with exegesis that there are entire libraries filled with examination of the utter minutae of a slice of text that doesn’t even discuss an obligation that God commanded you to fulfill?!
All the time you spend arguing text to us — the people who invented arguing over text — you could be organizing Food Not Bombs kitchens and doing direct action to feed the homeless! Rather, you elect war profiteers to crusade towards Armageddon (which, by the way, ain’t in our books)! You should be saving the environment and standing up for civil rights, not enthroning their destroyers! After all, what would Jesus do? Bash queers and clearcut old growth forests? He defended the humanity of a hooker to an angry mob for Christ’s sake! He was a fuckin’ granola eater! Eat the granola! The planet is dying and taking us with it!
Face it, under historical scrutiny, it’s obvious that Christianity as it exists is just a perpetration by the Roman establishment which was losing its grip due to its own corruption. They needed a new myth, and coopted the greatest story ever told — ours. That story includes early Christianity, which was a Jewish sect none too different from some which exist today. (And on that note, all disciples think their Rebbe is Moshiach. It’s “The Law.” Sanhedrin 98b to be exact.) But our version of events sure ain’t the same as yours.
Which isn’t to say that Christianity isn’t chockfull of nuggets of wisdom and good moral lessons. It is. But so were all the myths and customs of the indigenous tribes Christianity wiped off the face of the Earth in its conquest to fulfill some bullshit prophecy, or to make a buck in the name thereof. No matter how kick-ass Southern gospel music is, I can’t tell you how I shudder when I see black missionaries in the subway reeking of Stockholm Syndrome. It’s why I have a soft spot for The 5% Nation of Islam. To quote the Flannery O’Connor character Hazel Motes, in the most brutal of terms and with the same voracious honesty, “Jesus is a trick on niggers.” Thankfully we have five millenia of teaching to keep us from falling for it.
Look, if Christianity helps you be a good person, kol hakavod, more power to ya. But when you start hanging it over our heads like you’ve got the hot shit we’re sleeping on, you can save it. Stop taking advantage of hapless kids like 50 Shek. What he needs is a hug, not Jesus.
Oh, and please stop making friends with the religious right in Israel. These people are trying to spark a holy war which really isn’t going to end up being very pleasant for anyone involved.
Really, if you’re committed to the service of God, and you’re truly devoted, you’re better off dropping the whole “Christ” baggage. It ain’t worth the hassle. We got the good shit you’re looking for, and we’ve got it on lockdown. Just ask Madonna. (And she doesn’t even have a clue! It’s a strange time when Kabbalah becomes the surface and Torah is the depth.)
Besides, I know some very important people who would be more than happy to have you join the tribe…
Love and kisses,
The Youngin’s of Zion
amen brother
all that’s well and fine, but who’s G-d has the bigger dick?
this misses the theological ikkar, central to christianity’s mission: acceptance of Jesus is the only way redemption can come. As long as this is the law, mssionizing cannot stop. it would be wrong to stop.
The only way out, if you ask me, is to redefine acceptance of Jesus, as not being surrender to a particular personality, but acceptance of the truths that the poor fellow was insisting on so desperately. until the whole world knows that God loves them andwe are one, the rapture has not yet come. can we spread this meme around the christian community?
Speaking as a halachiclly trained hebrew, i know all too wel the magic of dogmatic truths: they must be respected in order to be transcended. If you just tell someone not to believe their truth anymore, only the weak willed or unhappy will consent. to realy change the belief of the faithful, the only recourse is redefinition. this was the trick in halacha that got us out of the bible law slavery, and let us keep piety in good condience. the same can be done anywhere, for muslims, police, and tax collectors. tell them their truth is true, and it means something deeper than we ever realized. try it and see!
p.s. my spamblock word is “revamped” this is getting scary!
That was offensive to many christian and Jews, its not our position to tell them why their religion isnt true, cut this holier than thou and im right your wrong attitude. And i dont just mean that on this issue.
Oh crap…sorry guys.
First of all, to say all rational Jews have gien up a hope for a time when everyone stops hating and begins to love (maybe in the name of Hashem, you never know) I like tot hink some people still have faith in the idea that if we all work hard at being good and upright, we can bring about such a time. That’s all moshiach is, really.
And great letter, it was low on the Offense-O-Meter for me, but that’s just me.
And with that, the Rebbe is not moshiach (again) so shut up my Lubavitch brothers, you’re ruining Chabad for the rest of us.
I agree with the last post. I could get in to the nit-grit details of how your portrayal of “Christianity” is short-sighted and telescoped onto a particular sect of fundamentalism in order to represent the whole Christian ethos. Instead, I’ll just add that I think it is despicable that such an “enlightened” Jew-boy would call someone else’s whole dogma bullshit.
Oh, and moshiach isn’t central? Check the 13th bracha of Shmona Esrei.
I’m officially over Jewschool. You’ve taken shit too far.
tzachi
why should you be over jewschool just because of mobi’s latest entry.
I honestly see that mobi has grown tremendously in the past year or so and is really solidifying his hashkafot.
he’s not a talmid chacham(yet) so why should you expect such from him?
“This guy doesn’t speak for everyone.”
“If I may be as so bold as to speak on behalf of the Jewish people.”
Do the Jews a favor and try to speak only on your special sector of Jewish heretics.
This post isn’t so much putting down Xianity, but rather anyone of faith.
“only the foolhearty think [messianic redemption is] really gonna come” I mean, what does Maimonides know, anyway?
And you’re just emphasizing good deeds over any kind of religious exercise at all, as usual, as if doing good to others is everything. Why exactly do we need God and His texts to teach us that? Isn’t that kind of stuff obvious? Exercise good deeds all you want, but I don’t see what it has to do with Judaism. It seems to me that you care very much for being Jewish, but according to everything you’ve ever said, I sure as hell don’t know why.
There are plenty of proofs for why Xianity in general isn’t accurate, but the biggest thing against Jews for Jesus is that it relies on deception, using familiar Jewish terms, where it’s never openly used for real Xians. It’s not even honest proselytizing.
Hey!! whats with the messiah bashing!! If you read the gemorrah youède see that during the bar kochba rebellion, he actually COUL HAVE BEEN THE MESSIAH(even the famed rabbi akiva beleaved in him)!!!but he screwed up and the rest is history. But that didnèt stop everyone from saying many times in the tefillah that we wish he could come speedely in our days!! Also elswhare it talks about how the followers of the diffrent groups in the talmud beleaved that theire rebbe was moshiach!!!
Anyway my point is that the thirteen principiles of faith arent just nice things to look at and thick abou. The thirteen principles actually DEFINE What a jew is. If you dont beleave in them there is a huge quistion if youre still PART OF THE JEWISH
FAITH. Its a hell of alot more important than you make it. I would go so far as to say, if you dont beleave that the messiah is coming(and wait for him every day, as the text reads) You might as well not beleave in g-d eather, so f-ck you if you think belief and actuallyWAITING every day for him(chofetz chaim had a packed suitcase always ready under hes bed) is bull shit, cose it sure as hell aint.
The posting times are always curious as you can see who waited till after Shabbos to post and what their opinions are.
First of all, to say all rational Jews have gien up a hope for a time when everyone stops hating and begins to love (maybe in the name of Hashem, you never know) I like tot hink some people still have faith in the idea that if we all work hard at being good and upright, we can bring about such a time. That’s all moshiach is, really.
Ie., “In that sense, The Kingdom of Heaven is just a lofty metaphor for seeing [the] rather daunting feat [of being just people and having a just society] manifest.”
I have faith that that can be accomplished. I think most Jews do. I just don’t think anyone’s going to come down from heaven and hand it to us, even though, as I said, we pray someone will. Rather than count on that person to come, however, we work towards that aim, by practicing halakha.
…
I agree with the last post. I could get in to the nit-grit details of how your portrayal of “Christianity” is short-sighted and telescoped onto a particular sect of fundamentalism in order to represent the whole Christian ethos. Instead, I’ll just add that I think it is despicable that such an “enlightened” Jew-boy would call someone else’s whole dogma bullshit.
i agree that i painted christianity with a wide brush. i think there are some sects of christianity that are right on and closer to the original form of christianity, such as quakerism. my letter is more directed towards evangelicals and proselytes than anyone else.
as per the dogma, if i’m willing to call out judaism on its bullshit dogma, why should i be afraid to call someone else out on their’s?
Oh, and moshiach isn’t central? Check the 13th bracha of Shmona Esrei.
that’d actually be the 15th and there are also allusions to moshiach and the resurrection of the dead in the first and i believe fourth brakhot. like i said, we pray for moshiach. but that’s three mentions in 19 brakhot. all the rest deal with the greatness of god and our pleas for help, guidance, and forgiveness. jewish practice isn’t about waiting for moshiach. it’s about working on yourself and working in your community. it’s not about being saved, it’s about being worthy of being saved, through your actions.
…
I mean, what does Maimonides know, anyway?
this is what frustrates me about orthodoxy — the elevation of the words of every rav to “m’sinai” status. rambam was brilliant. but rambam can be criticized too. rambam lived at a time of great persecution. of course he’d focus on moshiach. he was praying for a miracle.
And you’re just emphasizing good deeds over any kind of religious exercise at all, as usual, as if doing good to others is everything.
i’m sorry, but i thought i had emphasized the fact that it was through jewish practice that we learn what good deeds are and how to carry them out. through talmud torah and the practice of halakha, we accomplish this things. that’s my whole point. what does moshiach have to do with me keeping halakha? this whole “portion of the world to come” dogma is pointless. you shouldn’t keep torah to score brownie points with moshiach and get a front row seat to the celestial fireworks. you should keep torah because you love god and want to serve ‘him’ selflessly. you do that by fulfilling the obligations laid out in the torah. show me where in the torah it says you’re obligated to believe that one day a redeemer is going to come and make everything okay. which one of the 613 is it, hm?
It seems to me that you care very much for being Jewish, but according to everything you’ve ever said, I sure as hell don’t know why.
maybe it’s because you come to everything i say with a shitty disposition presuming the worst of my intentions without knowing me from a hole in the wall.
…
The thirteen principles actually DEFINE What a jew is.
according to one rabbi 560 years ago. i wasn’t aware that one man could define for everyone else what a jew is.
as per the rest of your remarks, deep faith, they say the temple will only be rebuilt in a time of ahavat chinam. to me, that’s what moshiach represents … the mind set of free love. and that’s what jesus represents in christianity. it’s not up to just one person to have unconditional love, however. it’s up to all of us. telling me i shouldn’t believe in god because i think being a righteous person is more the focus of judaism than believing in moshiach is a chilul hashem. accepting me and our differences, on the other hand … that is what will lead to our redemtion.
I once heard something attributed to Martin Buber, though I must confess I’ve never checked to see if it was really his. But anyway, supposedly he said something to the effect that:
The main difference between Jews and Christians is that we’re waiting for the Messaih to come and they think the Messiah has already come and are waiting for him to come again. So why not just wait until he gets here and just ask him if he’s been here before.
I’ve always liked that philosophy. FWIW.
“only the foolhearty think [messianic redemption is] really gonna come”
Keep blasting “ahavat chinam” cries while dismissing Jews who believe in Messianic Redemption (a basic tenet of faith of the entire Orthodox Jewish population, you know, “the people who invented arguing over text” ) as “foolhearty.” For the one who cries “70 faces of the Torah,” you seem pretty cocky in your version.
“and that’s what jesus represents in christianity”
Follow me back for a second. Xianity Today posts a bad quote about J for J from a commenter on your site. You try to do some damage control (can’t piss off the Xians). You not only put down the small J for J sect which was the initial offender, but you put down ALL (“foolhardy”) people of faith. But Jesus was okay because he, like, taught a man to fish and shit. Your moral of the story: Being good and saving the environment is the only thing that matters. Regardless of the laws written down and passed down, by men who’ve committed a combined, hundreds and thousands of years of studying, you will only follow the laws that you can immediately understand (na’aseh v’nishmah, my ass), and of those, only the ones that directly correspond to your already existing set of morals. And on top of that, anyone who believes different is a fool.
“without knowing me from a hole in the wall”
I said, “according to everything you’ve ever said.” — maybe I should clarify. According to everything I’ve ever read that you’ve written and posted on the internet and according to the books you say you read and the company you keep and your heroes and everything you praise and put down, I don’t know why you like being Jewish any more than you would an agnostic, “moral” atheist (is a man fucking another man in the ass being a good person? maybe he’s doing a mitzvah of loving thy neighbor as thyself. Gathering sticks on the Sabbath to feed the homeless is totally cool, and hip!).
If you peruse all of TaNaH you won’t find any clear references/direct references to Moshiach, or the after life. There’s a good reason for this; We as Jews need to be concerned with our deeds here today and follow the laws for their own sake and not be too concerned about when Moshiach will come or what he’ll look like or who it’ll be.
Moby posting on behalf of the Jewish people… gives me chills.
The posting times are always curious as you can see who waited till after Shabbos to post and what their opinions are.
velvel • 06/11/05 09:30pm
i actually posted close to 12am and my post read 7.30….
so much for your theory……
back to the subject at hand…
this guys nuts! he probably never had so many hits on his website… i think we should not feed his mania anymore and ban his website too..
look at this..
http://50shekel.com/Banned.cfm
um, are you saying you posted at 12am Friday night? AC, that’s still shabbos…sundown to sundown buddy.
Moby, I’m with you on this one. I could live without the profanity, but Jews for Jesus and all this prostelyzing needs to stop. It betrays an ignorance that is damaging to Christians and Jews alike. As someone who grew up in a Christian family, went to a Christian school from pre-school to high school and someone who converted halachikally to Judaism after college, I’ve got a lot of old friends (yes, sadly, Christians) telling me I’m going to hell. Honestly, it’s ridiculous. Not that you have to be Jewish to be a good person, Judaism has no monopoly on that, but I’m a better person than I’ve ever been, and I’m a lot happier. If that’s going to send me to hell, I look forward to meeting all of the wonderful people Christians have sent there over the years.
I applaud the article. I don’t know you Moby, but thanks for the post.
Keep blasting “ahavat chinam” cries while dismissing Jews who believe in Messianic Redemption (a basic tenet of faith of the entire Orthodox Jewish population, you know, “the people who invented arguing over text” ) as “foolhearty.” For the one who cries “70 faces of the Torah,” you seem pretty cocky in your version.
messianic redemption is foolhearty (which i’ve just learned is actually spelled foolhardy). it’s wreckless and dangerous. as i wrote, it takes the yoke of personal responsibility off the individual and places it on some abstract mythical being.
Follow me back for a second. Xianity Today posts a bad quote about J for J from a commenter on your site. You try to do some damage control (can’t piss off the Xians). You not only put down the small J for J sect which was the initial offender, but you put down ALL (“foolhardy”) people of faith.
i wasn’t attempting “damage control” i was explaining why i, and many others, can identify with the anger of the original commentor, and i was pointing out how christianity today was all too happy to latch onto that quote so that they could play their own persecution card and/or effectively make jews look intolerant and evil.
secondly, i didn’t put down all people of faith, i said that messianism is not a primary focus of jewish belief or practice. i think messianism is dangerous and unessential. maybe it’s essential to orthodoxy but yeah, i think most orthodox people are narrow minded, superstitious and foolish, and frankly, i think that orthodoxy is, in some ways, avodah zarah. avraham avienu would smash it for the idol it is. and i think feeling that way is better, and more consistent with our tradition, than being orthodox and believing that people who believe in modern and progressive forms of judaism are rashaim who are going straight to gehonim. because believing that puts you in line with the people who burned rambam’s books.
But Jesus was okay because he, like, taught a man to fish and shit. Your moral of the story: Being good and saving the environment is the only thing that matters. Regardless of the laws written down and passed down, by men who’ve committed a combined, hundreds and thousands of years of studying, you will only follow the laws that you can immediately understand (na’aseh v’nishmah, my ass), and of those, only the ones that directly correspond to your already existing set of morals. And on top of that, anyone who believes different is a fool.
velvel, have you read the new testament? what did jesus want from his followers? secondly, what does the torah want from us? sifra kedoshim 4:12 says the klalim gedolim of torah are b’nai adam, b’tselem elokim, and v’ahavta l’rekha kamokha, the latter being the most important, according to rabbi akiva: to love your brother as yourself. what was hillel’s encapsulated recitation of torah, “don’t do anything to anyone you wouldn’t want done to you.” my lord, could it be, that the point of torah is to teach you to be a good person? chas v’chalilah!
in orot hakodesh, rav kook wrote, “Religious behavior must not be allowed to compromise our natural moral sensitivities. If indeed it does, then it is clearly misguided. We know that our behavior is derived from pure and spiritual motive when our innate sense of what is right becomes the more exalted as a consequence of its religious inspiration. If the opposite occurs and the moral quality of the individual and public response is diminished by our religious observance, then we are certainly mistaken in our path and our supposed purity is of no value.” you mean, our torah practice should reflect our internal sense of justice and morality? god forbid! the first chief rabbi of the state of israel said such an ungodly, awful thing?! he should have been placed in charem!
I said, “according to everything you’ve ever said.” — maybe I should clarify. According to everything I’ve ever read that you’ve written and posted on the internet and according to the books you say you read and the company you keep and your heroes and everything you praise and put down, I don’t know why you like being Jewish any more than you would an agnostic, “moral” atheist (is a man fucking another man in the ass being a good person? maybe he’s doing a mitzvah of loving thy neighbor as thyself. Gathering sticks on the Sabbath to feed the homeless is totally cool, and hip!).
again, show me where in halakha it says that i have to believe in moshiach or orthodoxy for that matter?
THE ORTHODOX DO NOT OWN JUDAISM AND DO NOT NECESSARILY UNDERSTAND IT BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE.
The Yid HaKodesh said, “When the Messiah comes, all the righteous will go to meet him — the leaders with their Hasidim. But there will be those leaders to whom the Messiah will say, “Go away with your Hasidim.” Then the Hasidim will come near and cry a lot and will say ‘Oh Messiah, in what way have we sinned; didn’t we have faith that our Rebbe was a true Zaddik? What is your criticism of us?” And the Messiah will reply ‘All man’s life, he should pray to God that he should merit to connect to a true Zaddik; and God will not withhold good from those who are wholehearted. And if you truly wanted to connect with a true Zaddik, he would have enlightened your eyes in truth. Clearly, in truth, your desire was not genuine.”
keep doing what you’re told homey. if and when we get to olam haba, we’ll see who was right.
Mobius, if we start counting various assertions and expressions in Shmona Esrei or Maimonides or Torah itself and assigning merit (zichus: privilege, legal right, title, favor, advantage, [MERIT], virtue purity) to commandments or the nature of Moshiach, we’re not merely making a fundamental error in the Jewish sense, we are making the first and only profound mistake of christianity.
I guess it’s mistaking the beautiful garments for the body. It is a big and terrible mistake that every profound Judaism i have ever encountered seeks to avoid, even the best of Chabad 😉
As for Moshiach i am hardly ready myself . I have always liked: If Moshiach comes while you are engaged planting a tree, finish planting the tree. And what better tree than HaEtz Hayim? Of course very few ever get this quite planted in one’s heart completely from Sinai or after years of study.
As for Jesus, what if he chanced to come to certain “Christians of the Big Mistake?” I dare say many would be disappointed and most would have him executed again.
A good Shavuot to all!
– mason
Im in NY, I posted motzei shabbat at almost 12am
the times of these posts are obviously messed up.
it’s 2.53pm right now, so what time does it read yo..?
yep, you’re right. it reads 11:59am.
This post was hysterical. I can’t believe people are having a who’s-more-kosher battle about a “letter” that suggests christians eat more granola for peace and get with the punk rock charity of food not bombs. thanks for the post, I really enjoyed it. It’s funny and it makes a bunch of good points. Sure, I wouldn’t use it as an interfaith outreach tool, but this is a weblog for hipster Jews. Some of these readers really need to eat more granola, too.
OK. Mobious youve got a good point. ill concede the fact that the diffrence between juidaism and other forms of relegion is that to us the point is to spiritouly rectify the physical world by using to do acts of kindeness. For example giving money, a materealistic thing that has can be used for the most debased moral shit, and use it to fund homeless shelters, soup kitchens….etc. And yes that isnt just something we do, its something that all the faiths of the world can participate in, but.
First off, messiah isnt gonna come and wave a magic wand and poof, the world buitifull, love,……etc. Messiah is gonna come only when the world is loving and kind, not because of him but for G-D, and because thats what G-D wants. On the contrary when messiah comes everyone will be slightly pissed off when they realize that they cant continue!! Game over! hes your prize, Sorry cant keep doing it. Its like it says, the reward of a good deed is the opurtunity to do a good deed again. Why? Because were G-Ds children and the gratest feeling a child can have is when he does something for the parent……
Summation(for those who dont like long posts):
Anyways my point is , yeah were supposed to do good deeds, and all but the same G-D who said that also said that we should work towards(and heres my point)A WORLD WERE MOSSIAH WILL FEEL COMFTERBEL!!!!!!!!
Anyway peace out and have a deeply spiriyiol shavuot, remembered hes actually giving the torah TONIGHT, not thousands of years ago.
ps. This to mobius: as the saying goes, from moses till moses there was none like moses. He was devinely inspired so dont just throw it out the window, the rabbis in the gemorrow, were just rabbis, but they developed aure faith and how we keep it.
-when the jews were marching into the gas chambers they were singing ani mamin, i beleave…..in the MESSIAH,-
This to mobius, Who the hell do you think you are!! first you bash the orthodox saying there narrow minded, and superstitious and foolish and then you continue how open minded you are. What kind of double standerd is that!! if youre so open minded where does all this crap yourwe spewing come from!! Im sure you did a in depth analysis, compared youre way of living…… stop craping on everybody and get yourself straightend out. Just because the relegios have this flaw of hating iriligous it dosent mean shit!! 1.since when di ahavas yisroel become the basis of the whole torah!! and 2, first you bash the ramban and then you hold a f-ckin torch over R. Akivas head as if there are no other dissenting opinoins. At leat the orthodox naroowminde will have to consider allthe veiws since its part of torah and cant be ignored, but YOU? what the hell?!?? you pick what sounds good to you and leave the rest.
Start growing up and realize the whole torah and everything in it as you youreself said before is DIVREI ELOKIM CHAIM. So stop spewing youre misguided shit on others.
I don’t think one needs to accept the 13 principles as literally true to be Jewish, but I also don’t think that simply discarding the idea of messianism leads one to a complete Judaism… in fact, the word “messianism” itself originally denoted a more rationalized version of the doctrine a la Hermann Cohen, who believed that Jews had to bring the world closer to redemption by doing mitzvot and acts of social justice pretty much for infinity, as opposed to the traditional literalist view that an actual man would come and do magic. Beyond both those views are plenty of other kinds of Jewish messianism which aren’t inherently evil or reactionary.
I do think, though, that it’s a waste of time to engage in Jewish vs. Christian rhetoric, especially if you’re going to be reductionist and allow Protestant fundamentalists to stand in for all Christians.
Aldous Huxley had a really nice riff all throughout The Perennial Philosophy about the messianic or temporal religion, which is concerned with changing unchangeable things now and consistently brings forth violence, and the eternal or perennial religion which is concerned so to speak with controlling one’s soul rather than taking the city.
Why give creedance to the non-scriptural, though popular idea, that Jesus was some idealistic hippy who, if alive in this generation would be a food not bombs activist?
I’m reminded of a bit from the Daily Show during the RNC. John McCain calls out Michael Moore as a disingenuous film maker and the whole crowd and all the cameras turn to Moore in his seat standing up loving the boos from the crowd. It cut’s back to John Stewart who says “NOOOOOOO don’t put a camera on Michael Moore he HATES THAT”.
50 Shekel is getting MAD shine right now for converting to Christianity and prostelyzing with J4J, and we’re the ones giving it to him. I agree Mobius, Christians should stop wasting their time prostelyzing to Jews and others for that matter, and i agree with Velvel that they way J4J is dishonest but they are going to continue doing it because they feel they are saving souls, and we sure aren’t going to be the ones that change their minds. So this whole argument is really moot.
Bottom line: You can disagree with Christianity without trying to disprove it (which is especially impossible since the Christian bottom line is faith and not historical validity). Mobius definitely isn’t speaking for every Jew here, and while I agree with his religious/cultural beliefs, I don’t see any value in further hindering interfaith respect.
Too rational. I think you lost ’em.
I don’t see any value in further hindering interfaith respect.
But where is their interfaith respect (…is his point)?
“I once heard something attributed to Martin Buber, though I must confess I’ve never checked to see if it was really his. But anyway, supposedly he said something to the effect that:
The main difference between Jews and Christians is that we’re waiting for the Messaih to come and they think the Messiah has already come and are waiting for him to come again. So why not just wait until he gets here and just ask him if he’s been here before.
I’ve always liked that philosophy. FWIW.
Fun Joel • 06/11/05 10:35pm”
Buber did say that, but he added that he hoped: (and I paraphrase) ‘someone with some sense would be there when the messiah came, and tell him not to answer whether or not he had been here before, for all of our sakes.’ Buber is the sharpest philosopher/theologian that I know of.
My opinions: proselytizing is lame, the attempt to spread morality and to encourage people to do good deeds is one thing but to go around the world making people accept a specific version of a story and devote themselves to a specific name over another is ridiculous. If you ask me, the insistence that people accept Jesus as their saviour is nothing more than idolotry, placing what name one uses to address God over what one does and believes. Jews already accept grace, and don’t need to call it Jesus.
jesus i love being jewish..
foist of all, so nice we’re all still keeping the custom of debating till our faces go blue. young yids armed with wit and spellcheckers (must use yours more often Moby, to do otherwise would be foolhardy..).
next, and this might be a mute point with the open-minded heebs here, we jews ain’t got no monopoly on truth. no one does. heck, defining or qualifying anything as true these days is a tricky argument. for truth is a frisky lil’bitch.
“the answer is yes or no depending on your interpertation” (Albert Einstein).
one thing can be derived from that last point: anyone who slates another’s belief and truly believes they got the “good shit going on” is a tad misguided. or y’know.. foolhardy. i mean, are we in the pursuit of truth, or just being right all the time?
and for that matter: the jews. do we believe in judaism or God? an don’t retort with a koan-like pearler of “judaism IS God”. are we so focused on the Word of God that the Experience of God has become secondary? the same question can be posed to all dogmatic religions.
but back to Moby’s rant. dude, our Testemant isn’t going to beat up their Testament. or the Koran. and ours can as sure as shit be discredited as theirs was in that book you linked to.
bottom line: you can debate text, you can’t debate what you feel. and we can’t put down what the Notzrim feel. we oughta respect it. even if they never respected us. it’s just where they are. just like Moby is ‘where he is’ (somewhere up his own ass i he thinks he can ever speak for the rest of us.. amen.)
The Jews have not and will not ever accept Jesus as the Messiah. To find out why the Jews Do NOT believe in Jesus check out this great page: http://www.simpletoremember.co…
Evangelical Christianity has spend over one billion dollars in the last decade to convert Jews to Christianity. Under the guise of “Jews for Jesus” and “Hebrew Christians,” a new threat of spiritual terrorism has emerged in the form of “Messianic Synagogues,” whose theological tenets are identical to the Christian fundamentalists who created them. Their ultimate goal is the eradication of the Jewish people through assimilation – it is out obligation to stop them.
k&y already said:
“But where is their interfaith respect (…is his point)?”
Sorry, but we have to respect people even if they don’t currently respect us, unless we want to keep the cycle going forever. Christians have the right to missionize us, and we have the right to reject it or dispute it. That’s just democracy. It doesn’t seem like missionaries or Messianic Jews see their goal as being “the eradication of the Jewish people through assimilation,” so I don’t think being outraged about it will do anything except make them more defensive.
Anywho, I realize this is the blog-o-sphere, where we’re all required to be as snarky and obnoxious as possible, but when it comes to the Christian-conversion issue, I believe we’ll ultimately kill more flies with honey than vinegar.
(End of my $0.02)
“…and ours can as sure as shit be discredited as theirs was in that book you linked to. ”
If you feel that the Torah is that easily discredited, why continue believing in it/practicing mitzvos w/ no practical explanation?
I don’t blame 50 Shekel for doing what he does. In fact, I don’t see that many other Jewish artists embracing the Tanach in a phat way like he does. As far as Ju-Tang Clan, Heeb, Jewcy and JDate and the likes…these are prime examples of how we’ve just gone wrong. Perhaps we need to fix things. What’s the deal with Jesus? From the sounds of 50 Shekel’s new music and site, it doesn’t seem like Jesus has done him much wrong. His site seems more kosher than Heeb’s horseradish/coke cuttin on a mirror photo on their latest magazine. Duh…lighten up boychik!
-Jenny
Wow… that was a pretty sad post Jenny.
You know, I don’t that much Jewish pop culture is *claiming* kashrut. 50 shekel is, and it’s an insult.
“Alex: If you feel that the Torah is that easily discredited, why continue believing in it/practicing mitzvos w/ no practical explanation?”
any text, particualrly one as ambiguous and prone to misinterpertation as a Hebrew text, is easy to argue about. and throw in the fact that a bunch of rabbis edited the testament and decided what was in and what was out makes what one defines as The Truth a very soluble thing indeed.
i, personally (and i speak for none but myself) just can’t base my relationship with the Divine on mitzvos and halacha. And each comes with so many different explanantions that i pick the one that resonates with me and, where applicable, attribute my own.(see Douglas Rushkoff’s Open-Source Judaism).
so culturally, i’m a jew – but in order to extract my spiritual meaning out of the gamut of Hebraic discourse and metaphor, i develop my own philosophy which filters the crap i don’t like.
e.g. I drink water on Yom Kippur (oooh) becuase i believe water washes the toxins away. My opinion and i couldn’t care whether i’m right in anyone else’s eyes. just my thing.. Do you really think God’s sittin up there going: “oooh, i never said water! that’s a minus on your report card, buddy!” It’s just my edit. Rather do this than become a krishna or something.
bottom line: never just follow a rule. interrogate, research, adapt or discard. make every mitzva personal and meaningful.
Benyamin, do I detect idolatry? Perhaps Judaism is not what its cracked up to be. Aren’t mitzvos for when the temple’s like supposed to be up? We don’t have a “temple” anymo hmmmm.
Why don’t you guys go outside, feel the fresh breeze, appreciate the wind brushing against your face, enjoy the sunshine….and forget all this trite crap. G-d is everywhere. Why fight amongst yourselves? Do you really think G-d intends you to sit around staring at your computers whinging and whining?
Zaque, you’re a tree-hugger ain’tcha? we’re not fighting, we’re debating – with the odd sucker punch thrown in. but overall, some interesting ideas are being argued and, in some cases, bloody well. it’s bizarre how threatened some yiddlings are of the concept of Jesus and the Xtianity. and it’s our ‘daughter’ religion.. Maybe the rebbes should do one of those pow-wows where they decide what the Tanach should comprise of and include The Book of Yeshua?
it’d make the news, for sure.
Jenny, i think you’re on to me..
the talmud is pretty clear about what should be done with ‘jews for yeshu’ but some people here would think that it is fanatic.
i ain’t one bruv. he’s no messiah but he’s at least a fairly interesting sage. advocated love and a closer relationship with the Big Guy. bad things, are they? hmmm? if he was half as righteous as the christians think he was i can’t imagine he’d have wanted a whole new religion that defied the one he was born into (yeshua was a yid like us for chrissakes..). personally, i find the ‘jews for jesus’ a bloody weird bunch.. too hectic/schizo.. but that’s just me.
ben-yamin “i, personally (and i speak for none but myself) just can’t base my relationship with the Divine on mitzvos and halacha.”
Yes Rabbis have put work into the selection of Torah, and much like Moses De Leon had a vast array of literatrue from which to choose made *their* best torah.
Until i can seriously undertake a personal synthesis/revaluation of the torah cycle, i am quite content getting all the nuance out of Midrash et al.
Mitzvos and halacha are embedded in the cycle and in midrash on the cycle.
When one has arrayed the Torah about oneself, by making one’s own midrash, i see no problem why he can’t dance with it on Simcha Torah.
Just so long as it isn’t with Jews for Jesus 😉
– mason
I’m not usually a purist, but please don’t blame all Christians for the behavior of the Mormons (re: baptizing holocaust victims). No legitimate Christian sect recognizes the Mormons as having any right to further teachings of JC. Wackos in their special underwear.
What bearing does believing in Jesus have on putting food on your table, being good parents, taking care of the disadvantaged, and so forth? Couldn’t Jesus have just been a rabbi teaching these values without having to fulfill some bunk prophecy so abstracted and overwraught with exegesis that there are entire libraries filled with examination of the utter minutae of a slice of text that doesn’t even discuss an obligation that God commanded you to fulfill?!
Read Kierkegaard’s “Philosophical Fragments,” and you will understand. He argues that to do all those good things you mention, be a good parent, etc., one must discover these truths/virtues/or whatever you want to call them. But there is a catch. Either, one already knows the good and doesn’t need to find it since one already knows it or one doesn’t know it and cannot find it because one cannot find what one does not know. A savior is someone who makes it possible or creates conditions to learn the truth. Hence statements such as:
“Even if I should testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.”
“Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you knew Me, you would also know My Father.””
John 8:14 and 19
Emmanuel, you’re clearly a jesus-lovin’ guy so i understand the bias. that’s your truth and that’s cool. it just ain’t mine or most of the other schmendriks here. i personally don’t believe in your testament, but i must say i really like the notion that if a guy were to know where he come from and where he was headed in the greater scheme of things i.e. he had a powerful/spiritual view of his life, he’d live a good one and put the proverbial bread of the table, etc..
and did you pick up the chutzpah in that quote from John. Ole Yeshua could be from Queens!
the catch though: i doubt a belief in Jesus is the ONLY way there.
“only a sith deals in absolutes” Obi Won Kanobi.
Pop spirituality it might be, but look at the humility of the sentiment. No one has a monopoly on truth. Not us, not you.
at last count, there have been many saviour-like fellas: gandhi, mandela, hilel, moses, buddah, pythagoras, maimonedes, rambam, my great-grandfather (super guy if my yentas are to be believed) and many more we’ll never hear of. i still figure the best cats don’t dig the limelight or, y’know, the whole ‘worship me’ cult thing..
woooooa Josh you say the Talmud teaches to murder Jews who believe in Yeshua The Messiah. Talmud…wow…not too far from the Koran. Duhhh… wassup wit dat? Did someone slip us the wrong books? cuz its like Judaism is teachin somethin like Koran….kill the infidel. Thats sick…doesn’t sound like its from God to me. Check back with the 10 commandments…thou shall not kill..that’s enough to see that Judaism is not of God, like it’s more from Rabbis who rejected the Messiah. Oh Lord! 50 might be on to something we never thought about before….we might not be findin the 411 in da shul.
Jenny, you are obviously not with us, why don’t you go off this site…
btw, the talmud never said any such thing.
still ignoring the essencial problem, everyone is: you can’t convince someone that their truth, the truth they grew up nursed with, the truth maintained by their entire communities, is wrong by arguing logically. only people looking for a way out will respond to that.
The only way to convince anyone of anything is to bind it to that which they are already believing. To say Jesus was wrong/a jerk/ a heretic/ a spacelf will not help do anything but maybe make you feel cool for having rejected “their” falsehood. Ridiculing orthodoxy, reform, left wingers, fascists, serves the same un-purpose. Won’t help with anything outside the community of People who Already Agree with You.
There is a way of expressing that is more effective, and it involves opening yourself to listen to what else people are saying when they say what they say. When a Jew talks about how much the palestinians hate him, whether they do or not (of course they do!) he’s telling you that he’s scared, and needs to be calmed, either by walls or weddings.
>
Yeah, it’s only if doing good is the main point of Judaism that judaism can be justified. If my Idol comes and tells me, that my people and my children are chosen to conquer the world, and gives me signs to prove it, and history proves it, guess what?
I might still be evil, and my idol, no matter how powerful he evidences himself, is an evil force. It might well be that this is what’s happening with Am Yisrael, EXCEPT for all the people within it trying to do good. Everything Louis Farrakan ever said about Judaism is true if it’s not ultimately about good deeds as R Akiva seemed to think, and it’s better we were destroyed if so.
fortunately, torah may not be about that, it won’t be if we don’t let it be. please! don’t be led astray by your selfish local god into destruction! it’s not really what any god wants, deep down.
v
at last count, there have been many saviour-like fellas: gandhi, mandela, hilel, moses, buddah, pythagoras, maimonedes, rambam, my great-grandfather (super guy if my yentas are to be believed) and many more we’ll never hear of. i still figure the best cats don’t dig the limelight or, y’know, the whole ‘worship me’ cult thing..
Ben Yamin, you missed the point. Yehsua spoke with authority. He said I am the way and I am the truth (which doesn’t in anyway refute that people interpret the truth in different ways). The people you mention never said that. That was my point, Yeshua enlightened and brought out the law. Hence he said that one can only know the father and law through him, which leads to this:
i ain’t one bruv. he’s no messiah but he’s at least a fairly interesting sage. advocated love and a closer relationship with the Big Guy. bad things, are they?
He advocated more than love and a closer relationship with “the big guy.” Again he spoke with authority. He said I AM THE BIG GUY. If you want to know the big guy then you must first love and know me.
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