Forget Poland
The Poles are suddenly fascinated with the Jewish culture they helped to destroy.
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It’s not as if these are exactly the same Poles… it’s a generation or two later, and the kids understand the injustice that was committed against Poland’s Jews. When I visited Poland in ’97 I encountered both anti-Semitism and warm welcoming. I even met a group of students who had been studying Hebrew and sang Hebrew songs. I don’t view that second group cynically.
So Poland is becoming philo-Semitic… we should complain?
Compare it to what’s happening next door: http://jta.org/page_view_story…
It’s not that new – has been going on for years!!
The condition is – no actual live Jes.
“Suddenly”? Maybe if this was posted ten years ago…
ps: It was the Nazis, not the Poles, who were responsible for the Holocaust. Sure, there were many Polish collaborators, but more Poles helped save Jewish lives than did citizens of any other nation during the war. There were simply more opportunities for both collaboration and rescue in Poland, because it housed the largest pre-war Jewish community in all of Europe. Perhaps that deserves mention too — the fact that before the war, Poland was host to Europe’s richest, most vibrant Jewish culture.
I agree with EV. You should be very careful before you say something like “the culture they helped to destroy” when referring to Poles. Yes, some Poles acted even worse than the Nazis. In the town of Jedwabne, a group of Poles slaughtered the entire Jewish population. Other Poles betrayed their Jewish neighbors to the Nazis for a few zlotys. But there were also Poles who risked their lives to save Jews. And the penalty for helping Jews was death. So it really is a miracle that any Polish Jews survived in hiding at all. Yet thousands of Jews were saved thanks to those Poles.
EV and S,
lets be real. The Nazis set up the death-infrastructure, but the Poles in LARGE MEASURE were grateful to help fulfil a centuries old bitter anti-Semitism.
Sure there were Polish tzaddiks who rescued Jews, but there were much larger numbers who ACTIVELY helped, or were silent supporters, or who remained passive to the whole thing.
NB I agree that the new generation of Poles cannot be held responsible for the sins of the previous generation. Nevertheless they do have a duty – which is not to be insisted upon by us Jews but which should rest on them from THEIR conscience – to make amends for their grandparents. Furthermore, I don’t feel that a hatred so strong it produced the holocaust would simply disappear in one or two generations…..
Europe has always loved its Jews… as long as they’re dead!
Ezra,
If you’re saying the Poles “were grateful to help fulfil a centuries old bitter anti-Semitism” along the same lines as were the French, Dutch, Italians, etc., then it’s one thing. After all, most of Europe was passive and/or complicitous in the genocide. But if you’re singling out the Poles for some uniquely Jew-hating nature that brought about the Holocaust, then you’re completely mistaken. I take it you’ve never been to Poland beyond a March of the Living death tour?
S is right — Poland was the only country in Europe where helping Jews meant certain death. Why do you think this was the case? Why institute a law like that unless A) the Germans knew that many Poles were predisposed to helping Jews; B) the Germans had a Polish revolt on their hands, and they would do anything necessary to control the population. There was no “Vichy” in Poland. Check Wikipedia: “The General Government was a purely German administration, not a Polish puppet government.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G…
Do you think the death camps were manned by Poles? Think again. Germans would never trust Poles to watch over the machinery of death. They were too busy interning Poles themselves (for insurrection/communism/ etc.) The camp guards were Ukrainians, Lithuanians and others.
The only reason the death camps were situated mostly in Poland was because that’s where most of Europe’s Jews existed. The Germans were nothing if not organized, and it didn’t make sense to move entire populations out of their original countries.
But I guess it’s easier to say that the Poles are evil.
Ezra,
While there has always been (and there still is) a very strong undercurrent of anti-Semitism in Poland, to say that Poles “in LARGE MEASURE were grateful to help fulfil a centuries old bitter anti-Semitism” is just plain incorrect. Many Poles were appalled by what the Nazis were doing to the Jews. But there was nothing that they or anyone else could do about it in the face of the massive Nazi juggernaut. And many Poles did indeed risk their lives to save Jews. So you should not stereotype an entire group, which is exactly what anti-Semites like to do to Jews, e.g.: Jews are in large measure greedy, cheap, good with money, etc.
The vast majority of non-Jews in EVERY COUNTRY in Nazi-occupied Europe remained passive and never did a damn thing to help the Jews. They were either too busy with their own problems or they were too scared to do anything or else they just didn’t care (and this includes Holland, which everyone thinks of as a wonderful exeption to the rule).
EV-
Before getting into an analytical debate on the relative goodheartedness of the Polish people circa 1939, speak with survivors of that period who lived in or around Poland. They have nothing but disdain, disgust, and hatred towards the people who were at once their neighbors and their informers, their colleagues and their murderers.
I grew up among Polish survivors, take off your PC hat and see those ignorant, boorish and murderous people for what they were.
Medi,
I don’t wear any hats. I’m basing my thoughts on having lived in the region for several years, having written a book of Jewish history of the region, and having known many survivors, children of survivors, etc., both in Poland and elsewhere. But whatever, if you want to believe Poles are “ignorant, boorish and murderous,” do what you want. I’m not interested in a pissing match, unless I get really bored.
I will concede that survivors who moved to America have (generally speaking) different opinions on their original countries than do survivors who chose to remain in Europe. It’s probably more likely, for instance, that you’ll encounter more survivors in Poland who were saved by Poles than you would in America (I’m assuming that’s where you grew up), because those who remained normally had more favorable views. Sometimes they even married the people who had hidden them throughout the war. There are thousands of people like this, and they wouldn’t call their spouses ignorant, boorish or murderous. They’d probably call them heaven-sent, if anything.
OK. Firstly, I’m never one to fault anybody for being born into something and certainly won’t fault today’s young Polish People for being born into the world they live in. That being said, my sensitivities are rooted in the fact that both maternal grandparents are from Kracow, both lost families and possessions and both came back to poland to salvage life before coming to the US. I visited all over poland way back in ’96 and truth be told, the nicest poles we met were the bus drivers we employed on the trip. I shall never forget the piercing shreik of a wicked little old polish woman who screamed at me “dont taach” (touch) when i pointed at a seder plate in a makeshift shack of a “museum” obviously full of remnants and artifacts, none of which ever belonged to her (i had more right to point at it than she did to tell me what to do) , nevermind the admission fees they earn from countless american and israelis and people from all over who pay to visit their past.
For the Sake of the Poles, I hope that this isnt just merely a passing fad, but its a big fat showing up to the previous generation that their young people are interested in a culture many of them willingly helped to wipe away.
Brings to mind the story of the 2 poles who witnessed a group of modern american hassidim touring the shtetls and one surprised person says to the other in bug eyed shock “i thought we killed them all”
Poles didn’t wait until the Shoah to start hating Jews… Poland was a poor country in 1200’s or so and the Jews came in and were accepted, because, like in other circumstances, we brought an increase in economy to the area. Eventually, Poland even became the center for Jewish learning in Europe. But in the 1600s things fell apart — the Greek Orthodox Cossacks (peasants) got P.O’d at the Catholic nobles who had Jews working for them (we worked as tax collectors, and the Cossacks blamed us for taking their money). Progroms broke out like nobody’s business, and anti-semetism has remained ever since.
My point: so no, we can’t blame them for the entire Shoah any more than the citizens of other European countries, but anti-semetism is something Poland has been noted for, and I assume that reputation will stick around for a while longer… anyway, I’m happy to hear things may be turning around for a change. Hey, too bad were not there to enjoy it!
Poland contributed more names than any other to the list of the Righteous Gentiles at Yad VaShem.
The idea that “Poland” can be simplified to represent the crimes of its worst sons certainly doesn’t see many cognates, say in using “Judaism” or “Israel” to represent the crimes of its worst sons.
It’s like an african-american comedian once said about white peoples relationship with black culture. White people love everything black, black music, black art, black clothing styles, they just don’t like black people. embrace your own culture
Poland contributed more names than any other to the list of the Righteous Gentiles at Yad VaShem. And more Jews to the ovens. The point is that there were vastly more Jews in Poland than in any other European country, so of course there will be more of everything.
But I agree with posters above. This is not about the Holocaust. It’s about all the Polish pogroms that preceded it.
Manhattan hit it on the nail. If we don’t want to be treated as one monolith, why would we treat others this way?
Polish were among the greatest heroes AND villains during Shoa. Don’t paint those who lost their own families after protecting Jews with the broad brush. It’s shameful.
I’m Sephardic, but a lot of you Ashkenazim have Poland to thank for being who you are culturally and spiritually.
Both the title and the entry is extremely ignorant of history. I was suprised that it came from Town Crier.
Gary, if it is as simple as you make it, how did so much Jewish culture and so many religious milestones come to pass in Poland? The relationship between Poles and Jews is a sad one, I think if you’re more interested in this you should pick up a book called Poles and Jews, A Failed Brotherhood.
As a Polish Jew I am deeply hurt by the comments here. It seems that the usual thing is happening. Most of you know surprisingly little of Polish history and only repeat what someone with questionable intent put in your mouths. My family (barely) survived the Shoah and I know very well what was happening here in Poland before, during and after the war. Nevertheless I think you’re just like the people who talk about the “Polish death camps” etc. I would expect more at least from the Jewish commentators who have crossed many lines here.
Piotr, don’t mean to be insensitive but could you be a little more specific: which commenters are offending you, the ones cynical towards Poland or the ones more sympathetic towards it?
Just as a re-cap; I stand by what I said earlier.
Poland was the centre of a very rich Jewish culture for centuries. However part of the dynamic of Jewish life there was a deeply entrenched antisemitism. I’m sorry if this is offending anyone, but I consider it a fact, that antisemtitism was deeply etched into many many Poles. I feel sorry for them that they carry this karma. But if it wasn’t for the complicity of Europe’s gentiles, the Holocaust would never had happened. This complicity (not to even mention support) was facilitated by this deeply etched resentment and hatred against Jews.
I’m actually suprised that there are Jews getting PC about this! I thought it was a closed topic!
Good Shabbos
y family (barely) survived the Shoah and I know very well what was happening here in Poland before, during and after the war.
Dude, almost everyone here with negative things had family who (barely) survived the Shoah in Poland. Where do you think all of this negativity comes from, if not from living in Poland?
I’m Sephardic, but a lot of you Ashkenazim have Poland to thank for being who you are culturally and spiritually.
Oy.
Ezra writes:
“But if it wasn’t for the complicity of Europe’s gentiles, the Holocaust would never had happened.”
That is one of the most outrageous overstatements that I have ever seen. Read my lips: THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THAT THE GENTILE POPULATION OF NAZI-OCCUPIED EUROPE COULD DO TO STOP OR PREVENT THE HOLOCAUST. And it didn’t matter if the country had a tradition of religious tolerance (like Holland) or if it had a strong undercurrent of anti-Semitism (like Poland). The Nazis were a massive, inexorable force that crushed anything and everything in their path — including all opposition to the mistreatment of Jews. They were extremely thorough and extremely determined to annihilate every Jew wherever they found them.
Have you ever read any books on the Holocaust? Have you ever read about the Wannsee Conference? Have you read any books by Martin Gilbert or Raul Hilberg? I think you really need to go to a library and do some serious reading.
S,
Look at it more holistically. The anti-Semitism that belied Nazism was not merely a German or Nazi phenomenon. It was informed by a hatred and antipathy felt right across Europe. If that anti-Semitism did not exist – if for example Europe loved its Jews the way the US loves hers – then I doubt the Holocaust would have happened, or at least not in the scale that it did.
ez writes:
“Look at it more holistically. The anti-Semitism that belied Nazism was not merely a German or Nazi phenomenon. It was informed by a hatred and antipathy felt right across Europe. If that anti-Semitism did not exist – if for example Europe loved its Jews the way the US loves hers – then I doubt the Holocaust would have happened, or at least not in the scale that it did.”
First of all, what makes you think that the US loved its Jews so much? Perhaps today you could say that the Jews have finally “made it” in America. We are rich and successful and politically powerful and we are so well-loved that even the goyim can laugh along with Adam Sandler as he sings his Chanukah Song on Saturday Night Live. But this is not how things were for most of the 20th century.
Anti-Semitism was definitely not a German or Nazi phenomenon. In fact, for much of the previous century, America was also rife with anti-Semitism. After the great wave of Eastern European Jewish immigration at the turn of the century — which caused many in the American WASP establishment to recoil in shock and horror — the US Congress acted to sharply restrict the number of Jews who were allowed into the country. In case you aren’t aware, this legislation effectively prevented hundreds of thousands of European Jews from fleeing Nazi-occupied Europe to a place of safety in the US.
And even after Nazi atrocities became known, there were still many American Gentiles who fiercely opposed allowing any Jews -even children — to enter the US from Nazi Germany.
Within America itself, Jews were routinely discriminated against at every level. Colleges and graduate schools had strict quotas on the number of Jews that they would accept. Many employers refused to hire Jews. Many Jews changed their names just so that they could get a job. And because of restrictive covenants, Jews were barred from living in certain neighborhoods. They were also barred from many hotels, clubs and resorts.
So when you say that “if for example Europe loved its Jews the way the US loves hers – then I doubt the Holocaust would have happened, or at least not in the scale that it did” you show how little you know about history — American, European and Jewish.
So when you say that “if for example Europe loved its Jews the way the US loves hers – then I doubt the Holocaust would have happened, or at least not in the scale that it did” you show how little you know about history — American, European and Jewish.
Relax, and reread. Ez was talking about Europe past-tense, and U.S. present-tense — two different places and times. Nobody here is unaware of European antisemitism’s travels abroad.
Ez’s point is valid, though, I think. The Holocaust was part of the history of European antisemitism, not some isolated, random, or inconsistent event.
Ez:
Another idea of yours that I’d like to address is this thing about anti-Semitism being “a hatred and antipathy felt right across Europe,” which, had it not existed, then the Holocaust would not have happened.
There has never been a tradition of anti-Semitism in the Netherlands as one finds in Germany, Poland and Russia. For hundreds of years, Dutch Jews lived in peace with their Gentile neighbors. There were never any pograms, they were never forced to live in ghettos and were regarded as full citizens with the same rights as everyone else. This would all change after the Nazis invaded Holland in 1940. But when Dutch Gentiles saw the the savagery that the Nazis displayed when they brutally rounded up 427 Jewish men in Amsterdam on February 22-23, 1941, they staged mass protests against the Nazis, which became known as “de Februaristaking” (the February Strike). This protest was unique in that it was the only time during the entire war that non-Jews in a Nazi-occupied country stood up and protested against the Nazis’ mistreatment of their fellow Jewish citizens.
But what was the result of the February Strike? Did the Nazis say, “Oh, look, the Dutch people are opposed to the way we treat the Jews, so lets just leave the Jews alone”? Actually, as a result of the strike, the Nazis cracked down on all protests — and cracked down on the Jews with an even more brutal force than before.
The 427 Dutch Jews that were rounded up in February 1941 were sent to Mauthausen and only one survived the war. And of a total 140,000 Dutch Jews, over 100,000 were murdered in Auschwitz and Sobibor.
So you see, despite the lack anti-Semitism in the culture and despite protests by non-Jews against Nazi mistreatment of Jews, the Netherlands lost no fewer than 75% of its Jews in the Holocaust, which is a figure higher than that of any other country in Western Europe.
Studebaker writes:
“Relax, and reread. Ez was talking about Europe past-tense, and U.S. present-tense — two different places and times. Nobody here is unaware of European antisemitism’s travels abroad.”
Well, if that’s what he meant, it’s still just as ridiculous. It makes no sense to look back at things that happened in the past and say, “Gee, if only those people had a present-day mindset, then things would have been a whole lot different.”
I mean, you might as well say, “Well, if only all those slaveholders in the South had the kind of ideas about civil rights that we have today…”
Most people are completely apathetic when faced with injustice. It isn’t a singularly Polish phenomenon. Israelis are apathetic to the injustices settlers commit on Palestinians, even though they say they think it is wrong to take their houses the allow, and they punish those who stand in the way of the bulldozers. They actually wish death on them and smear them. Americans get pissier about Dick Durbin saying someing about Abu Ghraib than they do about Abu Ghraib. The excuse is that it isn’t as bad, as what was done in WWII. When something does happen that is as bad as the holocaust there will be more excuses. Most people just don’t give a shit.
Dameocrat: I think it is quite certain that we (not the Jews only, but the world) will never let the Shoah happen again to our people. I do not agree that most people are apethetic to the Shoah, or to other tragedies, such as the devastation in South East Asia or to the genocide in the Sudan, that is creating quite a spark in the Jewish community specifically (maybe we cannot flat out stop the problem, but it is wrong to say we are apathetic to the whole situation). As a side note: the one thing I do agree with is about Abu Ghraib and our disconcern toward the whole morality of the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan in general. Everywhere (atleast in midwest America) one sees “Support Our Troops” all over the place, where what we really do is support their cause but if people knew the morality of the soldiers, much of that support would go away.
Anyway – I don’t think rampant anti-semetism is something a Jew should shrug off and say “well, worse things have happened”. I truly see the report as a good sign and take it optomistically; maybe a country like Poland can come around for the Jews.
RE The Dutch in WWII : Jews and non-Jews alike
I think you proved my point S. In European countries where there was a much lower intensity of Antisemitism in the culture, such as Scandanavia and the Netherlands, the people and ruling elites were not so willing to hand their Jews over to the occupying Nazis. In countires where Antisemitism was more deeply entrenched – SUCH AS POLAND – the destruction of Jewry was not strongly objected to, let alone was resisted.
Ultimitly, I hold a similar sentiment to Reuban after reding the article. If a country like Poland who has a horrific history can come around for the Jews, then there is hope for reconcilliation after terrible events.
But the point I was trying to make was that it didn’t matter how the local Gentile population of an occupied country felt about its Jews. It was the Nazis – not the local Gentile population – who had the ultimate authority over “The Jewish Question.” And they exercised their authority like a huge steamroller that destroyed everything in its path. The Nazis didn’t really care how the Poles or the Dutch or the Hungarians or the Italians felt about their Jews. Their goal was simple: to kill every Jew wherever they happened to find them.
The thing to keep in mind, is that very little in life — and almost nothing about the Holocaust — is ever really purely black or white. There were some Nazis who saved Jews, and there were some Jews who helped the Nazis by betraying other Jews. There were Poles who slaughtered Jews, Poles who betrayed Jews, and Poles who saved Jews. To say that the Holocaust would not have happened but for the anti-Semitism of the Gentiles of Europe — and of the Poles in particular — is a gross mistatement of the facts.
Nothing is black and white, but if we can’t make generalisations of some type, we are unable to construct ‘history’, or deduct trends and patterns.
If history was made up of nothing but generalizations, then Martin Gilbert’s book, “The Holocaust: The Jewish Tragedy,” would not be 959 pages long. Instead, it would only contain one paragraph, which would say:
“The Germans were all pure evil. The Poles were all anti-Antisemitic. The Gentiles of Europe were generally anti-Semitic. And the Jews were all victims.”
That should be the basis upon which he provides 959 pages of proof.