Believers are Just Better People
Jews come in all sorts of theological flavors, but these days I would bet that most of us, when we actually think about it, fall somewhere on the atheist/agnostic end of things. We may create theologies that work for us – transcendent forces, historical continuity or the holistic totality of all being – but few people I know believe in a God who imposes his will on history and can defy the laws of nature. I know that I pride myself on being invested in the tradition (hell, I’m spending the year in Yeshivah) without being hoodwinked by the theological superstitions. Yet, I know I am always searching for firm ground on which to rest my convictions of universal justice.
Perhaps I should be looking more closely at theological approaches, after all, as Roy Hattersley claims in the Guardian, “People of faith are just better people.”
Given all the religious fundamentalists (of all faiths, ours included) who want to impose their misogynist, homophobic, territorial maximalist, ethnocentrist world-view on the rest of us, I’m pretty shocked. But I think Hattersley makes a convincing argument that when it comes to down and dirty work of saving the world, believers may be doing most of the work.
it’s just that “people of faith” suffer from the dillusion that this world is worth investing oneself in 😀
i think that “people of faith” are in fact particularly “bad” people (in so far as anything can be “bad” in a universe in which nothing rises above being an arbitrary cloud of particles), because their charity perpetuates the ur-tragedy of people being born in the first place.
This is a rather silly statement “but these days I would bet that most of us, when we actually think about it, fall somewhere on the atheist/agnostic end of things”
First of all who do you mean by we? we the Jewish people?
I think you should check the stats the only movement in america that really growing is orthodoxy formerly the largest group was conservative both of which are theistic but on different levels of observence I hope you realize that only 1% is reconstructionist! and within that movement there has been a shift to neo-kabbalaism. Check out Borough park pico-robertson bnai brak and tell them statement that you made they will look at you crossed and next time do us all a favor and never speak for me again I believe in Hashem and im not ashamed of it
Yes, uberkvetcher, Orthodox is a growing denomination. But the unaffiliated seem to remain the largest, if not fastest growing, segment. Among American Jews at least.
But the idea that people of faith are “better people” seems counterintuitive, as if faith bestows bragging rights on the faithful. Perhaps the organizational fortitude of religious philanthropic institutions accounts more for the impression that people of faith are doing “most of the work.”
In fact, as the public sphere falls out of fashion in Bush’s “Ownership Society,” and faith based initiatives and other privatization trends gain from cuts in government programs, it will be interesting to see how all that labor will be distributed.
You may be right that far fewer people hold the solidly theistic approach of old, but I think that is a far stretch from “the atheist/agnostic end of things.”
uberkvetcher notes correctly that for a significant majority of orthodox Jews world-over, a traditional theistic approach still holds. Many others hold a mildly weaker position that holds that God can and does interact in the physical world, but not in the same direct way as in biblical times.
Hey, my relationship with my parents is far different now than when I was in kindergarden (and far different then than when I was a nursing infant). I certainly don’t have the same dependent relationship with them that I used to. Of course, I still don’t question the role that my parents have played in my life.
We have learned more as humans over the last 3000 years about our universe. Perhaps now we have paradoxically grown closer and farther from God: closer, because we understand God’s creation far better and limit God less by anthropomorphizing Him; farther, because as we have delved deeper into knowledge of the universe, we realize that God is much bigger and more mysterious than we can comprehend.
That doesn’t destroy theology, it just makes it more complex. It’s sort of like modern physics. As we have learned more, we have found things to much more complex with deeper questions. The move to quantum physics from Newtonian physics hasn’t destroyed physics, only matured it.
I’d agree with 1.5 opinions that theology is really, REALLY complicated… I’m not atheist or agnostic, but I think a lot “non-believers” are actually way more moral and (from my perspective) God-centered than so-called “religious” fundamentalists.
It’s just that in this day and age, simplistic concepts like “believing in God” have become almost irrelevant. What does “believe” mean? What is “God”? Or which “God”? I would argue that faith nowadays comes down to a sense of optimism and perseverance — the belief that things will be better, or the world can be redeemed, etc. With that definition, it makes sense that the article would claim “believers are doing most of the work.”
religious people seem today to have the most ‘faith’. they are the ones who believe in their ideologies enough that they are willing to make sacrifices for it; will work hard for it; and will die for it. A generation or two ago there were secular people who had ‘faith’ in their secular ideologies – i’m specifically thinking of socialism, but also nationalist causes, zionism, fascism etc. – enough to fight their cause, make sacrificies and maybe even be martyrs for their faith/ ideology / cause. But a survey of the contemporary scene shows that it is primarily the people of religious faith in this world who have the energy for their struggles. And this energy, this ‘living for the higher cause’ feeling, can be used for both good and bad. Some earthlings will go to great lengths and make great sacrifices in order to bring misery on others in the name of their higher cause. eg the Taliban. While others will use their energy to bring happiness eg nuns who care for lepers in india. These 2 extremes are only carried out by people who have religious faith – face it; it is true. If there was no religion in the world, there would be less cruelty; but there would also be less charity; and furthermore, the world would be less colourful.
Amazing how many posters have blithely reiterated the self-serving assumption that “most of us are atheists and agnostics” and how “evil” and “tightly wrapped” religious people are.
Zionista is especially funny when re-asserting the “counter-intuitiveness” of religiously-motivated humanitarian effort, and trying to explain it away in the favored terms of “heavy handed social pressure”. Nah, it’s not because the unity of G-d leads to a deeply felt sense of human brotherhood, or hard-won personal humility, or the nobility of the religious teachings that have been absorbed – nah, it’s just because of social pressure. Everyone knows religious people are fearful – they couldn’t *possibly* be inspired to noble or heroic acts by that Bible blather.
Those poor, benighted religious vermin!
The article itself is more honest – it shows an uber-leftist struggling with the reality that faith seems to be a more powerful motivator for humanitarian ACTION than the secular ideologies that TALK humanism, and claimed to be liberating “humanism” and “social justice” from the dusty shackles of religious faith.
On the ground, where is counts, those lecturing the rest of us about “universal humanism” aren’t doing the work. At least the author of the article has the guts to admit that – even though he betrays the same disdain for/misunderstanding of religious faith that some of you do.
In fact, the secularist’s favored gender/class/race analyses are divisive, seeing every situation as a conflict rather than an underlying unity. And their tendency to favor big-government solutions leads to demands that “somebody do something” while letting the individual off the hook of direct social obligations. We saw both of these impulses in New Orleans. This self-centered attitude reached its nadir with Sean Penn’s “rescue mission” – which was focused squarely on the narcissistic experience of being “caring” and “humanistic” and not on the actual victims.
Regarding the percentage of the Jewish people who are agnostics/atheists:
70-80 percent of Israeli Jews believe in G-d, believe that G-d hears prayers, and believe in the Divine inspiration of the Bible.
Orthodox Jews make up 1/3 of affiliated American Jews. Taken together with the more traditional wing of Conservative Jewry, those believing in the more strictly defined concept of G-d and the Divine nature of the Torah make up 1/2 of the American Jews who bother to affiliate. In addition, around half of Reform Jews do believe in G-d in some way, although they may not talk about the Torah or Israel’s selection in the same way as more traditional Jews.
Ben-David-
I’m wondering what the source is for your statistics about Israeli Jews?
With regards to your statistics of American Jews, even though you mention that you are discussing those Jews who “bother to affiliate”, you seem to be implying that most non-ifiliated American Jews simply don’t care enough or are too lazy to believe in God. What about the possibility that a large percentage of the non-affiliated (by far the largest group of Jews in the US) considered belief in God, but concluded that a) there is no reason to believe, b) they are left simply unsure
1) The demographics are nicely summarized in the book Faith or Fear. It’s my source of reference. None of the subsequent major surveys have significantly altered the picture – they have confirmed certain trends, such as the “single generation Jew” who converts to marry a Jew, but whose children opt out of Judaism.
2) Despite gushing articles posted on other threads, Jews who choose not to affiliate are basically the last, flailing end of the whiplash of assimilation that’s passed through American Jewry.
Despite many American Jews’ conflation of Judaism and secular liberal thought, Judaism is in fact a religion, not a republic.
Not everything that a Jew somewhere does is Judaism. Nor is Judaism’s content decided by a plebiscite of ethnic Jews.
Religions are organized around an unchanging core of transcendent values and standards of behavior. That is their raison d’etre. Judaism has such a core. It most definitely includes belief in G-d, and belief in the divine, binding nature of the Torah.
The majority of Jews who bother to affiliate adhere to these core beliefs.
Those who, uncoerced, choose not to affiliate may be ethnically Jewish – but are living another culture’s life. Why should I count them?
Ben-David: “Zionista is especially funny when re-asserting the ‘counter-intuitiveness of religiously-motivated humanitarian effort, and trying to explain it away in the favored terms of ‘heavy handed social pressure’. Nah, it’s not because the unity of G-d leads to a deeply felt sense of human brotherhood, or hard-won personal humility, or the nobility of the religious teachings that have been absorbed – nah, it’s just because of social pressure. Everyone knows religious people are fearful – they couldn’t *possibly* be inspired to noble or heroic acts by that Bible blather.”
Is that really what I said? Or do you just like stroking your quotes key?
(Cont’d): “The demographics are nicely summarized in the book Faith or Fear. It’s my source of reference.”
Elliot Abrams. Convicted of lying to Congress, pardoned by outgoing President Bush LXI. Fine reference.
Interesting juxtaposition of thoughts, by the way….
“In fact, the secularist’s favored gender/class/race analyses are divisive, seeing every situation as a conflict rather than an underlying unity” (Ben-David, 09/15/05 02:29am).
“Those who, uncoerced, choose not to affiliate may be ethnically Jewish – but are living another culture’s life. Why should I count them?” (Ben-David, 09/15/05 04:41am).
Saadya Gaon was living another culture’s life when he employed philosophy to clinch the Rabbinic triumph over Karaism.
But so much for the principle of unity over conflict.
Religious communities do a better job of creating actual communities, thereby encouraging public service. A secular lifestyle is defined by individuality, personal growth and self-fulfillment. At its best, this leads to being a good person, and creating original works. At its worst, it descends into narcissism, and selfishness. At their worst, religious communities become ghettos, self-imposing isolation, and mistrusting the outside world. But within those communities, there are soup kitchens, support groups, schools. By its very nature, secular life doesn’t lend itself to creating community.
Obviously both can be good and bad. But I would think that a lifestyle that encourages consideration of the world beyond one’s personal needs is going to provoke more good deeds.
And I just realized I’m just repeating Ezra. Kudos, sir!
Ben-David- assimilation is not in any way slowing down. It’s been our problem since after the Destruction of the First Temple, when 70% of the exiles decided not to return to Israel, and stay in Babylon. Religious Judaism may pick up a few, a dozen, a few hundred year in and year out, but it loses hundreds, even thousands to assimilation, intermarriage, and any of the other million ways people decide to ditch Judaism.
I think what’s apparent here isn’t whether Jews assimilate or not. Every country Jews live in, we adapt part of the culture we live in. What seems to matter more is how much we assimilate. Do we forget our core values?
Where you get the debate usually has to do with where on the continuum between religious and secular we define as “too much”. I’m much more interested in this discussion than arguing we have to affiliate to one Jewish movement or not.
Ben-David:
“Secularists” — if by that you mean leftists — didn’t create the gender, race, and class-based divisions in our societies. Generations of patriarchy, racism, and capitalism created those. Most leftists I know, religious or not, acknowledge those divisions and work to ameliorate the harm they cause, which is just as admirable as the admirable work that religious people do in the name of universal human brotherhood.
Guardian has their token conservatives like other liberal rags. You realize that if you cut government services to a minimum and in the case of NO to the non existent, ala Grover Norquist, society can’t really participate on any other level but the religious. Atheism and Agnosticism aren’t religions so they can’t organize anything but through secular society. Let’s not forget not all religious people are conservative christians, that hate homosexuals and have a problem with women.. This author just chose to emphasize them. Under faith based initiatives tax payers will being paying missionaries for this work, so we will be subsidizing their socalled selflessness.
Zionista:
Saadya Gaon was living another culture’s life when he employed philosophy to clinch the Rabbinic triumph over Karaism.
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I think you are confusing Saadya with later Spanish scholars. Saadya was the last of the Babylonian greats, whatever secular philosophy he quoted was most definitely critiqued and limited by received Jewish wisdom.
The value of received Jewish traditiona was his beef with the Karaites – who, in rejecting the Oral tradition, were basically the Conservative Jews of their day. So Saadya was drawing a line between what opinions were and were not part of “Jewish unity”.
Just like I do. So when you write:
But so much for the principle of unity over conflict.
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I think you need to find another example besides ol’ Saadya.
Of course, you are comparing apples and oranges – religious communities (Judaism) form quite obviously around a body of truths, and heresy is clearly defined.
But that doesn’t mean that Judaism’s worldview is an inequitable and divisive as the socialist/leftist worldview – which divides EVERY society and describes EVERY interaction in terms of victimizer and victim. And the divisions are often along lines that have nothing to do with personal belief, action, or ability – as opposed to Judaism, which only condemns white men if they really do oppress someone….
Charles:
assimilation is not in any way slowing down. It’s been our problem since after the Destruction of the First Temple, when 70% of the exiles decided not to return to Israel, and stay in Babylon. Religious Judaism may pick up a few, a dozen, a few hundred year in and year out, but it loses hundreds, even thousands to assimilation, intermarriage, and any of the other million ways people decide to ditch Judaism.
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1) Yet it is Torah-true Judaism that has survived for millenia, while the revised and culturally hyphenated Judaisms have not.
2) So what do you suggest? Since there will always be people who throw over Judaism’s demanding take on the truth, we should…. what? Drop our entire community to the lowest common denominator? That would insure…. what? That we all follow the same lemming-like trajectory to oblivion?
I’m always interested to hear how life has been improved by modern thinking…