John Brown:
When I first read the the Spanish text of the speech and had it translated (my roommate have both taken Spanish for quite a number of years, although he’s better at it than me), I was appalled by the Christ-killer remarks.
But, then your article said that the Liberation Theology commonly refers to the “gentile business elites” as Christ-killers.
Just double checking: is this true? Because if it is, that completely changes the way I feel about it. He’d clearly not be referring to Jews in this case.
Yoseph: Wow. That’s all I’ve got to say about your ridiculous comment. How much of the world’s wealth do we Jews control? That’s just downright offensive. Why? Considering that 1,000,000 American Jews (a statistic that comes from right here at Jewschool from last year) live below the poverty line, that Russian Jews (a considerable number) also live in poverty, it is extremely offensive to suggest that Jews control the wealth of the world. Sure, there are really wealthy Jews; no problem with asserting that. But to jump from that to Jews in general controlling a siginificant portion of the world’s wealth is outrageous.
Oprah Winfrey is a multi-billionaire. Would it not be just as ludicrous to ask knowing this how much of the world’s wealth is in the hands of African-Americans?
Or to ask how much of the world’s wealth the fact that a considerable amount of the world’s oil (and the wealth that goes along with it)

It is intereresting, and a little bit complicated. Apparently the Bolvarian movement’s thought is itself deeply rooted in Catholic antisemitic thought: as I understand it there is a historic linkage between antirevolutionaries, moneyed persons, and “Christ-killers”. I would therefore submit that Chavez’s remarks were, yes, antisemitic, but not necessarily on purpose.
It’s sort of like someone from the Deep South who says that A “jewed” B, ie cheated him on the deal. I won’t necessarily think that A is antisemitic, just that he is the product of an environment whose antisemitism is embedded in its very language. Same goes for Chavez. As to whether or not the Venezuelan Jews were partly doing damage control here, I’d find it hard to believe that there were not at least partly the case. It’s pretty standard stuff; see also places like Iran or Tunisia, where “representatives” of the remaining Jews usually try and at least partly parrot the government’s lines, because not to do would be very unastute (if that’s a word).

I’m going to be totally blunt here. It sounds to me like maybe you (like the Wisenthal center) may have internalized the term “Christ Killer” to the point where you have a hard time believing it is not interchangable with “Jew”, even when it isn’t intended in that way.
Yeah but, to take the same blunt tack you’ve taken — diagnosing my inner thoughts, as it were — it sounds to me like you are so invested in the idea that antisemitic racism must not exist among those you consider your fellow travellers, that you ignore it even when stunningly obvious.
To remind you, we are talking about Bolivarian ideology. Bolivar was, of course, a Spanish nobleman educated by Catholic priests. Bolivarianism was developed in a continuing context where nearly everyone was educated in the same system. So it is hardly surprising that, in portraying enemies of the people, the Bolivarians seized on the most familiar enemies of the people imagery available to them: money-grubbing Christ-killers who cynically manipulate the masses. As I pointed out, this is the difference between reproducing deeply antisemitic discourses, and setting out to unleash antisemitic messages. Chavez was doing the former. To ignore this is to hold one’s head below the sands of antisemitism which are the history of European thought.
The concept that someone killed Jesus is not in and of itself anti-Semitic is it ? The term ‘Judas’ is used in a similar way, to call someone a back-stabber. But even though Judas was Jewish there’s no anti-semitism in calling someone who betrays a ‘Judas’
Erm, same deal. Is it really antisemitic to say that A “jewed” B, when A ripped B off? I mean, that’s how it’s used. Now, that’s a more blatant example. But, really, Judas as not an antisemitic stereotype? Start with Wikipedia or, I dunno, the New Internationalist if that’s your bag. Judas as the heart of antisemitism isn’t exactly news. Those who’ve spent their lifes in largely-Jewish, Anglophone communities are probably not familiar with its use in everyday speech. For the rest of us, yeah, it means something.

First of all I want to let you know how appalled I am looking at the picture of El Che with a Kippah. The propagandistic messiah that has become the most commercialized image in the world didn’t leave anything but his own cult, diary, dozens if not hundreds of deaths, movies and a failed government that is still as closed minded as it was in its origin. He would be one of the last persons I would want to share a religion with.
Second of all, and I apologize if you find this “generalization” wrong. I believe you live in the US, probably in NY (from the Brooklyn Bridge I see in my screen). Which means, you live surrounded by an enormous quantity of jews and of people of all kinds of religions and races. And you probably also write from your comfortable little apartment. I don’t blame you for that, that is a great life with a lot of dignity, and I’m sure many people would love to be in your position. I know tons of people like you, and I can tell you, they know nothing about what it is to live surrounded or under extreme poverty or under a dictatorship. (That is communism, because it always ends up like that).
Your article makes me feel like I’m part of a cool leftist jewish community in Venezuela. That we all love Chavez (because he is so cool) and that we don’t agree with the US and the SWCenter (which in your words acts just exactly like the US with its foreign policy). Well I can tell you, because I am part of that community that this is not the case. I only know one jew by the name of Isaac Chocron who is a hard core Chavista, and let me tell you the community is pretty small and you basically know everyone and everything.
Just today I received a forwarded e-mail from Paulina Gamus. She is an enthusiastic member of our community and the third vice president of CAIV. She declared in this letter that the letter sent to the SWCenter was written without the consent of the CAIV’s directive, since they had voted the week before not to write it.
So, all the disagreement you might have with leaders of America or Jewish American Societies I have with my own leaders that clearly don’t represent me or the majority.
Now, and this is for your own good I present you with some facts.
1. Chavez is a clear supporter of El Chacal. He wrote basically a “love” letter to him and would want to set him free from his life imprisonment in France. El Chacal is a terrorist and was trained with the PLO.
2. Chavez is Ahmadinejad’s buddy. That same person that said Israel should be erased from the World map and who has declared a lot of nonsense regarding the holocaust.
3. In 2004 the government’s police broke into the jewish sports club/school just at the time when all the kids from pre-school to junior high were coming in (7am). They said that there were illegal bombs and arms. Nothing was found and NEVER one word of apology was sent out from the government to the community. You have to understand that if you are 5 years old and find your school packed of an anti bomb squad could be really terrifying.
So, I ask you that if you are going to write about such issues to do some more research and to not put your point of view on a community’s mouth.
Thanks, Orinoco

On the contrary – I don’t think I took a real position myself. Then you’d be wrong. You said: “It sounds to me like maybe you (like the Wisenthal center) may have internalized the term “Christ Killer” to the point where you have a hard time believing it is not interchangable with “Jew”, even when it isn’t intended in that way”. That’s taking a position — one that to see remarks about money-grubbing Christ-killeres manipulating the country’s wealth, as antisemitic ones, are an internalized delusion.
I took the opinion of The Forward and the AJCommittee and the American Jewish Congress’ opinions as being probably honest becuase I can’t think of why they would cover for an anti-semitic statement. No. The Forward took no position; it was reporting. The two AJCs? I have no idea what precisely they said, nor why they said it. Debates usually deal in ideas, not roll calls.
So far, nobody has offered even one possible rationale for why they would do such a thing. Read more closely, then. The rationale is stated above: don’t make trouble for the local Jews. It’s the standard modus operandi in countries which are not New York. Welcome to the rest of the world.
Incidentally, if you are truly interested in this — and not simply trying to pooh-pooh the idea of actually-existing antisemitism (see #8, above) — then you should probably read what Libération has to say about it. Apparently Chavez’s advisor through the 1990s, Norberto Ceresole, was big in revisionist circles.
Like you, Chavez’s advisor Ceresole saw nothing antisemitic in all this: “I am of course neither an antisemite nor a Nazi … just part of a revisionism that wants to demonstrate that an important part of the narrative of deportation and death of Jews in the Nazi system was arranged in the form of a myth.” (Sorry, hasty translation.) Hell, maybe Chavez can discuss it with our friend Mr. Ahmadinejad when he comes and visits. Sounds like they have lots to discuss.

DK, maybe you should learn how to spell Venezuelan before you even think about commenting on such a situation. There is a whole intricated world outside your Heeb parties.

First of all, I would like to apologize if I sounded or sound offensive at all. But, it will be hard for most people here to understand what Venezuelans have been going through the last 7 years of declining democracy.
Now, I would like to ask you a question, how does an article like such published by the Forward can help our community?
As I tried explaining in another post, it is incredibly irritating to see people like this article’s writer talking with such an authority and put HIS thoughts in the mouth of a whole community and in the “heads” of the rest of the world. Specially in such a delicate situation.
As you can probably read from another post of mine, the SWCenter has created a lot of conflict in the community. Which, I personally don’t mind, because you can basically see who is who, meaning, those who to my view are courageous and will not support a government like such and those who are worried about their personal “affairs” with the government.
An example of how the government can behave against minorities could be what happen to an evangelist group. Even though I’m not completely fond of them, I think, that every cult as long as they don’t interfere with peace and a few basic principles of human rights should be allowed to happen and be organized. Well, one of their branches called Nuevas Tribus was kicked out of Venezuela by President Chavez because of an arguement they had. I don’t remember the details but it was pretty ridiculous. This is one particular group, it could be us too. I’m not paranoid about this happening to us, because I believe in the greatness of the Venezuelan society, but this was a start and there is always a possibility for a follow up.
On the other hand, a person like Chavez who clearly would love to have a sort of Cuba in Venezuela, will never believe in religion or the existence of a greater being than him, that is his nature, and has been the nature of countries falling into dictatorships. Organized groups also represents power taken from his own hands.(which he adores)
We, as the rest of the Venezuelan society, have been relying on the fact that maybe the international community will realize the build up of a dictatorship hiding behind the veils of a crooked democracy, but this, as you can see, is not the case. As you can also see I can go on and on and on, and this to me, ends up being a discussion not of right against left wingers or vice versa, this is about oppression and our own existence as a Venezuelan Jewish Community.
I don’t follow closely the SWCenter, but I can tell you, as any jewish organization they have substantial reasons to be worried.

I understand your point. I personally don’t follow everything that the SW Center does and how it might fall into overreacting with many issues that should be treated differently. I do still think what I told you before, which is to my view irresponsible journalism, but doesn’t that always happen? journalism is so often taken so seriously you stop even thinking that behind every article there is a mind with its own point of view that wants to speak out with its authorative voice.
In regards to those that you called elements of the community I can tell you something. They could be two things: Pissed because they don’t want trouble with the government since they are scared of the political repercusions or pissed because they don’t want trouble with the government because they are scared of their economical actions (maybe loosing some juicy deals with them). I have always been politically and morally inclined and I think that this government has made all of us even more like this because we don’t want to loose our country. And I believe most of the community feels that way, because we definitely love Venezuela. So you can see, how intricate this is. It is such a touching subject that should be treated with much more delicacy and acccuracy, much more than what this author used.