This is summertime Monk. Everybody is on a vacation or outside enjoying the sun. Israel basically has carte blance. I suggest they use it.

I AM a former-muslim. One that has seen the truth of Torah because through the magic of the internet I got to see the Jewish perspective. It’s amazing how much “borrowing” has been going on in the qur’an from rabbinical sources. Once you see that it’s hard to go back.

xisntox, is that quote for real? can you post the link? thanks

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3273710,00.html

makes sense, probably border policemen. meanwhile, the Lebanese Druze are too busy shooting each other to notice what’s been going on: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5144312.stm

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885980653&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Jul. 12, 2006 17:40
Yesha rabbis call for ‘extermination of the enemy’
By JPOST.COM STAFF
The Yesha Rabbinical Council blamed the attack on the north on Wednesday morning on a “weakening of our grip on the land of Israel.”
The rabbis saw the attack as a “direct continuation of relinquishing [territory] and weakness.”
The Council called on the IDF to ignore Christian morals and “exterminate the enemy in the north and the south.” They advised that an emergency government be established to “fight the true enemy as is appropriate, and to rescind orders to destroy and evict Jews.”

Monk…we get enough moral relativism from The Guardian. The rabbis are responding to a direct provocation, an attack on Israel proper.
The raison d’etre may be whacky, but their timing is sound. I see a difference between their claims and say, Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad. You don’t?

Ok.
Formermuslim? I’ve been asked to play nice, so I’ll politely say ‘get the fuck outta here.”
I am Zionist, I believe in the sanctity of Israel as a state for jews – but I do not celebrate war or endorse it is as a primary vehicle for international relations.
Does that mean sometimes a motherfucker needs to be smacked in the mouth?
Absolutely. And that’s what’s happening now – in Lebanon and Gaza.
Am I going to do a little happy dance over it?
Hell the fuck NO. And anyone who DOES celebrate that kind of destruction and death shouldn’t be balling themselves Jews. Actions of this kind don’t become works of glee – they must be taken solemnly and with the basic understanding of human costs. To weigh the moral value of life is the duty of every Jew – especially in the face of crisis. Otherwise, we might as well take the morally absolute perspective of the Christians and Muslims, who can justify all their actions through faith alone. If we suffer ethically for our defense, then it is necessary suffering. That is the fate of Israel: to wrestle with G_d and the laws given.
And the Yesha’s raison d’etre IS the basis of my statement. Bolstering a politically tense situation with religious vitriol towards the government’s land policies is hardly appropriate – no matter the timing. Especially when they’ve yet to offer a viable alternative.

Shtriemel.
From a nationalist viewpoint, I appreciate your point of view. No one should be apologist for seeing their landsmen safe.
From a religious and humanist perspective, your stance makes me a little sick.

The point is, we don’t even celebrate the death of our enemies. Necessary? Unfortunately, yes. But it is NOT something to celebrate or be happy or take satisfaction in.

Shtriemel.
Clearly, you’re right.
Jews aren’t supposed to consider the morality of our actions.
Jews aren’t intended to consider the immediate, real world consequences of our decisions.
And Jews are certainly not consider mercy and lovingkindness as traits to aspire to.
We’re a warrior people. Let’s jettison the academia and get on with bombing the happy horseshit out of anyone who flaunts us. Shit, break out the white label vodka – I may just start dancing?
Shtriemel?
No disrespect?
But I don’t know any sect of our faith that considers death as being without ethical implications. Judaism exists by design – it is not something we make up as we go along. Our ethical mechanisms are designed specifically for us to function in the real world with all its ugliness, and balance the high-minded righteousness of Judaism with mundane pragmatism . And yes, I believe that if it is in Israel’s best interest to survive, then they should bomb the holy hellfire out of anything that would threaten. That’s the animal fear of a human nationalist at work. But the Jew says we do not kill without the understanding that it affects us as much as the dead, and that there are consequences to it.
The Dialogue is the essence of Judaism.
So we’re going to either agree to disagree, or…

Shtriemel.
Fair enough.

“I am Zionist, I believe in the sanctity of Israel as a state for jews – but I do not celebrate war or endorse it is as a primary vehicle for international relations. ”
Wow Monk, you’re so special and unique. One of those few people who doesn’t like war.
Give me a break monk. You say you don’t like war but refuse to do that which would end it. Namely, win! And for what reason? I”l tell you what the reason is, I’ve been on enough of these hipster judaism websites to know the answer by now. You are afraid that if you piss of the “world” too much they (america europe whoever) won’t support you anymore or in the case of europe won’t look the other way occasionaly.
That is the ONLY reason Israel is holding back. Your humanist values stop you from celebrating war you say? Your humanist values are the reason this war is still going on. Killing palestinians every day, telling yourself that they’re just terrorsts so it’s okay morally. Well they wouldn’t be terrorists and they wouldn’t be there if you had thrown them out to Jordan or syria or whatever country the arabs have in their collection.
But you won’t throw them out Monk like your G-d told you in the Torah. And what would happen when you don’t throw them out? “They will become thorns in your side”. This is your holy scripture talking Monk. You have no-one to blame but yourself. The UN condemns you, europe sells you out? Well guess what Monk. You’re a nation that walks alone, sound familiar? You appearently see that as a curse.
It’s too bad the orthodox are a minority in the Jewish world. They are the only who take their scripture seriously and as a result are the only ones capable of seeing what’s going on in the world: That G-d is pulling the ropes and Hizbullah and Hamas are the puppets.

Monk and Shtriemel:
You both seem to be assuming that only one response is appropriate upon the occurrence of a given event. Why? Aren’t our Shabbats and holidays complex mixtures of different emotions and moods? Shabbat is the time for both serious contemplation AND some material indulgence (in the prescribed forms, of course). Holidays are joyful but also serious commemorations of events. Purim is a blow-out but contains undercurrents of fear. Yom Kippur is solemn and even terrifying, yet is also supposed to be a day of joy. Why shouldn’t the same apply when attacking enemies? On these occasions I feel a some sadness (a) because of any innocents that might have been harmed, though I may fully condone or demand the attack and (b) in the case of the harmed guilty, because though my side has done nothing wrong and in fact is required to defend itself, the necessity of such attacks is a reminder that we live in a broken world. And at the same time, I celebrate the death of the guilty, because the world is better off without them, because they will never commit their crimes again, because justice has been served, and because it’s too rare that the good people are publicly seen to have beaten the bad ones.
So when Saddam and bin Laden earn their final reward, I’ll be breaking out a bottle of fine whiskey (both bottles already purchased). I’ll have a drink to commemorate their victims and to reflect quietly on the inherent sadness in the world. Then I’ll pour another drink, cheer loudly, wish them a happy eternity in hell, smile broadly and bottoms up! And both of you, literally or figuratively, should be joining me in this.
And Monk-
“And anyone who DOES celebrate that kind of destruction and death shouldn’t be balling themselves Jews. ” –
you GOTTA fix that typo. 🙂

Yup, I’m afraid the comments here stand as an unambiguous rebuke to that part of the post which states, “This is bad.” It’s time to acknowledge the simple truth, that THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT THE ISRAELI RIGHT WANTS. This state of war is not only the sole possible outcome of a policy of extreme Rightwing nationalism, but it is exactly the outcome they’ve been hoping for. Indeed, the only criticism at all is directed at the fact that there is any hesitation or reluctance whatever toward a policy of killing civilians on a mass scale. Here’s a quick selection of comments from a recent post on the kidnapping that provoked the incursion into Gaza:
not so many words needed : kill them all, turn off the water, turn off the power, and start shooting.
carpet bomb Khan Yunis. Turn it into a smoking crater. Tell them they have 24 hours to completely give up any and all belief in “Armed Struggle” or we’ll do the same thing to the next town, chosen at random.
Idea: lets see if the “push them into the ocean” thing works, we will do it in the name of helping Hammas and Iran. I suppose Ashkelon is a good port of entry. We can have gunboats out there directing them to swim towards egypt.
Of course, the Right is likely to be a good deal less enthusiastic about the fallout that inevitably will result from such a policy, including worldwide political condemnation, diplomatic and cultural isolation, economic boycott, financial divestment, impoverishment, and designation as a pariah state. But not to worry, the Right will simply find a way – as they always do – to blame someone else, or to simply stick their heads in the sand and respond with some non sequitur.

Ay. Smitty. Your post reads like conspiracy theory 101.
Need I remind you of the death toll of First Lebanon?
Need I remind you these momzers are better armed 20 years later?
That shy of nuking everyone, there is no real tactical victory here?
And that using a nuke in a crowded area like the Middle East would kill most of Israel?
*smh*
It’s a weak argument.

Monk and Shtreimel – Yes, that’s right, Jews do what is necessary to deter and vanquish their enemies – but we don’t glory in killing or seek it out.
Now – could someone please go back to the “Statement by Yesha Rabbis” that sparked this discussion, and tell me exactly WHERE those Rabbis “gloried” in death?
They are certainly not the only people drawing the obvious connections between Barak’s tail-between-legs withdrawal from Lebanon, and the subsequent boldness of Hamas and Hizbullah in their actions against us.
It’s now a common observation that our overtures for peace were seen as weakness, and that the Intifadas were inspired by Hizbullah’s successful war of attrition against Israel in Lebanon.
And I know this may come as a shock – but Israel has certainly not invented the notion that a country can annex territories from which it is repreatedly attacked, dispossessing enemy populations in the process. This is actually Standard Operating Procedure in most conflicts that descent to armed conflict (and how the India-Pakistan border was established, to cite one relevant example).
So – while “everybody knows” that those Rabbis are uncool, square, not hip – the past 2 weeks have proven a lot of square, uncool, unhip right-wing opinion correct.

That is the fundamental problem; no war in which two opposing ideals clash has ever ended until there was a clearcut winner and loser. And fundamentally that is at the root of why there are still Arab-Israeli conflicts, namely Israel has yet to be accepted as part of the permanent map in the region versus Israel’s desire to actually be on that map. And sure there are individual states who have recognized that right (Egypt, Jordan), but until a Palestinian leadership comes to power that recognizes the hard and true fact that Israel will continue to exist no matter what they want/do/say, those two fundamental opposing views will continue to be in conflict.

J,
You’ve misinterpreted my response, perhaps as a result of some vagueness on my part. By “whatever you want,” I absolutely was not evading making a commitment to a position. What I simply meant is that my criticism of the Right – regarding killing civilians and rejection of peace – was not based on the harsh and punitive nature of the Israeli response to these specific acts of aggression, and that I am entirely willing to concede the legitimacy of such punitive measures in this circumstance, even if they do result in the widespread loss of civilian life. I was being quite literal, i.e., I acknowledge the legitimacy of any position that the military authorities state is necessary as a tactical response to this specific threat.
My objection pertains to strategy, not tactics.
You are also correct that I didn’t outline my own strategic response to this impasse. It’s not because I don’t have one, but because I was waiting first to see if EV or anybody else could tell me how the Right is prepared to deal with the state of affairs I’ve previously described. I do, indeed, have a very specific strategy that I believe constitutes the single possible position that assures Israel’s continued survival, one that I am willing to defend in every particular. The reason I didn’t identify that position in my last comment is that I know it will immediately become the object of scorn and derision, thus permitting the Right to once again avoid taking an affirmative stance of any kind. I will gladly outline and defend my own proposed strategy, but I would like to see first if there is anyone who supports either – as EV puts it – the far Right (mass civilian killings) or the moderate Right (annexation and mass expulsion) who can describe how these proposals will actually work on the ground.
As to my arrogance, incoherence, and stereotyping of the Right, I’ll address those matters separately.

You’ve still got it all wrong, Smith. Do you really think that you’re so much more wise fand worldly or simplifying recent events to part of some grand scheme by a group of old men in high government posts with their own destructive agenda? Just pure conspiracy. Same thing with your characterization of the “moderate right.” There are people on the extreme right who advocate mass expulsion of the Palestinians or even extermination, in some cases. But those positions aren’t tolerated. There are right wing politicians who fall within a normal accepted political spectrum, but their views are a bit more grounded than you say. Just about all the time, suggestions that the Israeli right (e.g. Likud) is really plotting behind the scenes to get rid of the Palestinians amount to mere speculation. I know, don’t believe every official statement you hear. But don’t believe baseless speculative comments either.
While your cute little joke about the learning annex may have made you look slightly intelligent, that must have definitely been a surprise to those who had read your ludicrous comments that triggered my response.

David Smith appears to be sane–the rest of you people strike me as being as fanatical and terrorist as those you hold to be your enemies.
Is this the point to which the fanatical religious docterine of Zionism has taken you?
With this thinking it won’t just be Iran that is turned into a nuclear wasteland–but Isreal too.
You learned nothing from the genocide perpetrated by Hitler and the fanatical Aryans–except to monkey their behavior. Your righteous anscestors are turning in their graves.
Shame on you.

Smith, I’m not offended by anything you said. You can say that the Jews were behind the WTC plot for all I care. You’re kind of jumping the gun and assuming that I am just like all those other Jews who label those with whom they disagree as Nazis or anti-Semites or whatever. I don’t label; I dismiss. I just felt that your comments were a bit too speculative and they mischaracterized the right by exaggerating its rhetoric. It just seems too much like anti-right paranoia that I’ve seen before.
Now excuse me as I have to go gas some Palestinians as we Jews come closer to realizing the vision of an Arab-rein Middle East. See, Sydney? The Nazis sure did teach us something! Fucking idiot.