Cognitive Dissonance, Part II
Dear Phoebe,
To accuse me of “the now-classic mistake of not knowing the difference between criticizing Israeli policy and denying Israel’s right to exist” when you are the one who has just erred in this manner further confirms my suspicion that we have reached the final hour, whereas as prophesied, reality has been turned upon its head.
Perhaps Nero just can’t hear over the sound of his own fiddle.
There seems to be a psychiatric disorder prevalent within the Jewish community, in which individuals hear anything that expresses displeasure with the triumphalistic behavior of the “mainstream” pro-Israel community as a call for the destruction of the state of Israel and for the success of terrorists in murdering Jewish people.
Feel free to disagree with my belief that it’s distasteful to have a parade while Israel is collapsing. But dare not for a moment twist my concerns for the fate of Israel into a desire for either the state’s non-existence nor into a call for our destruction as a people.
Love,
Mobius
[Update] Just one more thought… Kind of an open letter to the American Jewish leadership, spurred on by Phoebe’s posting:
My whole life I’ve been told by Jewish educators and Jewish leaders to love Israel, to love the Jewish people; to support and defend Jews everywhere; to make their plight my own. I’ve been told about the remarkable nature of Israel, The Only Democracy in the Middle East™, and the challenges it faces, both internal and external. I’ve been told about the depth and truth of Torah; about the necessity of a commitment to yiddishkeit and avodas hashem. “Jewish values” they called them. “This is what makes us Jewish,” they’d say; “That which substantiates our identity as Jewish people: the authority of our moral voice.”
If I knew that you never actually wanted me to believe in any of this stuff; that you just wanted me to passively identify with these myths without actually ever acting on them; that I should have low expectations of both Jews and Israel and that I shouldn’t measure us even by our own tradition’s standards…
I dunno, maybe then I’d be another unaffiliated Jew you’d be spending millions of dollars trying to reach out to. There’d be no Jewschool, no Radical Torah, no Orthodox Anarchist, no ShulShopper, no Jew It Yourself; hell, maybe even no JVoices, JSpot or even Jewlicious for that matter. I’d have never taken a job at the JCC in Manhattan. I’d have never gone to work for JDub. I’d have never gotten involved with any of the Jewish projects with which I’ve engaged. Frankly, I wouldn’t have given a shit about anything Jewish — because, what then, is being Jewishly involved worth?
I can only wonder, if you American Jewish leaders don’t believe in any of this stuff yourself… If you don’t really believe in what the Torah has to say about the way we conduct ourselves in the world, or more specifically, how we conduct ourselves in the land of Israel… If you don’t believe that it’s a reasonable expectation for Jews to live up to the goals our revered forbears set for us… Then why are you so insistent on stuffing these things down our throats? Why do you hemorrhage hundreds of millions of dollars annually to convince young people like me of something you really couldn’t give two shits about when push comes to shove?
Are you really that disingenuous? Are you that full of shit? Or are you just as hysterical as you accuse folks like me of being; operating from a place of fear and irrationality; and motivated by things you yourselves don’t even understand?
I have to wonder, really… If you don’t want me to believe in Torah, why teach it to me? If you don’t want me to insist upon Israel’s morality, why insist that Israel is a moral beacon? If you want me to think like, say, Phoebe, who equates disappointment in the Jewish people with a desire for their extermination, why blow all that smoke about am/eretz/medinat yisrael up my ass?
Are you trying to make me crazy? Or are you fumbling in the dark? The latter is at least forgivable, if only you’d fess up to it.
Well said, man. Honestly some of the writers at Jewlicious are frighteningly stuck-up and pathetic, I pinged one post and criticized it (mildly even) and got an angry post back claiming that I am stupid and vicious and anti-Zionist and I wanna blow up the whole world… and all that for a single criticism! Keep up the good fight and know that you’re not the only one. You got a great thing going on at this place.
The irony is that while such blogs are claiming to win people to Israel’s side, I am actually more pro-Israel due to this blog. Way more respectful and understanding of Israel than I could’ve ever imagined. And blogs like Jewlicious, LGF, and tons of other extremist pro-Israel stuff are actually losing credibility and support from the people they should be targeting… us, the Arab-Muslims. They are creating enemies through these attacks even when we are trying to reach out. They lock us away from their worlds, after their attacks I never visited their blog and don’t plan on to ever again.
Whatever, this place is cool. I’m a fan and a frequent reader. Keep it up.
I was at the end of the parade this past weekend. It was nice to see all of the frummers walking around with their kids and groups of pissed off secular Israelis who pretended to be better than everyone else. It was like a piece of Israel right there on Fifth Ave. But that was it…nothing catostrophic. Israel is in trouble Mobius, no question. But falling apart? Phoebe you also need to see that Mobius has a true and real concern to air, but you were also little bit right.
But please folks, this parade is SO not important. It made groups of Yeshivah bochers feel special as they walked for a few miles with like minded people who were happy to see them. The parade is not for the state of Israel, or supporting Israel, it is to do something. Don’t go too far into this and make it a political debate on who is a more intellectual Jew.
For one day, put aside the rhetoric and see that a parade is just a parade. Israel or Palestine isn’t falling over because a few hundred-thousand Zionist marched 25 blocks in Manhattan.
Israel or Palestine isn’t falling over because a few hundred-thousand Zionist marched 25 blocks in Manhattan.
and fully supporting that, I think the whole damn thing should be canceled. We don’t have “US Day parades” here, so you can stay home and watch tv on “Israel day” too. Israel or Palestine will not suffer any consequence because a few idiots marched 25 blocks in Manhattan.
I am not sure where you are going Amit, but my point is that this parade is just that; nothing of consequence. I don’t understand all the hate. It is strange to me.
Bravo, Mobius. It’s standing ovation time, again.
I’m muslim and not jewish in background, but I honor those things you care about in Israel, as I was raised within a Christian community that admired Israel for being the bearers of the Torah, the commitment to defending Jews, and for it’s ‘Light unto the Nations’ creed. I read the literature, was optimistic, and it wasn’t until I read Chomsky and Palestinian narratives that I started to become uncomfortable with that story.
I still want Israel to exist, a strong and integral Israel, with a democracy, secular in it’s ability to honor Orthodox Judaism without losing the ability to host Reformed Jews, muslims, and Christians, and even atheists.
I hope that that Israel would truly be a ‘Light unto the Nations’ and that the tyrannies and dictatorships which have exploited the Palestinian cause would have a reason to be ashamed at the nobility which Israel displayed.
Let me know when you’re marching for that ‘Other Israel,’ and I’d be happy to join you, insha Allah.
POLJ – if the parade is just a parade, then it should be all the easier not to have it at all.
Since when do I speak not only for all of Jewlicious, but for the whole US Jewish establishment? Almost all my posts on Jewlicious are criticizing various aspects of that particular party line, and I get thoroughly bashed for it in the comments. I am laughably far from being an “American Jewish leader.” I agree with one particular aspect of the party line, which is that Israel should exist, and should not be condemned for failing to live up to superhuman expectations. I don’t blame you for not knowing about what I generally write about and how far it is from what all these “Jewish leaders” have told you your whole life, but in this context, it’s worth pointing out.
Finally, there’s a difference between criticizing Israel as a country–imperfect and worth criticizing by definition–and criticizing it as a project or an idea. The problem with doing the latter is that it already is a country, and if some more thoughtful Diaspora Jews think things over and decide, oops, it was a bad idea, a failed project, then what do you suggest should come of the Israelis? Shall they go home? Where to?
Since when do I speak not only for all of Jewlicious, but for the whole US Jewish establishment?
i never said you did. rather, i find your views reflective of the behavior of the greater american jewish community and saw your remarks as a segue to address that subject.
I am laughably far from being an “American Jewish leader.â€
again, that wasn’t directed at you, but rather those at the helm of the american jewish community who share your views.
I don’t blame you for not knowing about what I generally write about and how far it is from what all these “Jewish leaders†have told you your whole life, but in this context, it’s worth pointing out.
i’ve read your posts. i know what you’re about: france.
Finally, there’s a difference between criticizing Israel as a country–imperfect and worth criticizing by definition–and criticizing it as a project or an idea.
show me where i called for the destruction of the state of israel. saying that i find a parade in celebration of israel distasteful at this juncture is not the same as saying the state of israel should never have been founded.
i said no such thing. in fact, in all of my exploration of this issue through my many years of blogging, i never EVER once called for an end to the state of israel. i questioned whether the founding of israel was the best idea for us. i questioned whether or not it’s resolved any of the issues it promised to. but i never once said that we should pack up and leave. never ever once.
i do subscribe to anti-zionist religious beliefs. ie., i believe that to be worthy of this land, we must live up to certain halakhic expectations — a notion which zionism outright rejects. but my political beliefs lean more towards left-wing zionist/post-zionist. not anti-zionist. i believe jews have every right to sovereignty in the land of israel. i have no recollection of ever saying anything otherwise, and if ever i did, i most certainly do not stand by those views today.
I was referring more to my views on intermarriage and on the singles obsession of much of American Judaism than to my interest in France–the latter doesn’t necessarily offend party-line American Jews, although it also does, from time to time…
phoebe, really–as far as i’m concerned, i’m sure you’re an incredibly sweet and wonderful person, and that you’re genuinely frustrated with the amount of flack israel catches, particularly from jews themselves. i get that, and i don’t think you’re wrong for being upset about it.
but i’m really upset too. after living in jerusalem for three years i’m packing up and heading home because i can’t bear to be here and watch what goes on in this place anymore. the american jewish community is completely oblivious to what’s going on here, and no one’s stepping up to rectify matters. i’m at a breaking point. i’m emotionally exhausted.
but rather than listening to what i’m trying to say, i’m being cast as a hater of jews and israel. it’s not fair. i cry for this place, and yet am made to feel like a traitor to my own people. it’s not ok.
so again, i understand why you feel the way you do about the excessive expectations you feel i have. but it’s not fair to turn that into anything other than an outpouring of my deep concern for the fate of israel, as both a people and a state.
Dear Mobius,
Love the enthusiasm. We think all of the projects you’ve done with the internet are neat – or at least that’s what our children tell us. It seems that you are upset about certain things going on Israel, but we don’t understand why you would want to rain on our Israel parade. Everybody else from the NFTY kids to the day-schoolers had a wonderful time. One of our rabbis thinks you’ve been studying too much Jeremiah. Still, you seem like a nice Jewish boy. And Phoebe seems like a nice Jewish girl. You should get together and make Jewish babies.
Love,
The American Jewish Leadership.
Mobius,
This has nothing to do with me being sweet or not. My point, the one you commented below but made no reference to, was that my views sometimes overlap with this party line, but more often than not don’t. I have no problem with you being sad for or critical of Israel. I’m both of these things too. I simply thought (and think) your post about the parade was way off. It was expecting an amount of nuance and reflection that is not what parades are about. This is why I don’t go in for things like parades, but if you’re going to condemn one, you have to condemn them all. And for better or worse, people like parading.
We don’t have “US Day parades†here, so you can stay home and watch tv on “Israel day†too.
Amit you always struck me as just another embittered Israeli resentful of American Jews.
but this comment is like another level of ridiculousness. do you not see a difference between Jews (no matter where they are) parading for Israel and Israelis parading for America? please say that you do.
of course I do – I just happen to think the parade is silly and pointless.
and if some more thoughtful Diaspora Jews think things over and decide, oops, it was a bad idea, a failed project, then what do you suggest should come of the Israelis? Shall they go home? Where to?
See, now that’s where you have no idea what you’re talking about. Post-Zionism (not that I ever said I believed in it) has this funny notion called citizenship and has this thing about people belonging where they call home. I’m not here on a project. if I was, I’d probably leave the first chance I got. I’m here because I was born here and its my home. People who make aliya would never get it, which is why they think I’m (the proverbial one) an evil person. But I’m (we’re? they’re?) not – I’m just a person trying to live a normal life where I was born.
So that’s why your thought of me as an emissary or a proxy is irritating. Because I’m not here for you, I’m just here. and if and when the Jewish state won’t be Jewish anymore, I’ll still be here. And with some luck, I might even have a job.
The whole Jewish thing is, well, a religion – and I agree with mobius that any real Jew would tell you there’s nothing in our religion condoning even a tenth of the policies of the Jews’ state, from the occupation to welfare to sex laws – and Judaism has no idea or claim on running a modern nation-state, nor should it. So how about you guys do a “Jewish parade” where you can sing tehillim or something, and I can go to work to pay my secular taxes.
(and I am not embittered, I’m actually quite a happy person. really)
phoebe–you want me to acknowledge your disagreement with the american jewish leadership on other issues? fine: i’m sorry i cast you as a parrot for establishment positions. now you have your street cred back.
that’s still hardly as insulting or destructive as implying that i want people to spend yom haatzmaut fleeing israel or engaging in terrorist acts. you have yet to retract or apologize for your despicable remark, in which you projected onto me a grotesque caricature of what you only imagine i represent.
as per the equal application of “parade standards”: god didn’t give george washington the torah. he gave it to us. let them have their parades. we are not them. we have a different role to fulfill. to abandon belief in this core tenet is to abandon the sole value of our tradition’s perseverance. what value is there in our freedom if we abandon who we are in order to obtain it?
“god didn’t give george washington the torah.”
Fortunately for Washington though, G-d did give him good grow tips.
You know, I spent a few years living in your U.S.A., Amit.
No “U.S. Day” parades? Really? ‘Cause I was quite struck with all the hoopla around July Fourth, Thanksgiving, Memorial Day… I think I remember a few fireworks and maybe a parade or two, somewhere in there.
Incidentally, Amit, when you state that “the whole Jewish thing is, well, a religion” — you should know that you are, well, wrong.
It’s sort of interesting how most anti-/post-Zionism advocates require the negation of the Jewish people and of the Jewish diaspora to sustain their position.
(What? A Jewish diaspora! That’s silly! Only fellow Germans, Frenchmen, Russians, Tunisians, and a Libyan or two of the Mosaic faith. Started believing in a common “religion” a few hundred years back. No shared history at all. A Jewish “people”? Sheer Zionistic propaganda.)
As to your pretensions of being put upon to act as a proxy, or emissary, or whatever … honestly, get over yourself. Not that the martyr complex isn’t appealing, Lord knows, but, well, good news. Do your thing, and don’t worry too much about what those of us in the diaspora expect of you, ’cause it ain’t much — I think you’re getting mixed up with ethnic Armenians vis-a-vis Armenia, or ethnic Greeks vis-a-vis Greece, etc. who, trust me, are much, much more “patriotic” regarding their homeland than Jews will ever be.
I’m not retracting or apologizing for anything. My question was whether such behavior would be preferable to a pro-Israel parade. You don’t think it would be? Fine.
well, i’m going to hold firm to my belief that you owe me a public apology for even suggesting that i would find such behavior acceptable, let alone preferable. it is sinat chinam, plain and simple.
Let’s be clear on what we actually wrote. You suggested that it’s wrong to celebrate that Israel exists–not policies, existence– which suggests at the very least ambivalence about its existence. I’ll take your word that its violent destruction was not your intention, fine, but I never said it was. You did, however, suggest an end to vocal and cheery support for the state from outside, which leaves open what possibilities, exactly? That is what I was asking, and I’ll ask it again. Chastising people for not having a charmingly nuanced debate at a parade–or calling it off so that a bunch of 10-year-olds from Jewish day schools can debate policy?– was–and remains–ridiculous.
actually no–my original post from which you derived all of these assumptions, inferred only my displeasure with jews parading through the streets while israel is facing internal collapse, STAM. that’s ALL it said. you took it from there and imbued it with all this other meaning. why don’t you go back and read what i actually wrote?
bursting pipes, straight up. it’s not wonder you were asked to write for jewlicious.
I think you’re getting mixed up with ethnic Armenians vis-a-vis Armenia, or ethnic Greeks vis-a-vis Greece, etc. who, trust me, are much, much more “patriotic†regarding their homeland than Jews will ever be.
While ethnic Armenians and Greeks are from Armenia and Greece, Jews are not from Israel. Israelis are very patriotic regarding their own homeland, but its hard to call a place you’ve never been a “homeland”.
And I reiterate: be Jewish. be a Yid. do Jewish things, and be proud of them. Stop latching onto other people’s nationalism and militarism to make yourselves feel good.
If you juxtapose two things in a post, people are allowed to interpret them, and you may agree or disagree with the interpretation. Sorry.
Amit man just stop.
you seem awfully resentful of diaspora Jews’ expectations of you as an Israeli. but you yourself have pretty presumptuous expectations of them: here you are telling diaspora Jews how to be Jews, demanding that their communal Jewish life be Israel-free and restricted to tehillim.
stop telling diaspora Jews how to be Jews. Israel is central to the identities of millions of these people. deal with it.
I can understand your opposition to diaspora Jews’ meddling in internal Israeli affairs (e.g. AIPAC, etc.) or something. but a celebratory parade?
why does it irk you so much that non-Israelis admire your country? is it because they don’t “really understand how messed up your country is on the inside because they don’t really live here blah blah blah” or something? fine; but that’s their problem isn’t it?
I don’t see how a parade can anger you so much. do you hate fun or something?
why does it irk you so much that non-Israelis admire your country?
Because they seem to think that it’s theirs, and that they can make demands about it, and that by sending us money they have a say in our affairs. Stay out of our hair.
don’t take the money then homes
If you juxtapose two things in a post, people are allowed to interpret them, and you may agree or disagree with the interpretation. Sorry.
wow, you’re full of it. how sad.
EVERY group of people get a parade in NYC, and many of them salute other countries. Who cares? Why not appreciate the beauty of Jews of all stripe coming together in solidarity to support Israel, whatever their vision and ideal for Israel might be? You sound like an irrational brute when you chastise children for walking around with cardboard cut outs of doves, while carrying Israeli flags. Maybe you should attend one of these Salute to Israel parades so you can realize how foolish you sound.
Good grief Dan! How does “you’re full of it” correspond to “I may attack a certain point of view which I consider false, but I will never attack a person who preaches it.” Phoebe was asked to write for Jewlicious because I have always been a fan of her particular angle and her great writing. I don’t always agree with her, but I respect her integrity and her intellectual rigor. All she is doing is calling you out on what you’ve written and really, you haven’t addressed her points effectively at all. Now take a step back, take a deep breath, try to relax and not take everything so personally.
Are we chill? Good. Now respond and don’t be offended when folks hold you accountable for what exactly what you’ve written.
ck–there is a massive massive difference between holding me accountable for what i’ve written, and completely and totally twisting what i’ve said into something entirely different than what i’ve written.
what i said was that i think it’s distasteful to have a parade when israel is in as bad a state as it is.
what phoebe said i said is that a) israel has no right to exist, b) that all the jews should leave israel, and c) that we should spend independence day engaged in acts of terrorism.
if you can’t see that as being completely disingenuous, and for that matter, a total load of bullshit, for which she makes no apology whatsoever despite it being an outright fallacious interpretation and distortion of my remarks, than you are just as full of it as she is.
Well… your original post was kind of vague. You quoted Dorit Beinisch, then you alluded to the notion that parading in support of Israel was akin to Nero playing his fiddle while all around him, Rome was burning. Later in the comments section, you implied that Israel was “falling to pieces.” Now do you advocate the destruction of the state of Israel? No. But you do seem to want to hold Israel to a standard that is different than that expected of other nations. Examine the logical extension of that sort of thinking and see where it leads and then maybe you can begin to understand some of the criticism directed your way.
Don’t flip out! Just think about what I said. Take a day to respond even… or don’t respond at all! And if you do respond, try not to use the word “shit” or at the very least follow your own “Responsible Speech Online” policy.
I’ve been thinking about this more as I’ve been reading everyone else’s responses. No matter what is going on in Israel or how we feel individually about it’s politics, I don’t think the parade should be cancelled – no matter how badly the country behaves, I do love Israel, and I understand why people want to show their support in this kind of public forum. What made me uncomfotable at the parade (I was only there briefly, but hey) was the complete, overwhelming sense of “woo-hoo, Israel rocks!” at a time when, frankly, it doesn’t. It is a major disconnect to see thousands of people waving flags and being loud and completely joyful about a country whose politicians are frequently corrupt, whose policies are frequently incomprehensible, and whose actions have, in the last year, been both dangerous and embarassing. Honestly, I don’t know what, if anything, would have made me more comfortable, but I absolutely agree that the disconnect exists, and it does make me squirm.