Returnees Welcome?
In a recent post on Jewschool, I explained the issue of Ben Niddah (Jews whose souls are considered by the ultra-Orthodox to be defiled by menstrual blood. Such a category includes the vast majority of liberal and secular Jewry) in the baal teshuvah world, and why this encourages and justifies discrimination against Jews from liberal and secular Jewish backgrounds who join the ultra-Orthodox ranks.
In an essay in the Jerusalem Post, Rabbi Shafran seeks to minimize the problems of baal teshuvahs marrying into haredi families, even as he calls for an increase of such marriages. That is, unless the haredi family doesn’t want to, which just happens to usually be the case. He writes of an anecdotal case where a baal teshuvah (a person from a non-Orthodox religious background becomes haredi) named David marries into an ultra-Orthodox family. This is offered as a situation where a boy meets a girl, nothing more. But we should immediately have some questions even to this singular anecdote. Does the girl’s family have any known converts or baal teshuvahs in her lineage? Is “David” from an exceptionally wealthy family? If the answer is yes to either situation, this story is useless even as an anecdotal case, as in the former situation, the lineage of the ultra-Orthodox family is marred in the eyes of other ultra-Orthodox Jews, and in the latter case, the drawback issue of Ben Niddah was literally compensated for by a tangible positive–wealth, which is rare in the ultra-Orthodox world, particularly in Israel.
Rabbi Shafran writes,
David’s new in-laws were enamored of both him and his parents, and overjoyed at their daughter’s marriage. They hoped, moreover, that their example might perhaps, in a small way, inspire other traditional Orthodox Jews to entertain the possibility of such matches from outside their own community.
That’s very sweet, but it is also a concession that it does not happen very often.
The importance of “family” – i.e. the “pedigree” of a current and well-established Orthodox background – is an understandable concern for many, to be sure; and there are other Halacha-related issues that also come into play in such cases. To some, such concerns may even be paramount, and that stance is their prerogative.
This is an allusion to the Ben Niddah issue.
At the same time, though, it cannot be denied that there is something real and valuable that is gained, too, when an observant Orthodox Jew from an Orthodox family marries an equally observant Orthodox Jew from a different background – gained by the latter, by the former and by the Jewish people as a whole.
Some haredim might in fact deny that the observant Orthodox Jew from an Orthodox family gains anything valuable. But even if they do, what they will more likely be concerned about is whether or not said “benefit” is worth the cost and the risk of bringing in an outsider from a foreign background. Clearly, most do not believe this to be a compelling tradeoff.
“They had hardly been the first “ultra-Orthodox” Jews to welcome a baal teshuva and his family into their own.”
They were not the first. And just as those before them did not change the norm, so too this family will not change the norm. And I’m not saying that this should be the norm. I don’t believe that it is usually appropriate for Jews from liberal and secular backgrounds to marry Jews from insular ultra-Orthodox ones. But then, I don’t believe ultra-Orthodoxy is appropriate for most Jews from liberal and secular backgrounds to start with. However, I certainly accept their choice, as well as the ultra-Orthodox right to recruit adults (as opposed to recruiting underage Jews under false pretenses), provided it is done candidly, and without deception, and they understand issues such as Ben Niddah going into haredism. Which they usually don’t. As I noted previously, the issue of Ben Niddah is not revealed until the recruit is far into the haredi “teshuvah” process. It is concealed, and even here, Rabbi Shafran does not directly address the issue of Ben Niddah, a status that justifies discrimination against and bolsters negative stereotypes about baal teshuvahs. And it is precisely why most haredim from normative haredi backgrounds will never feel a need to eliminate a general negative bias towards baal teshuvahs. All else is wishful thinking, an exception that proves the rule.
If Rabbi Shafran felt this was not such a difficult problem, he would not have been afraid to address the Ben Niddah issue directly. Well, defending a quasi-caste system to liberal and secular company based on the premise that a soul is tarnished by congenital defiled menstrual blood is certainly an undesirable task. But not addressing it directly is really no defense at all.
It should be understood that the issue of Ben Niddah is not pragmatically an issue in the Modern Orthodox world. Since it is not halachically binding, the Modern Orthodox world has little use for casting aspersions upon the masses of Jewry today. This is an ultra-Orthodox outlook, and generally the further right-wing one goes, the more intense the theologically based aversion to “b’nai niddah” becomes.
Never the less, all haredi outreach organizations seeking to craft haredim out of Jews from secular and liberal Jewish backgrounds are concomitantly creating “b’nai niddah.”
The concept of a Jewish quasi-caste system surely seems something foreign and far away to the mainstream secular and religiously liberal Jewish community, which increasingly is giving a nod to the more visible success of instilling Jewish identity and Jewish engagement to teens that the Orthodox outreach groups offer.
But is Ben Niddahism really that far away?
The haredi organizations that attempt to assimilate baal teshuvahs into communities which view them as B’nai Niddah include (but by no means are limited to): Aish HaTorah Jerusalem (at least all branches in Israel), Ohr Somayach (all branches including Neve Yerushalayim), and Kol Yaakov.
NCSY directs secular and liberal American teenagers to all of these haredi organizations, and does not inform them or their parents about the issue of Ben Niddah, and how they wouldn’t assume such a status in a Modern Orthodox community. The Ben Niddah issue is just one of many problems that a baal teshuvah faces in joining an ultra-Orthodox community, but does not face when joining a Modern Orthodox community. There are so many others…the haredi rejection of scientific method, the haredi preference for maximum halachic (Jewish Law) compliance, the oppressive haredi garb (both for men and for women), haredi hostility to higher western culture, and socio-economic downward mobility. In the right-wing of the ultra-Orthodox world, who dominate the Israeli haredim and correspondingly comprise a large percentage of Israel’s baal teshuvah movement and its institutions, the work ethic itself is rejected.
Under its ecumenical front, the Jewish Student Union, NCSY is now operating in over 170 public schools. The primary youth group beneficiary of their work to whom students are directed is (no surprise), NCSY proper.
NCSY’s public school outreach organization, the Jewish “Student” Union, is increasingly funded by Jewish Federations throughout the country.
Although NCSY has been quickly creating and bolstering right-wing Modern Orthodox options to counter recent criticism that it has favored predominantly haredi options for their alumni from liberal and secular backgrounds, NCSY has declined to break their ties with these haredi organizations that offer a Ben Niddah status (and all the other problems) to their students upon successful integration into a haredi community.
It is ironic that a liberal and secular Jewish community that prides itself on its disproportionate role in the Civil Rights Movement apparently has no qualms about funding and facilitating a quasi-caste system for its own teenagers. Defenders will note that only a portion of the teens NCSY works with ever go to NCSY’s haredi partner institutions after high school. But what if a Jewish organization recruited black teens, and the most interested 5% of them were to become second-class citizens because of their birth status? Would that be okay? After all, it’s only 5%…the other 95% don’t have that problem, and they get so much out of it.
It is inconceivable that the mainstream Jewish community would greet such am operation with anything less than outraged protest. But apparently, not for our own. Not because we don’t care about our own, but because we simply don’t understand how real this stuff is to the haredim, or that NCSY directs our teens to these haredi institutions, or that the Jewish Student Union is NCSY controlled.
The liberal and secular Jewish community should demand that NCSY either break its ties with its haredi partners, or lose all Federation support, both monetary, and the rampant corresponding puff pieces in the Federation controlled Jewish weeklies.
NCSY is burning the candle at both ends. They are rapidly infiltrating our public school system, even as they continue to work with organizations and direct their alumni to haredi organizations that recruit Jews into haredi B’nai Niddahism.
NCSY has to choose one or the other. Or the mainstream Jewish community must make that choice for them.
Wow, our commentator has created a make believe imaginary problem between the haredi and other Jews and then uses that make believe problem to say haredi should be booted out of the Jewish community.
Does the word “transparent” come to mind?
ALERT ALERT: There are reports that wild one horned horse like creatures (some refer to them as unicorns) have congregated around the all girl schools in Chicago endangering 1000’s. Even though the police have no reports of the incident, at least one local, a Doovid Chelsey, has called all the news organizations in town to warn that unless all girls schools are shut down, the unicorns will cause vast and serious damage. When questioned whether unicorns even exist, Doovid said: The fact that others aren’t even discussing the unicorn issue is proof of a vast conspiracy to cover up the damage they have caused, in fact the less the unicorn issue is discussed the more certain I am that unicorns are a huge problem! Doovid was last seen warning students at the girls school to stay in their ghettos and not attend to anyone outside their group for fear of expanding the unicorn dangers to more than just the girl students.
the haredi preference for maximum halachic (Jewish Law) compliance
This is not strongly worded enough. Plenty of non-haredi Jews would also say that they prefer “maximum halachic compliance”; the difference is the definition of halacha.
Who cares about the second-class status of these people as long as they and their future children are kept within the Jewish fold?
I mean, it’s a whole lot better than marrying out, right?
NCSY could have these kids standing on street corners selling incense and religious tracts and that would be okay.
It’s a numbers game, and the end justifies the means.
That’s what it’s all about.
And it’s a lot easier than making Judaism compelling and relevant, now isn’t it?
“Shmarya”, or should I say David, nice try, talk to me after you prove the unicorn exists.
The “unicorn” does exist. Try reading DK’s earlier post on it:
http://jewschool.com/2007/07/05/tainted-love-child-the-baal-teshuvahs-status-as-a-ben-niddah-in-the-haredi-world/
Or you can read my post on it here:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/07/judaisms-own-un.html
“its a whole lot better than marrying out”
Really? are you sure? How about saying that it would be good for people to have a Jewish identity that was theirs and that they felt an ownership of, and forget the whole “in” and “out” thing. What difference does it make that almost all Israelis are halakhically jewish if their Jewish practice is nonexistent, and the only reason they even know when the Jewish holidays are is becuase those are the days they go shopping? I’d much rather have a Noah Feldman (who by his own admission goes to shul at least on holidays) than a secular Israeli who might be genetically Jewish but not much more.
And, Kelsey, Yashar Koach, we love you, keep up the good work, etc.
Shmarya, I apologize – I missed your tounge-in-cheeknes and sarcasm. We’re on the same side, except you have more class 🙂
Shmarya, I apologize – I missed your tongue-in-cheekness and sarcasm. We’re on the same side, except you have more class 🙂
Who makes this stuff up? Ben Nidda? I mean, sure you get Karet (death at the hands of heaven) for non-mikvah sex, but why on earth should that apply to children? as ezekiel 18 says “will the parents eat sour grapes and their children’s teeth be blunted”? I think this is more of a sociological “ick” issue for the blood taboo people than a valid halakhic position.
OJ wrote,
“Who makes this stuff up?”
It’s in the Talmud, and explicated by the Rishonim. End of story for the haredim — it must be taken seriously.
Look at how seriously and defensively the issue of sucking a circumcised penis with one’s bare mouth has been taken — even the RWMO Orthodox Union won’t come out and say, “This has to stop,” they will only say they don’t require it. The haredim actually defend the practice, and continue to practice metziza b’ peh.
If haredim are willing to put their own kids to physical risk over a Talmudic blood issues, all the more so they are willing to put others’ kids to sociological risk over a Talmudic blood issue.
Your liberal interpretation of Ezekiel will fall on deaf haredi ears. They don’t care how liberal Jews interpret Judaism. Be realistic.
DK, I’ll take your word for it, but I’m surprised I haven’t come across it before. Do you have a talmudic source, by any chance?
Fortunately for us, the anti-Semites interpret this story as about Jesus, so yes, I have a source! Understand that the bareheaded man is considered flawed and brazen, for he does not cover his head in the presence of great rabbis.
“The following is narrated in the Tract Kallah, 1b:
“Once when the Elders were seated at the Gate, two young men passed by, one of whom had his covered, the other with his head bare. Rabbi Eliezer remarked that the one in his bare head was illegitimate, a mamzer. Rabbi Jehoschua said that he was conceived during menstruation, ben niddah. Rabbi Akibah, however, said that he was both. Whereupon the others asked Rabbi Akibah why he dared to contradict his colleagues. He answered that he could prove what he said. He went therefore to the boy’s mother whom he saw sitting in the market place selling vegetables and said to her: “My daughter, if you will answer truthfully what I am going to ask you, I promise that you will be saved in the next life.” She demanded that he would swear to keep his promise, and Rabbi Akibah did so – but with his lips only, for in his heart he invalidated his oath. Then he said: “Tell me, what kind of son is this of yours”? To which she replied: “The day I was married I was having menstruation, and because of this my husband left me. But an evil spirit came and slept with me and from this intercourse my son was born to me.” Thus it was proved that this young man was not only illegitimate but also conceived during the menstruation of his mother.”
I thought we don’t poskin from aggada?
I thought we don’t poskin from aggada? Also, Kallah isn’t really part of the talmud. It’s a minor tractate
wow, googleing kallah 1b pulls up some crazy stuff.
“If Rabbi Shafran felt this was not such a difficult problem, he would not have been afraid to address the Ben Niddah issue directly.”
DK, you are seriously the only person I have ever heard give the ben niddah “issue” more than 17 seconds of thought. I have never seen any halachic authority give the “concept” any credence–and why should they? It’s from a non-halachic part of the Talmud!
“…haredi organizations that recruit Jews into haredi B’nai Niddahism.”
Huh? “haredi B’nai Niddahism”. Who are those people? The caste that cleans the restrooms? Why would yeshivas bother recruiting a group of people that they don’t even want??? And why should NCSY only have a relationship to those particular yeshivas that you personally approve of?
“Why would yeshivas bother recruiting a group of people that they don’t even want???”
Because the haredim want to take over Israel the Jewish world. And anyway, you may as well ask why any society wants an underclass that is to look up to them and obey them. Surprisingly, most do. Go figure.
“And why should NCSY only have a relationship to those particular yeshivas that you personally approve of?”
The issue is should they have a relationship with yeshivas that liberal and secular Jewish parents would not approve of if thy understood what, in fact, they stand for. There is a reason NCSY sends public school kids to haredi yeshivas, but not already Modern Orthodox kids. The Modern Orthodox parents understand the difference, and will not allow it. The secular and liberal Jews do not understand these crucial differences. Yeshivas like Aish hide that they are haredi assiduously. But they are haredi.
Obviously I can’t expect to convince NCSY that liberal and secular Jewish parents would prefer Modern Orthodoxy to haredism. What I do expect is that over time, I can convince the secular and liberal parents that they do not want ultra-Orthodoxy for their kids.
Let’s look at the precedent. NCSY was not convinced that liberal and secular Jewish parents did not want their girls to be sexually abused or their boys kicked in their groin, even if they didn’t have two kosher witnesses (not like liberal and secular Jewish teens, right?), and even if the rabbi doing such things was really, really, good at kiruv.
But — go figure, when the liberal and secular Jews found out what was happening, it turned out, that in fact, they did care. They cared a lot, and went completely apeshit.
So too here, I don’t expect NCSY to change, or listen to anyone. They know everything. They tell liberal and secular Jews how to modify their behavior, they aren’t told how to modify theirs.
But again, over time, when liberal and secular Jews are educated to the controversy at hand, I think you will find a surprising anger at NCSY, and a forceful, angry reaction, at yet another NCSY betrayal.
This is the process. It’s not for me to change. I have to operate within NCSY’s paradigm.
It isn’t for me to decide, Eric. It’s ultimately for the liberal and secular parents to decide.
I am just attempting to make sure they make an informed choice.
I don’t really understand all the consternation about the ben niddah concept. My feeling is that charedim who really care about it aren’t going to marry ba’ali tshuvah anyway. On top of which, the matchmaking process in the charedi/chasidish community can encompass everything from your siblings’ behavior to your grandparents’ lineage to your parents’ economic status. Someone’s status as a ben niddah is probably the least of their worries.
“Because the haredim want to take over Israel the Jewish world. And anyway, you may as well ask why any society wants an underclass that is to look up to them and obey them” THE PLOT IS DISCOVERED. We now have the theory of everything: We know from the protocols of zion that the Jews run the world, we now know the Haredi run the Jews, so our Jewish (sic) poster thus posits the world as follows: Slaves – Non Jews; Servants – Non Haredi Jews – Rulers of the World – the Haredi. The only part of the plot left undiscovered is which of the rebbees rule the Haredi – My Vote is the Satmars – the recent split between the 2 brothers was nothing as mundane as reported, in reality it was over who runs President Bush. (interesting question for our intrepid poster, do the Haredi only run the countries they live in, or is there a secret counsel of Heredi that controls the entire world? I will expose all this in future postings!
It’s hardly a conspiracy or secret that critical elements of the haredi world seek expansion, and greater power. What is the call for “teshuvah” really? it is a call for others to become like them: haredi.
Look what is happening in Jerusalem — all non-haredi Jews are being pushed out. No secret at all.
Satmar is different — they do not seek to convert others. They do no seek to control others.
You’re wrong, DK, they are such successful conspirators that they have pulled the over your eyes – in fact they are the ultimate rulers of the Chasidic world, I’ve had many a Chabadnik confess to me with tears in their eyes that the Rebbee himself followed Satmar orders – have you noticed over the years how close the two have become. If you shake hands with a Satmar and slightly extend the index finger, that’s the secret handshake, they will immediately believe you are in on their conspiracy and tell all (e.g. what their current orders are to Pres. Bush, what they’ve instructed Putin to say, etc.). Please keep this to yourself, it’s top secret.
No — it is not a conspiracy, and it is not secret. It is quite open in terms of hierarchy. What is “daas Toyrah?” “Daas Toyrah” is the belief among the B’nai Torah (yeshiva movement adherents) that leading haredi leaders are near infallible, and must be obeyed both in terms of ritual law and in terms of political outlook.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/11/todays-daas-torah.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da'as_Torah
http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/comments/DAASTORAH.htm (this one is from Rabbi Gottlieb of Ohr Somayach — complete haredi revisionist fanaticism — check it out!)
DK, I think maybe you know more than you are willing to say: have the Satmars struck fear into your heart; are you unwilling to reveal what you know to be true, the Satmars control the Hassids, the Hassids control the Jews, and the Jews control the world?
“It’s hardly a conspiracy or secret that critical elements of the haredi world seek expansion, and greater power. What is the call for “teshuvah” really? it is a call for others to become like them: haredi.”
Yes. I’ve heard the same nefarious whispers from modern Orthodox synagogues and even the Reconstructionist movement. I think a whole lot of people are in on this sinister game they call “expansion”.
Your appeals to fears of “haredi B’nai Niddahism”, DK, are just silly. This is really absolute nonsense. No such status or institution or “caste” exists. Anywhere. It plainly fails the smell test when you claim that “haredi” yeshivas are bringing thousands of people into their communities who will never marry anybody. Why would they do that???
With all of the frank and open discussion about ‘shidduch crises’ in the orthodox community, don’t you think the obvious surge of shidduch crises created by some “haredi B’nai Niddahism caste system” would have been noticed by all of the organizations and people working on this issue and with these people? Don’t you think that one or two of the hundreds of articles and speakers that talk about this topic would have mentioned it? Oh….are they all in on this conspiracy too?
Your claim also fails the logic test because the whole “concept” comes from a non-halachic part of the Talmud and as far as I know is not codified into Jewish law anywhere. As far as we know the term itself is part of an encoded conversation referring to one specific individual. The notion that this somehow applies, or has ever been applied, or is somehow “just waiting” to be applied to Jews en masse anywhere is manifestly false. This is a dead vapor-horse that you keep electrocuting.
“The concept of a Jewish quasi-caste system surely seems something foreign and far away to the mainstream secular and religiously liberal Jewish community,”
It also seems foreign and far away to anybody who has interaction with the religiously conservative and even “haredi” Jewish community. That’s because it doesn’t exist.
DK, there’s plenty of real space if you want it for argument with haredi philosophy, socioeconomics, worldview, etc. But you’re bashing haredi schools here based on absolutely nothing. A total figment that simply does not exist and has never existed!
Is your recognition of this “status’s” non-existence the reason for your resort to the future-oriented query: “But is Ben Niddahism really that far away?”
OK, so we all admit that it doesn’t exist now. But doesn’t it at least have to be close?!!!! At least a little bit??!
Uh-huh. It sure could be close. From somebody. At sometime. Somehow. Somewhere.
“Anywhere. It plainly fails the smell test when you claim that “haredi” yeshivas are bringing thousands of people into their communities who will never marry anybody. Why would they do that???”
They are to marry others like them.
“Your claim also fails the logic test because the whole “concept” comes from a non-halachic part of the Talmud and as far as I know is not codified into Jewish law anywhere. As far as we know the term itself is part of an encoded conversation referring to one specific individual. The notion that this somehow applies, or has ever been applied, or is somehow “just waiting” to be applied to Jews en masse anywhere is manifestly false.”
It is non-halachic. I have never said it was halachic. However, this was a serious issue even for the Chafetz Chaim.
“It also seems foreign and far away to anybody who has interaction with the religiously conservative and even “haredi” Jewish community. That’s because it doesn’t exist.”
It doesn’t exist because they are not seeking acceptance in the haredi community.
The issue of B’nai Niddah is important in justifying the inferior status of baal teshuvahs generally in the haredi world. Of course, there are many other things to rely one’s contempt on besides this one.
thanks eric for taking the time to take apart dk ‘s fantasy crisis. HE wishes it were a crisis but it is not. We all know of hundred’s of bt’s who married into frum families.
new post same stuff.
“in the haredi world. Of course, there are many other things to rely one’s contempt on” DK, I really appreciate your efforts to warn us that the Satmars are the evil rulers of the world. I understand you are afraid to say that outright, I’m sure you feel your life would be in danger should you outright set out the evil plot – but thanks to you we now see that Hitler was right, that
the Iranian president was right, that Hamas was right, they are all fighting to stamp out the secret Satmar cabal that rules the world –
the plot is nefarious beyond belief, first the Satmars rule the Herredi world (as proved by the Rebbees advising all to follow their lead (cf your prior cites);
then the Harredi world turns all the world’s Jews into an “untouchable” caste, the second class Jews do all the dirty work, like capturing the political power over all the worlds leaders; and then the world does the bidding the just one man, the Satmar Rebbee.
DK, I admire your insight! And now a confession, I too know about the plot, indeed I’m part of it, since my mother was born during a full moon (as you’ve previously indicated that makes me even lower caste than B’nai Niddahism)
– my assignment is way down the totem pole, to run the mayor of Los Angeles.
Oh, the pain of a 3rd class Jew – doom (cf your prior cites) to mopping up the floor of the local shul, bowing in subservience to any Hassid I meet, and of course kissing the ground and never rising in the presence of a Satmar
thank you DK for exposing my plight!