Culture, Religion

Actually, Not Sure What's For Dinner

Looks like the practice of eating hot dairy “out” might be up for debate sometime soon.
The Jewish Week reports,

A survey of Conservative clergy released last week found that more than 80 percent eat warmed fish in non-kosher restaurants, prompting the chairman of the movement’s rabbinic kosher subcommittee to begin writing a legal opinion that will likely restrict what Conservative Jews may or may not eat in non-kosher restaurants.
Such a sweeping opinion, if approved by the movement’s Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, would radically change Conservative practice that has been in place for more than a generation. And it would also set Rabbi Paul Plotkin, the subcommittee chairman and a recognized expert in kashrut for the Conservative movement, on a collision course with more liberal Conservative rabbis who argue that halacha must change with the times.

Full story.
The firestorm around gay ordination has finally died down, so I suppose it’s somebody’s job to keep things lively, eh? Let the pizza wars begin.

47 thoughts on “Actually, Not Sure What's For Dinner

  1. “…that will likely restrict what Conservative Jews may or may not eat in non-kosher restaurants.”
    Ummmmmmmmm… I worked as a youth director in a large Conservative shul for some time, and I have worked with MANY Conservative shuls in other capacities, and I don’t think that much of what the kashrut committee says does now or will ever “restrict what Conservative Jews may ore may not eat”. I could count on one hand the number of families I’ve worked with from the Conservative movement who kept any semblance of kosher. If they’re eating meat and milk at home, I doubt that the warmed fish is going to strike them as beyond the pale.

  2. Yaakov, you realize that the movement would probably tell you that Conservative Jews who don’t keep kosher aren’t really Conservative, they just happen to belong to conservative shuls.
    And the article said *clergy* – but I don’t understand why any movement would start a “big brother is watching you” campaign against a practice very popular with many American Jews who keep kosher.

  3. Very fascinating, but this article is from February. Is there any particular reason why it’s relevant now? Do you know if anything has changed since the article was published?

  4. I’d like to talk about this idea:
    But Rabbi Barry Leff, of Toledo, Ohio, said that although he agrees with Rabbi Plotkin’s conclusion [that ‘Servo Jews may not eat hot dairy out], he believes halacha, or Jewish law, has to adapt to the times.
    “Every once in a while we have to bring halacha into line with what people are doing or we lose respect for the system,” he explained. “Don’t impose something on the community unless they will abide by it,” and a change in halacha now would not be accepted by the people.

    Call me some kind of reactionary Orthodox supremacist, but I don’t think I agree that “halacha changes with the times” means “we should change halacha to accomodate what people like to do”. There’s got to be a sense that even though many people are breaking a law, it’s still a law — otherwise where is the Torah’s authority to make demands on us at all?
    It seems to me that when “halacha changes”, it changes because of a changed circumstance in our environment, or because of an evolution in our understanding of God’s universe. For instance:
    – the FDA obviating the need for kosher supervision of milk
    – our recognition of the wholeness & biological reality of gays and lesbians conflicting with rabbinic proscription of their relationships
    – the observation by the Meiri and other Rishonim that most modern non-Jewish religions are more ethical & more monotheistic than the idolatries of Canaan and Rome and that this has halachic ramifications
    But I don’t think the belief that “halacha changes” allows one to change it on behalf of a hankering for The Olive Garden or Papa John’s.

  5. To my knowledge, they don’t serve warmed fish at Papa John’s, not counting anchovies, and I think it would be filthy and gross if they did, and I would like to believe that even people who did not keep kosher, Jewish or otherwise, would never eat the “warmed fish dinner” from Papa John’s.
    But the Olive Garden is a different story. When you’re there, you’re family, and I think that the importance that Judaism places on family would mitigate any potential halachic issues in that regard.
    Also, unlimited breadsticks. All religions should support this, no matter what. In fact, the Conservative rabbinate should be writing teshuvot that demand an increase in the portions at the Olive Garden. These days, they’ll only give you one at a time. Unacceptable!

  6. Middle-aged, native Israeli, Modern Orthodox friends of my family live in Jerusalem. They are classically frum, with all the outward, Steven Cohen-defined accoutrements (strictly shomer shabbat, shomer kashrut, pray three times a day, etc. etc.) The husband is a 6th or 7th generation Yerushalmi from a religious family all the way back. He also happens to travel abroad a lot. And when he’s there, he will go to a non-kosher restaurant, ask a lot of questions, and, if satisfied with the answers, eat “warmed dairy out.”
    It seems to me that this is a much more traditional way of being traditional. Unlike some leaders of the Conservative Movement, our family friend has never entertained the thought that someone might consider him un-frum. He’s not defensive about a practice that his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather engaged in or might have engaged in, and that seems to him to fall within the bounds of both acceptable practice and rational behavior.

  7. “Call me some kind of reactionary Orthodox supremacist, but I don’t think I agree that “halacha changes with the times” means “we should change halacha to accomodate what people like to do”.?
    Nope. Check out gemara shabbos 40b, the Rif 18b, and the shulchan oruch, orach chaim 326:1 (I think…). They all relate to how chazal forbade the use of water heated by running it through pipes that ran through hot springs in Tiveria, on shabbos. This is water heated on shabbos, which would clearly by ossur! However, according to the mishna, the rabbis saw that the halacha simply wouldn’t be accepted, so they changed it.
    As far as eating “warmed dairy out,” if it’s not cheese, it ~might~ be acceptable (see http://www.kashrut.org, where R’ Abadi gives a lot of guidance for making these determinations on ones own). If by dairy we mean cheese, then there’s no way. One would be over on the issur of gvinas akum/gvinas goy (depending on whether the source is ashkenazi or sephardi), which is a clear ossur based on all of the halacha seforim.

  8. I agree with Yaakov’s first comment, not because few Conservative Jews keep kosher (in fact, lots of them do), but because people either do or don’t “eat dairy out”, and no one (beyond a handful of JTS first-years) is going to change his/her practice based on a ruling from the CJLS.

  9. The Conservative movement holds by Rav Menachem Klein’s psak regarding cheese (which permits most American cheeses, as did Rav Soloveitchik), so that’s not really an issue. An interesting halachic and Jewish debate would be one between Jack Wertheimer, advocating increased emphasis on traditional prohibitions on gentile wine, cheese and bread — for fear of the intermarriage bogeyman — and Jill Jacobs, who made a very compelling case in her discussion of kosher wine that liberal choose should not be blindly embracing such separatism.

  10. It’d be a moot point if the USCJ got off its but and made Kosher supervision a priority and took the monopoly away from the Ortho Nostra. Or perhaps underwriting Kosher supervision in communities could help. A doubling of the number of Kosher eateries would make this infinately less of an issue for those wanting to keep kosher, and easier for others to start doing so.
    But perhaps they should start by introducing some ‘Common Sense Kosher’ guidelines to teach. Providing education and stepping stones might help this be an issue that’s more relevant to Conservative Jews in general and not ust the 20% of them who at one time or another care.

  11. i am in agreement with messr davis above.
    a serious problem with the kashrut industry is that they have a captive market, and they have not had to work to get customers. the food is ridiculously overpriced, often served at low quality. this inflation is due to the small size of market and the absurdly inflated fees for mashgichim.
    it’s time for a new movement to help amcha: GRASSROOT KASHRUT.

  12. chillul is totally right. Until there’s a tsuvah on unlimited breadsticks i’m boycotting the uscj and it’s kashrut policy.
    secondly, were the movement to actually pass this issue, there would be no rabbinic students left at JTS. I’ve been to the papa johns on Amsterdam in the 90s. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

  13. Reb Yudel:
    “The Conservative movement holds by Rav Menachem Klein’s psak regarding cheese (which permits most American cheeses, as did Rav Soloveitchik)…”
    I don’t know who R’ Klein is, but I assume this is the Conservative psak din? R’ Soloveitchik did not “permit most American cheeses.” This is certainly an issue of contention, but there are plenty of people who outright asked him the shaila and he said no, that it must be hechshered. My understanding is that he didn’t muter nonhechshered cheeses b’chlal, but rather he disagreed over the status of specific cheeses. I’m not sure what points he disagreed on. I know, for example, that cream cheese does not halachically qualify as a “cheese,” and therefore does not necessitate it’s being made by a Jew. Perhaps he was talking about other rennetless soft cheeses? If you assert that he held this way b’chlal, please point me to a tshuva or responsa.
    “…so that’s not really an issue. An interesting halachic and Jewish debate would be one between Jack Wertheimer, advocating increased emphasis on traditional prohibitions on gentile wine, cheese and bread — for fear of the intermarriage bogeyman — and Jill Jacobs, who made a very compelling case in her discussion of kosher wine that liberal choose should not be blindly embracing such separatism.”
    Bread, wine, and cheese are completely separate issues. Al pi shulchan oruch, bread can be made by anyone. If you can be certain of the ingredients, then it’s kosher. Stam. No question. By Rosh Hashanah some have the tradition to be stringent and try to eat only pas yisroel by that specific chag, but the halachah is clear, pas palter (bread of the baker) is kosher. Cheese, again according to the shulchan oruch, mishna berura, etc… must be made by a Jew. I don’t understand it. It makes no sense to me. But it’s the halachah. It’s stam from the seforim. If one doesn’t accept the seforim, that’s there prerogative, and I don’t want anyone to think I’m making a judgement about that. I’m just saying that it’s pretty cut and dry. The question is only “does this specific product qualify as cheese.” The idea of a bogeyman or mixing with gentiles has nothing to do with bread and cheese.
    Wine is the only place that mixing with the spooky gentiles is mentioned (of these three, to my knowledge, please correct me if I’m wrong). The primary reason for drinking only kosher wine is that, in cultures with strong traditions of making and drinking wine, it is almost always associated with religious ritual. Therefore, to ensure that the wine that we use for our rituals was never intended for any other religious rituals, and to ensure that it was specifically intended for Jewish rituals, we don’t use yayin stam. The issue of drinking alcohol with non-Jews b’chlal is mentioned, but there a clear ossur. Chazal only specifically ossured drinking wine with gentiles, not beer, vodka, arak, or whatever it was you used to get wasted on in your particular heimeshe ghetto when we couldn’t afford wine.
    In choosing kosher wine, I’m not blindly embracing separatism, I’m embracing sanctification. This wine is a beautiful tool to embody and channel holiness through my family’s heritage, and I want it to have been associated with that heritage since it was a crushed grape. Besides, isn’t a little bit of separatism part and parcel of Judaism and Torah as a whole?

  14. “…absurdly inflated fees for mashgichim…”
    Mashgichim are cheap (they too often earn a crap wage). It’s the hashgacha that’s wicked expensive.
    How would a grassroots kashrus system work? It’s certainly a good idea.
    I’ve never ONCE seen the word hechser in the Torah or the gemara or the shulchan oruch. Seems to me that going back to a system where one knows and trusts the folks behind the counter and in the kitchen of the restaurant would be a step in the right direction. If I trust Mrs. and Mr. X, and I eat in their house on shabbos, then why won’t I eat in their restaurant on Tuesday?

  15. By Rosh Hashanah some have the tradition to be stringent and try to eat only pas yisroel by that specific chag
    As in, any time before Rosh Hashanah? Why? Is this a yoshon issue somehow?

  16. “As in, any time before Rosh Hashanah? Why? Is this a yoshon issue somehow?”
    No, just that some people try to be makpid on that chumra specifically on R”H. I don’t know why or what the connection is.
    Personally, I like the challot on R”H from the old mekubalot (old sephardi kabbalah ladies) with the hand-shaped cut outs of dough on them. At least they looked like hands before they went in the oven. When they come out they look like massive deformed hands. Kabbalistic significance of some sort, but not sure what. I’m sure google could tell me, but I like some mystery in my baked goods.
    By Yoshon, there’s an interesting Soloveitchik story (you have to know how R’ Soloveitchik sounded, or at least how people impersonating him today make him sound, to get the full effect). R’ Soloveitchik didn’t hold by yashon, but his brother, R’ Aharon Soloveitchik in Chicago did. One time, in the shiur at YU, where he was apparently a very intimidating character, some guy gets up the nerve to ask him why he doesn’t hold by yoshon if his brother does. R’ Soloveitchik apparently said something like: “My fadder was a rabbi, and he held by yoshon, my grandfadder was a rabbi, and he held by yoshon, and now my brodder is a rabbi, and he holds my yoshon. But my mother! Her family were rabbis too! I hold by my modder!”

  17. The halacha “changing with the times” argument is not very impressive. Seriously, what does that mean in practice? People stop learning the halacha, or are ignorant of it, or just don’t feel like keeping it anymore so….we should just ditch it? Does that make any sense? I imagine most Jews in America may not know when Shavuot or Purim or Tisha b’Av are either; does he want to ditch those too?
    Maybe the problem isn’t the halacha but the fact that people feel comfortable being ignorant of it.

  18. A debate about hechshered vs. non-hechshered wine– anyone ready for rotten tomatoes to start flying?
    (for the record I’ve been part of such a debate in which rotten tomatoes did not fly, at least none I saw. But that had pre-established mutual respect, a desire to make it work, and first class moderation in its favor. seriously, these things bring up really strong feelings.)
    On a more serious note, vis-a-vis non-hechshered restaurants while traveling– wouldn’t that be a case of “bedi’eved” (non-ideal situation), in which case there is more leniency?

  19. Chillul Who’s comment isn’t just the view of a “reactionary Orthodox supremacist” — as a CJ, I agree fully. There is a principle that the rabbis shouldn’t impose a rule on the community if the community is not prepared to abide by it (for this purpose, BTW, the “community” consists of those who are halachically observant), but my understanding is that this priniciple is limited to rules that would be imposed as a matter of rabbinic legislation (takanot, g’zerot). But where the “new rule” is not a novel enactment, but rather a new interpretation of old law, I don’t think that principle applies. (The source that Yaakov cites against Chillul Who seems precisely an example of a g’zera — straightforward rabbinic legislation. That’s why it was withdrawn when the rabbis concluded that people wouldn’t follow it.)
    To the extent that I understand it (and I’m no kashrut expert), the issues involved in eating hot dairy food in a non-kosher restaurant are not ones of new rabbinic legislation, but of revisiting old questions. Contemporary CJ rabbinic authorities may conclude (a) that the earlier decisions were misinformed about science or about actual restaurant practices, (b) that food industry or restaurant practices have changed in relevant ways since those earlier decisions were issued, (c) that the halachic reasoning of the earlier decisions was deficient, or (d) that that halachic reasoning, while defensible, relied on tenuous bases (e.g., minority opinions), and the growth in availability of certified kosher products and restaurants means that there’s less justification for permitting such leniencies. None of these conclusions would involve new rabbinic legislation, so it’s difficult to understand Rabbi Leff’s comment about “bring[ing] halacha into line with what people are doing.”

  20. No tomatoes necessary. Trying to cut back.
    ?On a more serious note, vis-a-vis non-hechshered restaurants while traveling– wouldn’t that be a case of “bedi’eved” (non-ideal situation), in which case there is more leniency?”
    Sort of, but not in the way that you’re describing it. The situation would be b’dieved because, as a non-hechshered restaurant, we treat it, assume it’s a non-Jews, and therefore there can be no lechatchila. However it’s not b’dieved in the sense that one didn’t HAVE to go there. Thus the laws that apply to the individual going to the restaurant would be l’chatchila, but the the requirements that we would place on the restaurant itself would be b’dieved. Also, interestingly, al pi shulchan oruch, we assume that any kelim used in the restaurant have NOT been used in 24 hours, with all of the halachic implications that implies (again, because b’dieved it is acceptable in certain circumstances to use them, and it’s the non-Jewish restaurant using them, therefore the only requirement is the b’dieved requirement).

  21. tarfon:
    You make a good point. I’m not sure that the issue that I raised, however, is a simple rabbinical takanah. It’s certainly not an av malacha, but it is still a tolada of bishul. It’s midnight on my side of the pond; if I remember, tomorrow I’ll go look into it some more and see how it might fall according to your argument.

  22. Yaakov– I don’t mean a non-hechshered restaurant in B-more or NYC or Jerusalem so much as when you find yourself in Ramalla or China or somewhere where you are simply not going to find hechshered food.
    As I’ve had the halacha explained to me, you aren’t prohibited from going to place X, you just can fall back on bedi’eved halacha.
    Accordingly, a place like New Orleans wouldn’t count, because while the restaurants were as treif as I’ve ever seen, the supermarkets were loaded with kosher food.
    I’ll try to dig up my old source sheet on this.
    Btw, I’m very much looking forward to good times talking halacha with you when you and D are back on this side of the pond 🙂

  23. BZ– people like to take on chumras (stringencies) before Rosh Hashana to get extra brownie points with God before getting judged. It only doesn’t make sense if you think about it.
    I’ve heard of chalav yisrael (cholov yisroel?) being used for that.

  24. I’m impressed by the respectful tone of this discussion and by the knowledge of many of the contributors. My perspective on these issues is that of an (striving to be) observant Jew that regularly davens at an egalitarian Conservative shul as well as occasionally at a liberal Orthodox “Indie Minyan” at a local university. Roughly a quarter of the average Shabbat attendees walk to my shul – thanks to the availability of sidewalks to make it safe, which many suburban areas lack – and more than half of the households are kosher to varying understandings of the specifics. Most families I know are mutar on all cheese and most will also eat hot dairy out; non-kosher supervised vegetarian pizza is eaten by 99% of the laity. Our rabbi is far more strict and I believe will only eat out at some unsupervised vegetarian places.
    I’d like to offer a few thoughts on some of Yaakov’s comments:
    Bread, wine, and cheese are completely separate issues. Al pi shulchan oruch, bread can be made by anyone. If you can be certain of the ingredients, then it’s kosher. Stam. No question.

    I must admit to a shiver of joy when I read these statements. Finally, I have the pleasure of reading the thoughts of someone who understands this particular non-issue.
    Cheese, again according to the shulchan oruch, mishna berura, etc… must be made by a Jew. I don’t understand it. It makes no sense to me. But it’s the halachah. It’s stam from the seforim.

    I would offer that’s not exactly correct. The two main positions brought down in most texts do require supervision, but differ on what that entails. Although the current fashion for Orthodoxy is to follow the strict supervision position (an observant Jew literally places the tiny amount of rennet into the batch of thousands of gallons of milk), the texts are clear there is a less strict position, and anecdotally I’ve spoken to enough Orthodox Jews that lived 50 years ago to know many of them were mutar on cheese at that time.
    Additionally, it’s clear that a third position was defined by some of the Tosafoth, including R. Jacob b. Meïr Tam (Rabbeinu Tam), in which cheese made from “grass” (i.e. vegetarian “rennet”) required no strict supervision at all. This position is still followed in many European communities, and is sometimes referred to as the “heter of R. Tam”.
    Now, since the vast majority of cheese manufactured in the U.S.A. is made from either vegetable or microbial rennet, it seems reasonable to ask: wouldn’t most of this cheese be kosher by the standard of R. Tam? The answer is clear to me: yes.
    If one doesn’t accept the seforim, that’s there prerogative, and I don’t want anyone to think I’m making a judgement about that. I’m just saying that it’s pretty cut and dry. The question is only “does this specific product qualify as cheese.” The idea of a bogeyman or mixing with gentiles has nothing to do with bread and cheese.
    The rabbinic gezera regarding gevinat Yisrael is, by my understanding, generally considered in a class by itself apart from the other anti-stam ordinances. I agree: it is an important question regarding what is or is not covered by the gezara. Even if you follow the strict position on cheese supervision, like the Rabbis Abadi, you can be “clear” of it if you believe certain soft products aren’t really cheese.
    Wine is the only place that mixing with the spooky gentiles is mentioned (of these three, to my knowledge, please correct me if I’m wrong). The primary reason for drinking only kosher wine is that, in cultures with strong traditions of making and drinking wine, it is almost always associated with religious ritual. Therefore, to ensure that the wine that we use for our rituals was never intended for any other religious rituals, and to ensure that it was specifically intended for Jewish rituals, we don’t use yayin stam.

    I agree to the extent of ritual, which is why I, and most of the observant Jews I know use only kosher wine for sanctification rituals. Otherwise, though, yayin stam may be on the menu for some meals. Interestingly, the original reason I refused to give up yayin stam was because the kosher wines didn’t offer high quality wine for reasonable prices. Things are, very, very different now, and most of the time I purchase kosher wine because I’m now offered good wines at (almost) reasonable prices.
    BTW, also included in the collection of kashruth gezaroth is the prohibition of eating “their salted fish”. Tell me: does anyone believe that the lox they enjoy on a bagel is constantly supervised in its production? Whoops.

  25. There’s nothing so complicated here. Conservative Jews largely don’t want to keep kosher, as kosher is understood in halacha. It’s no surprise – keeping kosher is, I would argue, the mitzvah that msot eprvades your life, more than even Shabbat. Keeping kosher means far less access to food, much less interaction with peopel who don’t eat kosher, and a much more restricted menu. Little will make you feel as alienated from the world around you as eating kosher, and little will burn as big a hole in your pocket on an ongoing basis.
    What if kosher looked a little different though? What if chicken and milk was ok? What if bread, cheese (with rennet from non-meat sources) and wine were acceptable, regardless of maker? What if non-Glatt slaughter was standard, waiting time between milk and meat was an hour, and glazed and glass dishes could be used for milk or meat interchangeably? In exchange for these leniencies, what if we required hechers to ensure ethical business and animal treatment standards?
    You know what you’d have? You’d have a revolution. I bet that you’d triple the number of Jews keeping kosher overnight, and you’d have 3/4 of Jewery keeping kosher in a generation.

  26. OK, if we’re talking rennet here, I have to say, I never have quite gotten the issue. Technically speaking rennet is permissible in cheese because it’s davar chadash. That said, if it’s davar chadash from a kosher animal, and that makes it kosher, shouldn’t it be davar chadash no matter where it comes from? So what’s the issue about the source of the cheese (when based on the rennet and not something else). And just for the record – I only eat cheeses with microbial or veg rennet (or none) since IMO, if we’re going to outlaw rennet, we should be consistent about it, and I’m holding stringently until I can get an explanation that makes sense to me.

  27. Kol Ra’ash Gadol:
    It hasn’t been clearly established by the poskim (I’m talking only in the orthodox world here, again, no judgements, that’s just what I personally hold by generally speaking) that it is a dvar chadash. To be a dvar chadash it has to be inedible as a food product. Prove that it’s inedible as a food product, and you’re ok USING rennet from a non-kosher source to make your own cheese. This would not, however, affect the unique gezera that applies only to cheese, which is that if it’s not Jewish owned milk, a Jew must add the rennet, or if it is Jewish owned milk, a Jew must at least supervise the addition of the rennet. This is a unique halacha applicable only to cheese. It doesn’t matter if it’s kosher rennet, treif rennet, rennet from a cow, a pig, a microbe, or a blade of grass. If it’s a rennet-set cheese, the coagulating agent must be added by a Jew (or possibly just under Jewish supervision).
    Rejewvenator:
    I’m all for overturning chumras, but what you’re talking about isn’t overturning chumras, it’s changing the basic framework of the halachah. The gemara makes frequent reference to the sadukim, who reject oral torah. So, nu, follow their halachah and have chicken and milk! You’re not talking about holding by leaniencies, but about rejecting some basics. We do, however, need to get rid of some of the chumras. Look at Gemara Berachot 5a, toward the bottom. “Greater to God is the one who toils and sweats than the one who is yirei shamayim (God-fearing).” The Maharash says that this is a reference to a talmid chacham who is asked a shaila. He could be yirei shamayim and give the machmir opinion, or he could toil and sweat over the seforim to find the lenient and position. As we see over and over again the gemara, the strength of the lenient is greater than that of the stringent.
    Nathan:
    The two positions I’m familiar with are that either a Jew puts the rennet (whatever the source) into the non Jewish-owned milk, or the Jew supervises the non-Jew putting it into the Jewish-owned milk. If you can point me to sources laying out a more meikel position, please do so!!! Where is the heter of rabeinu tam? Please point me to the tosefot so I can learn it out inside! Also, do you know anywhere that the particular position is relied upon by the poskim? The issue with trusting that, is that while the majority of cheese-makers in the US do use vegetarian rennet, it can’t be assured, as the large makers will buy cheese on the open market to make up for under-runs, or for increased demand, and label it as their own (Kraft does this very frequently).
    As for salted fish, again, please point me to the sources in the seforim, but I would say that if you’re getting hechshered lox, you’re in the clear. This would just mean that specifically non-hechshered lox would be in the category of non-permitted foods. But it is a machloket b’chlal, so it would depend on what rav you hold by. Also, I know that by hilchos shabbos you can’t rinse a salted fish on shabbat because that would be considered finishing the cooking process. Therefore, purchasing salted fish from non-Jews, maybe isn’t considered cooked, and therefore it’s ok? Or maybe it’s that lox are smoked more than they are salted? Not sure on this one, again, point me to the source so I can learn more about it!
    Rebecca M:
    mmmmmmm… brownies…
    As for the bidieved thing, the relevant halachas, to my understanding, still aren’t on you or I or the individual doing the eating, unless it’s a situation where you’re on a desert island and the ONLY food that exists is already cooked food from a non-kosher restaurant. Otherwise, the relevant halachas that must be considered are all on the ones doing the cooking, generally assumed to be non-Jews, and therefore ALWAYS considered only in terms of bidieved, never lechatchila. You still have to deal with bishul akum/bishul goy, but all of the sudden batel b’shishim comes up, and olives…. yumm…. olives with RED WINE in the marinade, because the wine is batel b’sheish, not b’shishim, etc… Some might say that lechatchila you should go the kosher restaurant instead of the non-kosher one, and only b’dieved to the non-kosher one. I would disagree. They might even say that you shouldn’t go because of ma’aris ayin. They would be outright lying.
    Where will you be for sukkos?

  28. Yaakov– in the greater DC area. and hopefully visiting you guys at some point 🙂 In fact, I believe I already rsvp-ed to DJK over facebook.
    I’m not sure what your point was above– want to try again, or wait till sukkot?

  29. Rebecca M:
    One more try, I guess what I’m saying (really just a semantic argument sort of) is that there’s a difference in the halachah based upon who the halachah is being applied to. If the halachah’s are being applied to the Jewish consumer, then one might be “relying on a bidieved.” If, however, the consumer is in a non-kosher restaurant, and we’re talking about what the cook is cooking, then there IS no l’chatchila, therefore the only halachah to be applied is the bidieved. The b’dieved is almost now the l’chatchila. Is that any clearer? I’m not sure that I’m expressing myself so well.
    Also, I asked my rav about the gelatin vs. rennet issue, he said that it’s not considered a dvar chadash. He’s not an expert on the issue, so he didn’t have a lot of details, but basically, it’s something between basar and a dvar chadash, where it’s permitted to be used in cheese, but not permitted from a treif source.

  30. where it’s permitted to be used in cheese, but not permitted from a treif source.
    I’ve heard this before, and it makes no sense to me. Either the rennet retains the essence of where it came from, or it doesn’t. If the former, then cheese containing any animal rennet is basar bechalav (and it’s actually worse if it comes from a kosher animal), and if the latter, then it doesn’t matter where the rennet came from.
    Yes, I believe that there’s a sefer somewhere that says this, but that only proves that sloppy halachic reasoning didn’t begin with the Conservative movement.

  31. hey guys,there’s a lot of awesome debates going on here. I do have 2 requests:
    can people try to cite their sources, or specify when they aren’t sure of the exact source? I’d love to be able to look up everything that’s been quoted here, but Im not quite sure where to start. Speicifcally, the SHulchan Aruch (16th century compilation of jewish law) and mishnah Brura (20th century elaboration on shulchan aruch) sources on rennet always needing supervision, and the Rabenu tam source on grass rennet being fine (which makes more sense to me)
    can people try to provide translations of hebrew terms they use, so that interested readers can better follow the debate, regardless of hebrew knowledge?
    Also Yaakov, could you clarify a bit more of the nafka mina (practical conclusions) of your distinction of whether leniancies go according to the food-cooker or food-eater? does this mean that certain non-jewish restuarants can count as kosher while a jewish owned-restuarant doing the same things would not? what sort of leniancies, other than wine-flavored olives?
    and I thought that noten taam (contributing to the flavor) outwieghted batal b’shishim (a law that non-kosher ingredients that are less than 1/60 of teh total volume of food) don’t count, therefore foods with the sketchy label “natural flavors” in the ingedients are suspected for being non kosher. (I do not know sources on this last one)

  32. So I did some research into the whole mixing of milk and meat issue… Let’s check out the Rambam, shall we? The rishonim ask why rennet from a non-kosher animal (or kosher animal that was not slaughtered kosherly) makes the cheese treif. It’s battel b’shishim, meaning that it is nullified because it’s less than one part in 60. The Rambam in hilchot maachalot asurut 3:13 says that since it’s a dvar hamamid, something that is necessary for the final product (without the wine, the olive would still be the olive, without the rennet, the cheese would be spoiled milk), therefore it’s not battel b’shishim. In the same source, but a bit later, at 9:16, the Rambam says “What the fuck? If it’s a d’var ma’amid, and is necessary, and can’t be batel b’shishim, why isn’t it basar v’chalav (milk and meat) and therefore trief???” The Rambam answers that the halachah that a dvar ma’amid can never be made batel applies only if the dvar hamamid is ALREADY assur. The rennet from a treif animal is already assur, therefore it can’t be batel, but the rennet from a kosher animal is permitted, therefore it CAN be made batel.
    OK, the source for the relevant Rabeinu tam is avodah zara 35a, but is rejected in the shulchan aruch yoreh deah 115:2 (and the rama) with goes entirely with the rambam. The Rama even issues a warning against violating this specific issur. He says that the ONLY people allowed to follow the lenient view are those who hold by the geonim of narbonne. The Rama on yoreh deah 87:10 says that even though the stomach lining is reduced to “wood” meaning, essentially, a dvar chadash, the ossur is still in place, and therefore, even with non-animal rennet, the ossur is still in place.
    Sarah M:
    For sources on supervision, see the Rama to yoreh deah 115:2, which says that a Jew merely needs to monitor the process, and it’s the same as chalav akum (milk of a non-Jew). The Shach seems to say on 115:20 that it is not like chalav akum, but rather, like pas akum (the bread of the individual non-Jew, made at his or her house, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH WHAT I MENTIONED BEFORE, which was pas palter, bread of the baker. ALAN THIS ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION FROM WHEN WE WERE CHATTING) it requires a Jew to be actively involved in making the product. The Shach requires either Jewish ownership or participation. It looks like sources over the next 200 years argue back and forth, but the halacha l’maase, the practical halacha, is not agreed upon. I have seen no modern posek rule with the Rama, however. In any case, this doesn’t help us to make permissible (according to traditional halachah) the VAST majority of non-kosher cheese. It just affects how intense the mashgiach process needs to be.
    As for the nafka mina of on whom the halacha applies, the cooker or the eater, I’ll tell you in a bit. Sun’s going down, and I need to go daven (I’ll let you guess whether it’s shacharit or mincha. I’m a bad Jew).

  33. Here is the “classic web primer” on the subject of kosher cheese…
    Part 1:
    http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/13-10%20Gevinat%20Akum%20-%20Part%20I.htm
    Part 2:
    http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/13-11%20Gevinat%20Akum%20-%20Part%20II.htm
    I’m with my man R.Tam on this issue. Of course, I often support such radical minority opinions that would bring more Jews closer to personal observance by removing the often daunting challenges of “keeping kosher” as generally practiced.

  34. This was an issue at a Solomon Schechter HS years back. Because the leadership was fine with eating hot dairy out students wanted to eat at a local non-kosher pizza shop and the concession was to have a separate “kosher” pizza slicer.
    If only they understood what was involved…

  35. 2 things:
    1) “Blessed are the cheesemakers….” sorry couldn’t resist
    2) I am so proud of my bad jew husband.

  36. What if kosher looked a little different though? What if chicken and milk was ok? What if bread, cheese (with rennet from non-meat sources) and wine were acceptable, regardless of maker? What if non-Glatt slaughter was standard, waiting time between milk and meat was an hour, and glazed and glass dishes could be used for milk or meat interchangeably? In exchange for these leniencies, what if we required hechers to ensure ethical business and animal treatment standards?

    What if most of those ideas were already perfectly kosher? Some would say they are! Why have we allowed kashruth to (still) be defined more by the later rabbinic stringencies than by the original basic ideas? I’m not suggesting a return to literal understandings of the miqra like the Karaites, but rather one unburdened by the anti-gentile intermixing gezeroth.
    I agree with everything you wrote except for the chicken with milk part, because I think that’s too significant a change to the paradigm of life/death represented by the prohibitions of milk/meat.

    You know what you’d have? You’d have a revolution. I bet that you’d triple the number of Jews keeping kosher overnight, and you’d have 3/4 of Jewery keeping kosher in a generation.

    I don’t know about those numbers, but I do believe you would have many more Conservative and Reform Jews making the choice to observe kashruth, because doing so would be far less daunting a task. Of course, you would be potentially putting many Jewish products out of business, because given a choice, do you really believe kosher consumers would continue to purchase expensive, tasteless crap that often doesn’t merit a brakha?

  37. Please note the listings for cheese on this list of Italian Jewish kosher foods for the community of Turin:
    http://www.torinoebraica.it/EN/listakasher.php
    I’ve spoken to an Italian Jewish women recently, and she recounted that the supervision of such cheese, in her understanding, involves occasional visits to the factory. She laments the lack of good kosher cheese here in the U.S.A., and her family has largely stopped eating it because it is often tasteless (or tastes bad) to those who know better.

  38. Waiting time between milk and meat is just minhag. The halacha is to wait. That’s it. How much time? That’s minhag, not halacha (which, based on your opinion, may or may not have the same status as halacha).
    Simple example. You just finished a meat meal, and you bentched. Now, you’ve just picked up a cup of coffee. You make a bracha on it. As you’re about to take a sip, you realize it has milk in it. What do you do??? You drink it. If you drink it, you’ve violated a minhag. If you don’t drink it, you’ve said a bracha levatala, which is ossur m’doraita (forbidden from the Torah). Better to be oiver on a minhag than an issur d’oraita.

  39. Nathan:
    Amazing primer! Lists all the sources I had and MANY more. Thanks for the heads up.
    The issue with holding by R’ Tam on this one, is that it’s not a recent innovation to NOT hold by him. I think that recently introduced chumras should be thrown out. We have no reason to be increasingly more machmir, except for ignorance. However, just as I oppose new innovation to the right, I oppose it to the left. If we had a long and widespread tradition of holding by R’ Tam, I could see (and embrace) the argument. We simply don’t have the long tradition to look back on and hold based on.


  40. The issue with holding by R’ Tam on this one, is that it’s not a recent innovation to NOT hold by him. I think that recently introduced chumras should be thrown out. We have no reason to be increasingly more machmir, except for ignorance. However, just as I oppose new innovation to the right, I oppose it to the left. If we had a long and widespread tradition of holding by R’ Tam, I could see (and embrace) the argument. We simply don’t have the long tradition to look back on and hold based on.

    As seen in the previous link I posted to an Italian kashruth web page, some rabbis seem to have upheld R. Tam’s position for more than 800 years 😉
    With respect to innovation in halacha, I used to be very down on the rabbinic process, because it seems to only produce new stringencies and allowed few new things. I now have the benefit of a little education and study of the history of the halachic process viewed from the historical-critical perspective. When viewed over the whole period of 2000+ years of development, I can only reasonably conclude that the process has always been one of constant change, despite the appearances to the contrary as viewed by Orthodoxy over the past few centuries. The idea that there is a static picture of a set halacha is contrary to numerous examples of reinterpretation and innovation as guided by rabbinic sages of almost all periods.
    When are the times for Shma’? It depends on changing references that occurred over time; first it’s measured by temple rituals, then later by other known things when there was no longer a temple. Which verses ARE the Shma’? That changed from two to three verses; how can that be? Why don’t we still have the water of Sota ritual? Because it was banned (that’s correct, a mitsva from the miqra, banned) because it threatened the social fabric of a society that had a new legal device, the ketuba, that controlled marital “affairs”. To whom are certain legal disputes taken for adjutication? In the miqra it clearly states “to Elohim”, but over the course of a few hundred years of text you can see it change from the priests, then to a bet din than must have a priest, and finally to a bet din with language that insults the priests. There are countless examples of such profound changes in halachic history.
    The world external to Judaism has always changed, and at our best, our sages have guided us through the impact of those changes by adjusting as necessary our understanding and/or practice of observant Judaism. That doesn’t mean (except in extraordinary circumstances) that one can rewrite the rules as one pleases whenever one pleases, which is what the more liberal Conservative rabbinate has tried to do. But, it’s always been the practice to weigh carefully the received text and it’s values with the current understanding of halacha and it’s derivation and then to sometimes change our understanding of it’s application in the context of our times. In that sense, I’m most in alignment with classic JTS figures from the 1900’s to about the 1950’s – I missed my time. Then again, the JTS greats might choke if they found out I support alioth for women 😉

  41. I’m all for overturning chumras, but what you’re talking about isn’t overturning chumras, it’s changing the basic framework of the halachah. The gemara makes frequent reference to the sadukim, who reject oral torah. So, nu, follow their halachah and have chicken and milk! You’re not talking about holding by leaniencies, but about rejecting some basics. We do, however, need to get rid of some of the chumras. Look at Gemara Berachot 5a, toward the bottom. “Greater to God is the one who toils and sweats than the one who is yirei shamayim (God-fearing).” The Maharash says that this is a reference to a talmid chacham who is asked a shaila. He could be yirei shamayim and give the machmir opinion, or he could toil and sweat over the seforim to find the lenient and position. As we see over and over again the gemara, the strength of the lenient is greater than that of the stringent.
    Yaakov, as Nathan points out, the changes I advocated for are not from outside of the halachic system. Eating chicken and milk together is not Sadducean, it’s the position of the Tanna R. Yosi HaGalili. Pat Palter (bread baked by a non-Jewish baker) is permitted according to the Shulchan Aruch, the Mishna Berurah, and the Rashba.Waiting time between meat and milk is a minhag, I simply chose the most lenient minhag. Halachically, one could wait even less time. Wine made by a non-Jew can easily be permitted according to the Meiri’s understanding Christians versus idolaters, etc.
    Even if major changes were necessary, that too is possible within the halachic system – examples from the past include the calendar, prozbol, selling chametz, allowing representational art, allowing business partnerships with non-Jews, and many others. I think that the halachic system is not done responding to the major changes of the Enlightenment or of the founding of the State of Israel. Major changes are necessary, and it’s my opinion that kashrut is part of that.

  42. I think that the enlightenment and the state of Israel are problematic in and of themselves and in most cases – the exception of feminism and gender roles being one example – are not usually good reasons for changing anything.

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