Mechitzas, mental illness, no pants, oh my
I heard at one point that mechitzas were initially a move against the orgiastic temple rituals embraced by contemporaneous groups. Whereas others were engaged is sex rights, we prefered the shmonei esrei. Perhaps this incident was a yearning to return to earlier practices:
A woman is in Israeli police custody after stripping off her clothes at the Western Wall.
Police said a woman in her 20s entered the men’s section of the Western Wall during evening and Chanukah prayers on Tuesday night, took off her clothes and lay on the floor.
According to Ma’ariv, she muttered “holy temple” and “it’s from God” — an indication that she might have been mentally disturbed. Worshipers could only look on since they were in the middle of the Shemonah Esrai prayer, which is said standing still and cannot be interrupted.
Police said the woman was sent for psychiatric evaluation and, as of Thursday, had yet to be freed from protective custody.
hadesh yameinu kekedem?
“Worshipers could only look on since they were in the middle of the Shemonah Esrai prayer”
Mmhmm.
;]
The worst part of it is — this is *exactly* what the frumme yidden have been afraid of all these centuries.
the best part of the article was clearly this gem:
“she muttered “holy temple†and “it’s from God†— an indication that she might have been mentally disturbed.”
and the thing about the Temple and orgiastic rites is bunk. mechitzhah does not appear in literature til the middle ages.
And, it is not “rights”, it’s “rites”, as in the performance of a ritual. Although, it would be nice to have the right to sex. I don’t see that as being a viable constitutional amendment here in the U.S.; maybe the CJLS will just issue an appropriate tshuva, instead.
Man, the women I met at Conservadox and Modern Orthodox minyans were never like that…not even a little.
I never manage to find the really happening minyans.
DK- read the story- you obviously need to make aliyah to meet your bashert.
Isn’t this “Jerusalem Syndrome”?
Also, will she be at Chulent next Thursday night?
rokhl–priceless
invisible_hand–
the first mention of separate seating i know of is in the Talmud Bavli discussing the practice at the temple surrounding Simchat Beit Hashoevah. Hardly Medievil given that the referenced use pre-exists the fall of the Roman Empire by hundreds of years. hit the books again buddy.
shababt shalom to all.
ZT-
That was separation for partying, not for prayer.
the first mention of separate seating i know of is in the Talmud Bavli discussing the practice at the temple surrounding Simchat Beit Hashoevah. Hardly Medievil given that the referenced use pre-exists the fall of the Roman Empire by hundreds of years
ZT and invisible_hand are both right. Masechet Sukkah 51b talks about a “tikkun gadol” (great repair) in the Temple during Simchat Beit HaShoeva, citing a beraita stating that different seating arrangements were tried: women on the inside/men on the outside, men on the inside/women on the outside, women above and men below. So yes, this is an early mention of gender-separate seating, though I’m not sure it’s the first, and as BZ notes, it’s not about gender separation in prayer.
The word “mechitza” does not appear here, although the text does say something about a “gezuztra.” (Ddepending on how frum or academic of a source you consult that might mean “boards” or “enclosure” or “balcony” or something else, and in any case what that actually meant seems fuzzy: “at first there was a division [between what and what?!] and then they enclosed it with a “gezuztra”…). AFAIK, invisible_hand is correct in saying that the concept of mechitza as gendered separation during prayer surfaces much later.
Somewhat relatedly, I just got back from Turkey, where I attended a (very) traditional Sefardi shul where there was no mechitza. There were a bunch of rows for the men, and a few rows behind them for the women. Not my preferred approach to prayer, but far better than any sort of balcony or mechitza.
zt –
last time i talked to you at JitW, you were a lot nicer.
rooftopper is totally right. i have indeed smacked the books up, as i learned an entire shiur on this in kollel.
evidence for an actual mechitzah is not … real until the middle ages. and the burden of proof is on the one trying to say it is.
the sugya in the gemara has to do with simchas beis shoeivah, but… the rabbis were not alive at the time of the Temple, so… yeah. we have no evidence of mechitzot in rabbinic period synagogues. we even have counter evidence. with records of women in key leadership positions.
see, you’re getting your argument all befuddled. the late rmedieval poskim use the sugya about simchas beis shoeivah as their asmachtah, but there’s no link between the two, besides discursive maneuvering.
historical methodology… ah it’s so important, yet so rarely practiced.
what we need to do is get a big group of people to go and do this together, possibly chanting “Holy Temple– It’s from G-d.” Yeah.
Invisible-hand and Rooftopper are indeed correct here.
ZT– yeah, that’s the conventional wisdom among people who use mechitzot. I only learned otherwise my freshman year of college, when I had an argument with a friend about needing a mechitza at informal minyanim, and hit the books, and came up with centuries of. . . nothing. I actually found nothing specific to prayer (and really, a crazy party and shul aren’t all that comparable in terms of hook-up potential) till LATER than the middle ages, but I’m open to the possibility of there being a medieval source I overlooked.
And ? Let’s keep this all in good spirits, please.
Maybe all she ate was olives, nothing but olives, mountains of olives…
About twenty years ago, a book came out – I can’t remember the name – in which the author, a woman, argued that the mechitza was a later rabbinic invention. I do remember that she quoted from a letter by one of the early church fathers, in which he admonished the faithful not to indulge in mixed seating, “as is the custom of the Jews”, or something to that effect.
Yosef Leib – I think your home sparked that long discussion on nudity on shabbat. I don’t know you, but do you have a thing for exhibitionism? There is a braita in the 3rd Perek of shabbat which discusses the merit of showing of one’s brit mila…