Gaza pops
Whoa, missed this yesterday! Fed up with Israel’s siege, Gazans blew up 2/3 of the 7-mile wall between Gaza and Egypt, and flooded over the border in the tens of thousands to buy water, milk, wheat, cigarettes, and medical supplies. I suppose this is what happens when you starve a million people, yes?
Photos courtesy of AP and Reuters.
HAHAHA…. i’m really sure that the people who blew the wall up did it in order to “buy water, milk, wheat, cigarettes, and medical supplies”… not in order to bring in more material for killing jews. that couldn’t have had anything to do with it…
on another note – this is a war, in a war you do not supply your enemy with gas, electricity, water etc!
That is one pathetic wall. I coulda knocked that down with a john deere and a snow shovel
I suppose this is what happens when you bombard and murder an innocent town of civilians, yes?
Liur and incorrect:
Yep, one million terrorists, every one of ’em. Good thing no kids live in Gaza or senior citizens. And thank the Lord that the siege seems to be working — no more rockets!
kung fu jew – the problem with israel is people with your views – that defeatism is the only reason israel is still in a war with the arabs and hasn’t crushed them. i honestly believe that people with those views have the blood of thousands of jews on their hands
Because we all know, all that’s holding Israel back from defeating the Ay-rabs is them leftists, and not, say, the SHEER IMPOSSIBILITY OF DOING SO.
BTW, you didn’t see his point. Let me ask you this: Has the siege and starvation of Gaza stopped the rocket attacks?
this place is starting to look like the haaretz talkback!
Lior, what is it that you propose as an alternative to the “defeatist” policy of trying to make peace with the Palestinians? Genocide? Forcibly relocating them all to Siberia? Seriously, how do you “crush” a group of people numbering in the millions and not destroy everything Judaism stands for in the process?
And now I’ll play BZ’s game of multiple political personalities and trade sides:
As for whether “this is what happens when you starve a million people,” I’m not so sure. The reports I’ve read say that Hamas has been planning to blow up the wall for months, and that the blockade was the perfect opportunity for them to maximize the propaganda value of doing it. It’s not the desperate act of starving people, but the cynical act of an organized group of militants seeking to position themselves internationally as saviors rather than the terrorists they are.
Meanwhile, if you read more about why people are actually crossing, it’s not so much to buy food and medicine. The people quoted in the initial NYT story, for example, were a woman going to see a friend in Egyptian Rafah who she hadn’t seen in a long time and a guy buying a bunch of cement on the cheap so he could build a house and get married. Being an avid visitor of friends and a bit of a cheapskate myself, I can empathize with both of them. Yet neither of these people seems to be starving…
People, Gaza tops the world’s list of densest, poorest places. 10.6K people per mile living on less than a dollar a day. Look it up. There is a reason Hamas and extremism have a hold on Gaza and not the West Bank!
themicah, you’re basing your evaluation of whether or not people are starving off the kinds of interviews in an article? Nevermind the warnings from the UN for the past two weeks? Gaza is impoverished! It’s not a secret.
Liur — so what’s the answer? More Gaza incursions? Either because it’s impossible or because the IDF is inept, no re-occupations of the Gaza Strip have EVER stopped rocket attacks. EVER. There have been rocket attacks consistently since before the Disengagement. So what’s the answer? What’s the alternative? I want to see a straightforward damn answer about what the hell to do with the occupation other than continue to sit on it! All I hear from you and the right is racist bullshit about how all Arabs are killers. But that’s not a political platform, it’s helplessness. Rockets are falling on Sderot, our soldiers are still in their custody, Israel continues to lose face to the world court of opinion, and you want to try to the same shit that’s not worked for the past 10 years and longer. You have run out of ideas and that is why Olmert is negotiating. But I’d like to hear your proposal. What is Israel supposed to do with Gaza?
“But I’d like to hear your proposal. What is Israel supposed to do with Gaza?”
I’ll take this. Basically nothing, ot better yet, continue what Israel is doing right now. Cut off the fuel and they’ll just run over to Egypt. With a little Israeli perseverence, they’ll even stay there.
Frankly, I don’t understand why everyone is so upset about the wall being blown up. Sure some will smuggle weapons but who cares? Only the kassams get over the wall to Israel. And they already have plenty of that.
formermuslim — and the soldier in Gaza? Let him be taken to Egypt with this magical exodus?
Kung Fu Jew,
What is your solution? Israel is trying to carry on with this war of attrition against Hamas in a manner that fits with Jewish and Western values. It hasn’t done so perfectly, but I think they’ve done ok, considering…
So, what is your answer? Negotiations with Hamas, which by its nature cannot make any peace treaty with Israel? Expanding the size of Gaza to include parts of the Sinai, through agreement with Egypt? Expelling the Palestinians? …What is your answer?
There are NO good solutions, that is our delimna today.
“There is a reason Hamas and extremism have a hold on Gaza and not the West Bank!” Obviously, the Israeli army took complete control of the West Bank in the spring of 2002, and it has not done so in Gaza. Do you not remember the situation in the West Bank between 2000-2002?
What is your answer? Please let us know so that we can move on with a somewhat normal life, without rockets falling on our heads and bombs blowing up on our buses? Please, what is the answer?
“formermuslim — and the soldier in Gaza? Let him be taken to Egypt with this magical exodus?”
As always timing is everything. My suggestion should have been implemented decades ago but let’s stop daydreaming and deal with the current reality. The answer is simple. Make the damn exchange with hamas for their prisoners and then kick them and the rest of the palestinians over to Egypt.
Kung Fu Jew,
Seriously, let’s hear your solution. You insisted that your opponents come up with a solution, but you posted this to begin with. So answer the question: How should Israel stop the daily crimes against humanity occurring in Sderot? (I’m taking a huge leap here by assuming you consider the rockets falling on Sderot to be war crimes.)
First of all, kung fu jew – what is your solution? throw the jews into the sea? that sounds in line with your judgements.
Secondly – yes, more incursions – but not many – just one big one, that once and for all shows Israel’s force like it hasn’t been shown since 1967. you’re right, nothing has stopped the rocket attacks “since before the disengagement” – what does that tell you about the disengagement? that maybe, just maybe St. Ariel Sharon (the second Israeli saint after St. Rabin) did something wrong? that maybe, just maybe israel was better off not giving terrorists a huge gift? And I’ll tell you what I think – a straightforward answer (unlike your goddamn anti-Israel evasions) – I want to maintain the occupation, maintain harshly, break bones, until they realize you don’t fuckin’ mess with Israel, the Jewish blood is not cheap!! And I am not the racist here – I couldn’t care less if chechens were the ones trying to kill Jews – it’s that they’re murderers!!
you, kung fu jew, are the racist. you deny jews the right to self determination. plain and simple. because ending the occupation (of the west bank and gaza) will do nothing but harm Israel and encourage the arab world to push for what they really see as the occupation – the zionist entity. and if you don’t see that – you’re blind. take your pick – racist or blind.
and one more thing – olmert is not negotiating. that inept, corrupt, fool is capitulating. no less. he is the worst prime minister this country has ever seen.
so what is your answer?????
ìéà åø writes:
they’re murderers!!
Who’s “they”? Most of the actual murderers (defined as people who have murdered people) are themselves dead.
B to the Z,
That’s not really true. If you’re referring to suicide murderers, that’s only true for the actual trigger-puller. It’s not true for the indoctrinator, the recruiter, the bomb maker and the bomb fitter. Which isn’t to say that all Palestinians are murderers — although it is true that Gaza used its democracy to elect a government sworn to the violent destruction of a sovereign state. From that perspective, a loose definition of “murderers” could be said to apply.
a society that does not rise up against itself in horror at the murder committed in the name of its liberty is a murderous society as a whole.
furthermore, the only purpose of any government is safeguard the personal security of its citizens – even if it is at the expense of others.
so, BZ – do you have a solution or are just like kung fu jew – criticizing israel from your cushy armchair in the states without actually putting your money where your mouth is??
to quote shlomo avineri recently – “ALL OF US in Israel welcome the serious and deep concern Jews all over the world have for the Jewish state. We recognize how meaningful it is for the future of all Jews. Your voice should be heard; but the ultimate decisions – whether to go to war or make peace, whether to pay the price, for war as well as peace – are for the sovereign body of the country’s citizens to make.”
so, until you show up, spend some of the best years of your life in uniform, and contribute something to israel other criticizing those acts that serve to protect the JEWS and the JEWISH state – back off!!
For a rather alternative view consider Melanie Phillips’s observations:
Israel may well be the first country in (at least) Western history to send vital supplies to a neighboring territory which is attacking it.
You actually believe that the Egypt-Gaza border destruction took place because of a popular uprising of anger “fed up with Israel’s siege”? Oh brother…
Apparently the “starving” masses of Gaza had a few other things on their minds besides just “milk” and Excedrin.
The starving Gazans….The aggressive Zionists….The virtuous desperation of Hamas….!
The gullibility is just precious.
Jonathan: Obviously, the Israeli army took complete control of the West Bank That’s not true because until the disengagement there were 1,000 settlers living in the center of Gaza, which took far more soldiers to protect them. Gaza was the crown jewel of costly occupation, which is why even Sharon gave it up.
EV: I think both populaces, after 40 years of fighting and dying, are realizing that it’s not possible to kick the other’s ass into submission. In Hamas and in people like Liur, I see similar phenomena of segments of both societies that that aren’t adjusting well to the loss of their dream — be it Greater Israel or a Palestinian state in the shape of Israel. Even the moderates are not totally ready for the Big Compromise yet, and Annapolis is ill-timed and maybe premature. That being said, negotiating is the only way that tensions between Israel and Arab countries have ever been mitigated.
Just to remind everyone, Israel negotiated with Egypt, Jordan, and the PLO — all committed to Israel’s destruction. And Egypt and Jordan killed more Israelis than the PLO, mind you. That precedent was set a long time ago, it’s good to acknowledge it’s a stalling tactic, not an ironclad policy. Exceptions always seem to be made.
I want Israel to negotiate with Hamas. It should be tomorrow, but I don’t think it will. I wonder if this Gaza event will force some new thoughts. One must negotiate with the enemy you have, not the enemy you’d like to have. Do we want our hostages back? Do we want the rockets to stop?
And negotiations is not giving up on security. As Rabin said (and I say this because it’s true, not because he’s any saint) “We’ll fight terror as if there aren’t negotiations and we’ll negotiate as if there isn’t terror.” The single-track military policy is (for one) failing, but more importantly it’s putting the eggs in one basket. Those eggs happen to be Israeli soldiers’ lives and those of the citizens of Sderot. Wouldn’t you be doing everything possible to save lives? I would.
Liur: I’ve not heard anything but rhetoric out of you. But here we go.
what is your solution? throw the jews into the sea?
Just the fundamentalist ones. They’ve lost the covenant.
Secondly – yes, more incursions – but not many – just one big one, that once and for all shows Israel’s force like it hasn’t been shown since 1967.
In ’67, Israel destroyed military units poised for use. Gaza is 1.5 million of the region’s poorest people, two-thirds of whom are under the age of 18. This strikes me as remarkably dishonorable, to put it mildly.
you’re right, nothing has stopped the rocket attacks “since before the disengagement†– what does that tell you about the disengagement? that maybe, just maybe St. Ariel Sharon (the second Israeli saint after St. Rabin) did something wrong? that maybe, just maybe israel was better off not giving terrorists a huge gift?
I agree! Instead of offering Gaza to the moderates through bilaterial talks and thereby strengthening the very idea that negotiations work among people who might really need to know that it does, Sharon tossed out the biggest chance to reward dialogue.
And I’ll tell you what I think – a straightforward answer (unlike your goddamn anti-Israel evasions) – I want to maintain the occupation, maintain harshly, break bones, until they realize you don’t fuckin’ mess with Israel, the Jewish blood is not cheap!! And I am not the racist here – I couldn’t care less if chechens were the ones trying to kill Jews – it’s that they’re murderers!!
You’re not? I think preference for one’s own race still counts.
you, kung fu jew, are the racist. you deny jews the right to self determination. plain and simple. because ending the occupation (of the west bank and gaza) will do nothing but harm Israel and encourage the arab world to push for what they really see as the occupation – the zionist entity.
and if you don’t see that – you’re blind. take your pick – racist or blind.
I’ll pass, thanks.
and one more thing – olmert is not negotiating. that inept, corrupt, fool is capitulating. no less. he is the worst prime minister this country has ever seen.
Nobody’s thrown the guy out of power yet, his coalition still proceeds with negotiations.
so what is your answer?????
Read above.
a society that does not rise up against itself in horror at the murder committed in the name of its liberty is a murderous society as a whole.
I’m glad you raised this, because it’s why I’m taking the time to point out to others how odiously murderous you are. You’re advocating killing swaths of a huge population — horrifying even if it was small populations. The options are (a) the status quo, (b) negotiations, or (c) you. We don’t know how far negotiations will get us right now. But the status quo and massacres aren’t options.
furthermore, the only purpose of any government is safeguard the personal security of its citizens – even if it is at the expense of others.
This I accept only within the bounds of the Geneva Convention. There is a limit.
so, BZ – do you have a solution or are just like kung fu jew – criticizing israel from your cushy armchair in the states without actually putting your money where your mouth is??
I am employed by Israeli soldiers to criticize Israeli military policy, actually. They presently pay my bills. They’ve put their money where my mouth is.
to quote shlomo avineri recently – “ALL OF US in Israel welcome the serious and deep concern Jews all over the world have for the Jewish state. We recognize how meaningful it is for the future of all Jews. Your voice should be heard; but the ultimate decisions – whether to go to war or make peace, whether to pay the price, for war as well as peace – are for the sovereign body of the country’s citizens to make.â€
I won’t speak for BZ, but this is a tired argument. America controls and enables all of Israel’s freedom to do this or that in the Middle East. I make an indirect impact on Israel by voting or not voting, by speaking up or not speaking up. It’s a globalized world out there.
Secondly, I say nothing that hasn’t already been said in Israel, by Israelis, so there’s no reasonable objection to my parroting them.
so, until you show up, spend some of the best years of your life in uniform, and contribute something to israel other criticizing those acts that serve to protect the JEWS and the JEWISH state – back off!!
No.
None of us will back off. You’re welcome to keep reading us all here, because I’m going to keep writing and I’m going to keep working. I think the only proper response to that comment thread is a renewed commitment to not let people like you have their way.
Lastly, you’ve crossed the line into ad hominem attacks and outright calls for violence, which will get you banned from here. I shouldn’t even be responding to you. But the moment is too instructional —
— People, this is the right wing. This is the other side. This is acceptable political discourse on the right and far right. These people are loud and they’re not going to fade away. As any peace process becomes viable, they will fight harder and harder to forestall everything. We can’t let them.
Kung Fu Jew,
Please answer my questions specifically, as I’m trying to have a sober discussion with you.
I think we can agree that there are no saints in the Middle East, not the least the Israelis…
“That’s not true because until the disengagement there were 1,000 settlers living in the center of Gaza, which took far more soldiers to protect them. Gaza was the crown jewel of costly occupation, which is why even Sharon gave it up.”
You had stated that the situation in the West Bank was relatively quiet compared to that in Gaza, and I want to know how you account for the fact that between 2000-2002(when the IDF retook the West Bank by force) there was a state of chaos in the West Bank and literally thousans of suicide bombers attempted to set off bombs on a daily basis? Israel has not maintained a military occupation (ie, the IDF patroling every meter of Gaza) since July 1994. I want to know how you came to the conclusion that what has occurred in Gaza since August 2005 would not be replicated if the IDF were to unilaterally withdrawal from the West Bank.
You are in favor of negotiations with the Palestinians. If you are speaking of Fatah and the West Bank, ok I undertand.
But how do you expect Israel to negotiate with Hamas in Gaza, when Hamas cannot negotiate a peace treaty with Israel? This isn’t a nationalist movement like the PLO, or the Eygptian dictator. This is a Sunni Muslim organization which has been formed to create a Muslim calipath in all of “greater Palestine.” Hamas explicitly states that they will never sign a peace treaty with Israel. How do you expect Israel to negotiate with them?
I didn’t see any easy answers, other than to continue with this war of attrition, and pray for better days in the next generation.
What is the easy answer, please tell me so that we can have a semi-decent existence, without rockets and bombs?
Why does it seem that the writers on this site are only concerned when Palestinians are killed? They suffer, but so do we. Are Jews/Israelis less human? Is it better that rockets should fall on Sderot than Gaza? Doesn’t our suffering count too?
so, BZ – do you have a solution or are just like kung fu jew – criticizing israel from your cushy armchair in the states without actually putting your money where your mouth is??
My cushy armchair is in Jerusalem.
Which isn’t to say that all Palestinians are murderers — although it is true that Gaza used its democracy to elect a government sworn to the violent destruction of a sovereign state. From that perspective, a loose definition of “murderers†could be said to apply.
As an American citizen, I wouldn’t want to be judged by that standard.
Wow, most of these comments are alarmingly nasty. I miss the previous Jewschool commenters who were actually smart and level-headed.
Kudos for the post, KFJ, and good luck with the insipid comments.
PS: no srsly, watz ur solushion?!11 theyr terrorzists!!1
ìéà åø writes:
and one more thing – olmert is not negotiating. that inept, corrupt, fool is capitulating. no less. he is the worst prime minister this country has ever seen.
and also writes:
the ultimate decisions – whether to go to war or make peace, whether to pay the price, for war as well as peace – are for the sovereign body of the country’s citizens to make.
Nu? The sovereign body of Israel’s citizens elected Olmert, so by your own logic, who are you to question what he’s doing?
÷ùéà ìéà åø à ìéà åø.
ìéà åø writes:
I want to maintain the occupation, maintain harshly, break bones, until they realize you don’t fuckin’ mess with Israel, the Jewish blood is not cheap!!
Now suppose this plan is a smashing success, and the Palestinians wake up one day and say “We surrender, yours is bigger than ours, we’ll never attack Israel again.” What next?
so, BZ – do you have a solution
The medium-term plan:
* First and foremost, economic self-sufficiency for Gaza and the West Bank, including their own power grids and everything else, so that Palestinians are not dependent on Israel.
* Independent Palestinian state(s) in the West Bank and Gaza, with borders to be determined by international agreement.
* Israeli citizens living in the West Bank can either return to Israel or sign a waiver recognizing that if they stay, Israel is not responsible for their protection and they are subject to Palestinian law.
* Legal settlers (i.e. legal under Israeli law at the time they moved there, regardless of whether the law was right or wrong) should be compensated; illegal settlers should be prosecuted.
* East Jerusalem residents can choose Israeli or Palestinian citizenship, but not both.
* Build the biggest fucking wall ever between Israel and the Palestinian state(s), along the internationally agreed border, so that no one and nothing can pass through in either direction (to get from Kfar Saba to Kalkilya, you’ll have to go through Jordan), until Israel and the Palestinian state(s) are ready for a peace agreement between sovereign states.
* Archaeologists dig up the Temple Mount and the Kotel Plaza.
* Israel, Egypt, and Jordan cooperate actively on regional security, along with an international peacekeeping force.
This really isn’t so left-wing.
Tell it like it is, KFJ (and BZ).
On another note, it seems Jewschool has gotten itself a nice dedicated right wing “crush Palestine” audience. Funny how they never have what to say except on this topic, which means they must subscribe to this blog only to get their reactionary $.02 in whenever Israel/Palestine is raised. Good use of your time, guys.
Why are the “Leftists” here ignoring my posts? Please answer my questions.
IB– “Rightists” are responding because it seems that, at least on the Israeli-Palestinian subject, the “Leftists” on this
blog seem to be speaking from ignorance.
For instance, why has nobody explained to me why KFJ (and I’m assuming you too) implies that Israel is very much contributing to the problems in Gaza because it won’t negotiate with Hamas, when Hamas explicitly states that it is a Sunni Muslim organization dedicated to creating an Islamic state on all of the land between the river and the sea? They clearly state this all of the time. Please explain how Hamas is lying. If none of the “Leftists” here can at least attempt to explain this to me, I will assume that they must hold the racist idea that the Palestinians are liars, or that they will relinquish their dignity in order to satisfy some “Leftist” Jews’ belief in world peace.
I live in Israel, and I would love to know how we can get along without rockets falling on our heads and bombs blowing up on our buses.
Jonathan, I believe I’ve already explained a lot. If you’re not paying attention to Hamas’ multiple elements — those willing to negotiate, others dedicated to violence — then there is some extra context you’re missing. Hamas has stated many times that they’re willing to talk, which is unpleasing to the extremists, but how do you punish terrorism? Obviously you can’t kill it away, because it’s not working. You punish terrorism by rewarding pragmatism.
Kung Fu Ju–
Thank you for responding to me. If you reward pragmatism by dealing with Fatah, then I understand.
I have no clue where you are getting the idea that any elements of Hamas are willing to sign a peace treaty with Israel. There are some elements willing to talk in order to obtain prisoner releases, or even a Hudna. Where is the element of Hamas willing to accept a partition of the land?
If Israeli governments have been willing, at least ostensibly, to speak with the PLO (Fatah) and have stated explicitly the need to partition the land, why wouldn’t they want to deal with Hamas if Hamas were to agree to partition? Indeed, Israel has already removed all Jews from Gaza and has re-deployed the army out of the area as well.
The “extremists” in the Israeli government?: Olmert, who was the most vocal advocate in the Likud of partition; Barak, the man who went to Camp David and approved of the Taba talks; even the Shas party, which supported the Oslo Accords? Why would they want situation in Gaza to continue as it is?
Personally, I find it racist against Palestinians to imply that they are lying to us, and to themselves. Until I start hearing statements from Hamas, the Moslim Brotherhood, et al., that they have undergone a radical change in their Sunni Muslim philosophy, I will take them at their word–the fact that they have expelled Fatah’s leadership from Gaza and have hailed a rain of rockets on Sderot AFTER the army withdrew from Gaza tends to give me doubt that they are lying.
Ok, thank you for responding to me.