Global, Israel, Politics

Outrage in Gaza: No More Apologies

gaza
(picture by Hatem Omar/Maan Images)
The news today out of Israel and Gaza makes me just sick to my stomach.
I know, I can already hear the responses: every nation has a responsibility to ensure the safety of its citizens. If the Qassams stopped, Israel wouldn’t be forced to take military action. Hamas also bears responsibility for this tragic situation…
I could answer each and every one of these claims in turn, but I’m ready to stop this perverse game of rhetorical ping-pong. I don’t buy the rationalizations any more. I’m so tired of the apologetics. How on earth will squeezing the life out of Gaza, not to mention bombing the living hell out of it, ensure the safety of Israeli citizens?
We good liberal Jews are ready to protest oppression and human-rights abuse anywhere in the world, but are all too willing to give Israel a pass. It’s a fascinating double-standard, and one I understand all too well. I understand it because I’ve been just as responsible as anyone else for perpetrating it.
So no more rationalizations. What Israel has been doing to the people of Gaza is an outrage. It has has brought neither safety nor security to the people of Israel and it has wrought nothing but misery and tragedy upon the people of Gaza.
There, I’ve said it. Now what do I do?

46 thoughts on “Outrage in Gaza: No More Apologies

  1. Yep.
    I actually don’t feel like we’re doing all we can against the many human rights abuses out there even outside of Israel/Palestine. As an American Jew I’m feeling right now like the best thing I and other American Jews can do is call for addressing human rights abuses and colonization issues/Native American rights here in the US, and then work to push for Palestinian voices to be heard. I don’t agree with the idea that as a Jew I automatically have a say in what happens to Israel, as I believe that a piece of land that I am defined on having greater rights to than others who have actually lived there simply by merit of my birth is criminal–it’s like a culture-wide princess fable, where the child living in poverty and suffering is discovered to be royalty and therefore gets out of it, but the power dynamic by which *other people* are in poverty goes ignored and unchallenged.
    One of the critical problems I’m seeing is that the voices being heard on the Left are most often Jewish voices condemning Israel’s behavior, which is important, but it continues to take precedence over Palestinian voices–meaning that the Palestinian voices that are most heard are those that are most easily given airtime–the most violent and often the specifically anti-Semitic voices that Zionists are listening to and reacting to, and using in anti-Palestinian propaganda. How can we aid in more Palestinian voices being heard, and being heard as a variety of legitimate voices with valid, complicated experiences?
    Most importantly, I’m frustrated with seeing Jewish groups the world over call Israel/Palestine issues forbidden conversation topics because of how inflammatory the issues are. If we can’t talk about them (or, as more accurate in what I’ve experienced, can mention pro-Israel issues and then tell everyone to move on, or challenge Israel’s behavior and suggest that Palestinians have rights too, and get slammed as self-hating and then tell everyone to move on), how can we address these issues?
    I’m looking excitedly at Friends of the Earth – Middle East, which is a coalition of Israeli, Palestinian, Jordanian and Egyptian environmentalists working on addressing the environmental issues in that area with a political consciousness: I think this is an excellent way for people to work together on the common needs of the area and its people without the focus being on national boundaries and protection of self from other *people*, and I think that such changes in priorities can be helpful in other organizing situations as well.
    So that was kinda disorganized, but, yes. There are serious issues going on.

  2. Probably you won’t like what I have to say.
    1. Invade.
    2. Pervade.
    3. Build.
    We can blame ourselves or we can blame them, or we can do what we should have done in 67 – invade it, build it up with roads, social services, infrastructure, etc. And then hand over the keys, perhaps after letting it win a pro-forma war of independence. But the only solution is to build a Gaza strong enough that it does not have to rely on subsidies from other Arab nations. Because those subsidies, and the strings that come attached to them, are what’s killing everyone on both sides of the border.

  3. “Sderot” is the new non-argument of the unthinking Israel apologists.
    I only heard about this Motzaei Shabbat, so I was wondering WTF Hamas did precisely to incur this action, and now of all times. My guess is Tzipi’s trying to pull a Peres and bomb the shitload out of a bunch of Arabs just so she could flex some military muscle in time for the election. It’ll work as well as it did for Peres.

  4. Israel has broken my heart. I share your point of view. Defensible borders are a moving target. The only real defensible border is one that can be defended morally. There is no longer idealism in Israeli behavior, only nationalism. At what price…to what end. American Jewish institutions need to re-examine what they ask us to support.

  5. Rich, perhaps that may have worked for Germany and Japan, but keep in mind that one of the first things that the Palestinians in Gaza did after disengagement was to burn down the infrastructure left by the settlers. (Which is probably the most boneheaded move ever done by ANY group taking over a pre-existing territory.)

  6. What happened is Hamas ended the so-called ceasefire a day before it was set to expire by launching dozens of missiles against Israeli towns.
    Hamas did not expect israel to massively retaliate.
    Hamas was wrong.
    Unless you can find some justification for launching missiles indiscriminately against civilian targets, you need to allow Israel to defend itself and its citizens in the best way possible.

  7. ‘We good liberal Jews are ready to protest oppression and human-rights abuse anywhere in the world’
    WTF is that rotten world your business, anyway? Hamas declared a war to Israel this thursday (“operation oil stain” – do some google), now Israel kicks asses. And all of those killed get instant paradise, something they’ve been praying for all their lives. Don’t you respect religious beliefs and prayers of other people? Shame on you!

  8. Is this the best way possible, though? Will this ensure security for Israel? Has it ever in the past? If so, why do the Qassams keep falling?
    Mind you, I don’t have a solution myself – well, yes I do, several, but none of them seem politically possible – they either involve meaningful coalitions with various Arab states, or expulsion or genocide.

  9. Well, what do you suggest that Israel do instead? I don’t think that you can negotiate with Hamas. I think that it is an organization with a Nazi-like hatred for all Jews everywhere. I think this hatred extends far beyond the occupation or any specific actions of the Israeli government. Hamas does not want an end to the occupation, it wants an end to Israel’s existence as a Jewish state.

  10. Ahh, finally my daily dose of moral posturing has arrived. Included in every dose is of course a total lack of any alternatives mentioned. Frankly I’m getting sick of it. And I’m not alone. Just crawl up in a corner and shout ” woe is me”. You’re more useful that way.

  11. Susan, if you were responding to me: I admit I have no (practical) solution. Doing nothing will not improve the situation. But neither will this, and based on past events is more likely to make things worse. I suspect this course of action was undertaken fr some combination of two motives: for domestic consumption, to shore up Livni’s right flank; and as an application of the cliché “when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail”.

  12. Orde: Shame, shame, shame. “Instant paradise” THIS.
    FM, unless you’re content to troll and ridicule, I would like to explain the futility of the situation. Israel knows that the only choices are to utterly destroy Hamas (killing too many innocents in the process) or become its whipping boy. Of course, there are safer methods to accomplish the former, but it’s not likely that this government will have the intelligence and cunning to pull it off. Alternatives? There are plently, but it seems Israel is content on not picking anything other than MOAR FIAR.

  13. B.BarNavi, I agree with you, long term planning doesn’t seem to be the Israeli government’s strong side.
    Unfortunately the same intellectual laziness seems to be the cause of Shalom Rav’s completely USELESS lament. Nobody needs a compendium of Jewish liberal soundbites every time something disagreeable happens in the world.

  14. “But neither will this, and based on past events is more likely to make things worse.”
    Are we forgetting Operation Defensive Shield, which–together with the wall/fence and the targeted assasisations– ended the suicide war?
    Have we forgotten what things were like from Sept. 2000-March 2002, when we were told, ad nauseam, that military force would never work?
    Obviously, though, the circumstances here are not parallel.
    The realistic solution, btw, should involve increasing the size of Gaza, which can be tripled by expanding its borders southward into the Sinai.

  15. I don’t like seeing people terrorised, killed or physically threatened, whatever a persons reasoning, it just doesn’t work. There are clever people in the area, can’t they use their brains rather than their brawn. Maybe I’m not macho enough for these angry people,and they will say you haven’t got these rockets bombing your children, or people taking the land you think is your’s by history and you would react the same in their situation. Maybe they’re right and according to that logic no one has an opinion apart from the people involved. Whatever, if you think that then ignore me. I would never force you to react my way. But personally I think the journalist who threw his shoes at George Bush did a lot more politically than a rocket or a suicide attack or bombing.
    I think that we should think about that.
    To press a button to kill people when you don’t know them or see them, as in bombing/rockets, is and always will be to me a cowardly act even if you’re ordered to do it,(listen up George Bush, Ben Laden and other people that justify killing with simplistic arguments).Does any religion really justify this impersonal killing?
    My thoughts for the Israelis was bomb them with shoes to show then what you think of their cowardly rocket attacks.I know it’s a comical idea and there’s probably reasoning against it, but I bet there are many other micro ideas are out there that will make people think twice about rockets/bombing that doesn’t involve this killing. I hope my comments don’t offend anyone who is involved but wish that maybe I can persuade just one person to think even harder before they kill.
    As I said earlier I am not in the area, so can have no real understanding of the pain and distress of the people in the area and wish to apologise if my thoughts insult anyone, and if you think that my uninformed thoughts could in any way inflame the situation then please don’t publish.

  16. B. BarNavi, one of the things about the Marshall Plan was that it took a generation to execute. All that training and building did not just happen in a few years. Pass a generation of Palestinian kids through a school system that does not teach them to hate all things Jewish, and you will have a populace ready to assume control of the infrastructure Israel leaves behind without destroying it.

  17. Just wanted to point one thing out:
    Hamas stated pretty clearly that it wasn’t going to reinstate any kind of ceasefire because it would have great public support if it shelled Israel instead.
    Israel’s response may be out of proportion, but it’s not like Hamas didn’t want this conflict to begin with.

  18. Let us not forget that Hamas’ control over Gaza owes a great deal to the street violence they unleashed against any and all potential political rivals within Palestinian society. To what extent can they reasonably be said to be representing the Gazans when Gazans aren’t free to choose an alternative?
    Hamas did have the choice to not fire rockets (however inaccurate) and Israel had a choice to not respond. Are Hamas rockets more or less morally defensible because they cannot be aimed with accuracy? Some say that the Israeli response is “disproportionate” but what does that mean? Do we really know what was being targeted? How many casualties there were? How many were “collateral damage”? How accurate are the reports that are causing our ill-ease (let’s not forget the report of the “Jenin Massacre” that turned out not to have been a massacre at all, but BBC propaganda.)
    Bottom line, most of the regular readers here appear to be Americans, and as such, we don’t help anyone by passing simplistic judgments against one side and for the other. The best thing we can do as Americans is encourage our government to act as a broker for a ceasefire and hope that Israelis and Palestinians can work these problems out for themselves.

  19. I share your outrage Shalom. There is absolutely no justification for this latest Israeli aggression in Gaza. None. No reasonable person attempts to justify the firing of Qassam rockets into Israel, so how can one POSSIBLY justify the bombing of civilian structures as school children are being let out of school? How?
    As Ali Abunimah wrote, regarding the hypocrisy of the Israeli justification for this latest action in Gaza:
    “There has never been a single rocket fired at Israel from the West Bank. And yet during the period of the so-called truce in the West Bank, Israel continued extrajudicial executions, continued to confiscate Palestinian land, continued to demolish Palestinians homes, continued to kidnap Palestinians and imprison them. Israeli settlers engaged in regular pogroms and rampages, attacking Palestinians and destroying their property.
    What was the excuse for that? Israel never needed the excuse of rockets to continue its systematic violence against Palestinians.”
    As far as Gaza is concerned,apologists are making it sound like Israel had been a non-actor in Gaza for some time, right until the latest rounds of Qassam attacks. This is of course utter BS. Israel has made life virtually unlivable in Gaza since June of 2007 by virtue of the brutal economic blockade and repeated military incursions. Israeli control of Gazan life is indisputable, and it is indefensible in my opinion. Israel it seems has operated under the rule that if coercion (economic, physical) does not work, all out war is the only option. The level of collective punishment involved here is staggering. The orders to block essential items coming into Gaza is every bit as vile as the orders to send F-16s there with missiles.
    I’ve been reading about Gaza for two straight days from every source I can find. I’m at a loss. I’m furious.

  20. I will not put in my two cents as to whether the latest action by Israel is the right approach or not. It is a far more complicated matter than would appear from many of the comments here.
    In the end, it is clear that there will be some sort of cease fire. Each side is jockeying for the terms it seeks. It will come at a high price.
    The suffering in Gaza was due, in large measure, to Israeli policies. But it was (is) also due to the policies of, Egypt, PA Authority, Western countries, Muslim countries, and much of it is self inflicted.
    But the above statement by Alon is pathetic.: “so how can one POSSIBLY justify the bombing of civilian structures as school children are being let out of school? How?”
    The initial wave of bombings occurred at 11:30AM on Saturday. Schools were closed.
    Then came more attacks – many of them at night. The targets are carefully selected to minimize civilian casualties. Where Hamas stores weapons in civilian buildings-the army has warned, before the attack, that those inside should get out. So exactly which schools were bombed as kids were getting out? Please (unless your aim is to quote propaganda) use facts to back your views and not fiction. There are enough facts to support many of your conclusions. You do an injustice when you spout propaganda and nonsense.
    Israel’s intent is to do serious damage. But if the intent were a masacure of civilians-then why were 40 trucks of humaintaian aid sent in during a 2 hour lull in the bombing? Or shall we call it just a PR stunt?
    Lets have a civil discussion but let us not turn to fantasy to justify our views.

  21. Meri makes a good point about the targets. Even though there is a lot of blame to go around, every report I’ve read indicates that the targets of Israeli bombings are legitimate targets under international law: i.e. targets that have a clear military value. Even though a word like “disproportionate” seems to some a rational judgement (after all, it speaks to ratios), it does not necessarily speak truthfully, soberly, or accurately.
    Of course, corpses are just as viscerally horrifying whether the dead was a legitimate target, innocent collateral damage, or the victim of a war-crime, and we don’t want bombings whether they are proportionate or disproportionate to the events that inspire them, or to the intended outcomes.

  22. No people should live under bombing and rocket fire. Not in Sderot, not in Ashkelon and not in Gaza. NO BODY! It was shameful when Hamas launched 60 qassams, compltely unwarranted and shameful. But 230 deaths is not “minimizing civilian casualties”, 780 injuries is not “minimizing civilian casualties”. I fear what reprisals will come of this military action. 230 deaths in one day is an insane loss for a population, a horrifying loss of life. We should all be lamenting loss of life, death transcends politics. Death transcends politics, done. No peace will come of this, and this seems to be another example that Israel, JUST LIKE THE PALESTINIAN TERROR ORGANIZATIONS (not in exception to them) does not want peace. Israelis want peace, Palestinians want peace. Their armed forces do not, when peace comes, armies have little to do. Power to the people, the people can bring peace, armies can only bring destruction and death. Both sides, BOTH SIDES, are horribly wrong. That doesn’t justify what was done, death needs to transcend politics, or peace will not be achieved.

  23. I share your outrage Shalom. There is absolutely no justification for this latest Israeli aggression in Gaza. None. No reasonable person attempts to justify the firing of Qassam rockets into Israel, so how can one POSSIBLY justify the bombing of civilian structures as school children are being let out of school? How?
    The difference is that Israel tries to limit civilian damage while Hamas tries to maximize it.
    Let’s see what happens if I stand outside your house and throw rocks in your general direction.Eventually you are going to get tired of it.

  24. Meri,
    Why are you so sure that all schools in Gaza are closed on Saturday? I based that statement on information taken from first hand accounts coming from Gaza, and the Press release of major Palestinian human rights orgs. The morning school shift had just ended according to a number of sources. Show me a report contradicting that assertion, and I will gladly retract my statement.
    http://tinyurl.com/a57eq2
    http://tinyurl.com/9d53dl
    http://tinyurl.com/9w8gbk
    Ian Thai said:
    every report I’ve read indicates that the targets of Israeli bombings are legitimate targets under international law: i.e. targets that have a clear military value.
    Since when are police stations military targets?
    Jack said:
    The difference is that Israel tries to limit civilian damage while Hamas tries to maximize it.
    Really, and what is the net effect of that valiant attempt to limit civilian damage? I think the last report I read had the death count around 300, give me an example of a Hamas attack where 300 people, Israeli or not, were killed.
    What rubbish this is anyhow. A police station is a CIVILIAN structure. Remember Lebanon? Israel targeted limited CIVILIAN infrastructure there too.
    How can people still be apologetic of this kind of behavior? If the tables were turned, if Lebanon for instance declared war on Israel and attacked power stations, airports, police stations, shuls, etc. What would your reaction be? Now imagine that Israel doesn’t have the ability to fly planes back into Lebanon to retaliate, they just have to take the punishment doled out, and move on with their lives. It’s an awful thought, and an unlikely scenario, but you would likely have no reason to justify Lebanon’s behavior.

  25. Meri wrote:
    Israel’s intent is to do serious damage. But if the intent were a masacure of civilians-then why were 40 trucks of humanitarian aid sent in during a 2 hour lull in the bombing? Or shall we call it just a PR stunt?
    Wow. Yes, let’s pat Israeli on the back for sending humanitarian aid. Forget that they have choked such aid off from Gaza for well over a year before this latest act of aggression, and that they are the very reason that aid is necessary. What a cynical act of kindness.
    If Israel is concerned about the civilian population of Gaza, they have done an absolutely miserable job showing it.

  26. Alon:
    Since when are police stations military targets?
    Given that the police under Hamas operate as a paramilitary whose duties include facilitating rocket attacks on Israel, and terrorizing political opposition to Hamas within Gaza, that makes them legitimate military targets. It’s about the function they serve, not the name you slap on them.

  27. For Gd’s sake you guys are ridiculous.
    Here’s how it works:
    Hamas is a group of radical Muslim terrorists. They want to kill Jews. 99% or something of the “Palestinian” (more like Arab world) population supports them in this mission. So when Israel has to start killing people in self-defense, the supporters die along with the perpetrators.
    A SUPPORTER, EVEN ONLY VERBALLY, OF HAMAS IS NOT INNOCENT. THEY DESERVE TO DIE, AND PAINFULLY. FIND ME MORE THAN 1,000 “PALESTINIANS” WHO THINK THAT HAMAS’S ACTIONS ARE WRONG AND THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE SO-CALLED “INNOCENT BYSTANDERS.”

  28. Alon:
    Police stations are military targets if they are used by the military.
    Given that Gaza is currently in a state similar to martial law under Hamas, the military and the police are the same thing. Ergo, whether you want to call it a police station or a military barracks, it is a military barracks.

  29. kari, i am confused. If israeli military says that settlements are important for military reasons, and some settlements such as ofra, actually started as military bases, does that mean attacking them is like attacking a ligitimate military target?
    and how would you react to a hamas terrorist blowing himself up inside a military base inside israel, or blowing himself up on a bus full of mostly israeli soldiers and only a few civilians? would that be like blowing up a military target?

  30. Ian Thal and Kari:
    Simply stating that the police station is a military target doesn’t make it so. I’m sorry. Israel (and the US for that matter) do not have a monopoly on the subjective definition of the term’terrorist’.
    I’m not trying to make Hamas police out to be anything that they are not, I don’t doubt for a second they have repressed political foes, or clamped down on secular elements in Gazan society. The problem here is that you are trying to make them out to be far more dubious than they are in order to justify the attacks on civilian structures. International Human Rights law is pretty clear that police members who do not take part in hostilities do not qualify as legitimate military targets and must not be deliberately targeted. Did Israel insure that all police officers/administrators were involved in acts of hostilities against Israel, or were they simply bombed and killed for their association as police officers in Hamas controlled Gaza? I think we all know the answer to that question.
    Police stations, metal workshops, Mosques, Municipality and Governorate buildings, charity buildings, medicine stores, Universities, these are civilian targets. Condemn Hamas for firing Qassam rockets into civilian areas if you will, but don’t then turn around and turn a blind eye to Israel’s targeting of civilian targets with far greater military might. It’s a pathetic double standard.
    And to make matters worse, Israel has made the medical situation entirely untenable. For more click here.
    Finally, to Eisan, thanks for just coming out and saying it. It’s nice to know where hateful people stand. Now, let’s play a game, it’s called word switch:
    The IDF is a group of radical Jewish terrorists. They want to kill Palestinians. 99% or something of the “Israeli” (more like Jewish world) population supports them in this mission. So when Hamas has to start killing people in self-defense, the supporters die along with the perpetrators.
    A SUPPORTER, EVEN ONLY VERBALLY, OF ISRAEL IS NOT INNOCENT. THEY DESERVE TO DIE, AND PAINFULLY. FIND ME MORE THAN 1,000 “ISRAELIS” WHO THINK THAT THE IDF’S ACTIONS ARE WRONG AND THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE SO-CALLED “INNOCENT BYSTANDERS.”
    I obviously don’t believe the above statement, I simply want to point out the ludicrous nature of your statement.

  31. “If israeli military says that settlements are important for military reasons, and some settlements such as ofra, actually started as military bases, does that mean attacking them is like attacking a ligitimate military target?
    and how would you react to a hamas terrorist blowing himself up inside a military base inside israel, or blowing himself up on a bus full of mostly israeli soldiers and only a few civilians? would that be like blowing up a military target?”
    But that’s the problem. Hamas has never acted as such.
    To read some of the postings related to these dreadful days, it’s as if some of us think this entire situation began in Jan. ’06. It’s as if Hamas won those elections, Israel imposed a diplomatic and economic blockade on Gaza, and Hamas is firing Kassams in order to fight the Israeli occuppation. And, now Israel is bombing the living hell out of Gaza in order to….I don’t know.
    There’s one thing we keep ignoring, though: The events of 2000-2004, when there were daily attacks inside of Israel. Maybe if Hamas/Fatah had limited those attacks to all Israelis (soldiers and civilians) located in Gaza, the West Bank, even East Jerusalem, even the areas designated Palestine by the ’47 Partition Plan. Maybe if things had unfolded that way, we could say that the answer is not force but to help them (including Hamas)in all arenas, that the entire problem is the occupation.
    But, for God’s sake, those attacks were in the hearts of our cities and towns! They were intended to send the same message that Hamas’s spokespeople deliver every day: They want to destroy our country! Not two stats, not a binational state, but an Islamic state, and all Jews who came after Balfour will have to leave. They can’t be any clearer about things.
    Some of the posters seem to think that we should make life great in Gaza, so that Hamas is seen as an effective movement? So that Palestinians will understand that violence and rejectionism of the two-state idea works…as opposed to the path of negotiations?
    Of course it’s our fault too, for weakening Fatah.

  32. Alon: Yeah, because Hamas’s actions are totally self defense. Violating a ceasefire and targeting civilians is a defensive tactic.
    The difference is quite clear, not sure why you don’t see it. Hamas is trying to kill innocents. The IDF is trying to kill people who are trying to kill civilians. So far, Hamas has killed 100% civilians. The IDF campaign has killed 87% militants. So who’s doing the right thing, I wonder?

  33. Eisan,
    I think you should take a look at the headlines from from Nov. 5, 2008 and shortly thereafter coming from Gaza. The cease-fire was broken by the IDF. But that is now hardly the point, Israel has gone far beyond breaking a cease-fire that only served to allow Israel to systematically punish Gaza through economic and physical coercion. They have now entered into full fledged onslaught.
    Secondly, it is utterly preposterous for you to claim that 87% of the more than 300 people killed have been “militants”. To begin with, roughly 15% (41 Children, 9 women) of the dead are women and children. Also, police officers who are not directly involved in hostilities against Israel CANNOT be targeted, and yet they have been. Unless Israel is prepared to prove the statistic you put forth, it is probably best for you to stop using it. By the way, how do you even begin to explain the targeting of mosques, legislative assemblies, Universities, refugee camps, and other civilian structures?
    Furthermore, UN Numbers regarding civilian casualties have not yet accounted for male civilian deaths. That is right, the only civilian deaths that have been reported by the UN’s agencies are women and children. When this is all said and done, the count will be much higher.
    No group, Jewish or otherwise is justified in targeting innocent civilians. The distinction you have made, which you believe absolves you of being a callous human being for supporting the IDF’s actions, is that anyone who has elected Hamas is either no longer civilian, or at least no longer innocent. This of course does not make it so. Thousands upon thousands of Israeli’s voted for Likkud and later Kadima…others for Shas, Labour, etc….these are parties who have seen through horrendous, some would say terrorist policies vis-a-vis the Arab populations of Palestine and Lebanon. It does not make Israeli civilians a legitimate target for violent action.

  34. Alon – you are simply ridiculous.
    You say:
    “FIND ME MORE THAN 1,000 “ISRAELIS” WHO THINK THAT THE IDF’S ACTIONS ARE WRONG AND THEN WE CAN TALK” –
    By the way – there are hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens who are Muslims who may not support the war effort. But in your blind hatred ( “A SUPPORTER, EVEN ONLY VERBALLY, OF ISRAEL IS NOT INNOCENT. THEY DESERVE TO DIE, AND PAINFULLY”) I guess you don’t consider them Israelis.
    Why confuse you with the facts? Yes, most Israelis probably do support the war effort. But thousands voted for the 10 Knesset members who do not. Thousands of Jewish Israelis have signed a petition to halt the war. A lead columnist in HaAretz wrote against the war.
    But why be confused by the facts. Sure – let’s go with 99%.

  35. Alon writes “the cease-fire was broken by the IDF.”
    Okay. Just stop. Please. You are right. Israel broke it. No..no. Eisan is right because Hamas broke it. No, Israel broke it. No, Hamas broke it.
    Maybe, just maybe, no one broke it! Maybe, just maybe, the cease-fire never really existed. In fact, how can you say any cease-fire between Israelis and Palestinians is a true cease-fire? France just called for a 48-hour cease-fire. Really? Is that like downloading a 30-day rental off of iTunes? Or I am wrong, and cease-fires exist because all that a cease-fire is, is the ceasing of firing weapons, until it starts again.
    Back and forth, back and forth, both you and Eisan have proven to me nothing but that people have opinions, and I cannot take either of you serious. Don’t you have something helpful to add? I dunno, maybe tell us why you think the fighting has not stopped, or why so much bloodshed has continued?
    I’m interested in your relationships to Israel? How can people with such BIG opinions of Israel not share their personal experiences with Israel? So let me ask…Alon-Do you live here (i.e. any city in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza)? Or do you vote in elections here? Eisan-have you ever served in the army? Or have you ever sat down to break bread with a Palestinian?
    I don’t want to judge either of you, but you both are doing a fine job of judging Israelis and Palestinians, as well as the IDF and the Hamas.
    And to make this conversation open, I have never served in the IDF. I have eaten meals with Palestinian Israelis. I do live in Jerusalem but I do not vote in elections because I have U.S. citizenship. I do not agree with the war that the news here is calling Milchemet HaHamas. I do not agree with the Hamas’ aggression against Israel either. I am not pointing fingers because Israel is guilty. Oh and Hamas is guilty. America is guilty too. Egypt is guilty, as well. Jordan is guilty. Lebanon is guilty. Do I need to continue? Hmmm…maybe the whole world is guilty for letting this situation get to 2009(!) and there is still rivers of blood, pools of tears and violence surrounding the holiest area on the planet.
    Keep talking because it doesn’t help anything but tout egos. Instead of yapping on Jewschool, donate $18 to an agency that can help bring aid to the civilians suffering from the Hamas in Gaza. Or give tzedakah to provide gift baskets for the teenagers, yes, youths, who serve in the IDF and fight a war they may not agree with either and fight for a country that says “jump!” and they respond “how high?”
    This whole conversation does not help to solve this very real and very serious problem in the Middle East because we are forced to choose or agree with side “Truth” or side “Other.” Instead of helping with insightful constructive criticism, these writings are just critical on both ends. When it comes down to it the words from all sides of this table blind the readers.

  36. Adam,
    I appreciate your post.
    Just to start, I want to emphasize something I said to Eisan:
    I think you should take a look at the headlines from from Nov. 5, 2008 and shortly thereafter coming from Gaza. The cease-fire was broken by the IDF. But that is now hardly the point..
    I’m not trying to get caught in the blame game of who is wrong and who is right, because as I’ve stated, I do not think that any attack on innocent Civilians is justified. What I’m trying to get at in debating Eisan and the ilk is that Israel’s actions are not justified by the fact they are Israeli, or Jewish. This does not mean I believe that Hamas’ actions are justified by them being Palestinian or Muslim. It is the sort of blindly nationalistic ideology that Eisan apparently subscribes to that is so infuriating to me. In this case, it is also entirely unsustainable.
    As to my relationship to Medinat Israel, I am only an occasional visitor. I do not believe that this precludes me from being as critical as I please regarding both domestic and foreign policies of the state. I’m not sure what your point is, do you mean to say that only Jews in Israel are granted valid opinions on Israeli policy?
    For the record, I have made donations to orgs as a result of this latest round of violence and if I can come up with the money, I will do so again.
    Meir,
    Read my post again. I was quoting Eisan’s ludicrous statement, switching out every instance of Palestinian/Arab with Israeli/Jewish to prove a point, not to make a factual statement.

  37. Alon:
    Ian Thal and Kari:
    Simply stating that the police station is a military target doesn’t make it so. I’m sorry. Israel (and the US for that matter) do not have a monopoly on the subjective definition of the term ’terrorist’.

    And saying that a police station is not a military target does not make it so.
    Despite what you may say, terrorism has an objective definition: “Violence, or threats of violence, by non-state actors upon civilian targets in order to further a political or ideological goal.” The only question is whether or not Hamas is to considered a de-facto state actor– they certainly do target civilians– and explicitly say as much. If one wants to consider them a de-facto state, then they are no longer terrorists, they become war criminals. These are objective, legal definitions.
    You are also making the mistake of assuming that “police” means the same thing under Hamas as it does in most societies. For instance: Where I live, police engage in public safety, i.e. apprehending criminals, crime prevention, presenting evidence to courts, direct motor vehicles, conflict resolution, directing civilians during times of emergency, et cetera, while the military is for the protection of the nation-state from external enemies and serves to project force in advance of foreign policy. These are incredibly different functions.
    No such distinction operates under Hamas. Hamas police also man rocket crews, would serve as armed forces should ground operations commence, and their stations operate as weapon caches that would otherwise be used against IDF in such situations. In short, the police are fully integrated with the military wing of Hamas as well as participating in the political and religious persecution of Palestinians.
    As we have gone on before, many of the other targets you identify as “civilian” have clear military functions: Metal shops manufacture the rockets that are landing in southern Israel. That makes them military targets.
    A building that has a designated civilian use that also has a military function, i.e. weapon caches, command and control, are military targets. It’s really that simple.
    We also have to look at the fact that based on the latest figures, only about 15% of the deaths in Gaza appear to be instances of collateral damage– which means that Israel is taking care to minimize civilian casualties when operating in a densely populated area. It’s Hamas that is engaged in the crime of using civilians as human shields.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.

The reCAPTCHA verification period has expired. Please reload the page.

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.