Join Jewschool in NYC on Sunday, 11 am, to support a ceasefire!
As chillul Who mentioned, Mobius proposed a third-option rally and with friends got the permit to do so!
Protest in favor of Israeli-Palestinian Peace:
Oppose violence and hatred on both sides
Sunday, January 11th at 11 am – 2 pm
Second Avenue between 41st and 42nd Streets
Check Mobius’ post and the Facebook notice for more details
Jewschool prefers to speak a cacophony rather than in one voice — we have incredibly intelligent and still progressive dissenting voices here too. Which, incidentally, is how we believe the Jewish community should be understood, not through self-appointed communal spokespersons but by the grassroots and for our full diversity.
Yet we’re co-sponsoring this Pro-Ceasefire rally because we do support against-the-grain, bottom-up movements of Jews engaging the pressing issues of our community. As progressive Jews, we’re not satisfied with the empty claims from the both camps that peace will come by “fucking for virginity” as it were. And we’re against the rhetoric of genocide and hilterian comparisons. Neither side is respectible, their policy recommendations are not responsible.
And a final note: I don’t believe in protests. But I’m going to be there.
I don’t believe that an NYC counter-counter rally will change the way our government will handle the crisis. That’s what advocacy is for. But dammit, some people cannot even see the vapid dichotomy in which they’re stuck. Maybe I’m reaching to think that 100+ people will spark confusion and revelation amongst individuals in two frothing moshpits of Jews or Palestinians aggitating for each others’ subjugation. But call me a dreamer.
Is there an alternative, third-option protest in your city? Put in the comments.
I find something a little less than forthcoming in a statement like that. You’re basically just saying “I don’t like one side, or another side — I just like when people don’t fight.”
That’s really nice. But people are fighting. And there is a severe moral difference between the two sides. To avoid dealing with that makes you sound like a harried nanny saying “Now I don’t care who started it, both of you kids shut up right now!”
It’s not sophisticated and it’s not brave.
You write like “calling for a ceasefire” is some kind of pristine moral act with no negative side effects. But everybody knows that there are side effects — severe side effects. Side effects like enabling Hamas to rearm and restock its weapons systems, strengthen and expand its underground infrastructure and resume its prolific weapons and missile imports. And that’s before even addressing the realities of Hamas rule over Gaza’s people.
In other words, a “ceasefire” will mean that Israel ceases its operations, Hamas reasserts control and Gaza soon resumes firing missiles into Israeli cities and villages. The same way Gazans have been launching missiles into Israeli cities for 5 years, including during “ceasefire” times (and even these weird daily “humanitarian lull” thingies that are now part of the action).
A ceasefire benefits Hamas. It gives them the time, space and prestige to rearm, rebuild and resume their assaults on the Zionist enemy. A ceasefire does nothing to improve Israeli security or disempower the purveyors of terrorism.
One cannot always have it both ways.
Eric, lots of problems with your assumptions but I appreciate what you’re trying to say.
1) People are fighting, yes. People are dying. So let’s stop. I think that’s awfully more moral than continuing to kill.
2) Hamas has imported long distance rockets but the more numerous rockets that still threaten Sderot are all home-made. You’ll never “stop” the rockets. Ever. The security threat cannot be militarily purged.
3) We cannot forget that Hamas offered a ceasefire but wanted the seige lifted. There are ways to open Gaza to trade while ensuring that Israel’s security needs are met. Instead, Israel decided to take it’s last Bush-endorsed bombing campaign before Obama likely withholds those freebies.
4) The armed conflict benefits Hamas more than a ceasefire! World opinion follows the civilian deaths and there are now 30 times the number of Palestinian civilian deaths than Israeli. Do we really want the world sympathizing with Hamas?
You cannot examine this conflict narrowly considering only the stock of rockets on one side. The civilian population is not going to overturn on Hamas for lots of reasons. They’ll never violently turn on their own people and Hamas has all the guns to do so anyway. If that strategy could have worked, it would have worked by now. Bush’s policies of non-engagement have failed. Epic fail.
The solution is make a damn settlement. As long as there are not negotations and progress towards a two-state solution, Hamas will always find ways to shoot rockets into Israel past any blockade or seige. Take away the occupation and popular support for the extremists fall.
Kung Fu Jew the problems are with your assumptions. If you attended any of these rallies you would have seen that the Pro Israeli rallies consisted mainly of people chanting “peace now” while the Pro Palestinian/Hamas rallies were chanting “Jews are the Nazis”, “go back to the ovens” and other fun stuff. Which side are you on???
“The armed conflict benefits Hamas more than a ceasefire! World opinion follows the civilian deaths and there are now 30 times the number of Palestinian civilian deaths than Israeli.”
Can you please tell me who is responsible for those deaths? And can you please tell me why no one cared, and there were no UN or Red cross protests about the civilian deaths at the Nahr al-Bared camp in north Lebanon last year?
As for Hamas accepting the cease fire if Israel opens the borders that’s a load of crap. Delve a little deeper into it if you really care about this. And I would look further then the mainstream media, the majority of who have thrown common sense out the window, have joined the UN and the Red Cross and have picked a side in this conflict. I amazed that the world, and people like you, would rather believe, and side with, an intolerant Islamic fundamentalist movement then with a democratic state with Jewish values. You people really should be ashamed of yourselves.
I meant to include the following quote.
“The solution is make a damn settlement. As long as there are not negotations and progress towards a two-state solution, Hamas will always find ways to shoot rockets into Israel past any blockade or seige. Take away the occupation and popular support for the extremists fall.”
Occupation? Eric already answered this. “Two state solution” Ask Hamas about their support of a two state solution. As for the rest you are beyond naive.
Wow naïve is right. I haven’t seen such dangerous naiveity since Neville stuck his head out of the window with that worthless piece of paper.
KFJ says “we can not forget that Hamas offered a ceasefire but…”
With all due respect but you are really in denial.
Hamas, wants every Jew, including you,dead. You know that.Israeli’s really don’t want war and want to live in peace. You know that. Israel is trying to avoid civilian deaths. You know that.
There are times when the only way you can make peace with a mortal enemy is by killing them. Hamas has not nor will ever acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.. In short, they are EVIL.
You have a right to be naïve. But when your OWN people are being subjected to daily missile attacks and you publicly demonstrate against their basic human right of self defense that is TREASON.
I am not going to any rally because I dont believe in them. But I certainly won’t give aid and comfort to the enemy. That is exactly what you guys are doing.
Lucky for you and the rest of the free world that Winston Churchill wasn’t out at a rally singing “All we are saying is give peace a chance”. He gave peace a real chance by removing the singular roadblock to peace, an evil regime. That’s what Israel is doing. In the name of peace love and understanding I support it.
“If you attended any of these rallies you would have seen that the Pro Israeli rallies consisted mainly of people chanting “peace now””
What rallies have you been to?!?! All I have seen are “Hamas = Hitler” and “IDF finish the job”. (I’m not leaving out the presence of “Save Sderot” signs, but that’s entirely aside the point.) You can’t point out the bad stuff the “other side” says, and then leave out the ones on your own side!
Talk about naivite. We have the audacity, based on observation of military operations by Israel, the US, and Russia, to question the effectiveness of the military option… and WE are naive? This isn’t fucking WWII, and I’m invoking Godwin. In the 21st century, we look at complex situations and find the best method (attack, if you will) to address them based on precedent.
You can kill every Hamas member and destroy every rocket today… and you’ll have suicide bombers tomorrow. Do you want a safe Israel or not? Who’ side are YOU on?
I stand with a nations right to defed their people as they see fit . I stand with our people.
You apparently stand alone with only Rodney King as your moral compass. You know we can’t all just get along. Because there is evil in the room.Its name is Hamas. You know it. You just have more loyalty to liberalism than your people.
i love jewschool-
Why not respond to what B.BarNavi is actually saying, rather than to the words you are putting in his mouth? Suppose Israel does what you suggest and kills every individual associated with Hamas. What do you think will happen next?
OK so let me see if I got it right. Because their enemy is intractable, Israel needs to simply roll over and acquiesce to Hamas. Hamas is fighting a proxy war for the Iranian Shiite thugocracy. The weapons? A handful of half decent rockets, a bunch of cheap rockets and 1.5 million even cheaper Sunni lives whose misery and death feed an international media machine hungry for images of blood and gore.
OK. Cool. I see what y’all are trying to do. So tell me… why have all the major Jewish peace groups in the US out and out declined to endorse this rally? What’s that all about?
After Hamas is removed Gaza can be returned to Egypt as it was before 1967.
So how did it go?
Gaza returned to Egypt? Have you payed attention to ANYTHING that happened after that point? Islamist presence or not, Egypt doesn’t want ANYTHING to do with Gaza!
And CK is placing a false dichotomy, like any pro-war stooge. Either you roll all over your enemies with no abandon, or you let your enemies roll all over you. It’s not possible to assert your position without resorting to revenge. No room for nuance or reason, I guess.
You have no source on whether Jewish peace groups declined to endorse this rally at all.
Yes I have in fact.
Gaza has historically been part of Egypt for hundreds of years. There are three choices here
1) Allow Hamas(meaning Iran who are not Sunni) to rule Gaza
2) Israeli occupation
3) Going back to 1967 borders and restoring Gaza to Egypt.
If you remember ANYTHING from history, the 6 day war was forced upon Israel by Nasser’s pan Arabist goals.
Israel never wanted the war or to occupy Gaza.
The first two choices are obviously not happening and the 3rd is the only option. Ofcourse egypt wants nothing to do with the so Arabs of Gazan but they might not have a choice. They are tools of the west.
Living under secular Egyptian rule would be a lot better than Gaza living under the rule of Iran.
As to your notion that destroying Hamas will only increase suicide bombings, what has stopped suicide bombings has been the security wall. Leaving a the state of Hamas in tact, who’s sole aim is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews’s including you, and who’s religion pushes martydom, THAT is suicide.
3) Going back to 1967 borders and restoring Gaza to Egypt.
Can you explain how the present course of action will help convince Egypt to agree to this plan?
I mean, if I were Egypt, I wouldn’t want Gaza either.
Gaza was never legally Egypt’s anyway, it remains Palestinian territory along with the West Bank, as affirmed by the 1947 UN partition plan. Palestinians ceded their right to what Israel conquered from them beyond those two territories in 1988 at Oslo, but have never given up their right to Gaza and the West Bank.
Unfortunately, the settlements all across the West Bank and growing actively, deny Palestine’s right to exist. Palestinians being pinned back by Israeli martial law as settlers colonize their homeland out from under them, which has since lead to increasingly more violence against Israelis and Palestinians. Our media and government leaders keep popular opinion focused on terrorists like Hamas, while they perpetuate this conflict in their conquest over what little is left of Palestine.
We can stop the terrorists who use their meager means to shoot rockets and send in suicide bombers, but not until we stop the extremists on our side who mislead the masses to exploit the means of our great nations to further their own devious ends. Yet it is we who pay the price, not them, as they live far out of reach of the terrorists, and hold callous disregard for the death and destruction their mad quest for power leaves in their wake. It is in our power to bring depose these tyrants, and that is what we must do to bring a just solution to this conflict, so that both Israel and Palestine can exist beside each other in peace.
Yea nobody wants Gaza.
Egypt can be “convinced” if the billions the receive from the U.S is tied to their takeover of Gaza.
The current move by Israel to weaken or destroy Hamas is the only way Egypt will agree to this. Egypt wants to see Hamas destroyed as well.They have their own problems with the muslim brotherhood, and the last thing they need is a well armed takeover. If Israel cleans house then Eygpt can come in as the muslim saviors of gaza. They would be welcomed with joy. Gazan culture is tied to Egyptian culture. Gazan’s are more secular than they are fundamentalist. Many have grown beards,wear burka’s etc to fit in with their current rulers.
Egypt,Jordan and the rest of the moderate arabs are happy to see Hamas go. Hamas is a mortal threat to their governments as the are to Israels.
B.BarNavi wrote: And CK is placing a false dichotomy, like any pro-war stooge. Either you roll all over your enemies with no abandon, or you let your enemies roll all over you. It’s not possible to assert your position without resorting to revenge. No room for nuance or reason, I guess.
I’ll ignore the unnecessary invective and just say that your interpretation of my position is in itself simplistic and lacks both nuance and reason. It’s ok though. You don’t know me and I don’t know you, so I’m not going to fault you for that.
You have no source on whether Jewish peace groups declined to endorse this rally at all.
I stand by that statement. I have my sources and it’s not like there are newspaper articles I can quote. You are free to talk to the rally organizers and I am certain they will confirm this as fact. This shouldn’t come as a surprise though. There have been a number of efforts to hold similar anti-war rallies in other cities and in all cases (that I know of) attempts at solidarity have failed as Peace groups and Palestinian groups have refused to publicly join the side that says that both parties to the conflict are at fault.
That having been said, I hope the rally went well and that people’s preconceived notions were duly and effectively challenged. It’s all about the dialog after all, innit?
I followed the conversation with great interest and the only person so far that convinced me on here is kyleb.
His reasoning is complete and well thought through.
Indeed both sides need to reconsider their actions and see where they are going with occupation of palestinian land or by sending rockets or suicide bombings. Both just accentuate the “hate” for one another.
As to i love jewschool’s comment “Egypt can be “convinced” if the billions the receive from the U.S is tied to their takeover of Gaza.* maybe we should turn the coin around and also remark that maybe the USA can “convince” Israel to back off, no??
As a European I know that there is a growing discontent with the Israeli policy it is leading right now and what would Israel do if all the money it gets from Germany, Austria and other European countries disappears until war stops.
On Belgian Radio the Embassador of Israel to Belgium had as only answer when confronted to the deaths on the Israeli side in 8 years compared to the deaths on the Palestinian side to say: “It’s not the number that counts” to which she was confronted with the harsh answer “then stop complaining about the 6 millions for the last 60 years”. I’m not defending this kind of attitude, but the answer of the Embassador was not adequate either and underlines my remark about the current tendency that is develloping in Europe.