A slim sliver of hope for a more religiously pluralistic Israel
Crossposted to New Voices Magazine
God bless the supreme court of Israel. They aren’t always as daring as I want them to be, but sometimes they do the right thing. And that’s what they did yesterday when they decided that the state may no longer subsidize the learning of yeshiva students.
Here’s the full Haaretz article, and here’s a little quote that sums it up:
Justice Ayala Procaccia, who voted for the ruling, said the ruling characterized the dilemma between the obligation of a multi-cultural society to respect minorities and the duty of all citizens to accept their responsibilities according to the law of the land.
A third judge, Justice Edmond Levy, dissented.
“Torah study is a commandment and both the Knesset and the government have asserted that it should be funded by placing on the public the burden of providing an income for Torah students,” Levy wrote.
If Israel is to prove that it is indeed “The Only Democracy” in the region, this is the type of state-mandated pluralism they’re going to need more of. The state used to provide similar funding to college students, but cancelled that funding on 2000 (which is a shame). At the time, someone brought a case before the Supreme Court asking that if that funding to secular students had ended, the same funding for fundamentalist leeches who spend their entire lives in yeshiva must surely end as well.
The case finally came before the court this year and the verdict was good.
As an aside, I took this course taught by UN Declaration of Human Rights expert Hans Morsink last year about religion/state relationships all over the world. We had this one book (can’t remember name or author and left it in New Jersey, so…) that rated every country in the world based on a detailed list of legislative and facts-on-the-ground criteria. Israel, needless to say, didn’t do so hot in this book. But perhaps things are looking up?
Leeches? Ick. Perhaps a little thoughtfulness about the words you use to disparage the “jewiest” among us?
Otherwise, thanks for posting, definitely interesting article.
well well well, finally it looks like the donkey is going to ride the messiah into jerusalem.
fundamentalist leeches
Hatred.
The haredi system is ultimately unsustainable. It had to be cut off and if not now, when? If you’re not independently wealthy, have a sponsor, or have some other way to “pay your own way”, then you must work, just like everyone else.
Nowhere does the commandment to study imply that it is okay to expect other people to subsidize it. Nowhere does the Torah claim that one shouldn’t work.
Jacob writes:
Leeches? Ick. Perhaps a little thoughtfulness about the words you use to disparage the “jewiest” among us?
“Leeches” may not be accurate (since that word implies taking without consent, and up until now the haredi sector’s unsustainable lifestyle has been funded with the consent of the other factions in the Knesset who have needed the haredim for coalitions), but “jewiest” is even less accurate.
(On the other hand, given the state of science knowledge in parts of the haredi sector, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them thought “leeches” was a compliment, meaning that they are making Israel healthier.)
ML writes:
Nowhere does the Torah claim that one shouldn’t work.
And on the contrary, “sheishet yamim ta’avod” is a positive commandment.
“I may attack a certain point of view which I consider false, but I will never attack a person who preaches it. I have always a high regard for the individual who is honest and moral, even when I am not in agreement with him. Such a relation is in accord with the concept of kavod habriyot, for beloved is man for he is created in the image of God.” —Rav Joseph Soloveitchik
fundamentalist leeches
DAWM, your bigotry has gone too far. Shame on Jewschool. Where is BZ and KFJ and dlevy denouncing this hate speech? DAWM gets a pass, kudos even, for insulting tens of thousands of Jews, spreading hateful, demeaning stereotypes about a subset community of Jews and that’s just fine for the Jewschool editors. It’s all perfectly understandable, right BZ? You’re hypocrites. Your credibility on human rights and human decency is in tatters.
Anonymouse writes:
I may attack a certain point of view which I consider false, but I will never attack a person who preaches it.
Nu? DAMW was attacking people for their actions, not for preaching a point of view. He didn’t call, e.g., Justice Edmond Levy a “leech”, even if he disagreed with Levy on this issue.
Anonymouse writes:
Your credibility on human rights and human decency is in tatters.
Which human rights are you referring to here?
David –
I share your sentiments that this ruling is a good thing, but, as others have pointed out, referring to Haredim as “fundamentalist leeches” is not acceptable and I’m surprised it passed Jewschool’s editorial filter.
David,
I have read with amusement your pronouncements about various Jewish issues. Having strong convictions is admirable, however, your tone is often pretentious and the judgmental nature of your posts strikes an unintentionally ironic chord in light of the tolerance you expect from others with regard to your own non-traditional practices and approaches to Jewish observance.
I also can’t escape the classist nature of this post. The Haredim, even if it is by their own choice, live at or below the poverty line and were not raised in affluent American suburbs. Calling them “leeches” makes you sound like an elitist, American snob. Surely abstaining from lashon hara has some place in your Jewish value system, regardless of how nuanced and forward-looking you wish to define it.
David, in what world is referring to a fellow Jew as a “leech” acceptable?
I have to agree with Pete Stein.
Jew School needs to raise their standards, as well as broaden the scope of viewpoints that are expressed here. It’s turning into a very predictable one-trick pony that quite frankly does not reflect well on the state of young “progressive” Jewry in the U.S.
Anonymouse writes:
spreading hateful, demeaning stereotypes about a subset community of Jews
Where’s the stereotyping? Nothing in DAMW’s post suggested that he was talking about the entire haredi population, but rather he was referring only to those “who spend their entire lives in yeshiva”. According to Haaretz, 30.6% of haredi men work, and DAMW’s remarks were not directed at them.
BZ — Your equivocating and attempts to distort David’s intent don’t add anything to the discussion, nor is your logic sound. Even if David only intended to call the 69.4% of non-working Haredi men leeches (and we can of course assume Haaretz’s unattributed statistic is correct), this would still be a subset community of Jews, albeit a subset of a subset.
Maybe try addressing the substance of what people find offensive about this post, instead of splitting hairs and using twisted logic?
Even if David only intended to call the 69.4% of non-working Haredi men leeches (and we can of course assume Haaretz’s unattributed statistic is correct), this would still be a subset community of Jews, albeit a subset of a subset.
But then it’s not a stereotype, it’s just an insult. Likewise, calling Jews “big-nosed” is a stereotype, but calling Jews “kikes” isn’t.
I agree that “leeches” was not the best word to describe people who, as much as I really really dislike their practices, are still people.
But these are people who are supported entirely by the state.
Not only that, but if you’re a non-Haredi and you want to learn Torah all day? Too bad. You’re not Jewish enough.
If you’re a woman? Hell no. What, you think you have rights in Israel?
I’m wary of the word “leeches,” since people often use it in discourse about welfare in general. I don’t think that people who seek welfare are leeches, and I’m hesitant to go down that road in rhetoric. However, this is a group that actively chooses not to work. In a country where it is easiest to work and be a religious Jew. No asking off early for Fridays in the winter. No working double-time in September to make up for the holidays. And they treat that opportunity like garbage.
And this is ignoring the fact that, halachically, they can’t learn Torah twice as long and have it count for two people. I am responsible for my own study of Torah.
So, leeches may not be the right word, and it does smack of hatred and disgust. But let’s not ignore the fundamental issue here, just to jump down DAMW and BZ’s throat.
I’m not jumping down anyone’s throat. I’m merely pointing out that I don’t find this website or David particularly progressive. To the contrary, I find that posts like this reveal viewpoints this reinforce very conventional attitudes towards the poor.
To be clear: I considered a number of words. I like leech because these are people who refuse to participate in society and choose to sequester them selves in their limestone towers studying all day. Nothing wrong with study, but everything wrong with study in a vacuum.
And as for “Jewiest,” you know nothing about Judaism if you think the Jewiest way to engage with the world is to disengage.
Former fan, judgemental and pretentious? Me? Yeah “Unintentionally ironic.” Perhaps I didn’t intend it, but I’m certainly aware of it. “In what world is referring to a fellow Jew as a ‘leech’ acceptable?” Would it be better if I was referring to non-Jews?
And to those who object to BZ’s defenses my words, he’s right on the money.
Leeches is used for the poor in the US who rely in welfare, but I wouldn’t use it for them. As has been pointed out, the word was used to refer to people who go out of their way to neither work nor contribute to society in any way. I would never use it to refer to the legitimately poor in any country.
“Maybe try addressing the substance of what people find offensive about this post, instead of splitting hairs and using twisted logic?” Is there substance to their objections? People only seem to object to two words of the post, so if that’s where the argument is, that’s the argument we’ll have.
Let me clarify my point. It is ironic that someone who claims to want to foster diversity and tolerance in the Jewish community is so consistently judgmental of other Jews, regardless of the merits of your criticism of the Haredi community.
And as far as the substance of the objection, the objection is that your delivery, tone, and word choice seriously undercut your credibility and detract from your message. That is honest criticism. Give it some thought.
It is ironic that someone who claims to want to foster diversity and tolerance in the Jewish community is so consistently judgmental of other Jews
There’s no irony here at all. Let’s say we were talking about stealing. No one, even one “who claims to want to foster diversity and tolerance”, would say that tolerance should extend to tolerating stealing, or diversity should extend to having both people who steal and people who don’t steal. So there’s an open question as to whether a whole sector of society choosing not to work and living off others’ taxes is equivalent to stealing. I already said earlier in the thread that I think it’s not entirely (since a majority of the Knesset approved those appropriations, though I disagree with their decision), but let’s have that conversation rather than grotesquely caricaturing progressivism to say that progressives shouldn’t disagree with anything and are hypocrites any time they do.
Ok. I appreciate the criticism that plainly stated. Do you see that anywhere in the post other than in the words “fundamentalist leeches?”
Do I see that your delivery, tone, and word choice undercut your credibility and detract from your message anywhere in the post other than the phrase “fundamentalist leeches”? No, but it’s hard to take the rest of the post seriously.
Do I see this phrase as part of a trend of intolerance on this website? Yes. Have I seen it in your posts and the posts of other contributors before? Yes.
It’s not constructive and I think it’s turning off a segment of the readership, big time. And what you will end up with here is a monolithic poorly articulated message and then a few trolls looking for a fight.
And that’s not what Jewshcool used to be.
BZ — nice try. “Grotesquely caricaturing progressivism.” Not quite. My argument is that this site and this post is not necessarily “progressive.” That’s not a caricature.
Explain to me what is progressive about upper middle class Americans who may or may not support themselves (I have no idea) calling poor people in Israel “leeches.” Sounds a lot to me like right wing fringe jobs who vilify the people who receive assistance in the U.S.
Whatever. Keep preaching to the converted.
Explain to me what is progressive about upper middle class Americans who may or may not support themselves (I have no idea) calling poor people in Israel “leeches.” Sounds a lot to me like right wing fringe jobs who vilify the people who receive assistance in the U.S.
You have no idea whether or not they support themselves, but you know for sure that they’re upper middle class?
The caricature is in the “diversity and tolerance” part, but looking back at your comments, I realize that you didn’t actually equate this with “progressive”, so maybe I misunderstood.
So… if you’re a *former* fan, how long are you gonna hang around here arguing with us?
DAMW, who are you to judge someone’s contribution to society, or lack thereof? Your arrogance and contempt for others is mindboggling. I thought you don’t even live in Israel, so it’s not even YOUR society you’re defending against those dirty, Jew leeches! If you didn’t have your barbie doll stuck so far up your exhaust pipe you’d see how you exhibited classic bigotry without even blinking. Carry on, you poor, poor boy.
Another reason to disagree with the characterization of those “who spend their entire lives in yeshiva” as “leeches” (in the plural) is that the use of the plural implies that each of them is individually accountable for their actions, whereas I think a case could be made against blaming individuals, since it’s not their fault they were born into a culture with certain expectations (and a country that enables it). They could be viewed as “tinokot shenishbu“, who don’t bear individual responsibility. According to this view, the criticism should be directed at the haredi sector as a whole, not at haredi individuals.
But, precisely because this destructive behavior is collective rather than individual, the analogy to conventional welfare recipients breaks down. As far as I know, there are no (religious or other) leaders in the United States who encourage entire communities of people not to work, and to live off government benefits instead (and that’s not even to mention having lots of children), and any leader who suggested anything like that would be justly vilified by both left and right. Welfare is for individuals who can’t find jobs (and their families), not for an entire sector of society who chooses not to.
Fundamentalist Mormons live on welfare, BZ.
Really? I just googled Mormon welfare and found lots of hits saying the opposite, that the Mormon church runs its own welfare system, without government funding. (And as far as I can tell from those articles, the Mormon welfare system functions essentially the same as the regular American welfare system, in that it is for people who are down and out.)
It is ironic that someone who claims to want to foster diversity and tolerance in the Jewish community is so consistently judgmental of other Jews
Are Anonymous and “former fan” really hiding behind the banner of defending “progressivism” in order to complain that one of Jewschool’s contributors is preachy? There is no human right protecting you against being judged.
I think DAWM overstepped poetic license into unnecessary insults. He’s indeed articulate enough to have used another phrasing to convey his disgust.
And does Jewschool need some new and diverse voices? Yes, absolutely. The editorial board welcomes any suggestions of potential contributors. Send them our way. But sounds like “former fan’s” grudge against DAWM has been long-simmering. Don’t pretend this issue is any bigger if it’s not.
KFJ, are you claiming that insulting others on the basis of bigotry constitutes the type of social justice that Jewschool stands for?
Human rights devoid of justice, seasoned with intolerance and hate, is not human rights. Describing tens of thousands of human beings as “fundamentalist leaches” should be unacceptable on a progressive forum. Certainly, as you well know, my own comments have been removed from Jewschool posts for much, much less. It’s surprising that so many don’t seem to agree.
Perhaps DAWM will take your description of his remarks as “unnecessary insults” (as opposed to necessary insults?) to heart and issue a sincere apology.
Anonymouse writes:
KFJ, are you claiming that insulting others on the basis of bigotry constitutes the type of social justice that Jewschool stands for?
If people are criticized for their actions, then it’s not “on the basis of bigotry”.
Can we just take a step back here for a moment. This is a blog people, a blog. No body’s human rights are being infringed upon here and it is certainly not a forum for achieveing justice. It’s just a blog. A place where people can pretty much say whatever they want with impunity.
That having been said one must be careful about the words one uses even on a blog especially one that has a picture of the Hafetz Haim on it.
Now, let’s get to the issue at hand. DAMW called chareidim “fundamentalist leeches”. Insensitive? Sure. Disrespectful? You bet. Untrue? No way! (although BZ’s point is well taken)
Chareidim or rather the chareidi establishment does not have a western work ethic and thus are parasitic (gasp) members of society. They do not serve in the army, many don’t work (this is starting to change thankfully), they do not pay taxes, many of them don’t believe in the legitimacy of the State (any state probably but certainly Israel) and yet they have no problem being the beneficiaries of the same entity that they revile and disgust.
This is a good ruling by the court and I hope will serve as a wake up call to the chareidi community.
I will issue no apology. I believe my words to have been accurate. Fundamentalist is a descriptive term, apt for the people in question. And leeches, as uzi noted, are “parasitic members of society.” These words are not meant as insults. They are just plain true. (again, thanks, uzi!)
But as for a “western work ethic,” that’s a nonsense term here. They have no work ethic. They don’t even have the Talmudic work ethic we might expect from them!
Actually, I’ll take fundamentalist back. If they were true fundamentalists, they might take the words they study to heart and do some work. As was well said in Jpost today, “One who replaces work with Torah study and lives from charity profanes God’s name, disgraces the Torah, extinguishes the light of the law.” That’s from the Rambam, by the way.
“These words are not meant as insults.”
Dude, at least be honest and take ownership for what you wrote, even if you stand by it and see nothing wrong with it.
And since we’re attacking people for their work ethic, or lack thereof, please share with us readers by what vocation do you support yourself, David? Do you make your living writing? Or do you have to supplement your income with other work?
Well, Fan Formerly Known as Former, I’m a student. My name here is my real name and my life is no secret on the internet. You can read a whole little bio of me at my personal blog: http://davidsaysthings.wordpress.com/what-is-this/
re: fundamentalist Mormons. I’m pretty sure Jamie meant the polygamous sects, who call themselves “fundamentalists” and who are excommunicated from the mainstream church. A lot of them are on welfare. The second, third, fourth and so on to the nth degree wives are unmarried in the legal sense and qualify for aid for themselves and their children.
Carry on …