Tokhakha (Rebuke) & Criticism of Israel
ìà –úùðà à ú–à çéê áìááê äåëç úåëéç à ú–òîéúê åìà –úùà òìéå çèà : ìà –ú÷à åìà –úèø à ú–áðé òîê åà äáú ìøòê ëîåê à ðé éäåä
Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your fellow. Do not bear that burden. Do not bear a grudge. Love your neighbor as yourself. I am God.
– åé÷øà éè ÷ãùéÃ
From this verse, we see that we rebuke in order to elevate the other. You point out their mistakes in order that they will improve. We see this from the line, “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
When I point out Israel’s mistakes, I do so because I love Israel.
T_M raises the quandry imposed by this stance:
This bombastic attack that suggests Israel is rotten to the core and is as immoral as a state can be is precisely the justification used by those who send suicide bombers, by those who refuse to give up the dream of destroying Israel, by those seeking to undermine the Jewish people’s natural right to self-determination, and by those who stand in numerous points of influence around the world attempting to speak out or take proactive steps against Israel.
And this is likely why, on the verse cited above, Rashi says,
åìà úùà òìéå çèà , ìà úìáéï à ú ôðéå áøáéÃ
Do not shame his face in public.
There is a problem inherent in keeping things “behind closed doors” as it were, however, for if there is no public discourse, then issues requiring serious attention go unnoticed or are easily & wilfully kept from view.
However, honesty, we find, is the best policy. Of Przysucha chasidut, my Rav, Mickey Rosen, wrote:
To be authentic meant to be truthful. In order to be truthful one had to be self-analytical, because only by being analytical could one clarify what one’s motive for doing something was. Was it motivated by pride, by fear? Or was it in a process of trying to be real? The enemy of truthfulness (especially in a religious context) was supposed piety. This included projecting an image of doing something for an external reason and it had to be eradicated. Ergo, one had to be in a continual state of self-analysis as to why one was doing what one was doing. […] Przysucha prodded, examined and tried to plummet the depths of personality to purify motive. And when one came to a state of realness, then nothing else was important, and who cared what anybody else thought?
If we are honest in our intentions—truly authentic—and we recognize our faults for the sake of growth, and we actually engage with these problems for the sake of correcting them, then we have naught to fear. Our enemies will fall by the wayside of truth. That is halakha.
Thus we ask, what is the value of reproof? In Arachin 16b, it is written:
It was taught [in a Baraitha]: R. Tarfon said, I wonder whether there is anyone in this generation who accepts reproof, for if one says to him: Remove the mote (splinter) from between your eyes, he would answer: Remove the beam from between your eyes! R. Eleazar b. Azariah said: I wonder if there is one in this generation who knows how to reprove! R. Johanan b. Nuri said: I call heaven and earth to witness for myself that often was Akiba punished through me because I used to complain against him before our Rabban, Gamliel Beribbi, and all the more he showered love upon me, to make true what has been said: Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee; reprove a wise man and he will love thee.
We see from this that Reb Akiva valued the rebuke offered by Reb Yochanan ben Nuri, because from it he was able to grow closer to authenticity and truth.
In terms of our recent discussion, I proffered the mote — my remarks about the fallacious nature of the arguments posed by several visitors on the “apartheid” thread, their race-biased dispositions, and the gravitas of the human rights situation at hand. In response, the argument became semantic as to the application of the term “apartheid”, and blocks of wood begun to get tossed about as my splinter was accused of fueling a fire.
I am left only to wonder, is there not wisdom in this generation?
[Update] Check out Cecilie Surasky’s recent column on MWU!
Every time a Gazan father faints as he watches his family home demolished; every time a Jew, Muslim or Christian is violently attacked by armed Israelis because they are non-violently protesting the separation wall; every time a rain of Israeli army bullets flies into the body of a young child on her way to school; every time a young Palestinian man is made to play violin by Israeli soldiers, or a pregnant woman dies at a checkpoint, Jews like us must speak out.
Remaining silent is no longer an option. We can no longer let our trauma, our deep fear of anti-Jewish hatred implanted in us through generations of persecution, make us remain quiet at the expense of truth.
“When I point out Israel’s mistakes, I do so because I love Israel.”
Yes, as I recall this was also your position during the past election when you would constantly criticize bush. You must have really loved bush because you would endlessly point out his mistakes and flaws.
Your hatred of israel is quite transparent, regardless of your silly “i bash em cuz i luv excuse.”
Much like with john kerry, who you did not “love” but still wanted to see succeed, you would rarely criticize him on your blog, despite him having countless flaws and problems.
If the one you love is up against adversity, you would not weaken your friends position by publicly pointing out his weaknesses.
Open up your eyes, you love neither the U.S. nor israel. What you love is some crazed socialist-arabist ideology, that you wish and pray both countries will adopt, but never will. What you love is france, and america and israel are not france. Sorry
Ooooh, French-loving. That’s quite the criticism since we all know France is the enemy of all that is right and good. And uh, why should we pay attention to anyone called “bukkake king?”
Criticism of Bush comes from a different place than criticism of Israel. Bush has very few redeeming qualities; Israel has very many.
France isnt the enemy of all that is good, but it is not israel and the U.S. And no matter how hard arab apologists and leftists want it, U.S. and israel will never be france.
“Criticism of Bush comes from a different place than criticism of Israel. Bush has very few redeeming qualities; Israel has very many.”
Funny, the criticisms sound quite similar.
When I point out Israel’s mistakes, I do so because I love Israel.
That’s great, and I really have no interest in questioning your love for Israel. What I don’t understand is how you define “love.” And on top of that, what good is your love or your rebukes if you only rebuke without offering real suggestions for change.
I find this incredulous.
Instead of answering my points in your apartheid post you just write another post.
I, like you, am uninterested in the semantecs of terminology and my points have not included that+.
Please answer my points or change your position.
Don’t be a faker.
what a pompous and thoroughly empty and unsatisfying post. You can judge if I’m saying this out of love.
Holier Than Thou
“”As much as I regret to say it, Israel’s own actions in the last 55 years undermine its credibility as a state.”
Those are your words Mobius, yes? Sounds like love? Let’s switch the wording just a tad…to a marriage:
“As much as I regret to say it, my husbands own actions in the last 55 years undermine his credibility as a human.”
Now she might state this if she beat his ass for 55 years…or raped children…or…or. But it ain’t love. It’s something far darker and sinister. So Mobius:
What would you have done in ’48, ’67, ’72 and, most recently, modern terrorism? Again, I ask you to play general for the sake of figuring out how you feel that Israel became something other than a state.
anyway, what’s most distressing is that we’re all focussing on these negatives when there is some real movement in terms of Palestinian-Israeli reconciliation. I’m sure we’re a long way off yet, but let’s not forget those things which deserve encouragement, not rebuke.
Hey, Mobius! Keep up the poetic polemics; they’re beautiful.
Love camouflages in hate. Israel does not need your love. Israel is not perfect by any means, i ask, find me a country who is!? Israel can not be compared to the USA or any other countries it is unique in almost all aspects. Israel is in a horrible situation, enemies surrounding it, enemies within it, country after country, UN sanction one after the other, giving the world reason to hate. What Israel doesn’t need are Jews back stabbing Israel. Being Palestinian spokesmen! Being a number one enemy! SO PLEASE I BEG OF YOU, STOP LOVING ISRAEL!! For you love is like poison.
“…it is unique in almost all aspects. Israel is in a horrible situation, enemies surrounding it, enemies within it”
And this is the heart of my argument. Which is why Dan, Asaf and Brown refuse to play arm-chair general. Because two things will happen:
1) They either will have to take a position not unlike the worst historical revisionists and claim that Israel was the aggressor in all of their wars, were expansionist from the get-go…basically erasing any semblance of normative Israel history.
2) They agree that Israel was repeatedly attacked…however this was legitimate because it was a colonialist experiement gone wrong. Hence, there should be no Israel.
Yes or no boys? I’m open to alternative military explanations/solutions. Because John Lennon love-ins and Chomsk-esque critiques aren’t very effective against a Soviet tank flying down the Golan. Know what I mean?
You know, a very short while ago, I posted on Jewlicious about the shame of Israeli banks being “slow” in paying off Holocaust survivors and heirs who had funds in the banks during WWII. Laya, one of our very worthwhile contributors (and she’s a hottie too!), angrily slammed me for being negative about Israel. I explained that the criticism is important because it is the right thing to do, and because it prevents even worse transgressions.
In other words, I agree with your post here (well, the reasonable part that doesn’t attack all the readers who don’t subsribe to your bullshit).
However, there is criticism and there is criticism.
You didn’t say that there is a problem in Israel with respect to discrimination and that it needs to be addressed and corrected. You see, I would agree with that statement.
No, you called Israel an apartheid state.
You didn’t just call it an apartheid state because of what happens inside the Green Line, but you included its actions inside the DISPUTED Territories – tracts of land that remain under conflict even according to the UN position on the matter.
So you have sinned twice. Once by making the extreme claim, and once by acting as if the situation in Israel proper and the Territories is equivalent. Extremism may get attention, as you prove here daily, but all it succeeds in doing is creating greater alienation between the sides who are at conflict, as well as those who may be on the same side but possess differing opinions.
I realize it will drive traffic down, but why don’t you stop using terms like apartheid, start talking using reasonable language and maybe you’ll have a case. Otherwise, you are no better than the worst Israel haters – yes, the ones who send or justify the suicide bombers – because you not only sound like them, you make it a point to shout out your lies from the rooftops.
Discrimination is something that can be fixed, especially if we are able to wind the conflict down. Apartheid is an endemic disease and can only be eradicated with significant surgery that might kill the patient.
I know you can figure this out, Mobius. Chill out, grab a beer, watch the super bowl, and then think carefully about how getting somewhere involved fairness to all sides, even the side that happens to be stronger. If you weaken it too much, aside from your intellectual dishonesty in the matter, you might contribute to the precipitation of a decline that might take things so far that the state you claim to love so much will no longer have a fighting chance to exist in the long run. Everything in moderation is a good motto.
“Otherwise, you are no better than the worst Israel haters – yes, the ones who send or justify the suicide bombers – because you not only sound like them, you make it a point to shout out your lies from the rooftops.”
As a side note, conspiracypenal.com…stormfront.org and David Irving’s site enjoy quoting Jews saying things like: Israel is a racist state, etc., etc. Again, if you truly feel that way, that’s one thing, but if you have doubts about using such loaded terms, you may want to think about the bigger picture…and the friends that you’re making.
I used to say that I criticized out of love, but the more I thought about it the more I realized that what I love are Jewish communities that are working to make the world better, not Jews qua Jews. Jews are not special by virtue of being Jews. We are as valuable as any other group of humanity. To consider that Jews deserve special treatment, especially when that special treatment is backed up by state power, is ethnocentric. So, I don’t think loving Israel should be a litmus test in our community. I looks to the ethnicity of the people involved, rather than their values and behavior. So, I love Israelis and Palestinians that are working for a peaceful end of the occupation. I don’t love (you may even say I hate) Israelis and Palestinians who are using violence to inflict their vision of ethnic nationalism onto others. I know this seems tangential, but I think its important that we think about why we require Jews to love Israel.
” I don’t love (you may even say I hate) Israelis and Palestinians who are using violence ”
You know, I don’t love cops that abuse their power because of some wacked sublimation for violence. However a cop that uses pepper spray…their gun…baton to protect, to defend…this I support fully.
So let’s graduate from grade 4 thinking. At times, violence is necessary. And I believe, that the IDF have used violence to best protect the citizens of Israel…Arab, Christian and Jew.
And while there’s exceptions to this rule, I believe they are few.
I just saw your update. Cecilie is wrong for many reasons, but you’ll notice how Jamal in the comments talks about how Israel’s very creation is an unethical one? That’s the guy whose back you’ve got Mobius. He doesn’t love Israel like you, but he sure sounds like you. At the end of the day, you and Cecilie simply enable Jamal. Now if Cecilie and you had some integrity, you would be writing long diatribes about the Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims out there who support suicide bombings and don’t allow much dissent on the matter. You’d be writing about the inescapable antisemitism couched under the guise of anti-Zionism that we see in Arab media, in Muslim mosques, in certain diplomatic circles, in the halls of the UN, and, increasingly, in our public discourse. You would be commenting about the current British government using antisemitic motifs against its Jewish Conservative opponents with the apparent hope that they could appeal to the larger (than the Jewish) Muslim voting block. You would be posting about the PA and its gross descriptions of Jews and its disgusting death cult. Etc., etc., etc. But you don’t. You call Israel an apartheid state and feed your site with a steady diet of anti-Israel propaganda. Perhaps you have too many left wing friends whom you are afraid to offend with the truth? Perhaps you condescend to the Arabs thinking they are not capable of compromise and therefore cannot be told to compromise. Perhaps you feel you’ve taken a certain position and now have to back it or look like a chump. I don’t know what it is. I do see it as hypocrisy.
“Perhaps you have too many left wing friends whom you are afraid to offend with the truth? ”
Talk about getting it BANG ON. It’s quite clear that to be a hip-cool Jew is to parrot certain lines. You read/see it all the time. That’s why sites like Jewlicious, the Ghetto Shul in Montreal…these things give me hope. They demonstrate that a proud Jew doesn’t always fit into a Woody Allen-esque nerd (Tho I love many of Allen’s films). Rather, as Jewlicious points out, frum women are often cool, hot and drive secular Jewish boys crazy (some of ’em anyhow). And that being proud of Israel, these days, is almost subversive. How odd.
Oy Moby… we really DO need to get a beer. I don’t know what to tell you folks. I know Moby cares for Judaism and I know he cares for Israel. However, even I have to wonder what the fuck it is he is thinking. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with being critical. There’s nothing wrong with having great aspirations for your people and your country. But dude… what on earth do you think you’re going to accomplish by using the inflamatory language you use, and the patently offensive and, no offense Moby, outright dumb and unimaginative ideas you throw out there.
I mean Israel is an apartheid state? That’s soooo 1970s. Look around you Moby – look at the variety around you – ethnic, racial, religious etc. We aiunt in no apartheid state. Open your eyes. Focus.
Oh and Go Patriots!
Ck, please do take him out for a beer or two. Man, the guy needs a serious talk.
“every time a rain of Israeli army bullets flies into the body of a young child on her way to school”
Wow, so Israeli soldiers practice shooting around Palestinian schools? The occupied territories are a continous Beslan or something?
“every time a young Palestinian man is made to play violin by Israeli soldiers”
Now, that’s really awful. The way Israeli soldiers act, you’d think that Palestinian terrorists would actually use a violin to carry a bomb.
That’s not fair, man. (You didn’t respond to my refutation of your points, by the way.) You’re being holier-than-thou. I criticize Israel too. But that doesn’t mean that I have to accept the argument that Israel is an apartheid state, because it is simply not supported by the facts, and it is more an attempt to use a scare word than to offer a real critique.
…you can’t be serious, man…
in israel’s defense
who’s bollah is it anyway?
the israel apartheid question
is the tide turning?
abbas wups ass in pa elections
a world without israel
one good reason why jews don’t trust the un
un report to icj on fence ignores terror
tell the un to stop ignoring palestinian attacks on civillians
arafat greatest threat to mideast peace
once again, antisemitism and the left
why jews should embrace islamic moderates
read those posts and tell me i hate israel, i support terrorism, and that i cop to a hip-jew agenda.
Mobius, if nothing else, you’re proving that your politics are so biopolar in nature that nothing you post can really be taken seriously. Again, these are your words:
“As much as I regret to say it, Israel’s own actions in the last 55 years undermine its credibility as a state.”
So since 1950 i.e. pre 1967…pre “occupation”, you believe that Israel is something other than a state. Ok, then what is it? And…why would you waste community dollars (I’m assuming Dorot is partially funded) to visit something that lost it’s credibility in 1950? It’s all very confusing.
And while you haven’t answered my question (and of course you don’t have to), I’m still curious about:
If you were a minister in the Knesset in ’48, or ’67, or ’72 and/or had the power to do something about modern terrorism….what would you have done?
I think that you don’t really know what you think. That’s not a slam. But at some point you need to grow up intellectually – ya you got chops, but you seem to have a devil of a time writing a decent tune with what you got. In the real world you got to pick a side or you just cancel your own opinions out and nobody is the better for it. Not you, not the dear readers of Jewschool, and not the state of Israel.
I agree with confused.
Dan, you’re one of the most talented Jewish web designers I know, inspirationally proactive in whatever art form you decide to pick up, and bright. But like Confused stated, “you seem to have a devil of a time writing a decent tune”. Well put.
Okay, so I’ve read those posts. Dude, on the one hand you talk apartheid and on the other hand you tell somebody that Tel Aviv is a bitchin’ place to party. You call Israel a state that has called its own existence into question but you acknowledge that there is terror against it and some organizations ignore the terror. You’ll forgive me, okay, but Mobius, these little tidbits do not compare to the whole apartheid or existence accusations. Okay? When you talk about it being an apartheid state and you question its very existence, you actually justify the terrorism. It’s being ignored by the UN and you don’t want a double standard? Okay. But you have justified the terror. I mean, if I hear of a country born of sin that practices apartheid, I might justify terror too if I thought it would bring it to its knees. In fact, that is Jamal’s point in the link you gave and he explicitly wants Israel to be a state of the historical past.
Israel is far from perfect. It has significant problems. However, you need to own your comments. You are talking about apartheid in a state that appoints an Arab Supreme Court justice? Do you realize the absurdity? Have you walked through Hebrew U. recently? Are you blind to the Arab students there? is it an apartheid state that is subsidizing their education? I agree with half of what Confused says. I disagree with the part about cancelling yourself out. I believe the anti-Israel sentiments you express are far worse than any positive remarks you make about Israel. Seriously, who gives a shit if a happening music scene exists in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, or that Arafat was an asshole murderer, if Israel is an apartheid state that shoots little Palestinian kids in their school classrooms?
It’s okay to criticize…but there’s criticism and there’s criticism.
You call Israel a state that has called its own existence into question but you acknowledge that there is terror against it and some organizations ignore the terror. You’ll forgive me, okay, but Mobius, these little tidbits do not compare to the whole apartheid or existence accusations. Okay? When you talk about it being an apartheid state and you question its very existence, you actually justify the terrorism.
First of all, I said that Israel has “undermined its credibility” — not invalidated its right to existence. The two are not the same thing and I reject both Shtreimel’s and your own repeated distortion of that remark. To have one’s credibility undermined is to have their motives questioned: not their right to exist. If, for example, a person raises funds under the auspices of providing charity to the families of 9/11 victims, and instead embezzles that money, that person still has a right to exist, but henceforth, the purity of their motives will be called into question. That is not to prevent that person from going about their life, but to keep them in check, as it were, to insure that they are acting with the most righteous intention, for their own benefit and for everyone else’s.
It’s being ignored by the UN and you don’t want a double standard? Okay. But you have justified the terror. I mean, if I hear of a country born of sin that practices apartheid, I might justify terror too if I thought it would bring it to its knees. In fact, that is Jamal’s point in the link you gave and he explicitly wants Israel to be a state of the historical past.
Welp, I’m a person who doesn’t find violence to be justifiable except in the case of self-defense, which I don’t find attacks on innocent civilians to be expressions of. Ergo, terror is unjustifiable. Non-violent resistance, on the other hand, is entirely justifiable, and I lament the lack of focus on that issue, as there is way more non-violent resistance taking place in the occupied territories which receives virtually no press coverage whatsoever because only bloodshed sells newspapers and serves the dominator culture’s political interests. But I digress… I don’t believe Israel ought to be “brought to its knees,” but I believe its practice of institutionalized discrimination ought to be.
Israel is far from perfect. It has significant problems. However, you need to own your comments. You are talking about apartheid in a state that appoints an Arab Supreme Court justice? Do you realize the absurdity? Have you walked through Hebrew U. recently? Are you blind to the Arab students there? is it an apartheid state that is subsidizing their education?
Hence why I agree that apartheid is a misnomer, but the two cases you cite are not enough to wipe away the systematic discrimination that is in effect here. Henceforth, I will opt, at Sam’s recommendation, Jeff Halper’s suggested term, nishul.
I believe the anti-Israel sentiments you express are far worse than any positive remarks you make about Israel. Seriously, who gives a shit if a happening music scene exists in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, or that Arafat was an asshole murderer, if Israel is an apartheid state that shoots little Palestinian kids in their school classrooms?
I give a shit. Because a nation is not merely its government’s actions alone. A nation is comprised of individual people, families, and communities, which all have their own intentions and purposes which are not necessarily exemplified by the actions of their government. And I know this, because, as an American citizen, I was utterly opposed to America’s invasion of Iraq and the senseless killing which has transpired there in the name of democracy and freedom. Those actions do not represent the intentions of me, my family, nor my community, and thus we can not be held directly responsible for them. Thus my criticism of Israel is not necessarily directed at Israel as an entity in-and-of-itself, nor necessarily of its citizens, but rather only the proponents and adherents of the philosophy which allow such unjust policies to be carried out. In this case, that would be the functioning “State” of Israel and its unquestioning and/or gung-ho citizens and supporters.
Again, does that invalidate their right to exist? Certainly not. It is simply a demand for righteousness in their intentions, and especially so because, as a member of “the nation” of Israel, the actions of this government and its citizens and supporters reflects upon me.
“Not in our name…”
“undermined its credibility”
I never recveived a reply on how many other ‘democratic’ countries have “undermined its credibility” with their laws. Like France destroying the entire Ivory Coast air force because it mistakenly or not killed some french legionaires. Or the United States of America, well, ’nuff said.
Why do you think that Israel still has to prove itself? No other country created in the 20th century has to deal with credibility problems, only Israel from anti-semites and Jews who have perceived personal image problems because of Israeli policy. John Brown admitted it, so has Asaf. Israeli policy worries them because it affects their image.
“I never recveived a reply on how many other ‘democratic’ countries have “undermined its credibility” with their laws.”
For starters, Russia, France and the US. Israel is in good company, eh? And once Zimbabwe, Kajikistan and Malaysia democratize, Israel will be in even better company!
“I never recveived a reply on how many other ‘democratic’ countries have “undermined its credibility” with their laws.”
Great question. Could Mobius, or anyone else, provide us with a list of countries, democratic or otherwise, past or present, which have NOT undermined their credibility?
I have never posted on this site before, but I felt compelled to share, as I might be the only person who sides with Mobius. I wanted to expand on the theme of Criticism against Israel because I feel that Mobius is mis-understood.
I really don’t think that Mobius criticises Israel because he has some Portnoy’s Complaint symptoms. I truly think Mobius has love for the country, and the people, whatever his view is. This is clear to me because of the immense time and effort put into this site, which displays that Israel is prominent in his head at all times.
As for the “we don’t need your type of love” arguments. Being critical of past actions is absolutely imperative for progress, and it is absolutely important to understand dissenting views. I don’t mean just reading the negative views of Israel, I mean taking the time to understand where those views come from, and the cause and effect of Israeli actions on her neighbors.
I think what Mobius implied (and I’m sure he will agree with me) is that the whole point of asking the “tough questions” about Israel is so that we can learn from our past mistakes. Israel is not infallible, and neither are Jews. We all know that Israel has definitely done it’s share of dirty deeds, and it is our responsibility to think critically about our past actions in order to understand what effect they have had, so we are not doomed to repeat the mistakes.
I love the site, please keep up the good work, and I invite you to check out ours: http://www.newzionist.com
I understand Mobius perfectly. Any reasonable American with love for their country would.
I think what Mobius implied (and I’m sure he will agree with me) is that the whole point of asking the “tough questions” about Israel is so that we can learn from our past mistakes. Israel is not infallible, and neither are Jews. We all know that Israel has definitely done it’s share of dirty deeds, and it is our responsibility to think critically about our past actions in order to understand what effect they have had, so we are not doomed to repeat the mistakes.
That would fine Yoav, if you and mobius and your fellow travellers would stand up clearly and say that you support the right of Israel to exits as a Jewish state (or state of the Jews of you will) in the Jewish people’s historical homeland. As it stands, you folks are generally found shoulder-to-shoulder with the Free Palestine crowd, breaking bread with those who wish Palestine to be free from the river to the sea.
Perhaps if you guys tried a little harder to gain credibility with the crowd whose opinions you need to change and influence (the *pro-israel* types) rather than pander to the leftist/progressive/arab/muslim/anti-Israel folks, you might convince open minded people like myself that you are in it for reasons other than gratification of your own ego.