I agree with you Dan. I don’t see much of a difference between the comments on Stormfront and Little Green Footballs. Actually, I took it as a compliement when Charles banned my ass.

The funny thing is that a lot of Cox & Forkum’s cartooning seems to be directly inspired by Nazi Propaganda – see http://www.drmenlo.com/lgfquiz/slideshow1.html
Put them side by side and it almost becomes a “separated at birth” sorta thing
I doubt Cox & Forkum actually plagiarized Der Sturmer (!) but they are drinking from the same stream.

You hit the nail on the head Moby. Fabulous post.
If anyone is interested in seeing some of the crap (crap that brillianitly illustrates Moby’s point, incidently) I’ve had to put up with since my name appeared on the General’s blog, you’ve invited here: http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2006/01/word-to-bitter-man.html

I’m not going to defend every last comment by a right-winger on the net, but let’s get two things straight. First, the Right has no monopoly on spew. I’m trying to remember how often President Clinton during his eight years was compared to Hitler. A lot less than Bush has been during his five years. And some on the Left seem to have no problem calling others names like “Brownshirts”. Imagine that.
Second, while some right-wing comments pass the boundaries of good taste (or worse), we need to remember that there is a war going on in which the enemy has no compunctions in who they murder, or how. The anger, and, yes, hatred against this enemy is fully justified. And it is reasonable to include among the enemy those who celebrate when the enemy commits its atrocities, and those who aid the enemy in any way.
When you see a World War Two era poster that mentions “Japs”, you may not fully approve, but at the least you ought to understand that such posters, and the atmosphere they created, played an important role in sustaining the motivation to defeat the Axis. Could the war have been won without such crude propaganda? Probably, but it would be churlish to second guess the Americans of 1942, who didn’t have the benefits of a 2006 history book to tell them that they’d ulimately win.
So while some of the spew is out of bounds, many of the jokes and remarks are passable, if not ideal. The Rachel Corrie pancake jokes are not in the best of taste, but aren’t crimes, either. Corrie deliberately endandered the lives of Israeli soldiers by keeping them in a dangerous area longer than they had to be, and served the propaganda interests of the murderers of our children. I for one am glad she’s dead, and I look forward to the rest of her compatriots sharing her fate.
As for this-
“Palestinian solidarity activists write things like, “Through [Mobius’] passionate writing about Israel not only have we come to see a different side of the country, but a different side of the people who live there.” The critical views for which my fellow Jews damn me have helped humanize Israelis and Israel’s supporters by showing that we are not a chorus of right-wing lunatics screaming for Arab blood.”
Gee. Maybe if we all line up to beg these “solidarity activists” (try “apologists for murder”) to like us, they’ll finally recognize our humanity and stop the killing. The underlying assumption here is that there’s some good reason our humanity wasn’t recognized in the first place. Well, enough of that. The only way Israel will survive long-term is if its enemies become convinced that it cannot be cowed or defeated. The way to accomplish this is to beat them back, brutally, at each and every provocation, to the point that such retaliations become as predictable as the sunrise. Wake up. They aren’t going to love us no matter what we do. They can, however, be made to fear us. If the fear and retaliation can be sustained long enough that the Arabs’ ambitions to destroy Israel seem to them to become unattainable, we may finally see true peace.

Josh-
I can’t agree with your “goyim” point. My post above dealt with those non-Jews who hate and murder Jews. So while your German example is fine, it’s grossly unjust (and against our interests) to compare the haters and murderers to, say, American non-Jews. While morally speaking, Jews need not justify their existence to non-Jews, for practical purposes we at the very least do need to favorably impress the American voter (though this need not, and should not, be done in a servile way).

Mobius says:
Personally, I agree wholeheartedly with Dov Bear’s contention that websites which seethe hatred for Palestinians, and which callously ridicule the deaths of Palestinian solidarity activists, do little to advocate for Israel.
Well, Mobius, we have to ridicule the enemy. The enemy attempts to sow fear into our hearts, and making fun of them alleviates that fear. We cannot be fearful of our enemies, if we are to deliver a crushing blow to them.
Mobius says:
Does preaching hate to the hateful masses do anything to improve Israel’s image before its detractors? Does anyone honestly believe that “Rachel Corrie pancake” jokes turn anti-Zionists into friends of Israel?
Why in the world should anyone care about what the anti-zionists think? Does it matter what the nazis think? Does it matter what the klansmen think? Maybe you should try and get their perspective on the matter. It’s time we as Jews moved beyond trying to build up a positive image of ourselves in the eyes of people who hate us. It’s time for a militant, relentless and assertive defense of our people. (No less assertive than the attacks against our people.) By the way, I think that the Corrie jokes are fucking hilarious. I mean, what could be funnier than a stupid terrorist bitch jumping under a bulldozer? What is truly obscene is the fact that that worthless animal had the name of our mother Rachel.
Mobius says:
While I get called a “self-hating Jew” and an “LLL moonbat” by right-wing bloggers and readers, Palestinian solidarity activists write things like, “Through [Mobius’] passionate writing about Israel not only have we come to see a different side of the country, but a different side of the people who live there.”
Wow, you have gained the sympathy of our enemies. How commendable. I suppose a Jew in the Middle Ages gained a similar kind of sympathy from his Gentile neighbors by converting to Christianity. Maybe you’ll get them to stop trying to destroy Israel now? Have you ever considered that the reason those delightful people like you is PRECISELY because you are a self-hating Jew?
Mobius says:
The critical views for which my fellow Jews damn me have helped humanize Israelis and Israel’s supporters by showing that we are not a chorus of right-wing lunatics screaming for Arab blood.
Who, in the end, is truly a better advocate for Israel?
Mobius, this may surprise you, but the world is a changing place. The Americans, the Europeans, the Australians, the Indians, the Russians and many, many others are starting to get fed up with moslem terrorism, violence, crime and ignorance. Your politically correct views will soon be as obsolete as the belief that the Earth is flat. What we as a people need to do to seize the momentum and join the global resistance against the encroaching moslem hordes. While the insane leftist hippies are still very prominent in academia and the media around the world, the situation will certainly change in the future. The problem with your “critical views” is that you confirm the slanderous accusations against Israel. You also condemn Israel for the MINIMAL actions it takes to stem the level of anti-jewish violence by the enemy. Furthermore, you are attempting to “humanize” Israel in the eyes of truly contemptible people. Your efforts lead to their legitimization and the horrific propaganda that they spread.
BTW, I am not screaming for Arab blood, and neither are the overwhelming majority of right-wing Jews. We just want a pragmatic solution to the problem which is something that the Left has miserably failed to come up with. If you think about it, we are the genuine peace camp, because true right wing policies (not the kind of policies Israel has ever implemented) will lead to a realistic peace. Once the Arab countries have no ability to deliver a military strike against Israel, and once the hostile Arabs are out of Israel, there will simply be nothing to fight about.

J: I also challange you to prove that ISM supported terror and if you can’t than you should admit your hatred of Corrie is irrational and unfounded. You often pose as a moderate, but given your inability to distinguish between Palestinians and Palestinian terrorist and your hateful comments and accusations toward Corrie I am beginning to question this presumption and others should as well.
So far the only accusations of terror I have found origninate from known liars Richard Perle and David Frum.

Dameocrat Says:
J: Rachel endangered soldiers by not allowing them to knock down Palestinian houses for no reason? She didn’t protect terrorist. She was defending the rights of ordinary Palestinians. You actually believe all Palestinians should be treated as terrorists and that is the problem.
No reason? Are you sure? For one thing Corrie belonged to ISM – an organization that prides itself on impeding anti-terrorist operations by the Israeli army. The result could have been (and probably was) the chance that was given to the terrorists to escape the justice to be delivered by the IDF. By their actions ISM also probably contributed to enhancing the terrorists’ ability to conceal bomb-making labs and endangered the lives of Israeli soldiers. In other words, they supported the terrorists indirectly, sort like the way German companies indirectly participated in the Holocaust. That is not to say that there is no possibility that the ISM directly participated in terrorist atrocities against Israel, however they will surely deny it.
But the real issue here is not the stupid girl named Rachel Corrie. The real issue is Rachel Corrie the symbol, ie the pure innocent American girl who sacrificed her life for the rights of poor, ancient “Palestinians”. It is this symbol that Israel-haters consistently and ruthlessly use to hurt and delegitimize the State of Israel and her armed forces. That is precisely why Rachel Corrie-the-symbol is the legitimate target of the jokes. Once Israel-haters stop using Rachel Corrie as their poster-child-martyr, there will be no need for such jokes.

Mobius says:
j, josh, sheikh, et al.: our “enemies” want civil, democratic, and economic rights; the ability to put food on their tables and send their children to school; to be compensated for the homes they lost or be given the right to return to them; and to be treated as human beings with moral decency.
Mobius, there is one very good word that has been consistently used against the right wing “heretics” in the West, and that word is “Eurocentric.” That is precisely the word I am going to use to describe you. You are indeed Eurocentric, because you only want to view our Arab culture from your own Western perspective. You are only willing to compare the Arabs to yourself, you are not willing to acknowledge the fact that the things that they want may be totally different from what you want. You may want civil, democratic and economic rights, and they may want to die for Allah. You may want equality; they want to dominate of the other. They believe that their, and only their way of life is correct and they will do anything (including committing suicide) to force it on others. Of course there may be a significant proportion of their population that is indeed peaceful, and wants many of the things that you just mentioned. The question then becomes, what is the proportion of those peaceful, democracy-leaning Arabs to Islamofacists and Arab Nationalists. I can cite many surveys and statistics that show that the latter is the majority. However, let’s first look at it from different perspective. It is well known that a significant proportion of Germans opposed Hitler and his policies. Arguably, even those who voted for Hitler did not necessarily support a genocide against the Jews. However, at this point of history, we can say that there were definitely ENOUGH Germans who supported Hitler to perpetrate a horrific genocide against our people. Now, the question that I might pose to you at this point is, if the Arabs had sufficient power over us, would they do the same? If one takes into account the current trends in Arab societies, the answer would be a resounding YES. How did I reach this chilling conclusion? Well, for starters you might take a look at the video section of MEMRI.org http://www.memri.org/video/index.html Please, pay attention to the propaganda that is being disseminated through Arab media outlets. That propaganda is primitive even by Nazi standards, and definitely no less hateful. That is what the Arab masses are being fed with on a daily basis. In addition, there have been numerous surveys that indicate a strong support for suicide bombings which could easily be classified as acts of genocide. And also, don’t forget that the leader of the Palestinian Authority just happens to be a Holocaust Denier. I could go on with this for hours… Let me just cite a verse from a Moslem hadith that theoretically should give you some food for thought: “The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: ‘Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'” (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)
Mobius says:
since we group them all together as terrorists instead
I have to disagree with you there as well. Most western governments and the Israeli government have been very careful to distinguish between the “good” Moslems and the “bad” Moslems.
Mobius says:
, for the actions of their wildest elements, and use that fabrication as a pretext to deny them their rights, they become emboldened, resistant, frustrated, and violent.
Again, we have to ask what proportion of their population is represented by their “wildest element” Also, keep in mind that the kind of violence that we see perpetrated against Israelis is commonplace all over the Arab Middle East. That violence just could be a part of the culture; however, since we are enlightened and politically correct, we shall never acknowledge it.
Mobius says:
this is the obvious fact to the sensible members of the left, who you see as european antisemites lining up to light the fires of auschwitz. where you look at palestinians and see genocidal antisemites, i see desperate people grasping at straws. acknowledging that fact is not rolling over and saying, “kill me.” it’s recognizing that your narrative is insufficient and unable to adequately address the present conflict in any terms other than xenophobia and nationalism.
There is absolutely nothing sensible about vicious, hostile anti-Israel propaganda that permeates the American and European media and campuses. The Rachel Corrie phenomenon is a good example of it. The “desperate people” argument has been overused and proven totally false. Many studies have shown that suicide bombers come from middle and upper-class backgrounds. The only thing they are desperate for is to die for Allah. Your narrative proves your inability to acknowledge both local and global trends and come up with an appropriate solution. In fact, anyone who is able to acknowledge it is going to fall under your category of “xenophobic.” Maybe, just maybe Jewish nationalism is going to provide the solution for the present conflict?

Mobius — What has led you to conclude Corrie committed suicide?

I can’t find the link, but I read that what really happened with Rachel Corrie is that she was standing atop a high hill or wall of dirt, fell down, and was therefore unseen by the soldier who ACCIDENTALLY ran over her. I understand that the type of vehicle he was operating has a very narrow vision field, which further compounded the problem. But it was an accident. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn’t a clue as to what kind of soldiers we have in this country. They are by and far some of the most heartbreakingly decent, moral guys in the world.

Sheesh, I hope this doesn’t get me banned, but although SheikhYahudi is probably far to the right of me, I have to say that he presented some fairly strong and compelling points about numerous topics. It’s your right not to answer or to ban or to do whatever, but his comments show some smarts.

Obviously, my site, The Muqata is the best Israel advocate possible 😉
Advocacy is a function of your worldview in any case. Is Haaretz the ultimate Isarel advocate (ever hear a good word from Amira Hass or Gideon Levy?) Maybe the JPost…or Yediot? Or Meretz or Moledet?
Each advocates their own world view.

No one should need Jewschool to show them that all Israelis and/or Zionists are not monsters. All anyone needs to do is look at the polls that show that the average Israelis wants a two-state solution as long as their security can be guaranteed. There are also plenty of web sites and blogs of liberal and moderate Jews and Israelis all over the Internet. Anyone who only reads right-wingers is not looking very hard or wants their steretypes enforced.
I feel that I am stuck in the middle of this argument in some ways. I don’t think that suicide bombings are exclusively or even mainly about desperation. They must be hopeful that their death would accomplish something or they are simply brainwashed. A psychiatrist who studied terrorists found that they were motivated to join terrorist groups for the similar reasons to reasosns that people join cults. Once one is a member, there is a sense of solidarity and bonding within the group and this as much as anything else motivates suicide bombers to go through with it.
Mobius, you are also ignoring the hatred and antisemitism that pervades the entire Arab and Muslim world. I don’t know how Jews can prove that they are not part of a conspiracy if someone is determined to believe it. I doubt that even the end of the Palestinian – Israelis conflict will end this antisemitism because it is motivated by many things that have nothing to do with the conflict. It is much easier for a leader of an Arab or Muslim country to blame the Jews than to fix the economy.
I don’t think that Jews should be celebrating anyone’s death, but you are turning Rachel Corrie into a martyr and I don’t think that she was a martyr. There is a middle ground. I don’t think that Israel should have bulldozed houses, but that does not turn Rachael Corrie into a martyr. She was more of a dupe of the ISM than a martyr.

Mobius, I just reread sheikhyahudi’s post, the one which prompted you to call him contemptible, disgusting, and scary- and I must say you disappoint me. There was not one thing in that post which warranted any of those names. He actually made some very logical points. I wonder if you realized this as well, causing you to rethink your whole theory in the Corrie matter, which caused you some internal turmoil and made you resort to such name calling?
Obviously this is your blog and you can do whatever you want. But however uneasy that post made you, it DID make sense, by any objective standard. I admit I have never been a fan of Corrie’s, but sheikh brought up a logic chain I had not even considered. Take a moment to think about it and maybe you’ll realize that what he said had some value.
By the way, I do commend you for keeping this discussion head and shoulders above some other nasty ones out there on this subject.

Fair enough, I didn’t comment on the Shaikh’s comments. However, I did note they were to the right of my views.
Your response to my comment is to say that Oslo made things worse for the Palestinians. Perhaps it did, but that again was the design of the Palestinians, not the Israelis. If you consider the manner in which they used suicide bombings to influence elections. Or the manner in which they used rhetoric in international fora even as they were supposedly negotiating for peace. Or if you look at their media and the manner in which they attacked Israel (if they even called it that), you come away with the inescapable conclusion that increased separation from Israel was their own doing.
Now I have to add that it’s easy to blame Arafat and the leadership, but as the polls showed, the street supported the fighting and wars.
You keep evading the basic problem with your thesis. They and the Israelis are fighting over the same piece of land. If that is the case, then even when economic times improve considerably, the conflict will not be over. Just so you know, I’ve argued this position as well, that as the economy improves, most Palestinians will come to terms with their new status and strive to build their lives. The problem is that they do not seem willing to take the steps necessary to become a state and I think it’s because they wish to avoid closing the option of one day usurping the Jews in Israel.
As for the labels, feel free to call me a brownshirt, a right winger, a lapsed progressive, and evil-doer, a lousy Zionist, or whatever. That’s all fine and good. You should know, however, that there are probably superior forms of therapy out there.

They can have all the civil rights they want. They can have those civil rights in a Palestinian state, not a Jewish one. Why not a Jewish one? Because we have a right to self-determination. I find it incredible that I should have to keep restating this, but frankly, this is where all the “progressive” criticism has brought us – to having to justify the existence of a perfectly legitimate existence.
You can see in Gaza where their civil rights are. Israel isn’t in there at all at this point. Yet, take a look. For many reasons, the West Bank (Judea and Samaria, for those who prefer) will be harder to give them, but especially in view of how things in Gaza are playing out.
Oh, did I mention the Palestinians were offered a state in 2000?
By the way, you can label my politics any which way you’d like, but I am fairly confident that I’m a creature of the center with respect to this conflict. Two state solution; the right to a normal life for the Palestinians in a state they can call their own; sympathy for those Palestinians caught in the crossfire of a much larger conflict; a strong desire for peace combined with a willingness to give up a great deal to achieve it.
What I’m not, however, is naive enough to think that walking around proclaiming that Israel commits war crimes is doing a mitzvah or belongs in the category of Israel Advocacy. Quite the opposite.

Defend indiscriminately bulldozing 2,500 homes, making 15,000 people homeless and killing hundreds in the process (including three foreign anti-occupation activists).
Um, this statement is full of inaccuracies. Do you need me to correct you or are you going to correct yourself, Mr. Israel Advocate?

Um, from your vaunted HRW (how did they vote in Durban, Mobius, and why?): “Unless otherwise stated, statistics for homes demolished and persons rendered homeless were provided by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) based mostly on assessments by its social workers.”
Wow, a real trustworthy source they used. Remember Peter Hanson, former head of UNWRA? Here’s what he said to the CBC, “Oh I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don’t see that as a crime. Hamas as a political organization does not mean that every member is a militant and we do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another.”
Take a look at this article by the Christian Science Monitor: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1029/p07s01-wome.html
The Rafah Governorate says Israel has completely demolished more than 1,200 houses, including 266 in this month’s incursion. Israel’s tally for this month is closer to 45, the officer says. “Wherever we found a tunnel, the house was demolished. Every house that was involved in shooting against the forces was demolished.”
Hmmmm, trustworthy numbers. By the way, the same incident had UNWRA counting 88 demolished houses while the IDF said 40. Later, UNWRA revised its statement down to…45.
That CS Monitor article has an anonymous Israeli officer telling them that houses were destroyed if they were abandoned or had tunnels inside them. Hmmm, he must be lying because Human Rights Watch (how did they act at Durban and why?) says so…on the basis of information given them by workers at UNWRA.
Yes, you got the number of dead wrong, as well as how they died. You also gave the false impression the dead were just killed as part of some maniacal home demolition spree by the Israelis. That is false, of course.
You got “indiscriminately” wrong.
You got “hundreds killed in the process” wrong.
You got the “15000 homeless” wrong. You also got that one out of context.
Basically, you got it all wrong in a frantic attempt to make a point. And you went to another, heavily trafficked site, and proclaimed that not only was this done by Israel but it constitutes a war crime.
Bravo, Mobius! You are a true advocate for peace, reconciliation, truth and justice. Yup, you must be a progressive.

Mobius, nobody here is saying that homes weren’t being demolished. I claimed your numbers are wrong and the insinuation that somehow deaths were caused because of this was wrong as well. Also, although they have destroyed homes – not as part of any policy – that should not have been destroyed, for the most part, homes were destroyed because of military necessity such as the smuggling of arms.
That makes all the difference in the world.
I am glad to see that you’re not challenging the other points any more.
I think what I’m trying to tell you is that we have a fundamental disagreement about what is best for Israel. You think that ongoing mea culpas, even when unwarranted, and self-immolation will somehow represent us as good people to the rest of the world and will even open a dialogue with moderate Palestinians.
I say that while we should acknowledge our faults, honesty and truth should guide us, not making a good impression on other folks. If something nasty that happens in a war is justified, then maybe it’s nasty, but there is no reason to apologize. The Israelis have a lot to be sorry about, but this is a war and they are doing their best to protect their country and people.