Israel Channel 2 News: What "natural growth"?
Israel’s Channel 2 news, one of the two largest TV news channels, ran this investigative story on “natural growth” in the West Bank recently, on which Netanyahu’s government refused to comment. There is no such thing as natural growth, it is a figment Israeli governments invented as an excuse which nobody, not even the Israeli media, is willing to buy.
Those homes cost too much. If they can bring the prices down to $60-80k for a 2 bedroom home, I’d buy one.
They’d give you one for free if you like, albeit in more isolated settlements.
Oh, and PurpleMan, I’m not going to pay for you to be relocated after you invest 80K in a pipe dream.
I won’t pay for you to be relocated either.
But, PM, by moving to the territories, you are helping to ensure that the state of Israel will become an apartheid nation, one without an overwhelmingly Jewish population. Is this the kind of place we dreamt about for 2,000 years?
and people like Amit (i.e., Israeli citizens) have to subsidize the purchase and eventually pay for the relocation.
or American citizens will pay for it.
KFJ, there are also 3 major TV news channels, not two (channels 1, 2, and 10).
by moving to the territories, you are helping to ensure that the state of Israel will become an apartheid nation
Oh no, not the apartheid card again! My bleeding heart just can’t take another minute of abuse! Have you even been to the West Bank? The Palestinians in “refugee camps” are living better than half the Israelis I know!
Is this the kind of place we dreamt about for 2,000 years?
I haven’t been alive for 2000 years, but I’m pretty sure being under perpetual attack and rocket bombardment wasn’t in the dream either. You have good intentions, Jonathan, a good heart.
Where did we get this idea that Palestinians have a right to vote in a Jewish state? That’s not a Jewish concept, and its not a realist concept. Just a bus ride away is a beautiful country of Jordan, the home of millions of Palestinians, where any West Bank or Gaza Palestinian with a hawiye can get a passport and citizenship practically overnight. If they want to live in Israel fine, but they can vote in Jordan or not vote at all. Apartheid is black water fountains and white water fountains, and not even Kahane suggested or imagined we build those.
Speaking of Jordan, a Hashemite minority rules a Palestinian majority, yet no one calls that apartheid. Interesting how the “A” word is throw around for maximum propaganda value in support of Jewish retreat and perpetual war, and you and Justin propose nothing less.
people like Amit (i.e., Israeli citizens) have to subsidize the purchase and eventually pay for the relocation
Poor, poor Amit! We on the other side have to pay taxes for securing the country from lunatics that Amit encourages with his defeatist appeasement rhetoric, so it all evens out in the end.
And to tie it all up, the absolute LAST thing I would want, if Israel is ever stupid enough to allow a Pali state, is for poor Amit to pay for my “relocation”. Didn’t you hear, the Palestinians would love to have us “West Bank” Jews stay in our homes, and I would be happy to oblige.
After all, we Palestinian Jews will enjoy the same benefits as Israeli Arabs in Israel – minority status, affirmative action, no military service, etc. Perhaps we’ll even demarcate Jewish religious sites and close them to Muslims.
Now all I need is a beautiful, loving Jewish woman who loves kids as much as I do, and perhaps in my lifetime that Palestinian state will not be Palestinian. I think many of you should join me. Progressive Jews are extraordinarily gifted at using the racism card, and a Jewish minority in an Arab majority nation will need that card early and often.
Can you imagine the firestorm the first time a Jewish yeshiva is denied construction rights in the center of Sinjil? Hahaha! You know you want in on that.
To Purpleman: You ask “Have you even been to the West Bank? The Palestinians in “refugee camps” are living better than half the Israelis I know!”
Well I have been many times. I have seen electricity and satellite TV. But often very restricted running clean water. I have seen nobody in these camps (let alone all of them as you imply) living better than 1/2 the Israelis (who have a relatively high average income of 7,200NIS/month). This statement of yours’ is so silly it almost does not deserve a reaction.
You also state:”Just a bus ride away is a beautiful country of Jordan, the home of millions of Palestinians, where any West Bank or Gaza Palestinian with a hawiye can get a passport and citizenship practically overnight”.
I wish I knew upon what you base this assertion. Indeed there is an arrangement that allows for a limited passport to be obtained (there needs to be some way to travel). But Jordanian citizenship is not available to the vast majority of residents of the West Bank.
You state:”Speaking of Jordan, a Hashemite minority rules a Palestinian majority, yet no one calls that apartheid”.
Maybe this is because your implication of “rule” is that they discriminate against those who are not Hashemaite. Yes, those with Royal connections have it better. But Jordan is far (relatively speaking) from an Apartheid state.
You state: “We on the other side have to pay taxes for securing the country from lunatics that Amit encourages with his defeatist appeasement rhetoric, so it all evens out in the end.”
Yes- and Israel benefits from the cheap labor and the appropriated lands. So you are right-it evens out.
You state: “a Jewish minority in an Arab majority nation will need that card early and often”.
Maybe so. But there are very few Jews left in Arab countries. They are in danger in Yemin, but the government does its best to protect them. So too in Iran(I am NOT suggesting that Iran is not an evil regime). And the Jews are certainly protected in Morocco.
I do think the idea of natural growth is a canard. Over 1/3 of the growth is made up of new arrivals. If my home in Jerusalem is too crowded, or new homes are unavailable to my children, they move elsewhere. I would,however, allow for the expansion of cemeteries,clinics, and the like.
Finally, you state “being under perpetual attack and rocket bombardment…”
Far be it from me, who lives in Israel, to suggest that there is no danger or threat from residents of the West Bank. But it has been many years (if ever) since a rocket was launched.
Have you even been to the West Bank? The Palestinians in “refugee camps” are living better than half the Israelis I know!
I also have been to refugee camps, particularly the ones in Ramallah, East Jerusalem and Bethlehem.
This particular statement makes me want to cry. What a shadow of a reality your imagined world is. What utter, utter crap. THIS is why people reach absurd conclusions about the conflict.
Where did we get this idea that Palestinians have a right to vote in a Jewish state? That’s not a Jewish concept, and its not a realist concept.
Um, I believe we got it from the Israeli Declaration of Independence: “The State of Israel…will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex…”
Speaking of Jordan, a Hashemite minority rules a Palestinian majority, yet no one calls that apartheid.
The Hashemites don’t create Hashemite-only roads, Hashemite-only towns and cities, govern Hashemites under civil law and Palestinians under martial law. Whether or not the intent is racism (as in South African apartheid), the West Bank very much resembles a racially or ethnically tiered system. Just because Israel didn’t set out to be racist doens’t mean the resulting separation isn’t aptly identified as “apartheid”.
Have you even been to the West Bank? The Palestinians in “refugee camps” are living better than half the Israelis I know!
Unfortunately, I haven’t been in Israel for about a year–although I lived there for a long time. Maybe the situation for the Palestinians in the West Bank has changed since then. In any case, just like most people living in 2009, I’ve been influenced by liberal Western ideas, and I understand Torah to be a living guide to our lives. Hence, I refuse to accept the situation where the state of Israel holds millions of other people under a military rule, depriving them of voting rights, detaining them without cause, setting up checkpoints so that they can’t travel freely, etc….maybe all of that is justified for security reasons…but then, in the middle of such a situation, we’ve placed hundreds of thousands of Jews, in Jewish-only communities, driving around on Jewish-only roads. Maybe you and I just understand the Torah’s application differently…but to me, that’s just not Torah.
Where did we get this idea that Palestinians have a right to vote in a Jewish state?
I don’t want them to have a right to vote in a Jewish state. Of course not! That’s why we have to partition the Land. As Rav Lichtenstein said before the Disengagement, sometimes you need to amputate a limb in order to try to say the rest of the body. Maybe our generation simply doesn’t merit the Moshiach…maybe it’s just not our time to be in Judea and Samaria.
Speaking of Palestinians voting in Israel, have you looked at the Bureau of Statistics numbers lately? The state of Israel was 13.5% Arab in 1967…it’s 20% today–at that’s with the immigration from the FSU! How do you think that happened? We annexed the Arab areas of Jerusalem, we opened the Green Line, so that the Palestinian community re-united to some extent. We invited the right of return. Also, we replaced the idea of Jewish people doing physical labor, in the Jewish state, with Palestinian labor–but my consternation with this is liberalism affecting me, too.
Speaking of Jordan, a Hashemite minority rules a Palestinian majority, yet no one calls that apartheid. Interesting how the “A” word is throw around for maximum propaganda value in support of Jewish retreat and perpetual war, and you and Justin propose nothing less
Jordan is not an apartheid state, it is a repressive dictatorship. What’s your point, though? Would you like to see Israel become a repressive dictatorship?
Btw, if we believe the Israeli press (Ehud Yaari,) the Palestinians feared Sharon more than any other Israeli leader since Ben-Gurion.
Why do you think that was, because Sharon talked tough and used force sometimes? Plenty of PM’s have done so….Could it be because Sharon was setting Israel on a course to end the settlement enterprise in the territories?
PM, if you’re living in the West Bank, especially in its heart, then you’re Hamas’s and the PLO’s dream come true.
moderator, can you fix my italics please––is that not correct?
<i>This is correct.</i> (The slash is key.)
Purpleman writes, “Have you even been to the West Bank? The Palestinians in “refugee camps” are living better than half the Israelis I know! ”
I have – have you? Palestinians in the West Bank live in pretty awful conditions – if half the Israelis you know are living worse than them, I want to congratulate you for spending so much time amongst the homeless. That is true Jewish values. I hope that what you’re doing with them is helping them get better places to live.
Not to completely undermine the discussion…but I have to wonder if Bibi’s been dipping into Sharon’s snack cabinet….he looks like he’s packed on a few in that clip from Channel 2
“Half the Israelis you know”?! Do you only know haredim or something? Most of Israel is pretty well-off.
Palestinians in the West Bank live in pretty awful conditions
What the FRUIT are you talking about? Where have you been in the West Bank?! I can tell you for a fact that Palestinians living in Ramallah and its suburbs live like kings, complete with multi-story villas. They go outside and have access to a dozen fresh fruits and vegetables ready for the picking. They pay little to no taxes to the PA, the best medical care at Hadassah, free education in Birzeit… the biggest worry of Palestinians my age, at least in the villages, is where to score quality hashish.
For those of you who are so wedded to “Palestinian poverty” without ever stepping foot in a Palestinian village, at least look at some pictures!
Arabba (near Jenin)
Jiljilyya (near Ramallah)
Balata and Jenin might have looked like warzones five years ago, but they are definitely NOT today! Coffee shops, internet cafes, BMW and Mercedes dealerships. Those of you who have never been… ask a Palestinian friend (you might actually have to TOUCH an Arab… I know that’s a big step for some of you liberals) and GO!
It’s ridiculous even drawing a comparison between their lives and those of people in Bnei Brak or Jerusalem’s poorer neighborhoods, sleeping on cold concrete floor, burning cardboard in the winter and wrapping their kids up like mummies in old blankets, scompletely reliant on soup kitchens for survival. Those of you in Israel making these outlandish, uneducated remarks, you should really get out of Tel Aviv and Haifa’s snobby upper crust more often.
Palestinians are not the desperate victims many of you wish they were. A super majority of them live quite comfortably, considering half the villages weren’t connected to electricity until 20 years ago, and they’re happy with their conditions. I’ve never seen depressing urban-style poverty in the West Bank, which is common in many Israeli cities.
I could keep venting, but what’s the point. Just go and see it for yourself.
This kind of absurd coverage is harmful to people with uncritical minds. At 2:09 the voice over says ” It appears there are enough apartments…” it pans over a shot of the existing Tel Tzion (not kochav yaakov) apartments which are not new and are filled, there is nothing in the landscape to indicate that there are enough apartments, they have reached this conclusion for you. Leave you mind at the door, some pseudo-journalist found an empty house, he probably “found” it by asking to see a apartment for sale or rent, and recorded the showing, than reported it as “they don’t need to build new buildings, we found an empty one a few blocks away.” A house is allowed to be empty. These are individual families we are talking about not a single entity. Somebody owns a home in a settlement and for whatever reason it is not occupied for the moment, I cannot just seize it for myself, an example of why it may be unoccupied may be they moved somewhere else and their children are moving in, or a sibling or they are between renters, or they relocated and are in middle of reselling it, the list goes on and on. People have a right to build, people have a right to move into neighborhoods, settlements are the most humane and peaceful way of occupying land. The other choices left to the Israelis if they want to maintain control of the area is to wipe out the arab population, deport the population or enforce a harsh military rule over the population. Israeli settlers have chosen the most peaceful way – by moving settlers into the land they can eventually displace the population and control the area without excess bloodshed. Israel is well within its legal rights as a nation to maintain control of the area, if they choose to. If you don’t think so, its because you have no idea about what a nation is, what legality is, what warfare is. Just read up on it a little, you don’t need to be an expert. Wether you are on the left or the right it doesn’t matter. These are terms you should be familiar with, your opinion is not worthwhile on a subject if you are running on vague feelings which you have reached by watching Youtube videos. I understand people may say that even though Israel may be within its legal rights to maintain the area, they have promised things in peace talks, but the fact is neither side of these peace talks have kept their side of the bargain, and they are both free to act as they wish, there has never been any final agreement. And I believe both side’s actions have shown they don’t really want peace. I have been to Eli, Kochav Yaakov, Shilo and Arab settlements mentioned in the video as well, they all live in what the USA would consider poverty within its own borders. But thats not all that bad as long as you can enjoy life, both the Jew and the Arab have as good a chance at happiness as the American. I feel really horrible about the political situation though. I am not a settler but I wish we american Jews had a better Idea of who the are, some of the people in the settlements irresponsible hot-heads but others are the most peaceful, loving, sincere, and hard working people I have ever met. They have put their lives on the line for the safety of the Israeli nation – YES – maintaining the settled areas is in the Israel’s safety interest. It will not win political allies among the Arabs but it is in the best interest of Israel to maintain a broader border.
Lastly, Kung Fu, have a heart, in the settlements I have personally met african, asian, middle-eastern, and caucasian settlers. I have met religious and atheist jews. I actually did meet a non-jewish, non-convert, israeli citizen who was the wife of a Jewish by birth settler – but obviously thats an exception, most people who are not jewish by faith or by birth will not be found there, and why should they be? If you visited those areas and didn’t see those individuals than you only saw what you wanted to. You cannot demand that they open their roads to hostile non-citizens. The line drawn in the sand is more a question of wether you are part of the state or not. Not a racist or religious apartheid. If you want a racist and religious apartheid in the settled areas than keeping pushing for Israel to give it to Arabs, and that’s what you will get.
PurpleMan writes: “It’s ridiculous even drawing a comparison between their lives and those of people in Bnei Brak or Jerusalem’s poorer neighborhoods, sleeping on cold concrete floor, burning cardboard in the winter and wrapping their kids up like mummies in old blankets, completely reliant on soup kitchens for survival.
He is right. It is ridiculous when rather than suffer this way they men could go out and work (if they were not limited by the low level of non-Torah education they receive). They could stop depending on the government (as 60% of Haredi men do) for welfare handouts and for child allowances (as over 90% do).These are the government numbers from the Bureau of Statistics.
And even the poorest in Israel have access to quality hospitals and medical care. Those in the West Bank are often severely limited.
Are some Palestinians well off? Yes. And the better the economy the better it is for all, including Israel.
Are there nice homes? Yes. But PurpleMan’s assertion was “The Palestinians in “refugee camps” are living better than half the Israelis I know!”
He can twist the facts any way he wishes. This is just false (unless he feels GNP and personal income date supplied by the Israeli government is false).But I guess maybe Purpleman is correct? The camps are teeming with wealthy people who choose to hide under the cover of poverty. With an average income of 7,200nis/month most Israelis are much worse off?
PurpuleMan-hold to your views if you wish. But do not back them up with silly distortions.
ME said exactly what I was about to. You can find these immense villas PM speaks of, I’ve seen them myself. I don’t know where PM lives in the world, but I do know that Israelis are not allowed to enter most Palestinian areas and therefore are painfully unaware, in my experience, of the true nature of Palestinian poverty. That being said, most American Jews don’t go to the areas of Israel that house extremely poor Israelis and don’t see the reality that a too large percentage of Israeli children go hungry each day.
It’s pretty silly, like ME said, to paint the whole of Palestine as a nation “living as kings.” Kings without proper water and medicine maybe. And the fact that there are car dealerships prove nothing. Just go to the mobile home parks around Miami. You’ll find people living in destitute poverty driving Camaros and Acuras.
People who think Palestinians are all poor are as wrong as those who think Americans are all rich, but to deny that there is abject poverty in Palestine is simply ignorance. To presume that the whole people have concocted a media farce to present themselves as insanely poor when, in fact, they are insanely rich, is equitable to certain people who say certain things about certain events that took place (or not, in their opinion) during ww2.
Justin and PurpleMan, your ignorance and escapism is ASTOUNDING. I think I’ve got to make a whole post underscoring the economic gaps between Israel and Palestine.
KFJ
I take offense to that, brother. All I said was that not every single Palestinian is poor, it’s a fact. all you have to do is look at some of the villages. I would never claim that poverty is abundant in Palestine and this is because of a systematic military occupation, but that does not mean that every single last Palestinian is dirt poor. There are many that do quite well (and live in Dearborne and Los Angeles and other places in the US for half the year to make most of their money) trust me, they’re there.
It’s pretty silly, like ME said, to paint the whole of Palestine as a nation “living as kings.”
I apologize if that’s how my writing came off, but when you compare many of these villages with urban poverty in Israel, there’s just no comparison. The poorest Palestinian village has access to what can be considered a luxury in some parts of Jerusalem – fresh fruits and vegetables, meat, clean water. No matter how poor the village, there is not a single person going hungry in the West Bank, and certainly not tens of thousands like in Israel. Go to Gagon in Tel Aviv or the Lasova food kitchen and you’ll see true poverty that would be unimaginable in the West Bank.
Part of this is the strong family, tribal and patronage structures in the Palestinian culture, and UNRWA more that covers the rest, but the bottom line to me is undeniable. Palestinians, in general, have a high quality of life. Putting this situation into the context of Palestinian history as a tribal, agrarian people who didn’t get centralized plumbing or paved roads until the 70s and 80s and launched two wars since then… things are quite good and as long as peace lasts, they will improve.
KFJ and others are referring to economic indicators, and they’re right. A Palestinian living in Attara does not have the kind of financial base and economic impact that a Jew does in Tiberas, but to compare these two merely on the basis of economic statistics is misleading. The costs of living in Israel are vastly higher, and most Palestinians are tied to the land, giving them better access to quality agricultural produce. Cold, sterile economic statistics simply don’t tell the story, because those statistics don’t take into account quality of life.
Go to the villages and see for yourself. Or go to Ramallah and see a thriving, vibrant city, high rise condos going up everywhere. You’ll think you’re in a suburb of Jerusalem.
ok, now you’re talking crazy talk again. I’ve been to Palestinian villages, I’ve seen hungry people. I’ve seen the lack of clean water. What’s more, villages and refugee camps are different things. There are LOTS of people in the WB going hungry, LOTS of them. out of curiosity, when were you last in the WB?
Right now, today, I know mothers who are worried if they will have food for Shabbos. It’s not all cake for the Palestinians, and if I seemed to crassly dismiss their problems earlier while bringing attention to Jewish poverty, it was an overreaction on my part to push back against the bobbleheads. Portrayals of Palestinians as a destitute people are greatly exaggerated, and they have the world throwing money at them. Meanwhile, we Jews have each other and $2 Billion a year from the US that goes back to American companies. In this equation, I know where MY attention is going to be focused.
KFJ, I would urge you and the other JS’ers to devote some articles to the problems of poverty in Israel? Maybe old Jewish women from Kiev, tied to their couch because of swollen legs, unable to cook for themselves and no one to provide for them, living in Tel Aviv apartments that reek of urine are not as sensational and provocative as talking about Israeli injustices against the Palestinians, but let me tell you, their tears and pain are no less heartbreaking, here in our Jewish State.
Go to Gagon in Tel Aviv or the Lasova food kitchen and you’ll see true poverty that would be unimaginable in the West Bank.
Right now, today, I know mothers who are worried if they will have food for Shabbos.
What a shanda this is….but PM, if you live in Israel, I’m sure you’re aware that National-Religious leadership doesn’t address these problems. Of course, they’ll pay lip-service, and surely don’t want to see such poverty.
But, when push comes to shove, they’d never leave a government coalition over poverty or the problems in the education system. Other than Meimad, the National-Religious leadership will compromise on all but one issue: if the government tries to evacuate a single family from a hilltop in Yosh, the National-Religious leadership will throw a fit and even bring down a government [see Wye Accords.]
they’d never leave a government coalition over poverty or the problems in the education system
And your point is… what, exactly? Juxtaposing Israeli poverty (which is a problem not just in haredi, but also Russian, Sephardic and other communities) and the twisted political maneuverings of Israel’s National Religious parties would seem to indicate that these issues are directly connected. They’re not.
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make.
PurpleMan, some numbers from the CIA World Factbook:
Unemployment
Israel: 6.1%
Territories: 41% in Gaza, 16% in West Bank; 26% total
America: 9.5%, just for comparison
Population Below the Poverty Line
Israel: 21.6%, 1.56 million people
Territories: 80% of Gaza (1.2 million people), 46% of West Bank (1.1 million people); 59% total (2.37 million people)
Average GDP per Person
Israel: $27,745 per person
Territories: $2,977 per person
Poverty in the territories affects twice as many people, nearly 3 times as large a percentage of society, in a society earning 1/10th the income of Israel. There’s just no comparing, PurpleMan.
That said, yes, we should run some articles about Israeli poverty and it’s deepening state after the previous Netanyahu government’s dismantling of the social welfare system. Yes, I think that’s also an important issue to present.
The point is: we all need to prioritize. Why isn’t poverty in Israel (including the Mizrachi and Russian communities) a greater priority in the Dati-Leumi world? What about the educational problems? The growing gap between rich and poor? Pollution? Increased materialism and egoism? “Religious” and “Secular tensions? Personally, I think these are huge issues…that the Dati-Leumi community could be at the forefront of solving.
But, they’re all way down the totem pole in comparison to Eretz Yisrael. (ok, education is important, too, in terms of trying to educate more Israelis about the necessity of not ceding parts of the Land.) Eretz Yisrael is all that really matters ultimately.
Actually, on this matter I really agree with Jonathan. There’s a small movement called the Realistic Religious Zionists, one the leaders of whom I got to meet a couple years ago. Check them out:
Today, in its present state, the religious Zionist camp lacks vision. All its religious thought and most of its agenda revolves around a single axis – the struggle for the territories of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. It is on the altar of this struggle that the religious Zionist camp has been neglecting urgent, internal problems facing this public and overlooking difficult moral issues affecting the religious-Zionist individual today. All these should be a main concern of this public, whose main goal should be the concerted effort to live a life of Torah in the current reality of the Jewish state.
There’s more on their Hebrew site than their English site: http://www.tzionut.org/en/
The movement used to be called the Mafdal.
Today, at least there’s still Green-Meimad, which b’h will make it into the Kinesset next time (had they not lost Ami Ayalon, they probably would have this time, IMHO.)
http://hayeruka-meimad.org.il/english
Michael Totten in Commentary yesterday. Slowly, but surely, the truth of Israel’s “brutal” occupation is coming out. Palestinians, by and large, live quite comfortably. Living conditions or Israel’s occupation were never at the heart of this conflict and they never will be. Radical Palestinian polity, which predates Palestinian nationalism itself, is the problem; one that 20 years of peace talks have not diluted.
PurpleMan, give it a rest. They must live quite comfortably — dirt poor, unable to leave their town, and all the satellite Arabic TV you could want. What more could they possibly want? They wouldn’t get upset about lacking NATIONAL RIGHTS would they? Surely not, no! After all, self-determination is a wash. The Jews did so well without it for two thousand years, surely the Palestinians can wait as long.
It must be awesome to be a Palestinian, mm hm.
That said, I know a couple refugee camps in Ramallah he should visit.
That said, I know a couple refugee camps in Ramallah he should visit.
Refugee camps in the richest city in the West Bank? Perhaps you mean the district of Ramallah, not the city. Regardless, what are their names?
They wouldn’t get upset about lacking NATIONAL RIGHTS would they?
Do Palestinians in Jordan get upset about lacking “NATIONAL RIGHTS”? You’ve been sipping too many lattes with Ramallah Arabs. Get out in the villages a little. Talk to Palestinians who don’t trace their ancestry to Mohammed and dine on caviar in their Cairo condos. The Palestinian national movement has been hijacked by the PLO since Oslo. Maybe someone can take you to the unmarked graves filled by Arafat’s thugs. They are raped by Israel or raped by the PA. You’re so out of touch, it’s troubling.
Do Palestinians in Jordan get upset about lacking “NATIONAL RIGHTS”?
But, PM, Jordan is a repressive dictatorship, is that what you want for Israel?
The Palestinian national movement has been hijacked by the PLO since Oslo.
The PLO has been a disaster in many senses but, hand on your heart, even if the Palestinians were to build a Jeffersonian democracy, you’d never agree to let a state west of the Jordan. (You meaning the entire settlement world.) Where is Kahane, who at least was an honest right-winger?
you’d never agree to let a state west of the Jordan
Who are you talking to? Either you’re putting words in my mouth, or you started a conversation all by yourself with yourself.
Ok, counselor, let me ask you this way:
If a Palestinian leadership emerged that was undeniably clean, transparant, and commited to an end-of-conflict agreement with Israel (based upon the usual formulas: Camp David; the Clinton Ideas; etc.) and every Jew in the West Bank could live in Palestine, as a regular citizen. . . would you support such an agreement?
PurpleMan, I just have to ask this question to reinforce my credibility and expose your lack of it: I was volunteering in the West Bank in late 2004, living in East Jerusalem and Bethlehem…and you? How long did you life with Palestinians in the territories?
I believe Am’ari was the name of the refugee camp, on the edges of the Ramallah sprawl. It looked like the pictures of slums in India. Humans deserve better.
I don’t know why I spend the time to prove you wrong, PurpleMan, except it’s so easy.