A reminder: these people trying to stop Health Care reform are not our friends.
Not that I ever thought they were, mind you. But did you hear the one about the woman, in what looks like an IDF tee shirt, who yelled “Heil Hitler!” at the Israeli who was speaking proudly about the health care system and the way the Israeli gov’t treats its soldiers? HILARIOUS!
Almost as funny is her reaction to be calling out and caught on camera, and her reaction to an uninsured person’s massive hospital bills. When someone points out something good about an alternative to our system, she says the most hateful thing she can. And when someone points out a massive flaw in our system and their own rough situation, she mocks him, with the protection of two large men.
It’s all you need to know about many of the people trying to stop health care reform.
ht: Think Progress
maybe the pharma shill speaking for birthright can talk to people about this?
It’s all you need to know about many of the people trying to stop health care reform.
Just checking here, but which “health care reform” are you for, exactly? You didn’t make that clear in your article. Are you for universal coverage? Are you for the House bill? How much of the House bill have you read? Are you for the co-ops championed by Obama?
Do you favor cutting Medicare to pay for whatever it is you support? Do you favor raising taxes on the middle class? Do you favor more borrowing?
Thanks for your contribution to the discussion over health care reform, RubyK! Glad to know you’re not EXACTLY like that woman.
Hi Anonymouse,
I’m for a strong public option as part of a comprehensive health care package, and raising taxes a few points on the ultra rich to help get the startup rolling.
Thanks for asking. Where are you on the scenerio, Anonymouse? How should we help the near 50 million fellow citizens who have no coverage, can’t take care of themselves in a preventative way, are driving up costs for everyone else b/c they are forced to go to emergency rooms, and are often financially ruined b/c of one injury without health care. And, no, thank you for contributing to the debate.
Hi Ruby,
I believe in universal health coverage, but Anonymouse is right – your post is just an ad hominem attack.
I favor expanding Medicare to whoever wants it, improving the quality and range of service it provides, and funding that with cuts to arms spending and military adventurism.
As for the current proposals going though our government, I don’t know enough about them to make a proper assessment, but have yet to see anything to justify the Nazi comparisons.
Frankly, I don’t know where these super rich are anymore. The upper middle class and up got hammered by the stock market and recession, as evidenced by the plunge in charitable giving. I think if Obama could pay for universal coverage with another 5% tax hike on the super rich, which apparently means $250k+, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, they would just do it.
I think it is inherently unfair when more than half of Americans already don’t pay income taxes in real terms. I don’t favor new taxes, but if they are enacted, we should all share the burden, proportional to our income.
There are health cost problems in our country, and they need to be addressed, but not with a radical remake of the entire system. From my perspective, there are only three groups I would be in favor of providing government health coverage for – children, the old/indigent/disabled and those encountering catastrophic costs (perhaps more than 50% of real income, or a similar formula). The old/indigent/disabled are already covered under Medicare/Medicaid. Children may be covered under CHIPS, and most states already have some sort of basic health insurance for children.
That leaves us with those who experience catastrophic medical bills as a result of sudden injury or illness, or who are denied private coverage based on pre-existing conditions. I don’t know if anyone’s bothered to find out the cost of insuring just these people, but if the government is going to get involved anywhere, that is where I think we should start. Perhaps there should be a pool for catastrophic coverage that everyone in the country must contribute to, and be covered by, but which will only be applied in case medical expenses exceed 50% of income. This could supplement private insurance and remove catastrophic care from the private insurance market. It is generally agreed that removing catastrophic care from private coverage will lead to significant reductions in premiums.
Something along these lines I would be in favor of. I don’t know of any specific proposal which addresses them in particular.
I think if Obama could pay for universal coverage with another 5% tax hike on the super rich, which apparently means $250k+, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, they would just do it.
I would love to live in that world.
I think it is inherently unfair when more than half of Americans already don’t pay income taxes in real terms.
What does that mean?
Sorry Rachel, but I believe you are using the phrase ad hominem incorrectly. As you probably know already, this phrase means “to the man” and refers to the logical fallacy that an argument is wrong because the person making the argument has some flaw unrelated to the argument itself.
However, RubyK’s post is not about health care, but rather about an example of hate speech (“Heil Hitler in the context of shouting down an Israeli) as well as dismissive and irrational retorts (“Oh Boo Hoo Hoo” in response to the man’s personal example of emergency service costs). The example is applicable to the point of RubyK’s post.
However, RubyK’s conclusion that this is all there is to many people opposed to health care reform can be considered a hasty generalization (also a logical fallacy).
Anonymous’ post questioning RubyK’s positions on health care (again, not to the topic of Rubk’s original post) implies that there is some similarity between RubyK and the woman screaming “Heil Hitler”. This implication can be rightfully categorized as an ad hominem argument.
So if your point that there is a logical fallacy in RubyK’s conclusion, I would agree with you – just not on the particulars of type.
Best regards.
From my perspective, there are only three groups I would be in favor of providing government health coverage for – children, the old/indigent/disabled and those encountering catastrophic costs (perhaps more than 50% of real income, or a similar formula).
Anonymouse, do you consider health a right?
It’s all you need to know about many of the people trying to stop health care reform.
Actually, I think that seeing something like this would make us think that there was much, much more we needed to know about “many of the people” who oppose some of the current health care reforms on the proverbial table.
In general, everything in me rebels against statements like this. Not that I don’t have thoughts like that all the time, because I do. But I hope I would try to see past them and think a little more clearly.
WIDTAP,
When RubyK says that this is all we need to know about “about many of the people trying to stop health care reform,” I can only presume that she also thinks that this is all we need to know about the arguments for stopping health care reform. Hence calling it an ad hominem attack.
As I suggested in my earlier comment, I do not oppose the health care reforms so presumably this means that I can still be Ruby’s friend…
wow, lot of big words and “deep thoughts in an unnecessary attempt to include the nutter butters in the big people conversations! what does a person have to do to show you that they are incapable of civil public discourse. People are proudly wearing weapons at Obama’s events, Shouting heil Hitler, interrupting town hall meetings with hysteria, mob mentality.. It’s hard to deal with just how unhinged certain elements of society are getting but what good does denial do?
Take a look at this, if you haven’t already or if you have.. Let Barney Frank explain it all for you…
http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/08/video-barney-frank-smacks-down-woman-at.html
These people have as much to offer to the health care debate as Abortion Doctor killers have to offer the reproductive health debate.
See Godwin’s law for more on this.
Nationalism + Socialism = NAZI
The woman in the “IDF” T-shirt is clearly not shouting her support for Hitler. She views Obama as a charismatic leader, who is adding socialism to an already nationalist state. She sees him increasing government’s control in peoples lives, and who’s policies will lead to the death of Jews as an indication of his hatred of Israel. She wants government to stay out of peoples lives because she doesn’t trust the government, she doesn’t want the government to have the power which it does have, because she doesn’t want a Hitler. She sees that the Jewish man in the black shirt, by supporting Obama, is “Heiling” Hitler. (Im not projecting, these are not my views, I simply watched the rest of the interviews, and didn’t jump to party-line conclusions) She is not alone in calling people “Hitlers” I have heard leftists in America and Israel use it on occasions when the right acts on nationalism. But to the point, she and the Ruby K in the context of this blog post are both acting as nationalists.
A little George Orwell to the rescue:
“By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests.”
I’m an original Las Vegan – born and raised. And I’m a 1/2 Jew. So, let me tell you a thing or two about Vegas. Jews, Mormons and Catholics make up the founding fathers (and mothers) of Las Vegas. The Jewish community, through charitable and service oriented organizations has sustained my city.
In the casino industry we call people like this woman – Stiffs. They’re usually very desperate people who only come to Vegas as a last resort. Kind of like a parasite. They add nothing to our community, nor do they try to integrate with our diverse culture.
Their only purpose is to suck as much energy and money as they can before they pack up and leave. They fight tooth and nail against any funding for schools, children, community or welfare.
I hate the Stiffs.
Anonymouse- the reason people incur catastrophic health care costs is because the system is designed to squeeze money out of patients. Doctors are compensated problematically. Pharmacuticals corporations are structured badly. The burden falls on people who cannot make any other choice but to accept treatment. You’re being hypocritical.
Also – a health tax, of 5% of income, wouldn’t kill anybody. Employers would be able to stop paying for the (expensive) private insurance, small businesses would be able to take healthcare off their hands, sick people wouldn’t be impoverished. Doctors would be compensated in a sane manner and hospitals would have no interest in testing people for fun. Our system works. Even the cuban system works. It is your (capitalist) system that is broken.
Hey all, thanks for all the comments. With the post,I wasn’t trying to suggest that there are no rational arguments on the other side, only that a sizable portion (maybe most isn’t fair) of what I’m seeing and hearing as “opposition” is using a whole lot of shouting, baiting, and fearmongering tactics. Rep. Barney Frank, someone I disagree with plenty, had someone ask him about supporting a Nazi policy at a town hall, and there are clearly professionally printed posters with Obama having a Hitler moustache. This, to me, is not a coincidence that it’s happening in Nevada and Massachusetts at nearly the same time.
Maybe it’s unfair for me to use the woman in the original video as an examplar of the other side of the debate. But as I watch the debate unfold, i hear that the Republicans are going to vote no on this even if they get everything they want. I hear about town halls where people show up with these signs. I hear about folks coming to (or at least near) these events with guns- anyone remember the free speech zones?
Anonymouse laid out some rational points on how to deal with the problem. This is far more useful than telling an Israeli “Heil Hitler” and maybe I’m frustrated because up to this point, I’ve had far more encounters/observations of the latter than the former and I’m deadass tired of it. Comparing figuring out how to get everyone in the country to Hitler is plain bullshis.
I think we should learn from the republicans and demonize them, instead of wasting our time on trying to convince them. When Americans will stop becoming bankrupt from having a nasty case of pneumonia, they will thank us.
Well golly, Ruby K, you’ve convinced me. If there’s a nasty woman who opposes the government taking over medicine in this country, then there’s only one logical response: the government simply must take over medicine in this country. ‘Cause we don’t like nasty women.
It’s a solid argument. No doubt about it.
Doctors are compensated problematically. Pharmacuticals corporations are structured badly. The burden falls on people who cannot make any other choice but to accept treatment.
If you are arguing for nationalization of the medical industry in America then be honest and just say so. This is not what Obama is proposing. It is not what Congressional Democrats are proposing. It is not even what the most radical “health reform” groups are proposing.
Also – a health tax, of 5% of income, wouldn’t kill anybody.
You missed the point completely. 5% tax is a drop in the bucket compared to the numbers we’re talking about. What I said is that if all it took was a 5% tax on the “super rich”, it would have been done already. The reason the House bill is dead in the water is because some Democrats still want to be elected in ’10 and ’12.
I think we should learn from the republicans and demonize them, instead of wasting our time on trying to convince them.
Which makes you different from “Heil Hitler” nutjobs how, exactly?
RubyK,
As illustrated by some of the comments above, the left has it’s own wackoes. If you need more examples, I’ll remind you of the Bush years, when “Nazi” was the kindest thing they called him. But that’s Bush, it was OK to pretend he was the devil, right? It was just fine to release movies about assassinating Bush. It was just fine to print posters of his face on the body of a monkey. Remember the 9/11 Conspiracy that Bush orchestrated 9/11? And how we went to Iraq to steal all their oil? Remember Dick Cheney, “Dark Vader” himself? There is no history of insanity on the left? All you are doing is playing into the hands of the hysterics, on both sides.
You believe in “health reform”. Great.
All we have today is a House Bill, H.R. 3200.
How many of you who support some form of “health care reform” have read this bill? Have you read even a summary? It is not a simple piece of literature, and I urge those of you who vociferously support “health reform”, without actually advocating specific policies (and “universal coverage” is a buzzline, not a policy), to read at least a few sections of this bill.
Then head over to CBO Health and help them figure out how to pay for this multi-trillion expansion of the federal government, at a time of massive deficits, shrinking tax collection, and existing exploding obligations under social security, medicare and medicaid.
Until you’ve educated yourself on the specifics, on what is actually on the table and how to pragmatically pay for it, you should realize that you’re just a “useful idiot“, for one side or another.
So for all the people who are big supporters of medical “reform”…. have you actually read the text of the bill yet? Fortunately, it’s very accessible.
So do read through and report back to us on your findings. I’m an especially big fan of Sections 1102 through 1743. But Sections 1905, 399Z-1 and 3161 subsection D are pretty hot too.
Hi Eric,
I guess you missed the three paragraph note above your last comment. Your comment’s a bit disingenous. That’s not my argument. My argument is there should be a strong public option as one part of a plan to get everyone in the country health insurance. I believed that before that abrasive (at best) racist (at worst) woman yelled heil hitler at an Israeli, and believe it now. And again, feel free to provide some of your own views on how we should solve the problem. thanks!
How about implementing income tax for clergy as well as property tax for religious institutions? That outta take care of it.
Clergy pay income tax in every state and federally. I don’t know anything about property tax.
I think we should learn from the republicans and demonize them
Only the Republicans do that? That’s funny.
Josh- There is no income tax in several states, so no, they don’t. It’s my understanding that they do not pay income tax federally or even in states with income tax.
Currently, Churches, Synagogues, etc… do not pay property tax. The Catholic Church, for example, owns a lot of land and pays no tax on it.
Ok, I asked a Rabbi friend and he does pay income tax, but gets several tax benefits including a housing allowance. You can read a little about it here: http://www.uscj.org/Tax_Reporting_for_Cl5663.html
Ruby K writes:
“Rep. Barney Frank, someone I disagree with plenty, had someone ask him about supporting a Nazi policy at a town hall, and there are clearly professionally printed posters with Obama having a Hitler moustache. ”
That women and the people waving the Obama/hitler posters are extreme leftists, NOT a republicans. She is part of the LaRouche’s democrats. Lyndons LaRouche’s comparisons of Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler are based on his support of health insurance reforms which will result in the government making medical decisions on who will live and who will die. LaRouche says this is comparable to Hitler’s Action T4 euthanasia program.
Ruby K:
“Maybe it’s unfair for me to use the woman in the original video as an examplar of the other side of the debate.”
It sure is, and as much as I love Jewschool, when it comes to controversial politics this kind of thing happens a lot. Whether in the Holyland (Israel) or the land of the covenant (US), its almost assured that the posts will identify with the leftist agenda, “placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests.” This type of Nationalism is counterproductive, and worse. I think its time for some patriotism, as George Orwell wrote “Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.”
>>Your comment’s a bit disingenous. That’s not my argument. My argument is there should be a strong public option as one part of a plan to get everyone in the country health insurance. I believed that before that abrasive (at best) racist (at worst) woman yelled heil hitler at an Israeli, and believe it now.
Hmmmmm, RubyK. To quote you: “It’s all you need to know about many of the people trying to stop health care reform.” It’s your announcement; own it.
It’s funny that you denounce “a whole lot of shouting, baiting, and fearmongering tactics.” Right now the Obama administration is attempting to whip the public into a frenzy that medical “reform” has to be done now — right NOW! — or millions and millions of people will….. hmmmmmm…. get sick? Get psoriasis? Die? That part’s never made clear. I wonder why…
It’s to the credit of the American electorate that a majority of people are now rejecting those kinds of high pressure sales tactics and are instead demanding to first see and study the results of other countries’ government-controlled medical systems like the UK and Canada.
You mused that “Maybe it’s unfair for me to use the woman in the original video as an examplar of the other side of the debate.” Well yes, it is unfair. It’s also an attempt to divert the discussion away from the reality of government controlled medicine and into bright, flashy nutter territory. One might even call it “fearmongering”.
>>And again, feel free to provide some of your own views on how we should solve the problem. thanks!
Happy to! Here are just a few brief ones.
1: end the byzantine and discriminatory laws that prevent citizens from purchasing insurance policies from companies based in different states. Instead open up the health insurance sector to free and open competition — more like life insurance: where rates have been declining for almost a decade now.
2: drop the assumption that health “insurance” companies should pay for routine procedures. Notice how Lasik providers advertise and compete on price? Notice how the price of Lasik never goes up? Same with plastic surgery. There’s a reason: insurance policies don’t cover those things.
You don’t use your auto insurance to cover oil changes and new tires. Health insurance shouldn’t be expected to pay most of the fees for normal checkups and vaccines. “Insurance” is about managing contingencies and risk. Your yearly physical doesn’t quite count.
3: Drop the silliness of “employer provided” health care. Does your employer “provide” your car insurance? Life insurance? Home insurance? Clothing? Water? What nonsense! Yet when it comes to health insurance people are expected to become herded sheep.
The notion that employers “provide” health insurance is a relic of the conditions caused by laws set in place by FDR because of WW2. The war ended seven decades ago but we’re stuck with this comical antique that some people actually believe is normal. It’s time for a little progress folks.
And here are two suggestions for everyone:
1. Messianic solutions are for children. Stop believing in them and stop pursuing them. They’re sexy, immature and highly destructive.
2. Before announcing you’re for “reform” try reading the bill.
This only goes to show you that Single Payer really is the only solution. The stuff being paraded by the Dems is not even remotely effective. Perhaps, just as the righties screech, it will be a trojan horse for single payer. God willing.
Are any of you people actually resident citizens of countries other than the USA? I mean, how many of you have actually experienced both being uninsured in the USA and universal health care elsewhere?
>>I mean, how many of you have actually experienced both being uninsured in the USA and universal health care elsewhere?
I have. There’s no question that the level of medical care in the US is superior. There’s also no question that the idyllic notions being bandied about of “free” “universal” insurance coverage for “everybody” in America are so much messianic nonsense. And therefore very dangerous. (BTW folks if you’re for “reform” have you bothered to read the bill yet?)
For today’s daily installment on the brilliant success of government-controlled medicine just talk to pregnant British women.
I have never been uninsured, but never insured in the US. And I love our Israeli system. I have been to many doctors, and spent days in hospitals, and the sum of my medical bills (not dental, tho) is less than $2000. For 27 years.
There’s no question that the level of medical care in the US is superior.
Not if you’re UNINSURED, which is what I was talking about. Sure if you have enough money, you can buy superior treatment, duh.
I’ve been uninsured in the US and I’m also a British citizen. Health-wise, the US is a much much nastier place to live, in comparison.
Also the Daily Mail is a sensationalist rag, but leaving that aside, pregnant British women in fact have a better chance of giving birth and surviving than do pregnant American women. So I wouldn’t use that as a point of comparison if I were you.