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An Israeli Pogrom

If you saw a scene like this transpire anywhere else in the world, your blood would curdle and every alarm in your brain would fire off. So what about when it happens in Israel to the “politically undesireable?”
Frankly, I don’t give two flying figs what these people believe. Stormtroopers in the synagogue on Pesach? Not okay.

60 thoughts on “An Israeli Pogrom

  1. Mobius,
    Before I rip into your thread, perhaps you can share some info of WHY the “stormtroopers” entered the shul. If you don’t have any additional info about this event, and are merely basing your remarks on the video, then a spanking is in order.

  2. BTW…according to Wikipedia, a pogrom (the name you chose to title this post) is:
    “…is a massive violent attack on a particular group; ethnic, religious or other, with simultaneous destruction of their environment (homes, businesses, religious centers).”
    Is that what you’re viewing in this video? I’m not. I can’t tell in the video what happened before the police entered the shul, who they’re after and/or why? Was their a weapon involved…a threat…a dangerous offender? What?
    What’s up with the holocaust-ish terminology to demonize anyone you don’t agree with? Havent’ you banned readers for doing similar things?

  3. Wow Brown, I guess you were there. Please share with us why/how this occured and how it feels to be:
    a) a Satmar chassid
    or
    b) an Israeli police officer
    Or perhaps you have a conspiracy theory you’d like to share. Let me guess…it’s the Jews fault. And in this case, you’d be right.

  4. Maybe this has something to do with the Satmar leadership schism that led to brawls inside a NYC shul last month:

    http://www.totallyjewish.com/n
    Maybe, as in NY, the police merely came into break up a brawl.
    P.S. “Community” is the spamblock word. Very apt.

  5. According to Neutrei Karta’s site (a source that has anything but “objective” motives) claims:
    On April 26, 2005, thousands of Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem gathered to protest the despicable events which occurred during a protest at Highway 6 near Kibbutz Regavin when demonstrators against the Highway expansion which was destroying ancient Jewish graves were viciously attacked by Security Guards.
    In retaliation for the mass protest, Israeli police entered an Orthodox Jewish Synagogue in Jerusalem and attacked devout Jews who were in the shul to pray during the Passover Holiday.

  6. Joey,
    Dan’s done this time, and time, and time again. In two weeks or so, when someone uses the word “pogrom” in a situation that insults one of the groups/organizations he supports, that poster may be banned from Jewschool. You heard it here first.

  7. shtriemel – I take it you are neither a Satmar nor an Israeli policeman either, so what are you going on about then ?
    You are the one floating conspiracy theories about weapons, unseen threats, or “dangerous” Satmars – not me. What’s your theory – that a Hassid might have been strapped with a bomb belt, so they had to beat the shit out of them with nightsticks to disarm it?

  8. Oh give it a rest Brown. You see the whole world as one big Police State. Still…please explain how you’d justify:
    a) Using the word “pogrom” to justify what you saw in the video
    b) Using the German influenced stormtrooper to describe Israeli police/army (actually, I’m sure you don’t have problem with this at all)

  9. seriously… if there was someone there who broke the law, you send in one uniformed officer to politely request the gentlemen step outside so that he could be taken into custody without publicly embarassing him in accordance with halakha — particularly when it’s a packed synagogue on pesach. this was intended to send a very harsh, cruel message to the satmar. it is dehumanizing and cruel to say the very least.
    further, i can see no problem whatsoever with protesting against the exhuming of graves for the building of a highway. acts of civil disobedience, which include attempting to physically prevent such grave desecration, are no reason for riot cops to bum rush your synagogue hours later and beat you senseless.
    when the cop, for example, threw the streimel at the guy’s head — how was that helping?
    why are you excusing abhorrent police corruption?
    also, if a pogrom is destroying their environment, i think the cops did a pretty good job of trashing that shul.

  10. Dan…you’re a webdesigner-not a cop. Besides using pogrom and stormtrooper when speaking about-Jews is obscene.
    Again, besides-this-video…do u have any other info from sources other-than anti-Zionist Jews?

  11. um, as a person who has many times in his life been on the other end of the billy club, i think i have PLENTY of experience from which to speak on this subject.
    the video speaks for itself. a dozen cops rush into a shul with billy clubs and start cracking bearded face all over the pavement. i could care less about “context.” it is never acceptable. riot cops don’t belong in shul, and civil disobedience is not grounds for the police knocking over tables and dragging you by the payes out of synagogues. i don’t care if you hit a cop. it’s still no excuse.

  12. oh, and btw, those motherfuckers are stormtroopers. you should see ’em as they ride their ninjas up the midrachov giving people the stare down. they stop and search but moreso verbally and physically abuse every single arab they come across. when i see them i throw the “sieg heil.” so do many other folks.

  13. sorry, I have to ask: besides the guys behind the counter at “The Buzz”, what satmar has a video camera handy at a pesach seder? And why for only 43 seconds?

  14. Absent some sort of context, the video is useless. Perhaps some of the Satmars were throwing rocks at the police and then retreated into the shul?
    Somehow I can’t bring myself to believe anything that comes from Nuterie Karta, yemach shemo vezichro.

  15. ” don’t care if you hit a cop. it’s still no excuse.”
    If you hit a cop, you should get your face fucked up. And I ain’t a cop, just someone who respects ’em.
    Now as somone who worked with undercover police officers in Vancouver – did a stint as a Child Protection Investigator – I can tell you that we approached the homes of violent offenders differently i.e. much more aggressively, than we did a home where there wasn’t a violent offender. And if you didn’t know the context of the situation, you’d say we were aggressive, mean, nasty and plain ol’ bad guys.
    Since Dan has no other information besides this video, it’s clear his use of “pogrom” and “stormtrooper” are inflammatory and obscene. How one Jew can accuse the Israeli police of inciting a pogrom, especially given the source of the video and the ambiguous nature of the incident, is beyond the pale. And I feel confident in saying that it’s something I expect from Stormfront, not Jewschool.

  16. “oh, and btw, those motherfuckers are stormtroopers. you should see ’em as they ride their ninjas up the midrachov giving people the stare down. they stop and search but moreso verbally and physically abuse every single arab they come across. when i see them i throw the “sieg heil.” so do many other folks.”
    Ah, I see. So you’re use of “stormtrooper” and “pogrom” for this specific event wasn’t biased in anyway. Super duper Dan. I’m sure David Irving would agree with you.

  17. ok, now i’m a holocaust revisionist and a nazi because i refuse to believe that the satmar waged a violent attack against the israeli police.
    ie., because i’m more likely to believe in the innocence of an anti-zionist chasid than the cops who i’ve seen drag homeless teenagers into alleyways and beat them (which i’m in the processs of documenting) i’m a nazi.
    shtreimel: i’m holding my tongue. call me a nazi again and you’re banned.

  18. Dan,
    You used the word “POGROM” and “STORMTROOPER” when refering to Jews. I did not. I stated that nazis/holocaust deniers do the same when addressing Jews. You don’t like that…take it up with them.
    The fact that you justify your use of “pogrom” and “stormtrooper”, instead of apologizing for the misuse of this term, speaks to your f’ed politics.
    My Zaddie – who lost family due to Pogroms and Stormtroopers – would’ve spit in your face due to your ill choice of terminology.

  19. “here’s a q for you shtreimel — what hasidic sect do you belong to?”
    I admire the Chassidut very much. Spent many ‘o Shabbats with Belz Chassidim in Outremont (Montreal). But I’m a one foot in, one foot out, Yid who’s theology is informed by Conservative Judaism, yet respects the rigors/consistency of Orthodox Judaism. What’s your point?

  20. all four of my grandparents are shoah survivors who lost their families. my family on my mother’s side is munkacz. satmar has been our peops since the shtetl, particularly because munkacz used to be the leading anti-zionist sect. you know what i see when i look at that? i see a gang of thugs storming into my shteeble because of our unsavory politics. i’m sticking up for my own. i’m defending jews by showing other jews who they look like. that’s not outrageous — that’s the only way to get through their thick friggin’ skulls.
    secular israeli police may be jews, but there’s nothing jewish about the way they act. for example, my sister was recently attacked in her apartment and maced the guy who attacked her. the police treated her as if she were the criminal.
    in other words — fuck the police. i’ll defend a jew-in-the-street, before a jew-in-uniform any day of the week.
    what sect do you belong to? my guess is one hostile to satmar to being with.

  21. Gee, Shtreimel. Where oh where did you learn to hurl those two specific nazi illusions? Not from that guy at other website you openly prefer, is it?
    Having said that, Mobius, what happened at that shul, while really disgusting, is not the same as a progrom.

  22. clearly it’s not a pogrom and yes, i admit, i clearly chose the language to incite anger. the anger tho, should not be directed at me. it should be directed towards the fucking gestapo that is destroying the essence of everything we as a people are meant to stand against.

  23. I hear that, but when we use hyperbole, we lose the moral high ground in terms of debate, as the issue itself will be dismissed by the fact that we are emplying hyperbole, and we end up merely preaching to the choir. Which I know is not your goal. If it were your goal, I would accept that.

  24. because i’m trying to make a point.
    say it with me kids: brownshirts. what the bund and the hareidim — or anyone else with a shred of awareness in their skull — would’ve said to fascist zionist camp 70 years ago today makes me a nazi and a holocaust revisionist. this is how they’ve “won.” this is how they’ve perverted the discourse. this is why chomsky says, “the views i hold used to be called liberal zionism. now they’re called anti-zionism.” and the jewish masses are completely oblivious to this wool that’s been pulled over their eyes.

  25. You’d protect a Jew in the streets any day? Sounds like a Satmar to me. Yeah, right.
    The things that Neturei Karta does are embarrassing and only provide fuel to self-proclaimed enemies of the Jews. I’m not saying that showing discipline and blind support for Israel and other Jews is the only proper thing to do (that would make me sound like a fascist), but when we get carried away with criticizing ourselves, we are demonstrating against our own religious/ethnic identity, one that binds Jews together as a people. And I know Israel may have its own issues with Jewish identity, and I’m not saying that every Jew has to agree with every Israeli policy. But you don’t betray your own people with a holier-than-thou attitude.
    The video is pretty horrible to watch. There may be some things that we are not being told, but Israeli policemen should probably clean up their act. I see it as part of the care-free attitude that Israelis have a lot of the time. They act without concern for what others think or for what is really appropriate. As for what they were thinking, while they did act wrongly, the police are probably sick of the vile, demoralizing comments and slogans directed at them from certain anti-Zionist sects. I vividly remember the spraypaint in Ramat Beit Shemesh that says, “Tzionim lo yehudim,” or “Zionists are not Jews.” Sure, the policemen should not have taken their anger out on the haredim the way they did, and some of them might be inherently biased against ultraorthodox Jews. That does not excuse certain haredim for their disgusting antics and behaviors toward their fellow Jews whom they wouldn’t count for a minyan.
    And by the way, Chomsky is a sellout, a liar, and a supporter of Holocaust revisionists. He would have probably helped the gestapo find Jews if he had the chance.

  26. Matt, I think any Jew who beats the crap out of a guy with a streimel has obviously been provoked by anti-Zionist graffiti. Indeed, someone had demoralized them previously, and he probably wore a streimel, if not shtreimel himself. Both sides are wrong. So too, when a Hasid throws a stone at a secular Jew driving on shabbat, he is probably just sick of the vile comments he had heard from another secular Jew who had demoralized him. Both sides are right to blame other Jews who look like a third Jew who harassed them or still another Jew at a different time.
    I am now going to bang my head against the wall for having demoralized myself by demoralizing others who demoralized yet someone else entirely. It is wrong, but it is understandable. I blame Chomsky for my actions. He probably would have banged my head against the wall for me if he were here, so I may as well blame him.

  27. chomsky did NOT support faurrison! he supported his RIGHT TO PUBLISH. ie., he supported FREE SPEECH. how many times do we need to go over that shit?
    i don’t agree with everything NK says or does, but i support their right to do it without being physically assaulted in politically motivated attacks.
    also, israel does more itself to “provide fuel to self-proclaimed enemies of the Jews” than NK ever will, this being one such example.

  28. we’re with you mobius. fuck the police. especially jewish cops. we should be self-governing without recourse to our own brown shirts.

  29. Chomsky is so overwhelmed by his own need to blame his own people, Israel, and America. You know it. In that video, he promotes the myth of cantonization and says that Arafat was right to dismiss the offer. Nevermind the fact that Clinton himself said that Arafat got the best offer he was going to get and that he completely puts the blame on him. So does Prince Bandar, even. And I’m basing that on an article I read in The New Yorker, not just The Case for Israel. You have to admit, Dersh looked a bit more sophisticared since he had actually met with the actual players in the Middle East conflict negotiations. On the other hand, he’s a chronic name-dropper and has a big ego, and both he and Chomsky bickered like a married couple.
    Do I love Dersh? No. I agree that Jews have been a bit hysterical and trigger-happy with the anti-Semitism charge. And he does represent a remnant of the Israel-can-do-no-wrong advocacy camp that developed (or as far as I know, sprung up again) after the outbreak of the intifada that is becoming obsolete. But I can’t stand Chomsky. He’s pretty much Dersh’s polar opposite, as far as I’m concerned.
    To tell you all the truth, I don’t know where to go with this. I just want an unbiased account of history in Israel. It should come from a source that isn’t on a campaign to protect Israel’s reputation, but also doesn’t see Israel and Jews as responsible for all of the world’s problems.
    There are serious issues in Israel that don’t seem like they will be repaired any time soon. Sitting back and saying that Israel should not exist in the first place (regardless of facts) and expressing biased cynicism about every move made by it won’t help. You can’t move forward when you do that. On the other hand (and there always seems to be another hand), suppressing criticism where it’s due and any other unfortunate facts would be censorship.
    My post has very little point. Consider it the rambling of a painfully confused soul.
    C’mon Mobius. I know you. You know you. You know that I know that you know you.

  30. “we’re with you mobius. fuck the police”
    Yeah, ok Easy E.
    “clearly it’s not a pogrom and yes, i admit, i clearly chose the language to incite anger. the anger tho, should not be directed at me.”
    So you know it’s not a Pogrom but you chose to title your post “Israel’s Pogrom”. And since YOU chose the word Pogrom on a post YOU created on a site YOU created, who shall we direct our anger at (the very anger you purposely set out to create)? You reap what you sow Dan, and this ain’t the first time.
    But wait…
    “the fucking gestapo ”
    Ah…more Nazi imagery. Are we refering to the Israeli police again Dan? Is this what you anarchists call alternative thought? Funny, it seems to be quite mainstream to label all those folks we don’t agree with “nazi”…”hitler”, etc.
    The video is ambiguous and doesn’t tell us anything about the event or the IDF or the Israeli police. But forget the video…trust Dan, because he’s faced ‘dem Brownshirts and knows a thing or two.
    Obnoxious.

  31. Clearly it’s not a pogrom and yes, i admit, i clearly chose the language to incite anger.
    There is an interesting set of pointers about lashon hara here. I would really suggest that if the intention is not to follow such ideas then the image of the Hafetz Hayyim and notice that ts is a lashon harah-free zone. Lashon hara is certainly not limited to personal attacks, although that is of course an issue as well. It notably has a great deal to do with rechilut and with sarcasm and contemptuous tone.
    Why not give it a try?

  32. the tradition of using terms describing non-jewish attackers of Jews to describe Jews doing similar (read: non-identical) things goes back a long time, at least to the mishnah/midrash, Yerovoam son of Nevat is accused of being Greek (in a time where greeks didn’t exist) and is common is kabbalistic/zoharic discourse, where it’s understood the Evil Jewish Leadership (in every generation) Is the Eirav Rav, which Is Amalek Mamash.
    We’re allowed to use the words that describe atrocities and sub-atrocious injustices done to us to describe things that we ourselves, personally or communally, do. Otherwise, we may think that, because we have been victims, we could never victimize.
    Really, having been through a holocaust doesn’t make us holocaust proof. It makes us more likely to do, or justify the doing of, that kind of thing to another a generation or so later, as any abusive-parent-son-of-a busive-parent might be able to warn you. And maybe we really need to hear these terms very loudly in our heads whenever we see them, even if we see fit to justify them however seems appropriate.
    A friend told me the other day, Law and Order— that’s Nazism. At which point i decided to accpet and use my inner nazi in order to help get things done, the things that I know mine furher wants to happen. Mach shnell mamish.

  33. Without knowing the context, no one can pass judgement on what was seen in the video.
    So, Mobius, you throw a “sieg heil?”
    To honor the memory of your slaughtered relatives, I suppose?
    Poor confused you.

  34. cantonization is not a myth it’s SHARON’S OWN TERMINOLOGY!!!
    jonny — poor confused you if you think that making such a statement against unchecked police powers used to brutalize an ethnic minority and other political opponents in a state “born out of the ashes of the shoah” is something unjustifiable and wrong.

  35. btw, shtreimel, i find it laughable — LAUGHABLE — that you would say that it’s hypocritical for me to criticize ann coulter for calling a media watchdog group “nazi blockwatchers” because they have the nerve to fact check; and then use nazi imagery to portray a group of thugs in uniform racing into a synagogue and beating jews. what an outlandish comparison! jew beaters in uniform nazis? how DARE i?!

  36. yeah well, clearly it’s not incomprehensible that jews would run around calling their political opponents — so much so that the knesset had to pass a law prohibiting MKs from calling each other nazis on the floor. it shouldn’t surprise you at all.

  37. Oy moby. I have family members who are cops and border police. They are not what I would call thugs. What happenned in the video is unfortunate, but seriously man … this is wou not a pogrom. What would the Chofetz Chaim say?

  38. i heard a teaching the other day, “the chofetz chayim is responsible for the shoah because nobody wanted to talk about it.” an ad hominem attack meant to personally demean a person is one thing. discussing a group’s behavior and how it’s foreboding of incredibly dark futures is something else all together.

  39. Surprise, surprise – I’m with mob on this one.
    I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it a million times; There are several thousand Israeli police officers, including blue shirts, yasam grey shirts, border police, and plainclothes ‘detectives’. There are some tzaddikim that will help young children cross the street, there are many who just think it is a job, and BEWARE: there are many, and I quote an ex-cop friend, ‘ who if they weren’t in the police, would be in jail’.
    BEWARE of the plainclothes ones. Who don’t feel they have to respect the law and identify themselves,
    BEWARE of the yasam grey shirts who are trained to be human bulldogs.
    BEWARE of the border police who sometimes like to make golani look like ballet school.
    and BEWARE of the blue shirts who are underpayed and overworked blue collar folks.
    Shtreimel found the context of the pogrom and there is absolutely no reason for the Israeli stormtroopers to run into a beit midrash, even if it is satmar, to look for some Chaim Yankel (they all look alike) that might have punched a cop. In a real democarcy, there is absolutely no reason for the police who uphold the law, to lose their cool, beat bystanders, and then get the case thrown out of court on ‘lack of public interest’. Force might be needed to control a wild criminal, but excessive force unfortunately is not the exception here, it is the norm and it’s not condemned either. Unfortuantely, if you are not white, secular and affluent, stay out of trouble, because this is what you might expect for standing out.
    Many orange protesters still have scars to show for the kind and fair treatment of the police during the period prior to the expulsion.
    This might be a consolation to some, but if I remember correctly, 5 Satmars were seriously injured and 6 policemen too.

  40. This whole conversation is ridiculous.
    SHTRIEMEL/MOBIUS:
    Police are, by nature, an organized hierarchal gang legitimized by whoever’s in authority… and by those who don’t oppose them.
    We glorify the police when they are benign… and we demonize them when they are oppressors.
    But the very NATURE of police and gangs is that when disrespected, measures must be taken to show strength and instill fear: in this case, the Satmar got uppity and the cops smacked them in the collective mouth.
    Is it morally correct? Is it Jewish?
    No.
    But Israel is a POLITCAL entity and that is the nature of the nation-state: order at all costs. Conscripting shit-hearts as policemen is nothing new – come to Kingsbridge, we breed them by the metric ton. Pig-eyed bastards who’d be up in Otisville, 25 on the wake up – except for the BADGE.
    But you know what? They are still the FIRST people we call when there is a rape, murder, robbery, car accident, fistfight or civil disturbance. We instill as much power in them as when they step on our necks. And some are good guys trying to helpt the community, and some are vicious cocksuckers who you wouldn’t piss on if they were on fire.
    To endorse them carte blanche is to do Israel a disservice.
    To mark them as ‘Nazis’ does Israel a disservice.
    One is not a greater disservice than the other, and frankly, this whole argument smacks of idioitic one-upmanship.
    enough all fuckin’ ready…

  41. Were anyone to doubt that the INTENTION of those cops was brutality, or that Mobius shouldn’t have used ‘pogram’ and ‘stormtroopers’ in his post, just check out what the cops did AFTER they billy-clubbed the guy a couple of times: they dragged him off by his beard!
    Does this act evoke any repugnant memories?
    Dan, you’re getting better and better!

  42. Dan:
    Use of the Nazi imagery seems to me to be a bit extreme. When John Brown made the comparison to Rodney King, he forgot to mention that what made the Rodney King assault so publicized was A) the riots that followed B) the legacy of police brutality against African Americans in Los Angeles that was prevalent years before. I’m going to take a stab and say that similar circumstances don’t exist with Satmar.
    Furthermore, while definitely wrong, there have been worse cases of police brutality, both in Israel and the world. Think the 13 Israeli Arabs that were killed at the beginning of the second intifada or the Seattle protests in 1999. I was not present at either, but I have friends who were and I have seen the pictures. What the Satmar experienced, according to the video, was NOTHING by comparison.
    BUT . . .
    shtriemel, I didn’t see any Satmar hitting anyone, did you? It’s quite easy to shrug off police brutality against someone who doesn’t share your views. As for me, I wouldn’t be able to stand Satmar. Their anti-Zionism is atrocious, and, more importantly, especially for a secular Jew like me, their views towards Reform Jews is abominable (which could explain their anti-Zionism. I’ve always maintained that it isn’t the Zionism itself which is troubling for anti-Zionist orthodox sects, it is the secularistic aspect of Zionism which they hate). That said, the wanton cruelty displayed by the police is simply immoral, unnecessary, and completely out of line.
    But, hey, that’s my view. And I’ve seen how this thread has progressed thus far. Guys, I’m just expressing my view, I’m not personally attacking anyone. People in general in online forums need to learn to not be so hostile. So, please don’t attack me. I just wanted to throw my views out there.

  43. “Does this act evoke any repugnant memories? ”
    No. But you’re analogy is a tad gross.
    “shtriemel, I didn’t see any Satmar hitting anyone, did you?”
    Jared I addressed this issue many times:
    “Now as somone who worked with undercover police officers in Vancouver – did a stint as a Child Protection Investigator – I can tell you that we approached the homes of violent offenders differently i.e. much more aggressively, than we did a home where there wasn’t a violent offender. And if you didn’t know the context of the situation, you’d say we were aggressive, mean, nasty and plain ol’ bad guys.”
    Unless u were there or can provide more footage, perhaps 5-10 min worth, I’ll go out on a limb and say that:
    a) since the chassidim just happened to have a camera in a shul on passover
    b) since these chassidim are PR savy (see nk.org)
    c) since they’ve been broadcasting “zionist crimes” for as long as I’ve been on the ‘net
    d) since they have a huge following of anit-Zionist types all over the net frothing at the mouth for a video like this
    e) the filming/editing is shot to look like innocent shul goers being attacked by police (I mean c’mon folks…30 secs of video?)
    …the whole scene was planned, instigated and set-up by neutrei karta/satmar.

  44. shtreimel,
    I wasn’t there, but you don’t know what is happening in Israel.
    JaredGoldberg: the legacy of police brutality against: satmar
    exists. The same way that Mob and his friends go to protest the fence every friday, these satmars have been protesting the kvish6 construction up north. Trust me, no love between Satmar and the Yasam.

  45. For those who are still wondering, The person who is being led out of the synogogue is a Convicted Murderer, Sentanced for life. He shot and killed an off duty Soldier.
    Most of this was not released to the media, But there are various news services that have pulished certain details. Sketch or not the story was Proven to be true by a Police spokeswomen.

  46. I lived in Israel for 4 years. I was a long haired hippie type. Mostly in Tel Aviv, but for the year I was in Jerusalem I was nearly hit by a stone from a Haredi while walking from Yeshivah Ohr Samayach to Ben Yehuda. While in Tel Aviv, my friends would say, “just stay FAR away from the cops. If you have a problem, don’t go to them. Go to your friends. The cops have no time for you, and will hurt you for fun.” I live in NYC now, but I’ve never felt so unsafe as when I was in Israel. It’s all so very, very sad.

  47. discussing a group’s behavior and how it’s foreboding of incredibly dark futures is something else all together
    Um, you’re changing the topic. This wasn’t about discussing anybody’s behaviour, it was the insulting way in which you chose to discuss it. Do you really think it’s impossible to do so without screaming Nazi?

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