Anti-Disengagment Students Plan Hunger Strike
Ynet reports,
A group of right-wing students is planning to initiate an anti-disengagement hunger strike this coming Sunday, right after Independence Day.
The group is comprised of mostly secular students who reside within the Green Line . The students are planning to set up a protest tent near the Prime Minister’s Office in Jerusalem.
The idea of a hunger strike was raised in Yesha Council discussions several months ago, but the proposal was rejected after some officials opposed it, saying it was a radical step. However, the students believe a hunger strike would sweep public opinion in favor of the settlers.
Er, isn’t that assur, doing intentional harm to one’s body?
You mean like throwing yourself in front of a bulldozer?
Ha. Cosign, Dave.
standing in front of a bulldozer does not necessarily mean you’ll be hurt. the hope is that the person driving the bulldozer will have moral compunctions about his actions and cease to drive forward. if you’re injured, you didn’t cause harm to yourself, the bulldozer driver caused harm to you by proceeding knowing full well that you were in his path.
that’s very different from starving yourself.
In Jewish law, it is assur to place yourself in harm’s way. When standing in front of a bulldozer, the prospect of harm is not certain, but there is a real risk.
As you saw in the Corrie case, accidents happen. If you are insinuating that the driver purposely drove over her, I suggest you know something we don’t, or something that the evidence doesn’t reveal.
In contrast, fasting for ONE day is hardly assur, or placing yourself at risk.
there is a tradition of starving yourself in order to change reality, even on holidays as was the case with Esther’s fast, which came up on Pesach. “better to fast one pesach and be able to keep the others” is the talmudic vort on it.
a hunger strike is not a one day fast; and no i wasn’t insinuating that i know something about corrie’s death more than anyone else. though i would say, based on the number of incidents of international activists being shot or otherwise brutalized by the idf, that i’m not content blowing her death off as a purely accidental.
If the strike goes on for more than one day, and gets to the point where it endangers their health, then I agree with you.
As for Corrie, given the number of incidents of “peace activists” lying, I am very content with the investigation findings.
the hope is that the people enforcing disengagement will have moral compunctions about their actions and cease disengagement. if you’re injured, you didn’t cause harm to yourself, the government caused harm to you by proceeding knowing full well that you were engaged in a hunger strike.
Last…: “the hope is that the people enforcing disengagement will have moral compunctions about their actions and cease disengagement….”
What “moral compunctions”? The Israeli government is disengaging from territory it never annexed.
the hope is that the person driving the bulldozer will have moral compunctions about his actions and cease to drive forward. if you’re injured, you didn’t cause harm to yourself, the bulldozer driver caused harm to you by proceeding knowing full well that you were in his path.
the hope is that the people enforcing disengagement will have moral compunctions about their actions and cease disengagement. if you’re injured, you didn’t cause harm to yourself, the government caused harm to you by proceeding knowing full well that you were engaged in a hunger strike.
Exactly…what “moral compunctions”?
Mobiusky says “based on the number of incidents of international activists being shot or otherwise brutalized by the idf”
Please dont be so eager to condemn the IDF. If any other military had the same scrutiny from the UN, Red Cross, Red Crescent, Red Magen David, 6,000 independent human rights associations, Tnu L’chayot Lichyot (Animal Rights), CNN, ABC, MSNBC, Jon Stewart, John Kerry, King Abdula and Queen Latifah, their militaries would have terrible reputations of brutality.
And this is not even putting into account the fact that Arabs habitualy and sytematicaly lie. You may recall the so called “Jenin Massacre,” or the footage of a 6-year old Palestinian girl being shot by the IDF (As was reported by all of the above – save Queen Latifah) until autopsy proved that she died from Palestinian fire, or the time that the NY Times (front page) showed a picture of an Israeli cop viciously swinging his batton over the head of a poor, blood covered “Palestinian” teenager, who just happened to be a Jewish American kid from Chicago and the Cop was chasing off the Fuckin Palestinians who were trying to kill him.
Unless you are John Brown and it is really all a big conspiracy. Probably Meir Kahane, we all know he wasnt really killed.
As far as a hunger strike goes, that is plain stupid, it wont accomplish a damn thing. If they want to help their cause, and they dont mind some bodily harm, let them go to the settllements and chain their bodies to the roofs.
(Why is everyone trying to be a Rabbi and give the halachik perspective on hunger strikes – these kids are secular!)
Esther called the Jews to fast for three days. That this was on pesach is an incredible hidush for me. Was this on the chag itself or chol hamoed? This could mean that the Jews understood that the decree was clear and present danger and that they knew that giving up the explicit mitzvahs of the seder.
A month ago, their was an unprecedented fast on behalf of Gush Katif, endorsed by Rav Eliyah and Rav Shapira in order to try and change Hashem’s decision. Unprecedented in modern times, but based on Esther’s/Hadas’ call to fast.
FWIW,
these ‘hunger strikes’ are usually liquid-only diets, but we’ll see how/if this proceedes. Yashir koach nonetheless. The left is really chewing it’s hat seeing as how the right-wing is pulling out all the stops and using their tactics.
The left is really chewing it’s hat seeing as how the right-wing is pulling out all the stops and using their tactics.
When the right does stuff like this, they usually come across as either just plain pathetic and irrelevant (like these students) or out and out crazy (“hey guys, here’s a great plan to get the world to belive in our cause – let’s put orange stars of david on our clothes like the ones the jews in the holocaust had to wear!)
All the stops and tactics the right i using don’t seem to be working from where I sit, so i have to believe those hats are being chewed because leather tatstes good, not for anyother reason. YMMV
I don’t see anything wrong with the strike although I doubt it will help.
The settler movement’s first step must be
-Repentence Teshuva
-they must admit that Meir Kahane is right and that our enemies must be removed from our land.
That is the only ultimate way out. If they don’t do that – and they have always distanced themselves saying “we are not Kahane! We are not ‘radical’ ”
-well if they continue to ignore logic then they have only themselves to blame.
These hunger strikes typically allow drinking water. Otherwise it is not possible to go much beyond 36-48 hours.
This negates its status as a “fast” under Jewish law.
Picking up your rifle and heading out into the battlefield is also endangering one’s health. But in certain circumstances it is a mitzvah.
“The group is comprised of mostly secular students…”
“Isn’t that assur, doing intentional harm…”
Why would a group of “secular” folk care if halakha considers a hunger strike to be “assur?”
the shulchan aruch says you have to fast when goyim are taking away land from Jews
Bob,
Nothing is being taken away because it was never annexed by Israel in the first place.
First it needs to be realized that PM Sharon is not going to stop because some people are upset. Remember Bush going to Iraq? He feels that this is something that needs to be done and no amount of Kahanist yelling or student hunger-striking is going to make it better.
Furthermore, fasting is not assur, in fact, many people are known to hold fasts for a cause, and yes, the Shulchan Aruch says one must fast if goyim take land from Jews. During Shemona Esrei one is compelled to say additional prayers while holding a private fast. A fast, however, is not known to be a plea with men, but a plea with Hashem.
Hashem is the one behind all of this, and by fasting one is essentially attemptiung to appeal to the Ultimate Judge. I think it’s commendable what they are doing (or planning to do) and I respect them for it, but I don’t know what it will do, short of getting His devine attention (G-dwilling)
The thing about fasting, in the case of the Ester fast at least, that facinates me the most, is the surety of it’s effectiveness. My understanding is that it was on yom tov itself that the fast was set, and the trust in it’s power to affect reality is kinda shocking… does fasting ALWAYS work?
I mean, what else do the settlers have if not violence? hunger strikes, especially if some miraculous efficasy comes out of them, seem like a better alternative.
I am trying to ignore ZIONISTA’s heresy, but s/he keeps on rambling: “Nothing is being taken away because it was never annexed by Israel in the first place.”
Ma kesher dude? The fact the it wasnt annexed doesnt make it any less Israel. There are social and political reasons why these areas were never “annexed.” (I am no expert, maybe Joe Schmo or Ben-David can help out . . .)
If you insist on continuously waving the annexation card please have the decency of providing a logic to go along with it.
Yes Merliner,
Of course these are part of Israel. The reason all of Israel was not annexed is the same reason the Sinai desert was not annexed: fear of the nations.
Israel is run by secular people who fear Bush but not the Burning Bush.
That is the reason Dayan ran after the Arabs who were fleeing after their war backfired in 48′. He said to the arabs: stay in Israel we will make life good for you. He was concerned that the world shouldn’t say that Israel is forcing people out- even though Israel was attacked.
After the Yom Kippur war Israel had the Egyptian army surrounded and retreated under US pressure.
We have the same situation today…two years ago it was the Golan we were giving ton Syria now its Gaza and the West Bank and possibly Jerusalem.
What’s wrong with Jews – are they really that foolish?!
In short you can answer zionista by saying that reason it wasn’t annexed until now is because the people running Israel are like zionista – its a vicious cycle.
Thanks.
Merliner: “If you insist on continuously waving the annexation card please have the decency of providing a logic to go along with it.”
It’s not Israel if no Israeli government claims it.
Or maybe we prefer expert insight like Joe Schmo’s, “it wasn’t annexed until now is because the people running Israel are like zionista – its a vicious cycle.”
What does annexed mean, Zionista? In what way didnt Israel claim it. It is on the Israeli map, It is protected by Israeli border guards, it provides Israel with its produce and it has thousands of Jewish inhabitants. Additionally it is militarily stratigical to maintain this part of the land.
Also, Zionista, the Pslestinians are sending HUNDREDS of missiles at these Jewish neighborhoods, does acquiesing this land create a positive precedent, namely, killing Jews begets real estate.
Zionista, this is what my logic dictates. Please elighten me, what part of the previous paragraph is incorrect?
Wouldnt it make more sense to pursue and punish those who have fired missiles at us, as opposed to giving them more firing grounds? What am I missing?
The whole ‘annexed’ issue is mute. No one recognizes any Jewish land grab and no one should delude themselves into thinking that leaving Gush Katif will allow us to keep ‘settlement blocs’. The ‘nations’ want us at the green line and nothing more.
On fasting, it should be stressed that simply fasting does not do the job. The whole idea of fasting is not to suffer, rather it is to make a physical statement that you are freeing yourself from physical needs in order to concentrate on increasing the spirituality. The quintessential fasting on Yom Kippur is supposed to allow us to utilize as much time as possible to repent that would have otherwise been spent on the evening meal, the morning meal, and afternoon snacks as well as the fratinizing and flirting that occurs on chag.
So secular people fasting with no ‘kavannah’ are merely trying to call attention to the cause while religious jews fasting with kavannah is the way to go.
Merliner: “…does acquiesing this land create a positive precedent, namely, killing Jews begets real estate.”
Disengagement is not a reward for firing Qassams, any more than divorce is a reward for infidelity. If Palestinians had their own recognized government, that government would be responsible for the Qassams in a most national sense. Until Palestinians acquire the actual responsibilities of statehood, Israel will be unable to treat Palestinians firing rockets at Jews with all the severe international criminality it deserves, and Zahal is just another street gang in a overarmed turf war.
And feel free to look up “annexation” in your favorite dictionary.
Okay Zionista. I am starting to like where this is going. Let me know if you support me on this:
If (God Forbid) the Disengagement occurs – which means that the Palestinians now have a sovreign state – and a single rocket is fired at Israel, regardless if it causes any bodily harm to anyone, we consider that all-out war, send a shitload of tomahawks and bunker busters on Gush Katif and send all of its inhabitants to . . . Kirkuk or some other shithole and raise the Israeli flag over that entire region. Is that cool in your book?
Merliner,
It would be cooler if it didn’t seem like you looked forward to it so much.
But will you go on record saying that such a move is just?
“On record”? We’re a bunch of comments on a blog, for chrissakes. Let’s see if your wet dream comes true first.
Merliner as you can see from Zionista’s comments she is in no mood for logic.
There is a fundamental question here that has to be addressed.
What makes Israel the Jewish people’s?
Is it the words or “annexation” by people or is it G-ds gift to the Jewish people.
If its just based on man ie the Israeli government well then just like they annex it today they can also give it away tomorro. If you “own” something then you can give it away.
Thats why I say that the only way to really answer this is to tell all the it is G-d’s gift and no one has a right to give it away. They can give what they gave- not what our Father in heaven gave.
–Say it Proud-there is nothing to feel guilty about!
Zionista-
My point is not to have you go on record – my point is that anything the Israeli Left decides is right or wrong – that will be your position. The matras always change. “We were the aggressors!” now it is “We never annexed!” what willl it be next?
I have a lot more confidence in saying this is my land because G-d gave it to my parents as an inheritance.
Joe Schmo is a he-ro.
and send all of its inhabitants to . . . Kirkuk or some other shithole and raise the Israeli flag over that entire region. Is that cool in your book?
Kirkuk is Kurdish territory, and the Kurds have been strong friends of Israel and Jews. Unwittingly, statements like this kind of reveal the dumbass side of Zionism, the same fantasy land that the Schmo’s among us live in. That somehow if you just sort of keep typing Kahane catch phrases that makes for strong reason and logic (“if you don’t agree with me you must be a self-hating jew!). Merliner, it comes as no surprise that Schmo is your he-ro.
So there we were a couple thousand years waiting around in exile for God’s messiah to blow us off some more, until Herzl and other secular proto-Zionists decide that the same nationalist trend that’s good enough for everybody else just might be good enough for us. Meanwhile back in the cosmos, the messiah is too busy jerking off and misses the murder of 3/4 of Europe’s Jews (1/3 of all Jews at the time), and God gets all the credit for the grand opening back in the old neighborhood…. But I’m the one in no mood for logic (and somehow transgender into a chick too).
Are you guys ever embarassed when you sober up and read what you wrote?
Zionista et al:
Watch this http://www.baitle.org/movie/se… It is in hebrew.
I havent cried in a long time.