Antisemitism: Alive and Well
Such a lovely world in which we live…
Here’s a quick look at the last two weeks…
Stereotyping: The Malaysian PM says “Jews run the world”; A major donor of a Georgia congressman seeking reelection referred to the congressman’s opponent as “that Jew boy down in Savannah” from the podium at a recent fundraiser; “Demeza Delhomme, 55, a four-year [Spring Valley] village trustee and the Democratic candidate for the District 13 County Legislature seat, said on his cable access show that all Jews have food stamps and are on Section 8, a federal housing-subsidy program”; Greg Easterbrook, a senior editor at The National Review says in a column that Jewish executives “worship money above all else”; and a recent poll says “Russians believe that the two most prominent characteristics of Jews are slyness and stinginess, nearly half (46 percent) would disapprove of a close relative marrying a Jew, and only 1 percent express admiration for Jews.”
Propaganda: Antisemitic literature is cropping up on people’s front lawns in all parts of the country—last week in Massachussetts and Wednesday in Missouri; “Fliers in Germany blamed Jews for contaminating a lake near Berlin and the trees around it;” and pro-Palestinian students at the University College Cork in Ireland are keeping a list of nearly 150 American Jews in what some are referring to as an “Internet version of the Nazi yellow star.”
Vandalism: “A Jewish cemetery in Germany was desecrated. Swastikas and anti-Jewish statements were spray painted on gravestones this week in a cemetery in Beeskow”; A Holocaust memorial was also desecrated in Germany this week; A Jewish cemetary was desecrated in Greece last week; On Monday, vandals attacked a Holocaust memorial in Belarus; This past weekend, a sukkah erected in observance of Sukkot at Toronto’s York University was destroyed by vandals in what campus officials describe as a hate crime; Last Saturday night an arsonist burned a San Diego synagogue to the ground; and on Erev Yom Kippur an arsonist set ablaze the homes of several Hasidic families in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.
Murder: Two Jews were beaten to death in Russia within the last two weeks.
How can any self-repsecting Jew honestly be anti-Zionist? Really?
Why? What is causing this rise of anti-semitism?
#1 anti-israel rhetoric
#2 neocon conspiracy theories
Are you telling me that this huge rise in anti-semitism is solely due to the same pissed off people talking louder than they used to?
Come on mo, you can do much better than that.
btw, yeah it sucks bycer is off in az. I might have had a chance to work with him soon if he didn’t go.
how can any self-respecting jew be anti-zionist? not really sure what you mean mob – is it ‘anti-zionist’ to be critical of the actions of the State of israel? is it anti-american to criticize the gov’t here? it isnt’t – it’s our patriotic duty. personally, i see the world has a tough time separating the acts of the State of israel from those of jews worldwide and its led to some really horrible ignorance and violence. however, many jews are just as eager to connect the acts of israel to those of judaism… as far as i’m concerned the State is like any other: it has geopolitical motives, it has corruption however, its citizens (nor jews in general) are not in any meaningful way complicit for the misdeeds of the state.. it’s far more absurd than blaming some mormon schoolteacher for the bombing of iraq because she paid her taxes. it’s irrational because it misplaces the blame for some real problems, thus making them a lot harder to solve.
being anti-zionist does not mean being against the actions of the israeli government. being anti-zionist means you are against the philosophy of zionism, which is jewish autonomy and self-determination in the interest of freeing jews from oppression at the hands of non-jews through the creation of a jewish state.
while zionism still applies to the notion of population transfer (ie., moving the jewish population to israel), we are living in a post-zionist era, whereas the initial goals of zionism have been met: the creation of a jewish state.
to be anti-zionist means that you do not believe jews should be entitled to their own sovereign state.
it is a misnomer to label the expansion of greater israel (as is currently perpetuated by the sharon administration) as zionism. it is not. it is political corruption.
thus when radical leftists at IMC brand israelis and american jews as “zionazis,” they are implying that zionism necessitates ethnic cleansing. this was not the original intent of zionist leaders, but as the arab world came to reject israeli independence, it has gradually become necessary to protect the lives of the jewish population.
ethnic cleansing, however, does not imply genocide. in israel’s case, it most commonly takes the form of expulsion. such expulsions did not take place until the modern era, and claims otherwise are based in revisionist history which serves to meet the agenda of an antisemitic (or more accuarately, anti-jewish) arab populace.
a self-respecting jew may, will, and should criticize the israeli government, especially when it ceases to serve the interests of the people. however, to deny the need for a jewish national home is an absurdity in light of the ongoing victimization of jewish people throughout the world. up until 1948, jews were the only oppressed minority without a national home. now that we have one, we should most certainly take stock and clean house of our more undesirable elements.
again, to clarify, to be anti-zionist is not to be anti-israel. to be anti-zionist is, essentially, to be anti-semitic, in that an anti-zionist believes that jews should not be entitled to a safehaven from universal oppression.
conversely, to be anti-israel is to oppose the actions of the israeli government. zionism’s task was primarily completed when the nation of israel was formed. to be anti-israel is to concern one’s self with the mess jews have made of their country once they got their hands on it.
up until 1948, jews were the only oppressed minority without a national home
Is this really so? please
again, to clarify, to be anti-zionist is not to be anti-israel. to be anti-zionist is, essentially, to be anti-semitic, in that an anti-zionist believes that jews should not be entitled to a safehaven from universal oppression.
How exactly does Israel act as a “safehaven” ? I would suggest that Jews in Israel are in more danger than just about anywhere else in the world that has a significant Jewish community – say, New York or London or Paris or Amsterdam.
Could it be that some Jewish anti-zionists think that overall, the zionist experiment in Israel has not been good for the Jewish people ?
Could it be that some left-wing anti-zionists simply think that ethnic nationalism as an ethos is inherently unjust?
*Claps hands to the above*
Is this really so? please
name another ethnic minority without a homeland…
I would suggest that Jews in Israel are in more danger than just about anywhere else in the world that has a significant Jewish community – say, New York or London or Paris or Amsterdam.
and i would disagree. more israelis die in car crashes than they do terrorist attacks. unless you venture into areas that you really ought not to be in, or if you’re a settler leaving in an area where you really have no business being, you are very, very safe. in fact, you are safer than you are in america because everyone is packing and there are soldiers everywhere to protect you.
Could it be that some Jewish anti-zionists think that overall, the zionist experiment in Israel has not been good for the Jewish people?
the people who think that usually don’t identify as jews as so much as leftist anti-zionists. they’re usually non-religious or even anti-religious, and fall under the category of not self-respecting, but rather, self-hating jew.
Could it be that some left-wing anti-zionists simply think that ethnic nationalism as an ethos is inherently unjust?
sure. i think it’s unjust too. BUT — i also think that leftism tends to be over-idealistic and negates the reality of things, nameley being the fact that things are most certainly not the ideal they hope them to be.
like for example, argentina has a thriving anarchist movement at the moment, but for the last 50 years argentina has also had one of the largest thriving antisemitic and neo-nazi movements in the world. in fact, in 1994, the jcc in buenos aires was bombed.
actually, factually speaking, jews are usually the first victims of injustice in any far-left country. in every communist nation that’s existed government-sponsored pogroms against jews have taken place.
so, while i tend to share the same ideals you guys hold, i accept that the reality for jews is far graver than you care to admit.
name another ethnic minority without a homeland
There are many. Serbs, Croats, etc in the former Yugoslavia (until the war), Basques in Spain, Chechens in Russia, Native Americans (for all intensive purposes), Gypsies.
Can you name any ethnic nationalist movement in history that has ever resulted in a net gain in positive effects for the world ?
When I think back on ethnic nationalist movements in history(Nazi movement in Germany, Serbian Independence, ETA Basque Separatists in Spain) I think they are all disasters and result only in death and misery.
and i would disagree. more israelis die in car crashes than they do terrorist attacks. unless you venture into areas that you really ought not to be in, or if you’re a settler leaving in an area where you really have no business being, you are very, very safe. in fact, you are safer than you are in america because everyone is packing and there are soldiers everywhere to protect you.
As you well know, Jews here in America or Canada or Western Europe don’t live with regular gas mask drills, don’t need to carry guns, because it’s not necessary. That should make the difference clear.
What happens if some lunatic gets a nuke and sets it off in Israel? How is it a safe haven ?
the people who think that [zionism hasn’t been good for Jews] usually don’t identify as jews as so much as leftist anti-zionists. they’re usually non-religious or even anti-religious, and fall under the category of not self-respecting, but rather, self-hating jew.
Can you please explain why someone who thinks that the Ethnic Nationalism of Israel, which you yourself said is “unjust” has not been good for the Jews overall is “self-hating” ? It seems to have increased anti-semitism and cost many many lives.
You make it sound like “self respect” is synonymous with “ethnic nationalism”
sure. i think it’s unjust too. BUT — i also think that leftism tends to be over-idealistic and negates the reality of things, nameley being the fact that things are most certainly not the ideal they hope them to be.
In other words, if it’s “good for Israel” and unjust, then so be it ? Israel’s needs (‘reality’) trumps Justice ?
in every communist nation that’s existed government-sponsored pogroms against jews have taken place.
Really? Wow. When were the Cuban, North Korean, Vietnamese and Chinese government sponsored pogroms against Jews ?
actually, factually speaking, jews are usually the first victims of injustice in any far-left country.
Factually? It seems to me that most far left countries are probably in Central and South America and Asia and probably don’t have many if any Jews
To make one point more clear:
1) you said anyone who is self respecting must support zionism, which we agreed is at heart, ethnic nationalism
2) you said ethnic nationalism is unjust
3) you’re essentially saying that the only way to have self respect is to support injustice. To stand up against injustice = “self hating”
There are many. Serbs, Croats, etc in the former Yugoslavia (until the war), Basques in Spain, Chechens in Russia, Native Americans (for all intensive purposes), Gypsies.
no, see, all these people do have homelands. serbs & croats are yugoslavians. there are four spanish provinces and three french which are natively basque. they do “belong” somewhere. chechens do have chechnya. and gypsies are generally from rumania.
Can you name any ethnic nationalist movement in history that has ever resulted in a net gain in positive effects for the world ?
can you name a single country that doesn’t have an ethnic majority?
When I think back on ethnic nationalist movements in history(Nazi movement in Germany, Serbian Independence, ETA Basque Separatists in Spain) I think they are all disasters and result only in death and misery.
so the fact that persecuted people without a homeland continue to be persecuted while in pursuit homeland–that makes their fight for survival a disaster?
As you well know, Jews here in America or Canada or Western Europe don’t live with regular gas mask drills, don’t need to carry guns, because it’s not necessary. That should make the difference clear.
if you’ve seen bowling for colubmine you’d know that canada has one of the lowest murder rates in the world. israel’s murder rate is 40% below that.
What happens if some lunatic gets a nuke and sets it off in Israel? How is it a safe haven ?
in the meantime, dirty bombs, anthrax, federal buildings and world trade centers are falling down in america; in practically every country in the world islamic fundamentalists, left-wing, and right-wing extremists are committing acts of terrorism. what makes israel any different? the ira bombs england, the pakistanis bomb the indians, the fantical muslims bomb malaysia… what’s your point? there’s terrorism. deal with it. you’re still safer in israel statistically speaking.
Can you please explain why someone who thinks that the Ethnic Nationalism of Israel, which you yourself said is “unjust” has not been good for the Jews overall is “self-hating” ? It seems to have increased anti-semitism and cost many many lives.
ethnic nationalism is unjust if minority rights are not protected. i think the current actions of the israeli government are unjust — forcing israelis who wed palestinians to split from their spouses or leave the country. i think arab citizens who are mistreated by government officials or police do not deserve the hassles they get. i believe that minority rights should always be protected. but i don’t think that ethnic nationalism in-and-of-itself is unjust. every country on earth operates that way. why should israel be the only one that doesn’t?
let’s flip around your argument here — apparently white supremacists like rush limbaugh can’t handle the fact that black atheletes like donovan mcnabb get ahead in this world. just because that racist shit doesn’t like the fact that mcnabb’s succeeding on his own, mcnabb should quit playing football?
i’ve already demonstrated to you the fact that all over the world today people are seething with virulent antisemitism. only 60 years ago they were forcing jews into ovens. my grandmothers walk around with numbers tattooed on their arms. and you’ve got the gall to say that because the same people who’ve taken turns killing us for the last 2,000 years don’t like the fact that we have a thriving country, we should stop thriving?
gimme a fuckin’ break.
You make it sound like “self respect” is synonymous with “ethnic nationalism”
no, i make it sound like knowledge of self as opposed to self-loathing will bring one to recognize that ethnic nationalism is a necessary evil in order to maintain survival.
In other words, if it’s “good for Israel” and unjust, then so be it ? Israel’s needs (‘reality’) trumps Justice ?
good for israel? good for my family. good for me standing here right now. good for all jews everywhere who face the damacles sword of “world sentiments.” we see how well the world’s cared for us before. zionism is not unjust. the actions of the current israeli administration and/or the acts of individuals who participated in the israeli government and or army previously may be unjust. but zionism most certainly is NOT unjust, nor is israel’s right to existence and fight for survival.
Really? Wow. When were the Cuban, North Korean, Vietnamese and Chinese government sponsored pogroms against Jews ?
i’m sorry. i’d like to modify my statement to be EUROPEAN communist nations. jews had not yet emigrated in large numbers to latin america and the asian pacific until the nazis started killing them off.
Factually? It seems to me that most far left countries are probably in Central and South America and Asia and probably don’t have many if any Jews
you’d actually be very wrong about that. there are large jewish populations in latin america and east asia. there are also large numbers of antisemites there. or did you miss this post? http://www.jewschool.com/#106605872236963444
To make one point more clear:
1) zionism is ethnic nationalism .. not unwarranted nor unjust, but rather necessary ethnic nationalism
2) ethnic nationalism is unjust if and when minority rights are precluded … that does not make the reasons for the foundation of the state unjust, but rather the actions carried out by individuals within the nation’s government
3) that’s not what i’m saying at all and i really don’t appreciate having my words twisted around like that. it’s underhanded.
to be self-hating is to believe you should lie down and let the world kill you off “in the name of justice” because they’ve done a good job of convincing you that you are evil.
assimilate, intermarry, convert, idolize, but god forbid no–don’t keep your culture. don’t be who you’ve been for 5,000 years, because the loony down the block with the gun’s a xenophobe and we wouldn’t want to provoke him.
do you think the tibetans should all give up tibet and become communists because they’re ethnic nationalists and that’s unjust?
oh, and to reiterate: israel’s annual murder rate is approximately 117 per year. new york city’s alone is 4 times that.
can you name a single country that doesn’t have an ethnic majority?
I think the relevant question is “can you name a single country that doesn’t have an ethnic majority with more rights than its ethnic minorities”, and any truly democratic country fits that description. America, Canada, Western Europe all have white/european majorities but white people don’t have more rights than others.
In Israel, Jews have more rights than Christians or Muslims.
i’m sorry. i’d like to modify my statement to be EUROPEAN communist nations.
But is the operative word there european, or communist ? Eastern Europeans have a tendency towards anti-semitism whether their governments are right wing or left wing. I don’t think you’ve shown that left-wing governments are inherently anti-semitic.
you’d actually be very wrong about that. there are large jewish populations in latin america and east asia.
There are Jewish populations in Latin America and East Asia but relatively speaking they’re not large. There are millions in New York and Israel and only drips and drops elsewhere. Check out Cuba some time and see the statues of Jewish Cuban revolutionary heroes.
that’s not what i’m saying at all and i really don’t appreciate having my words twisted around like that. it’s underhanded.
Is it twisting your words? That was not my intention. It seemed like a logical progression to me.
to be self-hating is to believe you should lie down and let the world kill you off “in the name of justice” because they’ve done a good job of convincing you that you are evil.
Who is doing that ? I for example am an American Jew who doesn’t beleive in Jewish Nationalism. I feel that I belong in America, that the USA is my homeland. How exactly am I, (or my millions of fellow Jews here in America) letting people run over me?
assimilate, intermarry, convert, idolize, but god forbid no–don’t keep your culture. don’t be who you’ve been for 5,000 years, because the loony down the block with the gun’s a xenophobe and we wouldn’t want to provoke him.
Where does this come from? I never suggested people should run away from Judaism. I am just questioning whether the political movement which is Zionism is helpful to the Jews on the whole. You seem to be speaking of Jewish religion and culture which is a separate issue.
do you think the tibetans should all give up tibet and become communists because they’re ethnic nationalists and that’s unjust?
That’s not really an comparable situation, IMO. I don’t think Tibetans are ethnic nationalists. If they were, they would have laws that said ethnic Tibetans would have more rights than ethnic Chinese Tibetan citizens. But that’s not the situation. The situation in Tibet is that China has crossed an internationally recognized border. It’s not that different from the border disputes China has had with India, which is also not an ethnic nationalist dispute.
This is ethnic nationalism: Sharon endorses ‘Jews only’ towns
finally, I’d like to link to a couple of interesting essays on Zionism:
Zionism doesn’t define Jews – it divides us
Reflections on Zionism From a Dissident Jew
peace
all of your argument is based on the following prediliction: that “In Israel, Jews have more rights than Christians or Muslims.”
and that is not true. they all have equal protection under the law and are entitled to all the same rights and priveledges except one: only jews can get automatic citizenship.
period. there are no laws on the books that are skewed against non-jews.
…though i will add that the government can be unjust and corrupt in enforcing the law. that should change.
mo1 is a tad wrong about the rights of Jews in Israel… and, considering the importance of who IS a citizen in a Republic (i.e. who gets to vote) and its direct link to the Sovereignity of a Republic means that instant citizenship to one religion does, in fact, make Israel a Parliamentary Theocratic Republic. Not to mention the special treatment certain Orthodox receive in being able to avoid military service, mandatory for all others (including the Quakers, who often get out of military service in America).
It is very hard to separate the actions of the Sharon government, which Israel recently endorsed over the dovish Mitznah-Labor position, from Israel itself.
Bush, the most pro-Israel President in U.S. History, has also seen the most violence. Bush has already lost the election, and that is why they are running Clark, a GOP stalking horse.
all of your argument is based on the following prediliction: that “In Israel, Jews have more rights than Christians or Muslims.” and that is not true.
Yes, in fact it is true that non-Jews do not have the same rights as Jews in Israel, on a number of levels beyond immigration. Here are some basic examples:
1) Rights to state benefits in Israel are determined based in part on military service, and Israeli Arabs can not serve in the military. Therefore they are not eligible for the same benefits as Jews who do serve, or who are exempted for yeshiva study.
2) The de facto reality is that non-Jews do not have access to the land in the same way Jews do. Much of the land in Israel is held by the Jewish National Fund to be the property of the Jewish people in perpetuity. On their website, JNF says “As the caretaker of the land of Israel on behalf of its owners–Jewish people everywhere…” Notice, it’s not held for the Israeli people, but the Jewish people. Hence you get situations where Israeli Arabs are refused the use of land, yet you or I can get a piece of the land just by virtue of being Jewish, even though we are not from that part of the world.
I’m not sure if you looked at the article about Sharon endorsing the Jews-only law which was proposed to get around the Supreme Court ban on the practice of banning Israeli Arabs from using/renting JNF land or not but here is the gist:
JERUSALEM — Touching off a divisive national debate, the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has endorsed a proposed law that allows Jews to bar Israeli Arab citizens from buying homes in many communities.
The attempt to legalize “Jews-only” towns was swiftly criticized by many Israeli politicians and human rights groups, who said it was a discriminatory and racist proposal. Supporters praised the law for protecting what they called the essence of Zionism.
The debate goes to the heart of Israel’s existential contradiction: How can it be both a Jewish state and a democratic state?”
3) “The 1989 Israel High Court decision that any political party advocating full equality between Arab and Jew can be barred from fielding candidates in an election…[means] that the Israeli state is the state of the Jews…not their [the Arabs’] state.” Professor Norman Finkelstein, “Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.”
If France suddenly declared “France is for the French Christians and the land will be held by the government exclusively for the French Christian people in perpetuity. Jews, Arabs, North Africans cannot immigrate like those of French Christian descent, cannot serve in the French Army and will not get the same benefits as people of French Christian ethnicity. Anyone who advocates full equality between French Christians and non-French can be banned from running for Parliament” wouldn’t you be screaming “anti-semitism” or “racist xenophobia” ? I would.
1) “Israeli Arabs, with few exceptions, are not obliged to serve, though they may volunteer.” ie., Israeli Arabs are not subject to forced conscription.
2) the JNF is an NGO. beyond that, sharon is a douche. this has been established.
3) Norman Finkelstein is a revisionist and virulently anti-Israel. I’ve read his book and the more I read from other sources the more I come to realize how much he distorts the facts to support his agenda.
Perhaps non-Jewish citizens are not treated especially well, but neither are Jewish citizens of lower classes. Just as anywhere else in the world, classism pervades. The wealthier populace is always better cared for. It’s a currently inescapable world condition.
Further, Jordan, right next door to Israel, forbids the sale of any land to Jews whatsoever. I don’t hear you complaining about that.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_israel_land.php
here’s another israel/arab parallel you probably aren’t familiar with:
when the palestinians fled (note, they were not forced to leave) israel in 1948, the arabs expelled all their jews… roughly the same number of palestinians who left:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/10/1652860.php
http://info.jpost.com/C003/Supplements/Refugees/12-13.html
http://www.jcrc.org/israel/101/Israel101-10.pdf
those people lost their homes and property and have no right of return. but no one ever talks about that…
the JNF is an NGO
It’s quasi-governmental – the government administers the JNF land, and the government has adopted its bigoted policies as official: From JNF’s history page: “In 1960, Israel’s Knesset adopted a Basic Land Law based on JNF’s principle of national land, which stated that land owned by the Jewish People cannot be sold, but only leased for periods of 49 years at a time.”
The page you linked to at PalestineFacts.org says: “Of the total land in Israel in 1997, the Israel Government Press Office statistics say 79.5% is owned by the government, 14% is privately owned by the JNF, and the rest, around 6.5%, is evenly divided between private Arab and Jewish owners. Thus, the ILA administers 93.5% of the land in Israel.”
Therefore over 90% of the land is held by the government under the basic land law.
Yes, the Israeli Supreme Court in March 2000 that said Arab citizens are entitled to use state-owned land. However in practice they are not entitled. The Kaadanan family who won that case still hasn’t been allowed to move into the village of Katzir. Still the fact remains, not only Ariel Sharon, but also seventeen cabinet ministers voted for the bill legitimizing Jews-only towns.
Norman Finkelstein is a revisionist and virulently anti-Israel. I’ve read his book and the more I read from other sources the more I come to realize how much he distorts the facts to support his agenda.
So are you saying there was no “1989 Israel High Court decision that any political party advocating full equality between Arab and Jew can be barred from fielding candidates in an election” ? Or are you using an ad hominem against Finkelstein to avoid the issue entirely?
Further, Jordan, right next door to Israel, forbids the sale of any land to Jews whatsoever. I don’t hear you complaining about that.
Well perhaps that’s because we were talking about Israel. Why would someone randomly talk about what Jordan does when discussing Israel unless to change the subject?
If what you say about Jordan is true, then that is equally wrong, even if it was backlash against what the Zionists did.
I don’t approve of theocracies or of bigotry, wherever they may exist. However as an American and a Jew I think my first responsibility is to make sure my own house is in order before I go criticizing Jordan.
when the palestinians fled (note, they were not forced to leave) israel in 1948
Well some fled after the massacres at Deir Yassin and elsewhere, which is only reasonable as they were non-combatants. But many people were forcibly evicted and their villages completely destroyed so they would not return.
“That Ben-Gurion’s ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose…most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants…even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence.” Israeli author, Simha Flapan, “The Birth of Israel.”
those people lost their homes and property and have no right of return. but no one ever talks about that
I think everyone should have the right to live where they want. It sucks that the 1948 war led to other countries expelling their Jews (even if the Zionists did want that anyway because it made Israel stronger). Clearly there is no possible excuse for ethnic cleansing on any side and reparations should be paid to any and all victims IMO. However, does the fact that ethnic cleansing or expulsions happened in Jordan excuse what happened in 1948 in Palestine? No, it doesn’t.
“Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880’s…when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it.” Don Peretz, “The Arab-Israeli Dispute.”
“[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere…In the Holy Land…they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the ‘rightful’ possession of the ‘Jewish people’ to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”
p.s. any chance you would like to address the France example I used?
Yes, the Israeli Supreme Court in March 2000 that said Arab citizens are entitled to use state-owned land. However in practice they are not entitled. The Kaadanan family who won that case still hasn’t been allowed to move into the village of Katzir. Still the fact remains, not only Ariel Sharon, but also seventeen cabinet ministers voted for the bill legitimizing Jews-only towns.
well, i would most certainly agree that that is wrong and should be addressed.
So are you saying there was no “1989 Israel High Court decision that any political party advocating full equality between Arab and Jew can be barred from fielding candidates in an election” ? Or are you using an ad hominem against Finkelstein to avoid the issue entirely?
i’m actually waiting on someone to get back to me to confirm the factuality of finkelstein’s statement. when i have confirmation or substantiated denial, i will respond to it.
I don’t approve of theocracies or of bigotry, wherever they may exist. However as an American and a Jew I think my first responsibility is to make sure my own house is in order before I go criticizing Jordan.
the point i’m trying to make is that no one considers these other houses “disordered.” israel’s disordered, and everyone else’s shit smells like roses. compare and contrast how many u.n. resolutions have been drafted against israel as opposed to in favor of. then look who heads the u.n. human rights, disarmament, and security councils… the world thinks turns a blind eye to arab injustice. but the injustices israel misguidedly perpetuates in its national interests are the biggest ballyhoo of the 21st century thus far.
Well some fled after the massacres at Deir Yassin and elsewhere, which is only reasonable as they were non-combatants. But many people were forcibly evicted and their villages completely destroyed so they would not return.
BULLSHIT. revisionist new historian BULLSHIT.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#a
“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.” — From the memoirs of Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49
Deir Yassin was one isolated incident and no other attacks of that nature took place during the entire 1948 war.
“That Ben-Gurion’s ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose…most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants…even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence.” Israeli author, Simha Flapan, “The Birth of Israel.”
that ben gurion was a member of a radical extremist organization that in no way represented the interests of all of zionism nor palestine’s jewish population i suppose is irrelvant to you as well?
yassir arafat’s intention is to push the jews into the sea. does that mean that every palestinian shares his sentiments?
However, does the fact that ethnic cleansing or expulsions happened in Jordan excuse what happened in 1948 in Palestine? No, it doesn’t.
it doesn’t excuse it–it makes the scales even. israel should not be singled out for criticism for actions that all of her neighbors partook in and have do not endure similar criticism for. thus again, i reiterate that the rest of the world can do whatever the fuck it wants, but israel– oh no… they’re held to a higher moral standard than every other country on earth.
“they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the ‘rightful’ possession of the ‘Jewish people’ to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants.”
be that as it may, that does not eschew the need for a jewish national homeland.
to address the french analogy — if french christians were being pushed into ovens and accused of a global conspiracy, subject to 2,000 years of pogroms, and basically loathed and detested in every country they resided in…i would understand, because my people had been there too.
the point i’m trying to make is that no one considers these other houses “disordered.”
Is that so? I read reports on human rights atrocities in the Arab world on Amnesty and HRC’s sites all the time
the world thinks turns a blind eye to arab injustice. but the injustices israel misguidedly perpetuates in its national interests are the biggest ballyhoo of the 21st century thus far.
When Israelis do good things, they get Nobel prizes. Just ask Shimon Peres. If Israel wants some UN resolutions praising it, then maybe it should do some praise-worthy things? The last great diplomatic thing Israel did was in 1979.
BULLSHIT. revisionist new historian BULLSHIT. [re: Palestinians being forced to leave in 1948]
“During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim…[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha… The village was destroyed that night… Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April… Abu Zureiq was completely demolished… Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.
“The fact that the Arabs fled in terror, because of real fear of a repetition of the 1948 Zionist massacres, is no reason for denying them their homes, fields and livelihoods. Civilians caught in an area of military activity generally panic. But they have always been able to return to their homes when the danger subsides. Military conquest does not abolish private rights to property; nor does it entitle the victor to confiscate the homes, property and personal belongings of the noncombatant civilian population. The seizure of Arab property by the Israelis was an outrage.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”
“The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put.” Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”
that ben gurion was a member of a radical extremist organization that in no way represented the interests of all of zionism nor palestine’s jewish population i suppose is irrelvant to you as well?
Dude! Ben Gurion was the PM in 1948. He was the PM again a second time from 1953-63! He is considered Israel’s founding father. He’s not just some random kook
If he was such an extremist that didn’t represent anyone, why did the country name its airport after him as well as universities ?
Come on, that’s weak
“Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion, quoted in “The Jewish Paradox” by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress.
yassir arafat’s intention is to push the jews into the sea. does that mean that every palestinian shares his sentiments?
Oh come on now, that’s weak too. Arafat is much more interested in peace than Sharon’s gang. Recently Gush Shalom’s Uri Avnery visited Arafat and gave him a pin with the Gush Shalom logo – crossed flags of Israel and Palestine, which Arafat promptly pinned to his lapel. Do you think Sharon would do that ? Be realistic. Arafat has agreed to the 1967 line over and over, even though that in itself is a huge concession – since the last legal and internationally recognized border Israel had was the 1948 border.
It’s Israel’s leadership which refuses to accept this compromise.
be that as it may, that does not eschew the need for a jewish national homeland.
“There is clearly no need to justify the Zionist dream, the desire for relief from Jewish suffering…The trouble with Zionism starts when it lands, so to speak, in Palestine. What has to be justified is the injustice to the Palestinians caused by Zionism, the dispossession and victimization of a whole people. There is clearly a wrong here, a wrong which creates the need for justification”
to address the french analogy — if french christians were being pushed into ovens and accused of a global conspiracy, subject to 2,000 years of pogroms, and basically loathed and detested in every country they resided in…i would understand, because my people had been there too.
The Palestinians did not put Jews into ghettos and force them to wear yellow stars. They did not plan holocausts. But they had one fault. They were weak and defenseless in the face of real military might, so they were the ideal victims for an abstract revenge.
The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East
benny morris is also one of the revisionist “new historians” … he’s in the same class as finkelstein. just cuz he writes something that can be used as ammunition in an argument doesn’t make it so.
“The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put.” Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”
READ THIS:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#e
tell me, what’s more convincing, a lack of articles in the bbc’s archive, or the presence of several articles in the jewish agency’s archives and admissions of guilt from several arab leaders in their own memoirs?
Oh come on now, that’s weak too. Arafat is much more interested in peace than Sharon’s gang. Recently Gush Shalom’s Uri Avnery visited Arafat and gave him a pin with the Gush Shalom logo – crossed flags of Israel and Palestine, which Arafat promptly pinned to his lapel. Do you think Sharon would do that ? Be realistic. Arafat has agreed to the 1967 line over and over, even though that in itself is a huge concession – since the last legal and internationally recognized border Israel had was the 1948 border.
It’s Israel’s leadership which refuses to accept this compromise.
they definitely have not accepted the 1967 borders over and over. read the plo charter.
…
The Palestinians did not put Jews into ghettos and force them to wear yellow stars. They did not plan holocausts. But they had one fault. They were weak and defenseless in the face of real military might, so they were the ideal victims for an abstract revenge.
Mr. Arafat’s mentor, Haj Amin Al Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, indoctrinated him with hatred toward Israel. The grand mufti led Palestinian Arabs from 1920 until Mr. Arafat succeeded him in 1967. The mufti encouraged Arab terrorism against Jewish immigrants to Palestine between the two world wars and, like Mr. Arafat today, the mufti piously disclaimed any responsibility for terrorist acts committed by his followers.
In 1929 and 1936, the mufti personally led large-scale riots against Jewish settlers. During World War II, the mufti journeyed to Nazi Germany where he personally begged Adolph Hitler to invade British-ruled Palestine and rid it of Jews. The mufti received sympathy, but no help, from Hitler. Nevertheless, he broadcast radio tirades approving Hitler’s “final solution” of the Jewish problem.
The mufti barely escaped trial for treason by fleeing to Egypt in 1946. There he made young Yasser Arafat, then living in Cairo, his protégé. The mufti secretly imported a former Nazi commando officer into Egypt to teach Mr. Arafat and other teenage recruits the fine points of guerrilla warfare. Mr. Arafat learned his lessons well – the mufti was so proud of him he even pretended the two of them were blood relations. (Washington Times, Aug. 9, 2002)
also read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1423589.stm
the palestinian werederhsip was collaborating with the nazis to exterminate the jewish population of palestine, pre-1948. as demonstrated by that bbc report tho, the people were less than interested. and why would they be? suddenly they had electricity, running water, an economic boom, and -gasp- jobs! the palestinian leadership has been instigating this mess for years.
that should say leadership*