Avraham Burg and Shamirpower – meant to be?
So in my precious moments under a shady tree before lunch today at the ‘Tute, I decided to catch up on last week’s New Yorker. I was hoping to avoid any Jewish topics since there’s an over saturation of that here. With my luck, I opened to a piece about Israel. However, as I glanced forward in the article it turned out to primarily be about none other than Avraham Burg, a former Knesset speaker. It traces various events in his life including statements he has made, as well as specific references to his recent book “Defeating Hitler – ìðöç à ú äèìø” and the recent Ha’aretz interview about the book. (You can also read Forward Editor’s J.J. Goldberg’s article with reflections and interview).
In any case, while this all may be old news to some people, I felt the need to bring everyone’s attention to it. First, I’ve appreciated much of Burg’s writing over the years, particularly in Ha’aretz. Yay for people who don’t know if they are post or progressive or anti Zionist – why should we be forced to label ourselves? Second, I am amazed at his ability to piss off people at all ends of the spectrum, and even those not on it. This is a man who does not feel a single pang of guilt for speaking his mind while in a position of power. Third, I love it when the New Yorker speaks to me exactly where I am in my life. How does it know to do that?
Most importantly, I have to point out that I am really into how much he and I have in common:
Burg is a vegetarian, and fit; he has taken up marathon running. He is nearly bald, and wears a small knit yarmulke. Normally, this is the yarmulke of the modern Orthodox, though Burg seemed eager to emphasize his disaffection from all things Orthodox; he told me of his affinity for B’nai Jeshurun, a synagogue on New York’s Upper West Side where some of the rabbis are women and the sermons are as likely to quote Martin Luther King as Maimonides. “My alliance with the people at B’nai Jeshurun,” he said, “is much more immediate and intensive and important for me than my alliance with my nephew or my cousin, who lives two kilometres away in the West Bank, a fundamentalist settler.”
…
“I went on a very long walk on the Appalachian Trail. I went for five weeks and crossed half the state of Connecticut, the whole state of New York, and half the state of New Jersey. I saw maybe twelve people, none of them Jewish—for the first time in my life. I did a lot of thinking, and I realized that I had to change the pace of my life.”
Yes folks – Avraham and I are both liberal religious Jews who care about women rabbis and music in services. We are both physically active vegetarians who like to hike on the Appalachain trail in the New York/Connecticut region. Meant to be? You be the judge.
I heart Avraham Burg!
why is it that you say “yay” for anyone who (though they won’t label themselves) but are anything but Zionist?
If you want to see how the media is anti Israeli, first read the interview of Burg in Haaretz (where his own words paint Burg as a fascistic traitor to the Jewish people), and then read the New Yorker article, which paints this little creep as a deep thinker. I my words overblown? Read the two articles and decide for yourself.
This is one book I’m looking forward to reading, and moreover looking forward to see printed in French- Whenever my wife asks me what does it mean to me to be Jewish, words always fail me and it’s truly frustrating even though I know this question will never have one simple answer- and will probably never have any kind of fixed answer. Still, when I read the above mentioned Ha’aretz article I felt straight away that his words are exactly what I’ve been looking for to express my ideas and notions of my very own Jewish identity. Definitely meant to be…
incorrect– you forgot to mention the Hebrew version of the interview, which was not *shortened*, and I remember it giving a somewhat kinder impression.
Burg appealed to me too – until I got to the end of the article in Haaretz which reminded me that he has a big fat part in big fat shady deals with big fat criminals. I wish I could like him more than I do – he says the right things, but he associates with the wrong people.
incorrect – what utter rubbish.
1. David Remnick can hardly be described as “anti-Israel,” unless you’re one of those persons who tries to maintain that Bill Clinton, Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres etc are all “anti-Israel.”
2. How does Burg paint himself as a “fascistic traitor?” Your use of this childish terminology where it certainly does not fit tells us more about you and your state of mind than it correctly labels Burg.
3. You may not agree with him. You may find his views to be awful. But your ad hominem attacks won’t convince anyone. Try to find a criticism of substance that goes beyond hurling insults.
DavidG, you are right, I wasn’t trying to convince anyone, I had a visceral reaction of instant contempt for Burg when I read his actual words in the Haaretz article a few months ago; and when I read the New York article I couldn’t believe what a toned down more reasonable sounding version of the man was presented. That’s why I suggested reading BOTH articles – I suppose if I tried I could make David Duke sound moderate by a careful selection of his writings – but that would mean I had perpetrated a whitewash of the man – I think that’s what New York did here for Burg – but again, read both articles yourself, tell me whether Burg in his own words isn’t vile v. the nice though left version presented in the New York article.
One of the things pointed out in the New Yorker and elsewhere is that the Ha’aretz interview was conducted by a very hostile opponent also personally offended by Burg’s views and interested in presenting them in an unpleasant light. It has also been pointed out in many places that the Ha’aretz interview is a heavily edited version. (I think the full interview was in the hebrew version).
So if anything, the Ha’aratz interview was a hit piece, conducted by a hostile force with a huge axe to grind, whereas the New Yorker was the more objective, conducted by a middle-of-the-road friend of Israel.
And Avraham Burg is certainly not David Duke. In fact I like Avraham Burg. If he would only start speaking Ashkenazi hebrew instead of the foul Canaanite version to which we’re constantly subjected these days, I would even love him.
I have met dude on numerous occassions and he has always been cordial, friendly and easy to work with.
but his politics are rather odious. Israel is so “beneath” him at this point. the unsophisticated people/politicians of the state of Israel are a disappointment, an embarassment to him. but rather than really try to reform things, he decides to go into business. and shady business at that. public servant? not so much. opportunist seems a better fit.
but hey he’s a vegetarian, and “fit”! and he frequents liberal NY shuls. in other words, he’s perfect for English-language Jewish blogs. but he has little in common with Israelis (and from the sound of it, he’s rather proud of this fact).
Well I, for one, feel for the guy.
He grew up the son of a frum Zionist, a black-yarmulke-wearing political leader, who was middle-of-the-road politically (Left by today’s standards, and would have been labelled a traitor by the current leaders of the National-Religious movement). The party of which his father was leader was all about building bridges between religious and non-religious, and bringing nice, warm, friendly traditional Judaism and Torah education to the whole country. It wasn’t about hate, violence, racism, insane and heretical messianism, every last inch of the Land and the rest of the toxic brew stirred up by the settler rabbis who lead the extreme Right-Wing National Religious Party now.
His whole world collapsed, and has been replaced by something so hideous and twisted that what thinking person wouldn’t wake up one day and want to get a French passport?
“replaced by something so hideous and twisted that what thinking person wouldn’t wake up one day and want to get a French passport”
Ah, those Jews, so hideous, so perfidious, I have an idea, let’s round them up and put them in concentration camps, and then……..
Your reply is precisely an example of that twisted, manipulative and dishonest thinking. Who said anything about Jews? Avraham Burg is a Jew, presumably davidg and you are both Jews.
How do you have the nerve to try to imply some sort or anti-Semitic aspect to any of this? And then to try to invoke the Holocaust?
Could you be any more disgusting?
Stephanie, I’m sure you’re a nice person, but before you shut your mind down take a look at Davidg’s post above mine – I am quoting Davidg explaining Burg’s actions – Davidg said of Israel: “replaced by something so hideous and twisted that what thinking person wouldn’t wake up one day and want to get a French passport—
You just might want to direct your ire towards Davidg, who made those rather amazing comments.
I think Incorrect’s logic in the juxtaposition has a true insight in it–complementing DavidG’s justified indignation.
To the degree that the Judaism in the bible, that which many religious people call “authentic Judaism” holds priorities which are utterly contemptible by modern standards, it must be rejected.
Many Jews consider this moral outrage the hated Anti-Semitism of the Nazis, which they equate with all anti-jewish sentiment– not realizing that Hating Judaism’s evils is not the same as blaming Jews for it. This is how Incorrect can call a Jew, who would only benefit financially and politically from being a regular Zionist (of some acceptable variety), that rejects the Jewish hand that feeds him on any basis, moral, spiritual or whatever, a Nazi, along with anyone who sympathizes with his sentiments.
Of course, on this basis Jeremiah and alot of other prophets are huge Nazis. And so am I, and anyone who values the Torah of “Love your Neighbor as Yourself” over the Torah of “Defend Israel.”
First Yoseph, I have called no one a Nazi. What I have said is that to use the vile words Davidg used is to deligitimize and stigmatize Israel and Israels to the extent that he has begun the thought process that leads the world to support the death of the Jews of Israel – first we call them “hideous and twisted”, then we boycott them, then we support the Palestinean terrorists as justified freedom fighters, then we cut off arms to Israel, then sit back to watch Israelis be descimated, then because the Jews of the world supported Israel we round them up and get rid of them…….
And you Yoseph are dangerously approaching Davig territory: “To the degree that the Judaism in the bible… holds priorities which are utterly contemptible by modern standards, it must be rejected”. “Utterly contemptible”? Perhaps wrong, perhaps ill thought out, perhaps “makes no sense”, perhaps unlivable – but UTTERLY CONTEMPTIBLE? Not Yoseph, uterly contempible is reserved
for Muslim leaders who encourage their children to become suicide bombers, for Arafat who could have had his state but instead preferred to attempt to kil more Jews, for Noam Chomsky who has academically done his best to destroy the state of Israel – not for people who have a set of values that differ from yours. So beware your choice of words, Yoseph, the results may be the death of the Jews you love.
Is it so difficult to understand that calling Israelis/Israel/Jews “utterly contemptible”, “hideous and twisted” and the like, when the words come from Jews, allows those who hate us to justify to the vast majority of the world that doesn’t care that much about Jews and the middle east the murder of Jews and the destruction of Israel?
Incorrect – what in Heaven’s name are you talking about??!?!?!?
Apparently during Shabbos yesterday, I was also plotting the death of the Jews of Israel, the destruction of Israel, supporting boycotts of Israel and various other nefarious acts.
Incorrect, in the meantime, WAS busy misreading and misinterpreting, and showing the world that he really is an idiot.
I have not decribed Israel or the Jews as anything whatsoever. And I don’t agree with Yoseph Leib’s comments about “Judaism’s evils.” The evils are not those of Judaism, they are those of a small group of politically motivated extremists who have severely warped a stream in Judaism, to such a dangerous degree that it has become Golden Calf and violent fascism combined. Unfortunately, mainstream Orthodoxy is unwilling to speak out, or else harbors secret sympathies. (I suspect it’s primarily the former, in much the same way as Orthodoxy has done nothing about the Christian-esque Messianic heresy in Chassidic garb that continues to cohabit with the Jewish community worldwide).
Can Incorrect not read what I wrote? Apparently not very well. Or maybe he knows nothing about the National Religious Party, despite his claims to have read about Avraham Burg and his willingness to attack others and imply they are Nazi sympathizers of enablers in a discussion of its ideology.
Moreover, he is also one of those contemptible indiduals who are ready to cheapen the memory of the Holocaust to attack Jews who don’t share his views. In this particular case, it’s impossible to follow the guidance of the man whose face I see below…
I have read again what I posted.
Only someone deliberately twisting and manipulating what I wrote – and then specifically misquoting me – could be saying the things Incorrect is saying. What a piece of work. You should be ashamed of yourself.
davidg, since I am always willing to lend the benefit of the doubt, I will take you at your word that you were not referring to Israel when you said: “His whole world collapsed, and has been replaced by something so hideous and twisted that what thinking person wouldn’t wake up one day and want to get a French passport?” But if you weren’t referring to Israel in general, then why would a citizen of Israel want to leave because one political party had views you hate?
Be that as it may, again, I’ll accept that you weren’t referring to Israel in general. I would advise that when attacking a group with such vehemence, you make it very clear just who you are attacking – and I might further advise that those are your brethren in any case, with the same soul and history as you, and you might not want to use the words you did when you have a disagreement with them – those are the words one would use on a bitter enemy who is trying to kill you.
And btw, davidg, how in the world could I misquote you when I pulled the quote directly from you post? Did I replace words? Leave out words? I suggest you reread your posts again.
The benefit of the doubt? You really have some chutzpah. There is no doubt, only your own stupidity, rush to judgement and haste to invoke the Holocaust staring you in the face.
Perhaps better than “misquote,” I should have called it a dishonest deliberate quote out of context with your own manipulative fantasy context added. How about that?
As for you advice, the hateful heretical fanatics of the Israeli Far Right and their violent settler followers are not my brethren. And their hypocritical attempts to lay claim to Ahavat Yisrael are belied by the fact that they alone murder other Jews to further their political aims. My father taught me there’s only one language fascists understand. He was right, and it applies to Jewish fascists too.
Two words: anger management.
Hey buddy, I’m not the one talking about concentration camps cos’ I don’t like what you’ve said about an Israeli political party.
“hateful heretical fanatics”, “violent settler followers”, “they alone murder other Jews”, “Jewish fascists”,”Golden Calf and violent fascism combined”, “hate, violence, racism, insane and heretical messianism, every last inch of the Land and the rest of the toxic brew stirred up by the settler rabbis”, “hideous and twisted”. Need I quote further?
But which of those quotes isn’t the honest truth, incorrect?
Amit/Davidg, once you’ve said that there’s nothing more to say, except perhaps that you and I have entirely different ideas of what being a Jew means, and what the responsibilities of being a Jew require. Luckily for you, those who hold my position (which btw is not that of the “maximus” settlers) can’t cut you off from the concern we hold for all Jews.
Here’s one of your “brethren” incorrect – he also likes to call other Jews Nazis. I think all my comments apply to him quite accurately.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3435555,00.html
I would cut off those who call other Jews Nazis, and whose sick ideology is to murder or advocate the death of other Jews in the furtherance of their political aims. You seem to be an apologist for these people. They will bring disaster upon Israel and the entire Jewish People.
As for “what the responsibilities of being a Jew require” – apparently you are one of those who like to tell others what they should do and how they should live their lives. Unfortunately that takes you down a completely dead end.
What about keeping Shabbos? The responsibilities of being a Jew don’t get any more clear than that. Yet you don’t do that. Oh – it’s up to each individual? I thought so. So don’t try lecture others about how they should abide by your political concepts of Jewishness.