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Beyond Chutzpah indeed

The private little war between Alan Dershowitz and Norman Finkelstein has been covered here in the past, and I’ve just finished reading (and briefly reviewing) Finkelstein’s latest book, in which he takes Dershowitz apart.
I’m not averse to the argument Finkelstein makes, and I applaud his willingness to state it so frankly and take the time to support it with factual references. Dershowitz’s attempt to keep the book from being published is both crass and considerably hypocritical.
The problem I have with Finkelstein’s approach, and I raise this in my review, is the need to resort to hyperbolic pejoratives. I don’t agree with everything that comes out of the mouths of conservative Jewish voices, or of many pro-Israel groups that choose to gloss over the harsher side of the Israeli reality. But having worked alongside and across the table with many of them, from the high profile down to the grassroots, it’s hard for me to accept that they are willfully and consciously attempting to defraud the public or abandon what they truly believe to be an upright moral position.
People can be wrong without being sinister. Finkelstein, nevertheless, wastes little time into resorting to lambasting his opponents as lacking “ordinary moral values.” The right-wing spends too much time making liberal into a dirty word. We needn’t get in the muck with them, especially within the tribe. The more polarized we make ourselves, the worse we’ll be on issues far beyond Israel.

20 thoughts on “Beyond Chutzpah indeed

  1. Actually, the problem that I have with Norman Finkelstein is that he hates Jews! You shouldn’t give him or Chomsky the time of day.

  2. “The right-wing spends too much time making liberal into a dirty word.”
    Dershowitz is “right wing” and thinks “liberal ” is a dirty word? I won’t begin to try and understand Finklestein’s peculiar pathological condition, but the problem with you and many other “progressives” is your own very limited conception of liberalism.

  3. Finkelstein is a Kapo he would have loaded the boxcars full of Jews Norman sold his sould to the amalek a long time ago

  4. City college of Manhatten is having this crazy book sale. All hardbacks are a 1.50 and all paperbacks a buck. There are getting rid of a ton of jewish history books and some books only written in Hebrew ( since I don’t read hebrew…yet, I don’t know what they are) and prayer books, and even some Gemara, all for like a dollar. I got this really really cool old Zionist book about Judea Jews fighting in Africa. Really old copy, and neat old pictures. I would buy all of the books but I’m a broke ass student, plus carrying them would be a pain. I called two shuls to see if they wanted to come buy them, but no one seemed interested ( which sorta broke my heart), seeing as one of the shuls, was pretty close to the school. The sale is only on for today, and the books won’t be available till the spring sale. If anyone has free time, a car, or wants to buy some neat looking Jewish books real cheap, city college has them, 138th and convent. Take the one or nine ( does the nine exist anymore) to 137 street. Or the AEDC ( double check that) to 145. Hope someone buys a book.

  5. Also, if someone actually goes and buys a book, cause you post and tell me. It would make me feel so much better, I don’t know why, but I would just hate to see those books go into a dark dank storage room.

  6. I fucking hate Norman Finkelstein. But Dershowitz has really pissed me off for giving Finkelstein the ammunition to embarass us all (relax, I’m talkin about my gang of Brownshirts, not the post-denominational anarchist bundists *snicker*). Dershowitz, or more likely, Dershowitz’s ghost writer/grad student assistant wrote a pretty badly researched book. It was based on Joan Peters book – anyone with half a brain can see that. What was wrong was they tried to fob off Peters’ research as their own. What’s embarassing is that it’s the kind of thing you’d expect a desperate undergrad to do – not someone with access to well paid editors and researchers, all of whom fucked up in the most embarassing way possible. Whatever. I’m over Dershowitz. He should focus on generating some Jewish grandchildren for himself rather than pushing his “everyone should be like me” agenda.
    Oh and Norman Finkelstein is still lower than smegma. And Allan is still an entertaining speaker. Tribe’s a better prof though.

  7. THIS! This is the problem you have with norman finkelstein? Is this the same Norman Finkelstein who compares the ADL to the KKK, the same Norman Finkelstein who would have no problem at all if israel was wiped off the map (just cuz he says he supports the 2 state solution doesn’t mean he supports israel’s right exist), the same Norman Finkelstein whos only a step away from defending holocaust deniers a’la Noam Chomsky (admo”r, of course)? Stop beating around the bush JewSchool, the idea of Jews having a state of their own, whatever the context, just doesn’t sit well with Finkelstein, its that simple.

  8. “the same Norman Finkelstein whos only a step away from defending holocaust deniers a’la Noam Chomsky (admo”r, of course)?”
    Look, if your argument is that Norman Finkelstein gives you bad vibes, just say so. I can’t stand his personality or his tendency, as Bradford pointed out, to “resort to hyperbolic pejoratives”. But you’re not really advancing your own argument by yourself resorting to hyperbole, particularly given that the hyperbole here involves the very serious charge of Holocaust denial. If you’re going to accuse someone of something so weighty you back it up. The fact that others have made the charge–with equal dirth of facts, as far as I have seen–is no defense.

  9. I haven’t read the book so I can’t comment on it. I did have the misfortune of listening to the altercation betweek Finklestien and Dershowitz on “Democracy Now” I haven’t read Peters book either, so I was extremely annoyed that Finklestien didn’t feel the need to debunk Dershowitz’s points for the benefit of the audience. He would just say it came from Peters, and he debunked her before and this was supposed to be a sufficient argument even though most of the listeners hadn’t heard him do this. Also the fact that he used her as a source doesn’t mean he plagerized, so long as he cites it properly in sources cited.
    “The I hate Chomsky” statements in this thread are a waste of server space without any sort of reasoning used.

  10. Dameocrat: That’s the thing, he didn’t cite Peters properly. Accordiong to several of Dershowitz’s citations, the implication was that he did the research himself, when he clearly didn’t. If you care to, you can go to Finkelstein’s web site and read the pont by point expose that may not exactly show plagiarism, but it definitely shows sloppy editing and unethical citation – ie citing works you clearly did not read or go to. As far as Finkelstein’s assertion that he debunked Peters – that’s a load of crap. Professor Finkelstein from Little Bo Peep University couldn’t debunk shit from shinola. But still, Dershowitz and his crappy sub-undergrad paper gave Finkelstein all the ammunition he needed. We remain, SO embarassed. Oy.

  11. ck:
    You’re buying Finkelstein’s argument wholesale. Alan Dershowitz’s book only deals with the history that Peter’s dealt with (pre-1948 Israel/Palestine) in the first two chapters. The rest of the book is about contemporary stuff. The entire book is NOT a fraud. I have heard Finkelstein speak. The man is a hypocrite. Complains that Elie Wiesel takes money for lecturing on the Holocaust yet Finkelstein not only took money from a campus group here (University of Michigan) but he asked for $8 in further donations. Apparently, the only person who can profit from lecturing is Norman Finkelstein.
    He’s been discredited by every serious scholar on the Holocaust, kicked out of universities on the east coast for making up stuff, and is in general, a douchebag. Have your opinions, but it’s intellectually dishonest to call everyone you don’t agree with a fraud.

  12. Jared: Trust me, Finkelstein has been on my radar for a long, long time. I remember seeing him when I was a teenager attending Concordia University a zillion years ago. Invited by a bevvy of Pro-Palestinian student groups, he went on and on about how Zionists were committing genocide and how Israel was an apartheid state – the usual bullshit spewed by 3rd rate anti-Israel aggitators. He made it a point to mention his Jewish birth, ya’ani giving his words more credence and bringing joy to the haters in the audience. Then this old lady got up during the question period and announced that she was a holocaust survivor and that what the Zionists were doing to the Palestinians was worse – yes WORSE than what the Nazis had done to the Jews. Turns out the little old lady was Finkelsteins obviously addle minded mother. What a shit head.
    Having said all that, I went through Finkelsteins detailed claims against Dershowitz on his web site – http://www.normanfinkelstein.c… – and altyhough I disagree with Finkelstein that Joan Peters’ book was a fraud, I do agree with him that Dershowitz committed what ALMOST ammounts to plagiarism and is guilty of, at the very least, deceptive citations – pretending he came up with the information himself from original sources whereas it’s clear he just lifted stuff wholesale from Peters’ book.
    This kind of, at best, sloppy editing would earn you an F if I was grading your paper, and I’m not even an academic (but I do have a couple of degrees so, you know…I have some standards). Maybe muffti, who teaches and is on the verge of getting his PhD wants to weigh in on this one. In any case, the point is that Dershowitz, due to his (at best) sloppiness, gave Finkelstein the ammunition to go off on him. Now not only can he express his idiot opinions on the validity of Peters’ exhaustive research, he can also correctly point to the fact that Dershowitz without a doubt FUCKED UP.
    Dershowitz loses my respect because of this. Our case is in fact a strong one. We do not need to be sloppy in our editing and thus call into question everything else. How friggin embarassing.

  13. Just to clarify, I’m NOT defending Peters’ work. I’ve never read it nor do I intend to read it (its whole premise is wrong to so many people, including myself). I’ve read the comparisons on Finkelstein’s website, and while you do have a point, Finkelstein’s motives for displaying them a dishonest. By plagiarizing, he attempts to insinuate that the sources cited by both are completely made up or fabricated. They may or may not be, but he provides no proof. After hearing him speak, I have realized that is what he does: he makes claims without proof. Until I see the proof of his claims, I’ll remain a skeptic.

  14. I read Peters’ book (heck I own it). It’s extremely compelling. And yes, Finkelstein is going a bit overboard, as the little nutbar is wont to do. I’m not talking about the validity of Peters exhaustively researched work. All I’m saying is that Dershowitz should have been a lot less sloppy. In that respect, and that respect alone, Finkelstein really nailed Dershowitz.

  15. xisnotx:
    You’re quoting Raoul Hilberg from Norman Finkelstein’s website. I’m not even touching that one with a ten foot pole, it stinks so bad. As for Peters, like I said. I haven’t read it for the reasons Yehuda Porath put forth. He makes an interesting point, which seems to be lost on Finkelstein supporters: “[S]he attempts to refute the Arab myths merely by substituting the Jewish myths for them.”
    Name one more besides Raoul Hilberg. On the other side, he’s been referred to as a fraud and a bigot by David Goldhagen, Omer Bertov, Israel Gutman, Hans Mommen, and a host of others.
    William Rubenstein presents his thesis about why The Holocaust Industry’s thesis, that Jews exploit the Holocaust to justify Israel’s actions, is complete bullshit:
    “Nor is there any demonstrable or obvious link between historians who have presented what might be described as the ‘orthodox’ view of the Holocaust as central and unique, and their views on Israel. For instance, two of the historians whom Finkelstein attacks most directly for their views on the Holocaust, Daniel Goldhagen and Deborah Lipstadt, have no expressed views on Israel or Zionism. Conversely, several historians who have dissented from the orthodox view on the alleged inaction of the Allies in rescuing Jews during the Holocaust, such as Yehuda Bauer, Lucy Dawidowicz and Martin Gilbert, are outspoken champions of Israel and Zionism. The two historians who did most to put the view that America ‘abandoned’ the Jews during the Holocaust, Arthur Morse and David Wyman, are not ‘Zionists’ and are, indeed, not Jewish.”
    Finkelstein is so full of shit he’s bursting at the sides.

  16. xisnotx:
    You’re quoting Raoul Hilberg from Norman Finkelstein’s website. I’m not even touching that one with a ten foot pole, it stinks so bad. As for Peters, like I said. I haven’t read it for the reasons Yehuda Porath put forth. He makes an interesting point, which seems to be lost on Finkelstein supporters: “[S]he attempts to refute the Arab myths merely by substituting the Jewish myths for them.”
    Name one more besides Raoul Hilberg. On the other side, he’s been referred to as a fraud and a bigot by David Goldhagen, Omer Bertov, Israel Gutman, Hans Mommen, and a host of others.
    William Rubenstein presents his thesis about why The Holocaust Industry’s thesis, that Jews exploit the Holocaust to justify Israel’s actions, is complete bullshit:
    “Nor is there any demonstrable or obvious link between historians who have presented what might be described as the ‘orthodox’ view of the Holocaust as central and unique, and their views on Israel. For instance, two of the historians whom Finkelstein attacks most directly for their views on the Holocaust, Daniel Goldhagen and Deborah Lipstadt, have no expressed views on Israel or Zionism. Conversely, several historians who have dissented from the orthodox view on the alleged inaction of the Allies in rescuing Jews during the Holocaust, such as Yehuda Bauer, Lucy Dawidowicz and Martin Gilbert, are outspoken champions of Israel and Zionism. The two historians who did most to put the view that America ‘abandoned’ the Jews during the Holocaust, Arthur Morse and David Wyman, are not ‘Zionists’ and are, indeed, not Jewish.”
    Finkelstein is so full of shit he’s bursting at the sides.

  17. “On the other side, he’s been referred to as a fraud and a bigot by David Goldhagen, ”
    I assume you mean Daniel Jonah Goldhagen?
    Here Hilberg (as quoted on Finklestein’s website) seems to be challenging Goldhagen’s creds:
    Q: You once said that quality control is missing in Holocaust studies.
    A: That is correct, in particular, in respect to several of the elite universities. This is the only reason why Goldhagen could obtain a PhD in political science at Harvard. There was nobody on the faculty who could have checked his work.

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