Culture, Identity, Politics

Celebrity Deathmatch: Mobius vs. Ruskay

mobius-vs-ruskayThis month’s meeting of the Men’s Havurah at B’nai Jeshurun on December 19th will feature John Ruskay and Daniel Sieradski in a dialogue between the establishment and anti-establishment voices in the Jewish world today. Where are we? What’s needed? What are the generational divides?
John is the Executive Vice President and CEO of UJA-Federation of New York. Daniel was the founding publisher and editor-in-chief of Jewschool as well as blogs Radical Torah and Orthodox Anarchist.
This program will also include davening, schnappsing and socializing. For men only. For more information contact Naomi Goodhart: [email protected]. Saturday, December 19th, 5 pm – 7 pm, in Frankel Hall at the 88th Street shul. (Facebook event here.)

115 thoughts on “Celebrity Deathmatch: Mobius vs. Ruskay

  1. dlevy, I dunno anything about the sisterhood/brotherhood dynamic at BJ, but I do know that in my experience, men’s groups at synagogues are boring as all hell and don’t do anything interesting ever. So props to BJ Men’s Havurah for thinking this up.

  2. There are certain programs that make sense to do in a single-gender forum. There are certain programs that may not necessarily lend themselves to gender segregation, but cause no harm in a single-gender forum. But there are certain discussions that, when held in a men-only environment, exponentially increase the ick factor.
    Having two white Jewish guys argue over the direction of the Jewish community in a no girls allowed clubhouse (schnapps included!) reeks of many of the things we’ve fought to fix in the organized Jewish community in the last fifty years.

  3. Gotta love the irony that you have to contact a woman for more information.
    As to whether women should or shouldn’t be allowed in, I’m going to remain ambivalent and let the folks at BJ fight it out.

  4. Sorry to be redundant, but I’m offended that a woman is required to field all questions about this program. The ick factor is pretty high.

  5. Having two white Jewish guys argue over the direction of the Jewish community
    What makes these two people any more qualified than the rest of us to sit on a stage and argue over the direction of the Jewish community?
    A self-proclamed “establishment” spokesman versus a self-proclamed “anti-establishment” spokesman?

  6. dlevy, I think you may be distracting from the issues by focusing on me. I’m not the one to bring up gender exclusivity in this discussion. I think it’s hilarious how many openings to tangential debate this post has created. The guardians of Jewschool humanism are forced to defend a sex-segregated event, whose humanist critics disparage Jews with white skin!
    You have to see the twisted irony in all this.
    Quite frankly, I don’t even know where I should come down on this. Do I support a sex-segregated event because I believe that there is a value in men having their space, just as women do, or do I use the humanist argument against everyone involved to demonstrate how humanism is not a panacea of righteousness?
    It’s a complete humanist snowball fight, and everyone is invited!

  7. dlevy, what constitutes the issue here? i thought that this was about promoting an event that someone Jewschool tends to like is co-headlining.
    Not to say that I don’t agree with you (not sure if I do or don’t) and not that I agree with Avigdor (I so rarely do), but you did bring white into it and you also brought gender into it.

  8. “Sorry to be redundant, but I’m offended that a woman is required to field all questions about this program. The ick factor is pretty high.”
    or maybe the job happens to be filled by a woman? can we presume that this person is fielding questions because of her gender or because of her job? If it’s because of her job we can presume that BJ does not discriminate based on gender and she has this job because she is qualified for it. maybe I’m being naive, but I think we’re leveling the cry of sexism a bit too far in this scenario. Is dlevy’s point valid? absolutely. But is it sexist that a woman is answering phones? not if she has the job because of non-gender issues. let’s not get too sensitive.

  9. David A.M. Wilensky writes:
    dlevy, I dunno anything about the sisterhood/brotherhood dynamic at BJ, but I do know that in my experience, men’s groups at synagogues are boring as all hell and don’t do anything interesting ever. So props to BJ Men’s Havurah for thinking this up.
    Another way not to have a boring men’s group is not to have a men’s group. It seems twisted to have a program be men-only for the sole reason that the men’s group is looking for something interesting to do.

  10. Avigdor writes:
    Why do we sex-segregate bathrooms?
    That case is so sui generis in our society that “men’s room” and “women’s room” have unambiguous meanings.

  11. I knew that when I put this post up, nobody would care about John or Dan, but would love to hash and rehash the brotherhood/sisterhood debate. Not that it’s not good or important to have. Thankfully, it seems readers know that posting this here does not indicate that any one of us is very happy that this event is happening in a men’s only space either. (Thanks for not shooting the messenger.)
    I for one am interested in hearing Dan and John “dialogue.” This is the guy who conceived of Jewschool and he’s considered on par with the CEO of the largest federation in the country. That’s pretty awesome. I’m also interested in what John has to say about my and our generation(s). You know, from his ivory tower where he can read all the reports about us.

  12. Actually, I do care about John and Dan, KFJ.
    That’s why I asked
    What makes these two people any more qualified than the rest of us to sit on a stage and argue over the direction of the Jewish community?

  13. What makes these two people any more qualified than the rest of us to sit on a stage and argue over the direction of the Jewish community?
    I kind of wonder this myself.

  14. God willing, each and every one of us will take that question seriously. May we all demand audiences of the self-appointed communal spokespersons and caretakers as cheekily as Dan does. And may those spokespersons be brave enough to meet us as John. And may we know our own shit half as well as Dan does and I suspect John will also. Convictions need eloquence to win relevance; both have them in spades.

  15. As entertaining as throwing accusations of sexism and racism is (and entertaining it IS), especially when directed at the usual humanist crybabies (how sweet it is), let’s all just calm the fruit down. A bunch of Jews are meeting up motzei shabbos for a melaveh malka. Someone keep a camera rolling. Until then…

  16. Dudes, dlevy is not the person who brought the “gender” issue into this. When they sex-segregated the event, they brought the gender issue into this. Seems like an interesting event. Oh wait, I would not be allowed to go. There is therefore no way for me to have any reaction to this event, which would otherwise seem kind of cool, other than “fuck this”.
    Just because we’re pro Jewish pluralism doesn’t mean we can’t criticize each other. Pluralism is allowed to have teeth.

  17. dlevy,
    I have to admit, when I heard there was going to be schnapps there, I was so SHOCKED and APPALLED that I had to take a tranquilizer I got on the black market and breathe deeply. mobius, in light of the past two thousand years of oppression, I think the least you could do is serve a more gender- inclusive drink. Might I suggest vodka cranberries for the boys?

    1. DK writes:
      BZ, how do you propose to reconcile sexual-discriminatory MGM policies with egalitarianism?
      Girls don’t have foreskins.
      (And we’ve been going back and forth about this for long enough that I knew what you meant, even though most readers probably assumed you were talking about double standards in Hollywood.)

  18. Pluralism is allowed to have teeth.
    I like this line. Kudos for good wordsmithying.
    Personally, I am not opposed to gendered spaces that are voluntary for social purposes within communities that are welcoming to all. This isn’t a public bus, for example. And the benefits of this conversation are not material or stature or anything that would give one gender a leg up in the world. On the list of gendered sins, I feel this one is low on the totem pole.

  19. Hi everyone –
    Thanks for not actually reading what I wrote and instead reading into my words whatever you expected me to say. You’ll note that I said:
    There are certain programs that make sense to do in a single-gender forum. There are certain programs that may not necessarily lend themselves to gender segregation, but cause no harm in a single-gender forum. But there are certain discussions that, when held in a men-only environment, exponentially increase the ick factor.
    I am specifically concerned about the idea of a discussion about the direction of the organized Jewish community held in a way that very explicitly hearkens back to a day when women weren’t allowed to be part of that discussion. Still, many decisions made on the communal level are made in an old boys’ club environment.
    I know a lot of people get really defensive when we start talking about privilege, but really. However anti-establishment Dan might be, he’s still got all the white, heterosexual, male, middle-class privilege that has traditionally been the secret password into the halls of power in our community. I’m glad that Dan has often used this privilege to bring new ideas into the halls of power (such as when he addressed the GA, or when he writes for JTA), but that doesn’t erase this privilege.
    So let me turn the question back on everyone else. Why does this program need to be in a single-gender environment? Is this really a discussion men wouldn’t feel safe having with women around? Will the absence of women from the room create anything positive with regards to this subject?
    This isn’t a purely social event, as KFJ implies. Excluding women form the exchange of ideas, especially from the exchange of ideas about how our community should function, is not the same as having a mens’ only cigar and poker night, nor is it the same as having a mens’ health event.

  20. Isn’t it obvious? The deathmatch is sex-segregate for the same reason events at the pre-Maccabee Jerusalem gymnasium were closed to women: nudity. Quite brave on the part of Dan and John, actually.

  21. However anti-establishment Dan might be
    I’m glad that Dan has often used this privilege to bring new ideas into the halls of power (such as when he addressed the GA, or when he writes for JTA
    Maybe I’m missing something because I don’t know Dan personally, but why is he so “anti-establishment?” Are most JTA employees seen as “anti-establishment?”
    I’m sure he has many great ideas and he is a great person, but how can somebody be designated a spokesman for an entire generation, or for a large segment of a generation?

  22. dlevy, you are attacking Dan on a personal level by accusing him of entitlement, and considering that you are essentially anonymous with no link to your “name,” that makes you a serious coward,
    he’s still got all the white, heterosexual, male, middle-class privilege that has traditionally been the secret password into the halls of power in our community.
    1) Most of Jewish NY power and privilege is not, in fact middle class. Not in the least. It is upper class. Dan is an example of how people from the lower class backgrounds (by Jewish standards) can make it if they are exceptionally talented.
    2) Who do you feel Dan beat out in the Jewish web world that was female because of his gender, DLevy? In the off chance that you don’t have any reason to believe that at all, why don’t you reveal who you are, and apologize to Dan RIGHT NOW!
    Now I truly am actually appalled. What a nasty load of bunk.

    1. DK writes:
      dlevy, you are attacking Dan on a personal level by accusing him of entitlement
      How is that an attack? Because you live in the United States, you have had access to opportunities that billions of people in the world will never have. That’s not an attack, it’s just a fact.

  23. DK–
    Since you seem to know about such things, I’m asking you:
    What about Dan–or anybody else–makes him such an expert on the thoughts of our generation (I’m in my late 20’s,) or on the thoughts of those of us who see ourselves as not part of the “establishment?”
    Of course I’m sure that Dan is a very honest and good person, but am I missing something else?
    Are these forums the kind of things that fall under the “new methods” of Jewish community. Some on Jewschool argue that such “Jewish actitivists” deserve better salaries . . . . but if we are being asked to fund two Jewish guys to sit on a stage and argue about the Jewish community’s future, then I think I’ll save my federation contribution, buy a nice dinner instead, and argue over the Jewish community’s future with my Jewish roomate.

    1. Balaam’s Donkey writes:
      MAYBE SOMEONE JUST THOUGHT IT WOULD BE AN INTERESTING CONVERSATION FOR A MEN’S CLUB EVENT.
      So why not have it be sponsored by the BJ Men’s Havurah but open to the general public? It’s already not restricted to BJ members (even though BJ is putting on the event); why restrict it to men?

  24. Obviously this event is sex-separate with the specific intent of generating a secondary meta-conversation about gender dynamics in the Jewish community.
    I can’t believe you people didn’t see right through that.

  25. When in Jewish history have women ever even wanted to come to a Men’s Club event, by the way?
    Also: Rosh Chodesh – It’s a Girl’s Thing. I’m not smart enough to think of something to do with this, but the rest of you should find a way to argue about it.
    Only the men, though.

  26. It’s already not restricted to BJ members (even though BJ is putting on the event); why restrict it to men?
    BZ, you’re not doing the heavy part first.
    First, fix the MGM sexual discrimination and segregated and very unequal Rosh Chodesh clubs. Isn’t that a small price to pay for denying men a space of their own?

  27. Not on Rosh Chodesh groups. On Rosh Chodesh groups, you aren’t a hypocrite. Just on circ. On circ, you are indeed a hypocrite. And so is the vast majority of Liberal Jewry. so you’re in good company.

  28. BZ wrote,
    How is that an attack?
    It was absolutely an attack. This was an accusation of “entitlement” by American Jewish community standards, not Kenya and Chad’s.
    dlevy accused Dan of getting where he got for being middle class (what a joke — the Jewish world is dominated by the higher classes) and his suggestion Dan got there because he is white and male.
    That is complete nonsense. Dan got there because he is very good with the web.
    Why are we writing nasty things about Dan and his secret password of white, male, middle class (oh, ‘f’ me) “entitlement”? Oh, because he built this here website, and that turned out to be a big deal.
    Dan didn’t get where he got because of comparative “entitlement” to Jewish women or Jews of color (not Kenya or Rwanda, BZ — other American Jews). Dan got where he got because of what he created.
    That is why it is insulting.

  29. hey all.
    while i appreciate everyone’s comments here, a bit of background info. balaam’s conkey is right on.
    there’s a men’s havurah at bj. they meet regularly. this is a fact on the ground. if you don’t like that, then you won’t like anything they do. the end.
    the men’s havurah sometimes likes to have guest speakers. this month they chose jon and dan. it’s not like all upper west side orgs were thinking: where should we hold this event? oh! i know, let’s have it at the bj men’s havurah. that’s the perfect venue! likewise, bj did not say “wow let’s invite these guys to speak sometime this month, hmmm how about just at the men’s havurah?” again, simply, the havurah invited them as guest speakers. the end!
    as a women i am not at all offended. it’s not that this conversation ‘needs to be in a single gender environment’ – rather, a single gender environment that already exists happens to have invited some speakers on this topic. this is a ‘dialogue’ – not a panel of top experts. this is not THE discussion that will go down in history – just a discussion. great! i’m sure i’ll get to hear all about it. plus i’m sure that jon, dan, kfj, rabbi ezra, and other male feminists will be sure that women’s voices and stories are still part of the discussion as appropriate.
    has any other organization asked the two of them to speak as a pair? no. if they did would they say yes? probably – why not?
    the issue is not ‘shouldn’t this conversation be heard more publicly with women’ rather, shouldn’t any org, small, large, etc. be allowed to invite whoever they want to their gatherings?
    i get the irony of it all, but i don’t see it as such a big deal.
    i’ve spoken about jewschool at the new voices conference for college students on the topic of j-blogging, but no one came up to me and was like “but shamir, why aren’t you speaking at a conference where all folks interested in j-blogging can hear you, rather than students only?” and the answer was: “no one invited me to do that.”

  30. Setting aside the gender segregation point (which is totally valid – but a separate question), I’m surprised no one has responded to the basic premise of this complaint from Jonathan1:
    “What makes these two people any more qualified than the rest of us to sit on a stage and argue over the direction of the Jewish community?”
    1) This isn’t American Idol where we ask for communal voting (or that absurd UJA “contest” from a few months back to pick a Jewish community hero).
    2) One could ask the same question about nearly every public program put on the by the Jewish community, of which there are at least 50+ per day in NYC alone.
    3) One could even ask the same question of every single “leader” in the community (so thousands of rabbis, directors, cantors, board chairs, writers, activists, etc.).
    4) That we don’t need to ask this question all the time (see points 2 and 3, above) is because we understand that public programs are just the imperfect attempts of our communal organizations to put on engaging events and programs for OUR benefit. Sometimes they do a great job, sometimes not.
    My point is: Lighten up. Yes – engage in the debate about the gender segregation if that is of concern to you (I think dlevy has some valid points). But please stop implying that every public program in the world needs to be created out of some complex consensual vetting process in which we all get a vote.
    Instead, get off your a** and go VOLUNTEER for a Jewish org you feel passionate about and help them create and promote amazing community programs and events. And then you can have as much input in the selection of speakers as you’d like. Heck, you might even get the chance to be a speaker yourself.
    Sorry if I sound annoyed, but as someone who puts on events and programs for the Jewish community regularly – both as a paid professional and as a volunteer – it can become VERY frustrating to have this sort of second-guessing and criticism from people who never bothered to help out themselves in the first place. The “consumer” mentality in our community when it comes to public programs and events is really very frustrating. These things are done for YOU by people who dedicate countless hours of their own time, often unpaid, simply because they’re committed to fostering a dynamic Jewish community. For that reason, EVERY public program put on in the Jewish community deserves some applause, even when we might have concerns or criticism of the details (and I often do, too). But to ask “who is Dan to speak on this publicly,” is in my mind just a silly question and disrespectful.
    And for the record, not that Dan needs to be defended here as a speaker (see my points above), but he’s objectively massively qualified for such a forum and to suggest otherwise is either demonstrating ignorance of him and his accomplishments or is downright rude. Yes, there are others who could do this sort of forum, too. But they picked Dan and I wish him well. It should be an interesting exchange.

  31. One could ask the same question about nearly every public program put on the by the Jewish community, of which there are at least 50+ per day in NYC alone.
    Ok. What is the point of all of these forums?
    But to ask “who is Dan to speak on this publicly,” is in my mind just a silly question and disrespectful.
    More specifically, Dan wrote an interesting piece recently about the need to better fund our community activists. So, I’m asking, why should the community found him, or any of us–including me–to sit on a stage and discuss our personal opinions?
    And then you can have as much input in the selection of speakers as you’d like. Heck, you might even get the chance to be a speaker yourself.
    If this comment is directed at me, then I’m wondering why the hell would anybody pay a dime to hear me speak about my personal opinions (I don’t think for a moment anybody would of course.)

  32. It seems American Jews are completely unaware of federalism, on any level. Just let different groups do what they do and if a good idea pops up, others will pick up on it.
    Why this obsessive drive towards centralization?

  33. I have a statement on the record from Rabbi Ezra Weinberg at BJ that neither Dan Sieradski nor Jon Ruskay are being PAID or given any sort of stipend to speak at the men’s havurah – they are both volunteering their own free time.

  34. As I said before, I knew I was opening the regular pandora’s box of canned complaints when I mentioned the word privilege, and I’m not interested in providing the canned responses. There’s plenty of excellent writing by people much more invested in this than I if you’re interested in learning more about it. DK clearly isn’t.
    I will however defend myself that I am in no way writing anonymously here. If you click on my name on any of my posts, you get to my twitter page. If you look at the Masthead, you see that the “D” is David. If you care about knowing who I am, about 10 seconds worth of Googling (or reading through some of my older posts right here on Jewschool) will come up with my entire biography, including which Jewish organizations I work for, have worked for in the past, volunteer with, sit on the boards of, etc. So thanks for attacking another straw man to try to divert the subject at hand, but you sort of fail there.

  35. And BTW, I appreciate shamir’s providing of context. We got through fifty comments without attacking the messenger, but if KFJ had remembered that we don’t all live in NY, much less the Upper West Side, and provided some of the context, this conversation might have gone a little bit differently. (But only a little.)

  36. There are a lot of David Levy’s, but it does appear you are not anonymous, even if Googling did nothing to explain who you are.
    I apologize for that attack.

  37. I appreciate shamir’s providing of context. We got through fifty comments without attacking the messenger, but if KFJ had remembered that we don’t all live in NY, much less the Upper West Side, and provided some of the context, this conversation might have gone a little bit differently.
    Agreed. Thank you to shamirpower.

  38. but he’s objectively massively qualified for such a forum and to suggest otherwise is either demonstrating ignorance of him and his accomplishments or is downright rude
    And, frankly, Gregg, because we don’t all live on the Upper West Side, and because we aren’t all professional private investigators, you might have chosen to explain some of Mr. Sieradski’s “objectively massive qualifications”–which was my simple question to begin with–instead of bemoaning my ignorance of him and of his accomlpishments. (Between you and me, I’m ignorant about the lives of most of the billions of people on this planet.)

  39. I’ve been privileged to get a quick side glimpse of Dan’s qualifications personally and I can tell you — they are indeed MASSIVE.

  40. Look. This is getting too personal about Mr. Sieradski. I’m sure he’s a good guy. I do understand that he founded Jewschool.
    Apparantly, it is very offensive–to many here–to question anything about him.
    I’ll say no more.

  41. Apparantly, it is very offensive–to many here–to question anything about him.
    It’s like a family thing. Nobody is allowed to ruffle his feathers except the family. I’m also certain he’s reading everything said here, so in brotherly fashion I’m not about to sing his praises to his face. It’s too…mushy.

  42. Oy. God save us from these inside-baseball forums about “where we are” and “what we need.” Who is this “we” anyway?

  43. Apparantly, it is very offensive–to many here–to question anything about him.
    It’s not offensive, it’s fun!

  44. “What makes these two people any more qualified than the rest of us to sit on a stage and argue over the direction of the Jewish community?”
    Who said they have to be?
    If you don’t think they’re qualified, don’t go. If you think they might be qualified, go ,and make up your mind afterward.
    I help organize artist salons for a Jewish arts organization. Frequently, the comments and opinions from those in the audience are just as good, if not better, than those being featured.

  45. As a woman, I’m disappointed and pissed off and don’t understand how anyone involved, the speakers or the organizers, thought for even a minute that it was cool to do an event like this that excludes women.
    Kung Fu Jew said “I for one am interested in hearing Dan and John “dialogue.”
    I for one am too. But I’ve been excluded from that dialogue based on what’s in my pants.
    Kung Fu Jew said “I knew that when I put this post up, nobody would care about John or Dan, but would love to hash and rehash the brotherhood/sisterhood debate.”
    Apparently that’s the debate I have access to at the moment.

  46. Tara, let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re excluded based on how you present and identify and not by what’s going on in your pants. But I hear you.

  47. I think I’d feel better about this if it were only open to members of the Men’s Havurah. The fact is that this event is open to 3 billion people in the world. And it’s a big enough deal that they’re making advertising images. I don’t understand why they don’t either close it more (i.e. only members of the Havurah), or open it to everyone (i.e. non-members of the Havurah, regardless of gender).

  48. Just to note that I have laughed with John more than once at him being the UJA-Fed CEO. He began as the anti-establishment par excellence as one of the founders of the NY Havurah in 1969, a founder of Breirah, the first American Jewish org to take the positions inherited by J-Steet et al, and one of the group, I’m pretty sure, arrested for occupying the Federation headquarters in 1970. (I was there, as were a few others now the establishment).

  49. I don’t understand why they don’t either close it more (i.e. only members of the Havurah), or open it to everyone (i.e. non-members of the Havurah, regardless of gender).
    They’re doing it to recruit. Organizations don’t do events just to educate — it’s more cost effective to educate online or other methods. Public events with interesting speakers attract the kind of people one would want to become involved. The reasons it’s not open to non-men is because that’s beyond their target demographic.
    (Gregg, I’m sorry, I had to blow one of our Jewish communal professional top secrets. Nobody here will ever go to another public event again. Please forgive me.)

    1. Kung Fu Jew writes:
      The reasons it’s not open to non-men is because that’s beyond their target demographic.
      Is it open to non-Jews?

  50. as a passionate jewish feminist of the 3rd wave variety, i believe that gendered spaces are not bad things in themselves, as it is impossible to create a non-gendered space. however, this should not lend credence to the belief that all spaces must be gender segregated.
    rather, a space for people who identify as men, to me, is an important element in my life as a man, similarly, i can imagine people who identify as women also find a positive in spaces that are exclusive for people who identify as women. similarly, there should be spaces for transgender folks as well. these spaces should not be forced but rather voluntary spaces to meet people’s needs.

  51. Are you effing kidding me? Newsflash to all the whiners: public figures get criticized. Position yourself as a public figure, and you will be criticized. Such is life.
    The most irritating thing about this thread is not what side of the gender segregation debate you fall into; there’s an intelligent way to have that conversation and I feel like some folks on here are having it. But the smug cliquishness that is going around is downright embarrassing. If this blog is just a chance for a handful of NYC buddies to pal around then I’ll be on my way. It’s obnoxious and alienating.

  52. If this blog is just a chance for a handful of NYC buddies to pal around then I’ll be on my way
    hasta la vista, Hannah

  53. I don’t think most of us are actually stopping the criticism because of what Dan might think, and I don’t think any Jewschool editors have actually asked us to. No worries.
    Curious about the “moderated comment” comment above, though.

  54. WordPress automatically tags some comments for moderation, even from trusted users, based on key words, use of HTML, etc. I had to fish one of my own comments out of the spam filter this week. It happens. We do tend to delete comments that attack people or challenge the decisions of editors vis a vis moderation. Please don’t immediately assume ill intent if something takes a few minutes to show up.

  55. don’t stop on my account. you’re all doing a mighty fine job of embarrassing yourselves and i’d hate to break it up.
    thanks, though, for reminding me why i was all too happy to walk away from this site.

  56. you’re all doing a mighty fine job of embarrassing yourselves and i’d hate to break it up.
    Seriously? Give me a break.
    But I still have a question about this whole event. I’m less bothered by the gender segregation than many people here, and in any case I don’t live in New York. But I really wonder about the point of events like this, in terms of the very insider-ish feel, the false binary of “establishment” vs “anti-establishment,” and the problem of two guys in NYC getting together to have a dialogue about where “we” are and what “we” need.
    I mean, who is this we? Why assume that communities have similar issues or needs? Why this need for constant evaluation about ourselves? And again, who is the “we” here? What’s an event like this for?

  57. Wait, wait, wait: is the Daniel Sieradski on the BJ panel the same guy who has contributed such extremely helpful comments to this thread?
    Wow. Okay, then.

  58. dlevy, you did the menschlach thing revealing who you are. And that is why I feel like a real bastard calling a spade a spade.
    But I’m going to do it anyway. Because, as many of my social Leftist friends (mostly chicks) and acquaintances (co-ed — just like you folks like your chavurahs) have all so frequently informed me (and others) all too many times, sometimes “it had to be said.” So I’m going to say it.
    Most of the people who complain about “middle class privilege,” or rather, most of the Jews who complain about “middle class privilege,” are not–go figure– middle class themselves. Middle class Jews, and there are surprisingly few non-Orthodox middle class Jews in the “affiliated” world , for damned. good. reason. — do not complain about “middle class privilege.”
    You know who does?
    UPPER class Jews. Who pretend they are middle class.
    Just an fyi Dlevy. If you went to Harvard — which you did — you are not “middle class.” You, my new Facebook friend, are part of what we middle class folk call “the elite.”
    Dan did not go to Harvard. Dan did not get where he got because of the not so ” secret password into the halls of power” that is the tippy top of IVY league presume prsetige.
    That would be you (and others here), my friend.
    Not Dan.

  59. Where I live, there is an entire neighborhood of ivy league Jewish elites that chooses forced poverty and dread locks, living off their daddys trust funds in “mixed” neighborhoods. After a few years of gentrifying their neighborhood, they take some plum job in government or the non-profit world paying in the $70-150k, and then spend the rest of their lives listening to NPR, driving a Prius, hosting parties for their kind, sitting on boards of everything, and complaining that our taxes are too low.
    Glad I got that off my chest.

  60. DK, please don’t presume. I went to an Ivy League college, and I and most of my friends there were certainly from middle class families. And many schools, Harvard in particular, are getting better at leveling the income requirements for people who otherwise wouldn’t be able to come close to affording tuition. Yes, there is certainly a privilege (you don’t need to be afraid to use that word without scare quotes) component to attending as well, but we’re not nearly as homogeneous as you think.
    What working definition are you using for “upper class”? Because I certainly don’t know many people who are “Top-level executives, celebrities, heirs; income of $500,000+ common. Ivy league education common.”

  61. Most of the people who complain about “middle class privilege,” or rather, most of the Jews who complain about “middle class privilege,” are not–go figure– middle class themselves. Middle class Jews, and there are surprisingly few non-Orthodox middle class Jews in the “affiliated” world , for damned. good. reason. — do not complain about “middle class privilege.”
    This is becoming comical.
    (1) There are plently of Jews out there who have nothing to do with the “affiliated” world. And furthermore, we don’t all live in New York City and run in the same “anti-establishment” circles. For that matter, many of us don’t even know what BJ is or who Rabbi Ezra Weinberg is! Some of us–as hard as it is to believe–are actually ignorant as to Mr.Sieradski’s “objectively massive qualifications” to speak about where our generation is heading.
    (2) The USA is the richest country in human history. So, even if your income level ONLY classifies as “lower middle-class,” there are millions of people in this world who would probably give their arm to trade positions with you.
    I do realize that some of us have “pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps,” and have been able to gain admissions to Harvard evn though our father isn’t an investment banker (imagine the tragedy–not going to Harvard,) and some of us have “pulled ourselves up by our bookstraps” to gain a position where we can rub elbows with all of those evil “establishment” federation types, but there actually is a war in Iraq going on, and a war in Afghanistan, and all types of genocide in this world, and poverty too–the list can go on and on.
    So, maybe we should take a step back for a moment and get over ourselves a bit.

  62. Jonathan1,
    I don’t think it that is the appropriate response to the discussion. Someone was attacked for his relative privilege by American Jewish communal standards. To bring the discussion to other parts of the world is irrelevant.
    Maybe people should step back before attacking others of relative privilege. Not afterwards as a subject changer.
    Following your line of reason, we shouldn’t complain about any financial inequity in this country, or anything at all, since it’ a lot better than Afghanistan.
    And yet, you are on to an important deeper point. So allow me to contradict myself and sort of agree with you.
    There are plently of Jews out there who have nothing to do with the “affiliated” world.
    I was hardly disputing that. And bully for them. They are probably a lot happier than many of us who grow weary and exhausted from unremitting victimy assaults coming from large swaths of both the Orthodox-Right and the Social-Left of the Jewish world.
    This was an example of the kind of conversation that many Jews apparently don’t want to be a part of. The kind of conversation where an innovator they never heard of is attacked for getting there because of relative privilege by those from greater privilege, and where a simple men’s club gathering–at an institution that has trouble retaining men– is attacked with full-force as though it is disfranchisement.

  63. Desh,
    Drawing middle class so broadly as to include a Harvard education is risible. If you went to Havard, please do not complain about middle class privilege as if you are a member…ever.

  64. DK, acknowledging privilege is neither an attack not a complaint. But it is a fact of how some of our lives (and I would hazard a guess that means most of us reading and writing on Jewschool). I am quite aware of the privilege I’ve been afforded in my life, financial (modest, but more than many), educational (huge, as you’ve noted, and that includes my Jewish education as well), and otherwise. (And otherwise shouldn’t be underestimated. As I mentioned in my remarks at the USCJ Biennial last week, the fact that people don’t tend to read me as “queeny” has gotten me access to certain areas of the Jewish old boys’ network that other gay people might have had a harder time accesses.)
    As I mentioned when I first brought up the P word, I know that people get really defensive whenever the word is uttered. But really, understanding who we are and what opportunities have been presented to us (both earned and circumstantially) is really crucial if we’re even a little bit interested in promoting equality in our communities or in the world.
    (And incidentally, the tool KFJ linked to puts me in Upper Middle, thanks to the relatively low prestige and salary accorded to full-time religious educator. I would also like to point out I never referred to myself as any kind of class. An when referring to Dan’s middle-class privilege, I was mostly working off assumptions based on the way he described his life and opportunities in his JTA editorial last week. If that’s inaccurate, I apologize. Feel free to read “upper-class privilege” into my comments above if that works better for you.)

  65. And when referring to Dan’s middle-class privilege, I was mostly working off assumptions based on the way he described his life and opportunities in his JTA editorial last week. If that’s inaccurate, I apologize.
    Don’t apologize. He wrote something like: his fiance might not ever make a six-figures salary. Maybe I’m black-hearted, but people shouldn’t act as if that is some tragic situation (even in the context of the USA, DK.)

  66. And incidentally, the tool KFJ linked to puts me in Upper Middle, thanks to the relatively low prestige and salary accorded to full-time religious educator.
    Dude, if you’re making an Upper Middle class salary, at a young age (I presume you are in your mid-20’s,) then you are RICH!
    Enjoy it. You deserve that salary, and you are doing HaShem’s work as a full-time religious educator, but you are rich.

  67. I am not in my mid-20s, but thanks. (I will be 32 in February.)
    (And I work two jobs while also working on completing two degrees. Not being defensive, just descriptive.)
    And yes, I do consider myself rich, not only in “wealth” but also in friends, health, learning, etc.

  68. Jonathan1 writes:
    For that matter, many of us don’t even know what BJ is or who Rabbi Ezra Weinberg is!
    Less than two months ago, you wrote “We need more rabbis like this one”!

  69. I am fascinated by several threads in this discussion, and I just wanted to thank people for that. For whatever it’s worth, this event does not bother me too much; I would be just as happy if the women’s group had invited them to speak to an audience of only women. The critique of the federation system being so overwhelmingly run by men is real and must be discussed (perhaps even at this event), but that is not, I think, the fault of the BJ Men’s Havurah.
    And I realize that this is fully beside the point, but I also have a small personal stake in challenging the Harvard = upper class myth. (Disclosure: I went to Harvard with dlevy.) As the child of a research scientist and a preschool teacher, I was not upper class. I did not grow up with the sense of privilege or wealth in anything other than education and books.

  70. Abacaxi Mamao,
    You mean to tell me you went to Harvard, and you do not recognize that Ivy league status affords any sort of privilege. Is that what you are saying?
    And what does, in your book, afford privilege? Just white, straight, male penis, perhaps?

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