Christian Fundies Threaten to Withdraw Support for Israel
MediaMatters reports,
Donald E. Wildmon, founder and chairman of the American Family Association (AFA), used the occasion of the December 5 broadcast of AFA Report, his daily program on AFA-operated American Family Radio (AFR), to suggest that some members of the religious right would withdraw support for Israel if a prominent activist against anti-Semitism did not cease his criticism of it.
During the broadcast, Wildmon stated that Anti-Defamation League (ADL) President Abraham H. Foxman “got himself kind of in a bind” by criticizing the religious right. “[T]he strongest supporters Israel has are members of the religious right — the people he’s fighting,” Wildmon said. “[T]he more he says that ‘you people are destroying this country,’ you know, some people are going to begin to get fed up with this and say, ‘Well, all right then. If that’s the way you feel, then we just won’t support Israel anymore.'”
Oh, boohoo. Who needs you — other than the people in our community we ourselves are fighting against?
See also “Jewish leaders to resist Christian right” and “Jewish leaders meet on Christianization,” as well as Steven I. Weiss’ coverage of this subject on Canonist: Here, here, here and here.
Steven I. (he hearts Jesus freaks) and I will be hashing out this issue in an interblog dialogue beginning next week.
I hate to have this as my first comment on JewSchool, but Mobius, you’re a bigot.
The fact of the matter is that Foxman consistently takes up liberal positions when it comes to Judaism and Jewish relations with other groups. Sure, let’s ‘try and understand’ why radical Muslims want to kill us all, but we’ve got to ‘resist’ Christians who want to express their religious beliefs.
It’s remarkable that your position on dealing with Jews who welcome the support of Christians is that of a battle. As a traditional/observant Jew, it just clarifies to me why so many liberal/secular Jews seem so afraid or fearful of those who are more religious.
Isn’t one of the tenants of liberalism (by quoting from Media Matters, a liberal media watchdog group) open dialogue, and freedom of speech and expression? You sure seem to not care for any of that.
“Who needs you — other than the people in our community we ourselves are fighting against?”
Does this suggest you are actually siding with Foxman on this one. You know, some people consider him the Al Sharpton of Jewish world.
(OK, Ok, I know you originated that line. I just had to use it.)
junger — this is essentially what my conversation with steven i. weiss is all about.
there is a very big difference between freedom of expression and freedom of worship, and imposing your religious views on others via legislation and market power.
if christian fundamentalists want to believe and practice crazy fucked up things, by all means, may they go right ahead. when they try to use the law to force me to live under the rule of their ideology, they can shove it.
does that make me a bigot, or a civil libertarian?
Mobius, I’m a relatively new reader here, so I’m not familiar with your conversation with Steven Weiss is about. I’ll look into it, though.
I’d say it’s bigoted to call evangelicals “Jesus freaks.” Would you refer to someone who lays tefillin every morning a “tefillin freak?” I keep Shabbos, does that make me a “Shabbos freak?”
I’d also say it’s bigoted to infer that people like me (an observant Jew, in your community) as your enemy.
In terms of the difference between freedom of expression and worship, I’m pretty sure that the Constitution protects both of them (unless they’ve changed the First Amendment since the last time I checked).
And I’m also interested in how Christian “fundamentalists” (your word, not mine) are forcing you to live under their rule of ideology. Did you have to ask one of them permission to post your comments on a Web site called “Jew School?”
i didn’t say you’re my enemy. but i will fight against you if you fight to legislate morality. love of god and god’s word must happen organically. you must awaken a love of god in your fellow, not use the law to force obedience on them.
in terms of force: you wanna start with bans on abortion and gay marriage and work our way up? mandatory prayer in schools, mandatory teaching of creationism? “one nation under god” in the pledge of allegience and on the dollar bill? defunding of social services to fund “faith-based initiatives”? using taxpayer money for municipal christmas decorations including nativity scenes? the new war on porn? attempts to have the fcc ban spongebob squarepants because he’s too gay? and dare i say, defending israel at all costs?
yes, christian fundies attempting to force the american public to live as they desire. it’s not a myth. it’s a stark reality.
“Who needs you — other than the people in our community we ourselves are fighting against?”
I’m fine with Christians supporting Israel. I appreciate this guy’s support. Your comment dealt with support for Israel, not “legislating morality.” You make me and people like me to be your enemy. All because we have a different view of things than you. That’s pretty fascist.
Last time I checked:
Roe v. Wade still allowed abortion, almost limitless, allowing very few (if any) regulations. See the decision to strike down partial-birth abortion bans as one of the most recent rulings.
Gay Marriage: Move to my state, Massachusetts.
School prayer: The Supreme Court has ruled against school-sponsored prayer. (BTW, where’s your outrage at the San Francisco school district that has kids dressing up like Muslims, praying and fasting? Don’t be a hypocrite)
Mandatory teaching of creationism: See what voters did to the Dover, Penn. school board that backed intelligent design?
By the way, you didn’t answer my question about asking “the fundies” for permission to post here. Do you have to run everything by them before you do?
We make a big mistake if we think the Christian right is an ally of Israel in any complete sense. The Christian right supports the Israeli right (and, yes, many on the left believe all things Israel and Zionist are rightwing by nature) to the extent that its agenda is compatible with rightwing Christian interests. That would disqualify almost any Israeli poltical interest group to the left of the Temple Mount Faithful.
Make no mistake, the Christian right (ie, FOF, AFA, 700 Club, Moral Majority, and their ilk) does not promote Jewish national self-determination in its complete sense. Their support for Israel is conditional on consistency with their own narrow theology and ideology. If such rightwing Christian support for Israel wasn’t so superficial and cynical, it wouldn’t be so easy for Don Wildmon to say stuff like, “some people are going to begin to get fed up with this and say, ‘Well, all right then. If that’s the way you feel, then we just won’t support Israel anymore.'”
Mobius,
I am with you here. Junger, the fact that we still have freedom to do these things is not indicative of a lack of desire on the part of evangelicals to legislate morality. They have tried and are continuing to do so.
I don’t like partnering with people who have their agenda.
Mobius,
Does having “In God We Trust” on the dollar bill really bother you that much?
Are you being forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance?
And Nativity Scenes?
The only reason they go up is because, whether you like it or not, we live in a country whose majority identifies itself as Christian.
Nobody’s telling you you have to bow down in front of the statue of the virgin Mary and worship, or declare Jesus your king.
I live in the Bible Belt, and believe me, even down here there is no mandatory school prayer, whether in primary school, secondary school, or university.
I fail to see the problem here.
I’m not a fan of the current administration either, but it’s not like we live under the Taleban either.
The faith-based initiave is a practical idea.
Churches, mosques, and yes, synagogues, have been handling things like charity and social services for a lot longer than the government has, and tend to do a better job.
It’s only practical to take that responsibility from the federal and state government and put it in the hands of the local communities.
Who better to handle it than the religious organizations.
Jack — do you support murder? I mean, really, killing someone isn’t very moral. But it’s a crime to kill someone. Should we allow murder because banning it takes a moral position?
What about something like abortion? You might think it’s a moral thing to “let a woman choose,” but obviously there are people who think otherwise.
Or, on a religious level, do you think it’s moral to have egalitarian davening? Do your morals say “equality for all?” There’s a well-reasoned argument for the other side.
It’s that your morals are different than theirs, not morality in general.
Sorry for the double posting, but I just wanted to point to a comment posted on the Media Matters item Mobius links to above.
“Israel is no friend of progressives
Why do we care about this? Why is it mentioned? Is Media Matters assuming we’re Israel supporters? I for one am most absolutely NOT a supporter of Israel.
* – jezzdogg / Friday December 9, 2005 10:26:34 AM EST”
Just pointing this out.
Junger,
Foxman has not consistently taken up liberal positions vis a vis Judaism or anything. Read this, for instance.
In terms of the influence of Christian fundamentalist crusaders in this country, here’s one of many recent examples.
Hashem dammit, as usual, my links don’t show up!
#1 is http://www.forward.com/issues/…
#2 is http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new…
EV, while I stand by my comments about Foxman, a full-blown researched argument isn’t something that I have the time to do.
But I have to wonder, did you read the article you linked to about the Darwin exhibit?
The only quotes backing the position of the author are anonymous. The press officer for the museum doesn’t say anything about evangelicals affecting the decision to back the display. The marketing director, similarly, says no such thing. The first four paragraphs of the article don’t attribute any statement to a single person. The only people quoted attacking the lack of backing are not named. And this is coming from a known liberal media source, the Daily Telegraph.
I don’t know if you’ve ever taken a class in journalism, but the following is not an opinion-free paragraph:
“The failure of American companies to back what until recently would have been considered a mainstream educational exhibition reflects the growing influence of fundamentalist Christians, who are among President George W Bush’s most vocal supporters, over all walks of life in the United States.”
I’m more than willing to listen to your arguments, but you have to provide an accurate, unbiased source.
It’s that your morals are different than theirs, not morality in general.
Absolutely. And I am very cautious about aligning myself with people whose moral compass veers from my own. It is far to use emotional arguments such as they are against murder and so am I, so we shouldn’t be upset.
There is a target on our backs. I don’t like people who proselytize by using religious terror tactics. And IMO telling someone that they face eternal damnation if they don’t believe as you do is a terror tactic. It is designed to scare you into changing your ways.
I don’t like their push for the homogenization of America. I don’t appreciate people who support me strictly because I fit into prophecy, interpretations change.
Support me because you support people and you are interested in equality not because G-d told you too.
This is your original comment:
“…not indicative of a lack of desire on the part of evangelicals to legislate morality. They have tried and are continuing to do so.”
This is very different than agreeing with my statement than your morals are different than theirs.
“There is a target on our backs.” OK, we agree on something, but I think you’re worried about the wrong group. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there’s a group out there of radical Muslims who literally (not figuratively or metaphorically as you suggest) want to kill us. Is it possible that this is a more compelling matter than having “In G-d we trust” on our money?
“And IMO telling someone that they face eternal damnation if they don’t believe as you do is a terror tactic. It is designed to scare you into changing your ways.”
Are you content and confident in your beliefs? Do you believe that Judaism is the right path? You should. If you know that what you are doing is right, that’s all that matters.
PS, you didn’t answer my questions about murder and women’s issues as being moral issues. Please advise.
The Daily Telegraph is liberal?? Um, no, it’s actually the most conservative British broadsheet.
EV, you’re right. My fault — I was thinking of the Guardian. Nonetheless, my criticism of the story stands.
“in terms of force: you wanna start with bans on abortion and gay marriage and work our way up? mandatory prayer in schools, mandatory teaching of creationism? “one nation under god” in the pledge of allegience and on the dollar bill? defunding of social services to fund “faith-based initiatives”? using taxpayer money for municipal christmas decorations including nativity scenes? the new war on porn? attempts to have the fcc ban spongebob squarepants because he’s too gay? and dare i say”
It works both ways:
The people of Georgia arent trying to prevent the people of new york from getting abortions, however, the people of new york are trying to force those in gorgia to legalize a practice most in the state abhor.
I dont see why you wont just let democracy take its course and let the people of their own states decide what they want (and dont say because youre enforcing the constitution, because even most leftist legal scholars concede that abortion being protected by the constitution is a super strech and was a very poor decision.). Georgia shouldnt push their viewpoints on new york, and new york should stay out of Georgia’s democratic decisions.
Also, most of the stuff you mentioned has been the status quoe for quite a long time, and was not started by the
extreme right, and it is the left that is now trying to change things.
The connections between Jews and Israel are well known and it is correct to take Israel as an home for Jews, however, why does every Jew have to be taken as an Israeli ambassador, if one supports Israel, they should do so not only because they support Jews, but because they support a middle eastern country which keeps fighting for its existance all the time.
(I am from Israel)
Christians, Jews or whoever should keep supporting us if they believe in our ways, not just because they are fond of Judaism.
Junger,
Does this mean you enjoy when some Christian fundamentalist groups line to to convert us on Yom Kippur? It’s not a question of whether or not I’m confident or have faith in my beliefs. It’s a question of living in a free society where I shouldn’t be hassled because of my beliefs, or be told my beliefs are wrong on a regular basis. As for PA, you heard about how Pat Robertson responded to the people who voted in the school board elections, right? or about how Scopes II is replaying in Kansas? These statements are also coming from the same groups that threatened to withdraw support from Israel if people made too much of a deal about the passion. They’re using us, their support has “strings”. And I don’t need, nor want, that kind of “support”.
Amanda- the Gov’t would be doing a lot better job handling charity if it wasn’t voting for billion dollar tax breaks to millionaires. We may live in a country that has a majority of Christians, but the whole reason the country was set up the way it was by the founders (separation of church and state, for example) was because THEY DID NOT want 51 percent of the country to have tyranny over the rest. And to suggest we’re not living under the Taleban, I have to say, Amanda, as a woman living in the bible belt, you’re fooling yourself if you think that’s not coming.
Joe- a very big distinction here is that NO ONE IN NEW YORK IS TRYING TO FORCE ABORTIONS ON ANYONE. There’s a difference between being pro choice and pro abortion. Just beccause you support a person’s right to chose, that doesn’t mean you are for abortion personally. If you abhor the practice, don’t have one. Crisis averted. The idea that this is the status quo, and now the “left is changing things” is laughable to me.
Who needs you — other than the people in our community we ourselves are fighting against?
Who is this “we”?
always find it amusing when jews attack fundamentalists as the major concern. mainstream xtains (e.g. presbyterians, anglicans, lutherans etc.) have become virulently anti israeli, calling for divestment, meeting with terrorists, etc. AND funding “messianic” outreach programs to Jews; muslims now control most to the middle east study programs at our major universities, creating a hostlile environment for jews and supporters of Israel – and we are attacking the fundamentalists who support us and Israel (maybe for reasons we don’t agree with, but so what). That the world thinks Jews are intelligent is baffling, our behavior demonstrates the most amazing stupidity imaginable.
junger,
This may be perceived as being off-topic (if you guys are even still paying attention – I got to this thread a day late), but doesn’t it bother you that the main reason that Christian fundamentalists support Israel so vehemently is that they believe that when a critical number of Jews return, this will trigger Jesus’ return as well – at which time a limited number of us will convert, and the rest of us, the overwhelming majority, will die horribly and burn in hell for all of eternity?
Jews who are politically and/or theologically conservative seem, in general, not to mind this. The attitude as I’ve heard it expressed is, “When Moshiach comes, we’ll worry then about who was right.” I can’t begin to fathom this. Salvific exclusivism is the line of demarcation for me. As soon as they tell me that I’m going to go to hell (and I can see that the idea doesn’t really bother them), I lose all interest in anything else they may have to say (or contribute monetarily).
Dan, I’ve been told that we need their money and political influence. This may be the case. If so, I HATE the fact that it has to be that way.
cipher, we live in the real world where one makes choices amongst tough alternatives – the U.S. didn’t ally herself with Russia in WWII because we loved the bolsheviks – on the one hand we have the fundies some of whom support us for the reason you suggest (which I agree is despicable) – on the other we have the libs/muslims/national council of churches types who would dismantle israel, and demonize jews as part of the white oppressor class lording it over blacks and poor people, and this latter group directly makes life miserable for campus jews, israelis, and creates a climate in the intelligencia where to be pro israel is to be shunned. I know how to smile and say no thanks to someone with a new testament in their hand – I don’t know how to protect myself against the Presbyterian church trying to get Caterpiller to stop selling tractors to Israel. It is pretty clear to me that the choice is Russia over Germany.
support israel because you believe in the right of jewish people to self-determination; support israel because you believe that the jewish people have a historical tie to the land and thus a right to live and flourish there; support israel because you believe the non-jewish world is incapable of treating jews with human decency; support israel because you believe that you are enchanted with the land and its people in a way which compels you to give forth your love; support israel because as a house it dwells within you.
do not support israel because you want jesus to come back and kill us all. do not support israel because you think god will give you brownie points for doing so.
avi…i don’t have a problem with people protesting the sale of catepillars to israel. why? because i’ve seen up close what israel does with them. what i do have a problem with is unilateral divestment which punishes israels as if they are a unified people in favor of occupation. divestment as such does nothing except drive an impoverished people (the majority of israelis who have an average household income of less than $12,000 year) into further poverty.
but this isn’t a divestment. this is about giving jerry falwell the jabotinsky award. this is about taking favors from people who deserve our contempt, not our friendship. this is about being in bed with people who are perverting torah and leaving a fascist empire in their wake. this is about the karmic impact of playing lovey-dovey with these people.
and i don’t think torah looks so highly on playing on being a devious little ass-kisser nodding before foreign power for the sake of territory.
feh 2:30 post matisyahu’s highest show ever
ignore my incoherence
I understand about making tough choices, and doing business with people whom one dislikes, but I want to agree with mobius. I don’t want to be in bed with the fundamentalists; I want to believe that we don’t need their support. I’d love to be able to tell them, “No, thanks – and, by the way, your theology is an abomination.” Unfortunately, I don’t know enough about Israeli politics or economics to argue intelligently about it. Dan, this is why I emailed you that link to the story about Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein some months back; this has been bothering me for a long time. I’m looking forward to your upcoming dialogue with Weiss.
BTW, a few weeks ago I sent you a link to some photos of the Dalai Lama in a tallit. Did you get it?
avigreen: “muslims now control most to the middle east study programs at our major universities, creating a hostlile environment for jews and supporters of Israel”
Prove it.
Z, from today’s haaretz; A new book was discussed, “The UnCivil University: Politics and Propaganda in American Education,” which is based on a study and interviews conducted in universities. The book presents a sad and disturbing picture of anti-Semitism disguised as an academic debate about the Middle East. Dr. Gary Tobin, one of the book’s authors and president of the Institute for Jewish & Community Research, San Francisco, explained that the main problem today does not lie in open or blatant anti-Semitism, but rather in atmospheres and teaching styles.
“The academic debate on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is framed in the politics of racial discrimination, and this is why it has so much currency on campuses,” says Tobin. “Jews are the white, colonialist oppressors and the Palestinians are the brown victims of colonization. So to be a white Jew in support of Israel you risk being branded as a racist. And that accusation is more insidious on a day-to-day basis than any mass rally.”
The study presents reports of insults and humiliations suffered by Jewish students due to their support for Israel, and describes how Jewish faculty members that support Israel are being forced out. In a corresponding debate held in the U.S. Senate last week, there was discussion of the anti-Israeli atmosphere that prevails in centers for Middle Eastern studies in American universities, some of which are funded by Arab money.
The hostile style forged by the late Professor Edward Said persists at Columbia University, and includes personal attacks involving Nazi images on individual students in the classroom who are accused of killing Arab children. In addition, maps of the Middle East from which Israel’s name has been expunged are used in these study centers as a matter of course.
avigreen,
I don’t disagree that there is a problem in the presentation of Jewish national rights in the context of academic discourse. But my own experience shows me that a big part of the problem has been Jews taking the good faith necessary for genuine academic discourse for granted, and allowing cyincal demagogues to dominate the discussion.
That said, there are about 2,000 acredited universities in the US (more if you start counting institutions like community colleges), and your comment only mentions Columbia. That hardly supports your statement, “muslims now control most to the middle east study programs at our major universities….”
I am confident that Israel’s legitimacy is easily argued within any discourse or debate which follows academic standards. But we have only relatively recently begun to address the need to put forth those arguments.
Mobius, I think this whole Zionist cause is walking in the wrong direction. I don’t think we need to support Israel because of Jewish Historical ties. I don’t think we should support Israel because of “leshanna habba” or any other religious ideology. And I think the right for Jewish self-determination is a legitimate one but it seems a bit redundant in the current times of Golden Globe nominations and magalithique` cement barriers (talk about bo rer).
The debate here and now, in this world, is the survival of an Israeli state. Judaism and its teachings only make sense in a “chutz l’aretz” framework. If it wasn’t for the “exiled” Jew, there would be no tradition and there would be no Jew. Judaism is an exilic culture and the messianic furvor that it wraps itself around will only survive in this context.
The problem with Pro-Israel dialogue is its refusal to detach itself from a Jewish cause. I am definitely not a self hating Jew. I surely don’t mind a Jewish State but international dialogue, in terms of ensuring Israel’s survivability, will not allow it. We can say fuck those guys and fuck these guys, but America is losing it’s grip on reality and we cannot continue to rally our cause (what ever it may be) around our historical misfortunes. So before I make this into a rambling manifesto I’ll get to the point.
Let’s begin to focus on an Israeli cause, and a Jewish cause. Contrary to popular belief, they are not synonymous. If Israel was the only place that would allow us to practice Jewish self-determination than we’re fucked. And if Yerushalyim is the epicenter of our spirituality and faith, than the whore house on King George and Ben Yehuda is its terrorist. Let’s get serious here, the real Israeli is not the oleh chadash, it’s his children, it’s not the Har nofer, it’s the uncircumcised Russian mefak’ed. My Yerushalyim is in my heart, and my fists read Israeli.