45 thoughts on “Civil War’s A-Brewin’

  1. even though i agree with the need for evacuting gaza, on both military and population grounds, one would have to be a heartless asshole scum to not feel for those jews who have lived there for over two generations, had loved ones murdered by crazed muslims, suffered misery and deprivation in order to perform what they consider their g-d given obligation to protect the entire historical israel; these gaza jews have suffered deprivation, terror, and unspeakable hardship in their sacrifice for all of us. so instead of luridly relishing what will be a difficult time, let those of us with a heart and a sense of jewishness be saddened that for the sake of the greater good (i hope), jews will once again be expelled from their homes.

  2. What deprivatioin? I feel more for the teenaged Israeli soldiers forced to risk their lives protecting beaches and farms in the name of a twisted ideology.

  3. eli, unfortunately you appear not to have a heart. of course we feel for the soldiers protecting jewish lives; but cant you find it in somewhere in your jewishness to feel for jews living not in beaches and farms but crowded ugly little shacks, and small bungaloes, not for a twisted ideology, but because their (not unsustainable) reading of the bible indicates we belong there? when we give our own brethren the same understanding we give the arabs in all their crazed ways, we might actually be one people.

  4. “I feel more for the teenaged Israeli soldiers forced to risk their lives protecting beaches and farms in the name of a twisted ideology.”
    Last time I checked thats what all of Israel is. Excluding the twisted ideology.

  5. this is about the most sense i’ve ever seen avi green make.
    i do feel for the settlers in gaza, the same way i feel for the french algerians, who had been there even longer than the gaza settlers, and yet were kicked out during the algerian independence struggle. i understand why they had to go, and at the same time feel for the individuals involved. it’s not impossible to do.

  6. So, because someone believes really strongly that God wants them to do what they’re doing, we should feel sorry for their hardships on the way? That’s a pretty sketchy proposition to take to it’s logical conclusions…
    You say they’re sacrificing for ME…actually, as a Jew, I feel LESS safe as the settlements grow.
    It’s great when disagreeing with you means I’m heartless. What about the suffering of the Palestinian families who have been there longer than 2 generations, who are also living a life of deprivation and isolation? I bet you don’t have much heart for them.

  7. How will evacuating the ‘settlements’ in Gaza make anything safer. The Palestinians will just be closer to other cities in Israel to attack.
    The statements they have made relating to what they plan on doing after the disengagement show they have no interest in peace until Israel is non-existent.
    If anybody would like to see how Hamas is looking at this there is an article on the web site of Arutz-7. They are conservative but doesn’t mean that the reporting is off-base.

  8. I am sorry, I had not looked further down the board to notice that a version of the article was already posted here.

  9. Yawn,
    Mob you getting into the fun as well with ‘perceived settler violence’?
    Convenient how no one has bothered to post here on the various thoughts going around the left wing the past few months, and specifically former top high-ranking security officials, about the growing need to perform another Altalena.
    Can you believe this?
    You talk about perceived violence, and these peace-loving leftists openly advocate the need for opening fire on fellow Jews ‘settlers/religious/right-wingers’ in order to get over the current hurdle.
    When the army came to destroy the synagogue in Tapuah West, a soldier fired into the air on automatic. These are two things that are quite irregular.
    Who will assure the Israeli public that the first bullet that flies doesn’t come from a soldier, policeman, agent provacateur (fake settler) to provoke this AltalenaII?

  10. Mob,
    I apologize. It seems that this morning Sharon is also on the ‘delegitimize the right’ bandwagon again too and all the local media are giving his ‘worries’ major headlines space.
    we now know that something will happen to prove him right. The knesset is not interested currently to pass the seperation laws or allocate a budget to the deportation committee, but Sharon has constantly persisted that he’ll make sure that it happens. After some settler shoots a soldier, the backlash against the entire settlement enterprise will be strong.
    G-d help us all. We are all on this ship together. Destroying one town in Israel will start a domino roll that will be hard to stop.

  11. Have you ever visited a Jewish town in Gaza, Mobius? Or is it against your principles to look these folks in the eye as you advicate for their expulsion.
    Let me know when you would like to spend a Shabbat there. I’ll set you up with some nice folks.
    Don’t rape truth.

  12. If the KnittedKippa Faction outside the GreenLine truly believes in the democratic process, they get on those busses peacefully (and sit down like nice happy citizens) and then address their concerns in various elections and peaceful demonstrations near their new homes, AND they’ll return their stolen arm caches to the IDF.
    I doubt both, and most certainly doubt their dedication to Israeli Democracy is any stronger than their worship of land.
    .rob adams

  13. How are people who have twice defeated Sharon’s disengagement plan in votes that he is ignoring not participating in the democratic process Rob.
    I addition to the two defeats of the disengagement plan (Both by votes of 60% to 40%), Sharon was elected to office in both of the last two elections by a majority of the Israeli public for opposing the disengagement ideology he now is attempting to ram through. How is that democratic.
    As far a Gaza not being Israel, I guess that is all in how you define Israel. If you only want to look at Israel in the modern post 1948 borders you would be correct. If you look at Israel as a historic land area prior to the 1948 re-establishment of a self-determining Jewish homeland, you would not be correct. The only reason there was not a jewish presence in Gaza prior to the 1967 war was because the long established jewish communities in the Gaza areas were expelled by the Egyptians after the 1948 sessation of hostilities.

  14. Little Wolf –
    You say “How will evacuating the ‘settlements’ in Gaza make anything safer. The Palestinians will just be closer to other cities in Israel to attack.” Actually, their proximity to other cities in Israel will remain the same, and probably their number of attacks will, too. That number, by the way, has been zero since the barrier around Gaza has been in place. The only two bombers to come out of Gaza were the Brits from last year’s Mike’s Place attack in Tel Aviv.

  15. little wolf — that’s disingenuous. gaza was never part of biblical israel (tho granted, it was part of abraham’s inheritance, it was not one of the lands bestowed to jacob); and prior to 1948, it was part of -gasp- PALESTINE.

  16. Ariela,
    you’re forgetting about the Ashdod port massacre. Oh, and a few dozen surface-to-surface missiles with only two dead and a few wounded, but like homas Friedman says, ‘that’s a peace I can live with.”
    Speaking from experience guarding the fence around Gaza, the border isn’t as impervious as you think. It isn’t that that rare for Gazan Arabs to try/suceed in getting over/through/under. You just never hear about it in the media, but just go work on a kibbutz in the area for a few weeks, and you’ll probably get the idea of what it’s like when the army goes on infiltration alert.
    Little wolf is sort of right. By not having the army inside the strip, the Gazans have free reign to import weapons and keep building the stockpile they’ve been amassing for the past ten years, bringing Israeli cities closer to more potent firepower. Just because they haven’t used most of it, doesn’t mean they don’t have it, or are keeping it for the next round.
    I warn you guys all the time, please don’t underestimate them.
    and Mob,
    for the record again,
    you’re saying that Jews who lived in ‘east Jerusalem’, Hebron, Kfar Etzion and Kfar Darom (just to name a few) before 1948, don’t deserve to keep their property?

  17. It’s amazing the concern for Jews to keep their land, but NONE about the right of Palestinians to keep theirs. You know, there are many Palestinian families that have been living on their land for a LOT more than a few generations.

  18. Sharon can be voted from the PM seat at any time by MK’s. Correct me if i am wrong, but i don’t see a Sharon-coup. His government is proceeding with the evactuation protocol *within* the democratic process of the government’s beaucracy.
    If the settlers truly believe him to be a dictator, then they should contact their MK’s and have a no-confidence vote scheduled; And, should he be defeated they can then pusch for their dati-centric replacement. I doubt that shall happen.
    The busses shall arrive, and small arms fire shall ensue.
    The settlers’ false claim to democracy is a sham, which shall be profoundly demonstrated during the moments of their then scheduled relocation. Every round they fire against the IDF is ample testament of such.
    LandWorshipers, most of them.
    Economic opportunists the rest.
    .rob adams

  19. Josh –
    Thanks for reminding me – Yes, the attack in Ashdod was carried out by Palestinians from Gaza, though my point was more about Little Wolf’s assertion that a withdrawal will somehow allow the terrorists in Gaza to be “closer to other cities in Israel to attack.”
    I doubt any border is truly impervious, and I certainly do not underestimate the power of Hamas, nor their growing stockpile of weapons. But I don’t think a continued military presence, especially one specifically geared towards defending fundementalist religious civilians, is going to somehow prevent a proliferation of terrorism in the territories. (I realize not all the soldiers in Gaza are there to defend the settlers, but how much more effective could their services be if they were purely for combating terrorism and not guarding relatively resort-like cities in the middle of a warzone?) It’s simply impractical to retain the Gaza settlements. If not militarily and morally, at the very least economically!
    The point is, Gaza settlements are not acting as a “first line of defense” against Palestinian terrorism, but they ARE using up resources that could be better utilized in their absence.
    and about “homas Friedman” …tell me that spelling was on purpose, cuz my respect for your wit has increased manyfold.

  20. Ariela,
    sorry I did make a couple of spelling mistakes in that post.
    Not all settlers in Gush Katif are religious or religious/fundamentalist.
    How will the soldiers guarding the settlements be freed up to combat terrorism and where? Once we leave, Sharon promises to reenter the same way it took so very long until the Netanya massacre for us to go into Jenin. I believe that once we leave, the Arabs will see how easy it was to beat the Jews with some subtle pressure, and the next round is not far behind.
    Look what happened the last time we retreated from somewhere – Lebanon. Right now, it is estimated that 10 000 katyusha missiles are pointed at the heart of Israel, so many in fact, that Israel is scared shitless to do anything when an Israeli is killed up north, other than to bomb empty shacks (remember that two technicians were killed two months ago? We didn’t do anything other than accuse them of not operating under normal procedures).
    Oh, and you can bet as much as you want on the fact that the folks in Gush Katif are the first line (or maybe last line) of defense. 4385 mortars and missiles over the past four years on them rather than the other yishuvim in the NorthWest Negev.
    during succot, I’m sure that Gush Katif will be having an open house for visitors. I really suggest that you take a ride there and see for yourself. Kfar Darom was bought 70 years ago by a Jew and later sold to the JNF. In 1946, Jews started living there on legally owned land.

  21. avi green wrote:
    “one would have to be a heartless asshole scum to not feel for those jews who have lived there for over two generations, had loved ones murdered by crazed muslims, suffered misery and deprivation in order to perform what they consider their g-d given obligation to protect the entire historical israel”
    The majority of settlers are not religious settlers but are settlers for reasons of economics
    As for the religious settlers, why should anyone feel any worse for them, than they do for the filipinos who nail themselves to crosses every year
    Yeah they’re nuts, and to the extent that they bring harm upon themselves due to their delusions that’s sad. But you know intentionally bringing kids up going to school in armored busses in Gaza is nothing short of child abuse. I feel much worse for the kids than the adults. But it’s not like they won’t be given free houses elsewhere.

  22. Whom to address first.
    I don’t believe that I mentioned biblical Israel at all. I was discussing the situation from a purely historic perspective. I believe that there was a jewish presence in Gaza for centuries. Should we just leave all of that.
    Even if I wanted to stay within purely modern history. The Partition Plan for the land, whether you want to call it a good plan or not, gave Gaza and the ‘West Bank’ to the area called Palestine. The whole area called Palestine, which included Jordan originally, was to be designated the Jewish homeland. The Arabs objected so the area east of the Jordan river was then designated as a home land for Palestinian Arabs.
    Also prior to the establishment of Israel the term Palestinian refered to the Jews not the Arabs living in the area.
    When I was discussing the terrorists being closer to Israeli cities I was discussing the use of Kassam Rockets. They are launching them regularly now, but they luckily have not been real accurate with them.
    Just because the opposition to the plan hasn’t brought down Sharon’s government yet doesn’t mean that he is not acting completely democraticly. As I stated before, he has ignored the wishes of his own party constituency in 2 separate votes. He agreed before each that he would accept the out come of the votes, but lost both by a margin of 60% to 40%.
    It is probable that Sharon’s government will not survive much longer and then the real issues is whether he can regain the PM’s position or not.
    So if I extend your thought out to its logical conclusion: It is okay to expel jews from their home in ‘occupied’ territory. But not okay to expel the Palestinians from any territory. If the Palestinians had legitimate claims as they say, why didn’t Jordan and/or Eqypt set up a separate country for them when they controlled that land. Why did both of these countries drop there claims to these territories after it was apparent that the Palestinians could garner international support for there claim?
    Additionally I don’t believe that I have ever advocated expel anyone from any land. This would include not expelling the Jews living in Gaza from there homes when they would have been occupied for much longer than 30 years if not for the Egyptian Military expelling the Jewish residents from that area in 1948. Then the argument about time would not have been an issue, the Jewish residency would have been much longer.

  23. John:
    So the fact that they will be given free houses someplace else makes it okay to forcibly remove them from their homes.
    I tell you what I will remove you from you house and relocate you to the place of my choice free of charge. Sound okay to you

  24. JB wrote:
    “But you know intentionally bringing kids up going to school in armored busses in Gaza is nothing short of child abuse.”
    But killing them is jihad!

  25. Biblically, a lot more than just Gaza belongs to the Jews. Way more land than we have today. We should start talking about getting back the East bank.

  26. emotionally, intellectually, and religiously, it is clear that the jews have the right to continue to live in gaza. but what my religious friends can never answer is how do we keep israel both democratic and jewish if we incorporate the entire population of the arab palestinian population into israel proper. the half suggested answers seem to be: a) g-d will provide answer somehow in the future, e.g. more immigration, etc.; i remember several midrashes whose point was that g-d does not serve up miracles on demand, we have to help ourselves, and counting on massive immigration is too much a long shot; b) somehow bribe/drive the arabs away: the world (including the us) would never put up with that, and those who dont think we need the us heavily on the side of israel are deluding themselves. So the only practical answer seems to be Sharon’s, lop off the areas we dont need for security and that dont have heavy jewish population centers (eg get rid of gaza and a lot of the west bank), keep the other (eg. east jerusalem), build a big wall, and let the arabs all kill themselves in intramural fighting over the next few decades. sadly ,that means forcing some of the best jews, those who have sacrificed the most for the rest of us, to leave their homes – i cry for them

  27. little wolf, ‘palestinian’ referred to both jewish AND ARAB inhabitants of palestine. stop erasing their history.
    josh, i’ll set foot in gush katif over my dead body. i’m not giving sanction to their madness.
    velvel — the lands promised to the descendants of abraham includes gaza, yes. but yishamel is abraham’s descendant, and was promised to be made a great nation, too.

  28. will anyone be surprised when mobius announces hes converted to the muslim religion, become a french citizen, and joined hamas?

  29. Mobius:
    I am not trying to erase anyones history. The term palestinian prior to the establishment of Israel was used in relation, mostly, to Jewish organization in the land. Examples being the Palestine Post (now the Jerusalem Post) and the Palestine Orchestra. In both cases these organizations were Jewish. The native arab populations may very well have considered themselves to be palestinians, but few used that term to refer to themselves until 1967 after Gaza and the ‘West Bank’ were taken from Egypt and Jordan. The PLO didn’t exist until 1964 when Nasser decided he need more prestige in the Arab League and named one his own citizens (Yasser Arafat) to be the head of said organization.
    That is their history.
    Also as far as Yismael. The Arab peoples being decended from him came up after 1948. Prior to that the only historic figure they continued to refer to was the Mohommed. The fact that they are trying to claim the Palestine Mandate territories that were given to ‘The Jews’ or ‘The Zionist Entity’ brought about the claims of being decendents of Yismael, as a way to use the Torah for their claim.
    Avi Green:
    If you are going to put up walls and not claim territory any way, why make the people who are living in Gaza, in a defined area that directly borders the 1948 borders, move from their homes. Incorporate that land in to the plan and only remove the people who are so far out of the areas that you can sensible include in the walled off areas. If they are willing to move.
    And I do have another question that relates to all of this discussion.
    How are we defining Occupied Territory? Before anyone answers, it must be a general definition that fits any situations, but the following: All of the US, Northern Ireland, Most of the Russian Federation (including Chechnya), Tibet, Kurdistan, Bask territories, and any other lands that, outside of the holy land, are currently control by people who are not native to the land.
    Just a curious question that I have been struggling with myself.

  30. my, my, my…
    The great Mobius called me a mothafucka erez rosh hashana. I am blessed.
    Little Wolf,
    the fact is that Arabs in pre-48 Palestine thought that the term Palestinian was derogatory and refused to be called Palestinian.

  31. josh, that was directed at avi, not at you. and i am digging deep in my heart to find forgiveness and have compassion for avi. it’s not easy when a person so contemptuous and unreasonable persists in antagnozing you on a daily basis.

  32. Josh:
    And yet now they call themselves that. I think that in and of itself. Is VERY telling.
    Probably the main reason they didn’t want to called Palestinians is that they were not interested in living in the area long-term but possible in returning elsewhere when the economy of where ever home was improved. And other may have thought of themselves as Syrian or Jordan (after both were allowed to form governements under the mandates.)
    Either way it partially proves the point I was trying to make. And that is that the people who call themselves Palestinians may have a history in the land, but they never really identified with it until it became politically expedient to do so.
    Beyond that to all on hear I wish a L’Shana Tova.

  33. Mobius, it’s nice to see you quoting from the torah. up to now you haven’t accepted it as a source for the Jewish people. Now that you have a superficial understanding of it dig a little deeper into it’s commentators just like you do for other “sacred texts” (from time immemorial?) and know a little more from what you are talking about. I am sure you will be thorough and find every single commentator on this subject and will form an opinion on their worthiness. But that is what yeshiva study is all about.
    Avi – lighten up on the guy. He’s asking important questions for him and if you would answer them in a somewhat respectable manner he might even be receptive to what you have to say. Right now even when you are “right” he’s just standing there with his finger in his ear figuratively saying “NAHH NAHHH I DON”T HEAR YOU”.

  34. nice as you’re trying to be, don’t you think you’re being just a tad condescending kippie? just enough to make it, mmm, glaringly evident?
    “up to now you haven’t accepted it as a source for the Jewish people.” — just what exactly are you implying by that?
    my guess is that you’re saying that i’ve said that i don’t think the torah’s a valid source on which we can base national aspirations. and, that’s still true. torah or not, israeli is the ancestral homeland of the jewish people. and it is on that fact that we can justify our presence here.
    but uh, as for argue what the torah says with people who use it to justify their injustices…that’s got nothing to do with beliving the torah is “real”. just with understanding what it actually says — be it the word of god or not.

  35. mobius, it’s time to take the chip off of your shoulder. I was sincerely trying to be nice to you. I believe you are on a journey to find the truth and I am along for the ride, bumpy as it may be.
    You write:
    “my guess is that you’re saying that i’ve said that i don’t think the torah’s a valid source on which we can base national aspirations. and, that’s still true. torah or not, israeli is the ancestral homeland of the jewish people. and it is on that fact that we can justify our presence here. ”
    If I remember your (mobius’) ancestral homeland is in Munkatch and various other places in Hungary/Czech/Poland. Nowhere do you say that your family is from Israel/palestine. If we can’t lay claim to Israel through the torah and you come from Hungary, then we have no business being in the middle east at all?? So if you say it is our ancestral home show me the documentation?? The only record all of the nation of Israel has is the torah – unchanged throughout every generation. (in fact if one letter of the torah is not complete it is unusable). In there is the proof you cited, but alas you say Yishmael has a claim to it.
    Me thinks you need to do a little more studying in depth your sources and less ponitificating on the social injustices meted out to the other side, until you understand your own side – every angle of it, not just your own.
    Don’t get me wrong, this is not a personal attack on you, you bring up legitimate questions that get me thinking, researching and discussing, but I think your unfairly categorizing a whole segment and thought process without giving it a fair shake. You’ve wrapped yourself in a “peace now” coccoon with your radio show, and your left leaning friends and websites but you dismiss anyone with a whiff of right wing leaning as a fanatic who doesn’t care about human rights. I personally might not agree with them either but I don’t dismiss them outright. open up your horizons and your mind.

  36. first of all in this season of rosh ha’shana I’m glad to see you are taking my remarks into consideration.
    secondly I’m not too impressed with the Dovid hamelech thing. Shlomo his son had 1,000 wifes, so chances are most people can trace their lineage to dovid hamelech. but if you insist on it good for you. btw dovid hamelech started his kingdom in Hebron so by that logic you should be looking for housing in Hebron?? 🙂
    you wrote
    “while the bible may serve as a guidebook to helping us understand the history of the region, i’m not going to deem it entirely factually accurate.”
    two questions:
    Because your depth of knowledge on the facts of the region?
    If you are looking as the bible as a guidebook to understanding the history of the region then maybe it has some relevance to the psychology of the region too? I have a hard time seeing anywhere in the Torah where any of the brothers (yaakov & eisav, Yitzhak & yishmael) getting along. in my humble opinion It has to do with the fundamental disagreement in theology and their respective outlooks on our purpose on this earth. care to comment – please do.
    have a good new year and peace on earth

  37. I’m continuously amazed at how otherwise reasonable humans turn to an artificial faith in documents sometimes exceeding 1000+ years and, worse, then attempt to impose similarly ancient constructs and solutions onto modern situations. Sometimes the lessons we learned in past encounters do not apply in present situations — sometimes new lessons occur.
    We’d don’t need no Gaza, despite what ancient Israelites thought regarding its ownership. Indeed, it turning into a moral necessity, a truly righteous act, to give it up — to forfeit our ancient ownership for the sake of a neighbor. The Palestinians ain’t goin nowhere, and either is Israel, so compromises should (and will) be made.
    I’m all for withdrawing behind the GreenLine. But, lo, if an infraction (read: terrorist action) happens within Israel proper, post-occupation, then yes, economic (first) responses will happen, and then (second) military — like destruction of infrastructure, capture of terrorist cells and/or civil leaders. But, not occupation.
    Anyone that thinks occupation, be it cultural or military, is a workable solution *now*, in 2004 (unlike in, say, 1978) then be prepared to lose far, far more than the territories — as will the Palestinians, in measures of nationhood and and any remnants domestic leadership. We might *both* lose cities that we *both* hold dear to your hearts. Imagine that. It can, and given current trends, probably shall, G-d forbid. But, that might be the judgment exacted for our mutual hate. Imagine.
    It’s time certain segments of our society see ourselves for what we’ve become as a culture: LandWorshipers with often hateful hearts towards our neighbors.
    [first] separation
    [second] re-engagement
    [third] re-unifaction
    It’s inevitable, and delays will only harm our respective national interests (for both Israeli and Palestini), in perhaps permanent ways.
    .rob adams

  38. Rob:
    I doubt that anyone is truly against the idea of peace. The question isn’t whether the left or right in the Jewish political stratus wants peace.
    The real question is if the Palestinians want peace. Or more specifically if they will accept peace with an entity that they regard as occupying all of their land.
    Much of the Palestinian population either through educational or religous training believe that ALL OF ISRAEL is occupied territory and will not be willing to reach a peaceful solution until there is no Israel.
    A truly peaceful solution to the situation has to include two side that want the same type of peace, and from my observation from afar, I don’t think that you have that on either side at this time. The Israeli/Jewish side hasn’t come to a solution that is acceptable to ‘everyone’ ( not that will ever be completely possible), and as I stated early I don’t believe that the Palestinians see a solution if any Israel as a country with a Jewish charater survives. One clear clue to this is the fact that all this time after the initial signing of the Oslo Accords the PLO/PA charter still has not been changed to reflect that they will accept Israel and continue to work for it to be destroyed. This is one of the first things that Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian team for the negociation agreed to. If they really wanted the same type of peace don’t you think some this simple and minor a change in philosophy would have taken care of by know.
    Your repeated use of the term LandWorshippers is a very loaded one. They are not ‘worshipping the land’ as your term would imply. They are following what they feel is the will of G-D. If you don’t wish to accept that the ‘1000+ year old’ documents are of devine origin or will, that is your business. But using you view of the documents to discredit the people who do accept the origin is disingenuous at best.
    My real interest is peace. Hopefull in a situation that will provide a safe and secure situation. I have my personal opinion on what would be needed to bring that about, but I don’t feel that is of any importance to this discussion. The real problem is that people on both sides of the political thought process amoung the Jewish people are locked in to single stream and are unwilling to look at anything but there own beliefs to the solution. I have yet to see a perfect solution, my fear with the disengagement plan is it won’t lead to re-engagement as you seem to think, but will lead to an increase in terrorism, as group like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Fatah branch Al Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade will see the withdrawl as a victory for them and it will encourage them. Also releasing the security of Gaza with out any assurance of a crackdown on the terrorist elements in that area will likely result in the same kind of arms build up that has occured in southern Lebanon after Israel pulled out and left the territory to security of Hezballah and the Syrian and Lebanese armies.
    I seem to have rambled here and for this I appologize.

  39. B”SD
    First of all, shalom.
    I think it is wrong to say that the so called “jewish settlers”(they are normel people who live in normal houses, have two eyes two eare etc… if that defines you as a “settler”, then I guess you got yourself 6 billion “settlers”) are extremist and dont have israel’s best interests in mind.
    Extremists in islam want the whole world to be muslim, and would settle for nothng less. If they had the power militarily they would use it to make the world judhinrein,christianrei n, peaceful peoplerien, etc…
    “Jewish settlers”; the ones called “extremist”, want to live in peace in a jewish Israel. (Sound’s like the dream of the jews for the past 2000 year’s). And this Israel could have arabs (i.e.non jews)in it. Of course only the ones that are loyal. (I think that’s commen sense) no country wants disloyal citizens (or loyal,but to the enemy).
    I would love continue but it is friday now and i got to prepare for the Shabbat so Shabbat Shalom! (Women and girls, dont forget to light those Shabbat candles, before Shabbat that is. (Shabbat comes in at 8:11 p.m.)

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