Gandhi’s grandson comes to Palestine
Ha’aretz reports that Arun Gandhi – the grandson of the leader of the Indian independence movement – is coming to Palestine to lead a new campaign for Palestinian independence using the Gandhian principles of non-violence. Full story at Ha’aretz. Click here to visit the M.K. Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence.
Sad to say but I really can’t see the Palestinians adopting Ghandi’s ways…
I hope this movement succeeds. The trouble is that it won’t be successful unless (1) it persuades the majority of Palestinian factions to adopt its methods; and (2) it adopts a reasonable negotiating position. Most Israelis will be inclined to sympathize with a nonviolent Palestinian movement, but they won’t accept its demands if those demands include the effective destruction of Israel or if Hamas is continuing to lob Qassams at Sderot. A broad-based, nonviolent Palestinian movement to end the occupation might and should succeed; a marginal movement whose demands include an unlimited right of return won’t and shouldn’t.
Jonathan Edelstein wrote:
“Most Israelis will be inclined to sympathize with a nonviolent Palestinian movement, but they won’t accept its demands if those demands include the effective destruction of Israel”
—
If those fucking Jew fanatics won’t tolerate the nonviolent destruction of Israel then we should just kill them all.
I am still amazed at the way Gandhi (nearly) unified ~100M Indians
It’s also worth noting that it was Palestinians who brought Arun Gandhi to the region
harry,
actually a lot of palestinians already have adopted non-violent resistance, especially against the fence, in local activities. sadly the IDF is crushing these demos and protests with violent means.
hogwash! what is “a lot of Palestinians”? There is no real solid non-violent movement. Im talking about en masse acceptance of non-violent resistance, not a couple dozen Palestinians rallying with ISM.
The Arabs have been fed too much Jew-hate and the PA/Hamas/Islamic Jiahd/Fatah have virtually killed all Palestinian left-wingers by first calling them ‘mashtapim’, and then shooting them in the head and dragging them through the streets.
But,
if there are still some closet left-wing Arabs left, then maybe this pacifist idea will catch on. Nonetheless, Ghandi will eventually accept the pointlessness of trying with them.
Isn’t it nice to have a government-controlled military against which to protest?
Can you imagine a non-violent protest against suicide bombers? I don’t think even M. Ghandi could figure that one out.
As much as Israelis might appreciate a non-violent Palestinian movement, it will have zero impact on the situation. Hamas already wields too much power and authority–they achieved that much through violence, so why would they stop?
So, I’m guessing there will be annoying non-violenters who will serve as human shields for Hamas terrorists and who will make a big fuss when the IDF moves in anyway. It’s really useless– let’s just finish the damn wall, get out of some settlements and try to get on with our lives best we can until the other side realizes how badly they’re screwing themselves.
Palestineans + Non-Voilence = Flying Pigs/Miracle
All else aside, I just get the feeling that this guuy is trading on grandpa’s name. With a bad haircut thrown in.
Its kind of like the poor slob who says that since he is the grandson of the rebbe……
meh.
But I would definitely like to see non violence adopted by the palistinians. About 90 years late, but better late than never.
Terry Boulata, one of the Palestinian organizers of Ghandi’s visit, expressed her hope that Ghandi would not condemn suicide bombing during his visit. She was quoted in a JPost article as saying:
“People are whispering about that [the need to stop suicide bombing]. There is no need to talk about it publicly”
But the security barrier is apparently a different story. Ghandi has claimed that “building a wall to separate people is the ultimate [expression] of violence and the culture of violence. It doesn’t bring about any solution, it only adds to the problem”
Sugar with your hypocrisy?
In fact, the barrier has brought about a damn fine solution– the dramtic reduction of Israeli civilians killed by terrorists.
“But I would definitely like to see non violence adopted by the palistinians. About 90 years late, but better late than never.”
hehe… at least you recognize their need for resistance.
What’s “Palestine”?
velvel… its what Israel was called by zionists (um actually – by everyone) before 1948.
duh!
Gandhi is spinning in his grave.
Asaf-
Incomplete. “Palestine” is what the region now occupied by Jordan and Israel was called until 1946 (most of it) and 1948, respectively. I’m sure the gentleman from Hindustan will have a good time there.
duh?-
Incomplete. “Palestine” is also what the Palestinian nationalists and their sympathizers use to refer to the West Bank and Gaza, as a way of attempting to concretize in speech their hope that those lands will soon form an independent state called Palestine.
The fact that many Palestinians also think of themselves as “in Palestine” when they travel to Haifa or Jaffa to look at their families’ old homes is a fact of our time that Zionism has to deal with instead of denying and decrying. Maybe there’s even something to be *learned* from it.
A.
Incomplete. “Palestine” is also what the Palestinian nationalists and their sympathizers use to refer to the West Bank and Gaza, as a way of attempting to concretize in speech their hope that those lands will soon form an independent state called Palestine.
B.
The fact that many Palestinians also think of themselves as “in Palestine” when they travel to Haifa or Jaffa to look at their families’ old homes is a fact of our time that Zionism has to deal with instead of denying and decrying. Maybe there’s even something to be *learned* from it.
It’s not clear how you got from A to B.
“Incomplete. “Palestine” is also what the Palestinian nationalists and their sympathizers use to refer to the West Bank and Gaza, as a way of attempting to concretize in speech their hope that those lands will soon form an independent state called Palestine.”
isnt that what zionists did too up until 1948? whats wrong with that?
Sam,
I agree that it’s necessary to recognize the fact that many Palestinians have asperations of exclusively controling all of what is now Israel and that they believe they have a right to do so under the banner of a new entity called “Palestine.” There’s no use denying that. Decrying? That’s a much bigger discussion, but for the present, I reserve my right to decry anyone’s belief that they have a right to dismantle Israel.
I submit for your approval the following parallel statement:
The fact that many Jews also think of themselves as “in Israel” when they travel to Hebron or Sh’chem (or Jerusalem, for that matter) to look at their families’ old homes is a fact of our time that the Palestinian movement (and the rest of the world) has to deal with instead of denying or decrying. Maybe there’s even something to be *learned* from it.
Heck, add Haifa to my list also.
I called up Mr. Gandhi’s Institute for Non Violence today, all set to give an earful to whatever person I got on the phone, Arun’s offensive remarks concerning Israel’s lack of “intelligence” or response to peaceful overtures. How hypocrytical to call for love and understanding, and then display such a bias for one faction of a conflict over another!
Well, as it turns out, when I called the Institute and told them what I thought, they put me right on the phone with Mr. Gandhi himself! He vehemently denied the way he was quoted in Ha’aretz, and said the journalist was antagonistic, and told him no one in Israel would listen or care about his work at all. He said that he does not have any bias towards either side, and just wants to work towards peace.
I was very impressed with Mr. Gandhi’s accessibility and candor, and do really hope that he’ll be able to bring some sense and compassion to both sides of this conflict. Certainly, there are ways that the Israelis can make the barrier more acceptable to the world community, and heck, if Gandhi can get the Palestinians to lay down their strap-on bombs and pick up some flowers, more power to him!
Okay, this doesn’t work as a parallel statement:
The fact that many Jews also think of themselves as “in Israel” when they travel to Hebron or Sh’chem (or Jerusalem, for that matter) to look at their families’ old homes is a fact of our time that the Palestinian movement (and the rest of the world) has to deal with instead of denying or decrying. Maybe there’s even something to be *learned* from it
The reason is that no settler who comes from Brooklyn to Hebron is looking at his family’s “old home.” In fact, no Ashkenazi who moves to Hebron is anywhere in the vicinity of his or her family’s “old home”. Unless you’re talking about, you know, Abraham. In my original construction, I was referring to Palestinians who are still alive today who actually remember living in their families’ ancestral homes in Haifa and Jaffa. So, not quite.
Still, let’s just compare the two perceptions: one, the Jewish perception of the boundaries of Eretz Israel, and two, the perception of some Palestinians of the boundaries of Palestine. I don’t think the comparison is that good. For starters, the Jewish perception of the borders of Eretz Yisrael does not recommend and demand much action, as evidenced by the fact that Jews for a couple thousand years had pretty much the same idea of these borders, and didn’t do anything about them. I may visit Jordan today and look at the landscape and think about the half-tribe staying east of the river, and what-not, but that doesn’t mean I want Israel to conquer Jordan. The Palestinian perception, on the other hand, is that their own land is being occupied by a foreign power, which implicitly calls for some kind of liberatory action. Now, of course, the question comes in as to the validity of the perceptions. Some say the Jewish perception is worthless because it stems from irrational religious impulses. Some say the Palestinian perception is worthless because it is stuck in the past, or even because it is somehow false and wrong (“you Palestinians aren’t really Palestinians, you shouldn’t be attached to your own land”, that sort of argument). This is up for further discussion.
Most Palestinians today still believe that Israel was unjustly established on Palestinian land, and most are also willing to trade 1948 for 1967, which is to say they want to recognize Israel in the part of “Palestine” that Israel is established, and declare Palestine in the part of “Palestine” that was conquered in 1967. I support referring to the West Bank and Gaza as “Palestine” so that this dream can come true. Because if it doesn’t, I believe we are in for many more years of war and hatred. I also have no problem saying something like “there is an enduring spiritual Jewish connection to Hebron, which is in the part of Eretz Yisrael that is today Palestine”. I would also love to be able to stop saying “Israel proper” and just say “Israel”…
Besides the fact that S’faradim are Jews to, there were plenty of Ashkenazim expelled from their homes in Hebron in 1929, 1936, and 1948. They were there as part of a Jewish community that had been there continuously for centuries. See . Unless you can justify some defined cutoff that puts the Jews of Hebron on one side and the Arabs who left Haifa on the other (for examples), you’ll have a very hard time convincing me that the latter are any less entitled to feel a right to their old homes than the former. I’m not talking about settlers from Brooklyn; I’m talking about original Palestinian Jews and their decendents (just as you’re presumably talking about original Palestinian Arabs and their decendents).
Your point about the Jewish perception of the borders of Eretz Yisrael is mistaken. Throughout the ages, there were Jews doing whatever they could to return to EY and reclaim it. The fact that relatively recent circumstances made it more possible to do more about it doesn’t mean that no one was trying until then. (The same cannot be said, for example, of the movement for Palestinian independence from occupiers of Gaza and the West Bank, which curiously didn’t exist between 1948 and 1967, despite the fact that there were plenty of rocks around to throw.)
(and if you’ll buy my argument about means, we’ll excuse the Palestinian independence movement in Hashemite-occupied Jordan, since they learned in Black September that there, the violent oppressors really mean business)
btw this whole ghandi thing reminds me – a while back i was on Erev Hadash with Dan Margalit because the 5 refuseniks wrote a letter to palestinians calling them to pursue non-violent resistance. i was speaking as a signee and representative. Zvulun orlev was interviewd just before me and he said that he doesnt care what a “bunch of pathetic loosers” write, while Dan Margalit was more interested in the fact that refusing is bad for the jews.
Sadly it seems that these people do not like the concept of non-violent resistance, whether it comes from the Israeli or the palestinian side.
of the five refuseniks sitting in jail got a letter for a palestinian teenager who said he was going to join the hamas but when he heard of the refusenik movement, he decided to work on reconciliation between palestinians and jews instead of joining the hamas. maybe non violent resistance does work.
he reason is that no settler who comes from Brooklyn to Hebron is looking at his family’s “old home.” In fact, no Ashkenazi who moves to Hebron is anywhere in the vicinity of his or her family’s “old home”. Unless you’re talking about, you know, Abraham. In my original construction, I was referring to Palestinians who are still alive today who actually remember living in their families’ ancestral homes in Haifa and Jaffa. So, not quite.
This would imply that, should Palestinians remain as a diaspora for a long enough period, they will no longer be entitled to think of Israel as their “old home”. To which I say: bosh.
(As for Palestinians still alive who actually remember living in their families’ “ancestral” homes in Haifa and Jaffa, those who aren’t dead are getting there pretty fast. It’s not a sustainable way of thinking about things — any more than it is sustainable to think of Ashkenazi Jews as, you know, past the expiration date.)
I also have no problem saying something like “there is an enduring spiritual Jewish connection to Hebron, which is in the part of Eretz Yisrael that is today Palestine”. I would also love to be able to stop saying “Israel proper” and just say “Israel”…
You may have to wait a very, very long time for that! The fact is that Eretz Yisrael, Medinat Yisrael, Dawlat ul-Filistini and al-Filasteen — or whaever — will all continue to exist in interlocking spaces for many years to come. Unless one is rabidly right-wing nut cases, the solution is certainly not to try and obliterate people’s collective memories. It is to recognise that political geographies are not the same as spiritual or historical ones.
There will always be places in Israel that are important to Palestinians, and always be places in Palestine that are important to israelis. That’s going to be part of the politics of the region, surely — how to ensure that democracies allow foreign pilgrims.
In 1890 there were 1,429 Jews living in Hebron, of whom 619 were Ashkenazim. In 1918 their number had fallen to 757, of whom 256 were Ashkenazim, and five years later there were only 413 Jews in the city, of whom a quarter (107) were Ashkenazim.
— Source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/467053.html
So, that answers that. I didn’t mean to imply that Sephardim weren’t Jews. Quite the opposite actually. I was talking about Palestinian Jews, who tended to be of Middle Eastern origin. Few Zionist settlers came to Hebron, which leads me to my next point — the “Old Yishuv” was not “reclaiming” anything. It was just living in Eretz Israel. It was the Zionist idea that it was necessary to reassert sovereignty over the whole land that led to the conflict, and the disturbances that took place.
And to 8opus — I agree with your points and also like your elegant phrasing about political and spiritual geographies. That’s precisely what i was trying to get at.
“harry,
actually a lot of palestinians already have adopted non-violent resistance, especially against the fence, in local activities. sadly the IDF is crushing these demos and protests with violent means”
BRAVO ASAF GOGO
pax