Has Zionism Hijacked Judaism?
At News From Babylon, author William Hughes speaks with Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss of Neturei Karta outside the White House where a coalition calling itself “Jews United Against Zionism” protested Ariel Sharon’s visit. Rabbi Weiss — who wore a sign which read “Authentic Rabbis Always Opposed Zionism and the State of Israel” — is quoted as saying:
“Sharon, who came today to speak with President Bush, is not the representative of Judaism or the Jewish people. In fact, he is the antitheses of what a representative of the Jews should be.”
Weiss continued:
“[Zionism] creates anti-Semitism. And we know that for close to 100 years already, Zionism is the root cause for the pain, suffering and bloodshed of the Jewish people, let alone who is talking about the Palestinian people and what has been going on in Palestine. And they, (the Zionists), are the greatest factory of anti-Semitism worldwide. So, that is what we are here for, to let the world know that Judaism and Zionism is not one and the same. They are diametrically opposite. And, we should not be mistaking one for the other. And, we shouldn’t be responsible for the actions of what the Zionists do.”
Neturei Karta has put out a press release regarding the protest action. Additionally, Hughes also includes a video containing interviews with other protesters.
ah mobius has done it again, posting the most fringe antiisraeli group in the world (they have about 5,000 members and are are shunned by virtually every other observant group in the world. of course the self hating mobius justifies this continued antiisraeli posting on the basis that he is just letting us all know the other side. mobius, between haaretz, the nytimes, npr, and abc/cbs/nbc, and the polysci departments of most of the universities of this country, we KNOW the anti israeli side. mobius, you claim not to be an anti semite, anti israeli, but if you walk like adam shapiro, and you talk like adam shapiro, then……………..
First of all, Mobius didn’t post it, I did.
Secondly while many religious Jews today support Zionism, it was not always so, as explained in the links within the article.
Thirdly: “Though Zionism proclaims itself a movement of a strong and proud people, in fact it is an ideology that has been brimming with self-hatred from the beginning. Indeed, early Zionists believed, as a key premise of the movement, that Jews were responsible for the oppression we had faced over the years, and that such oppression was inevitable and impossible to overcome, thus, the need for our own country.
Having never read the words of Theodore Herzl–the founder of modern Zionism–or other Zionist leaders, most will find this claim hard to believe. But before attacking me, perhaps they should ask who it was that said anti-Semitism, “is an understandable reaction to Jewish defects,” or that, “each country can only absorb a limited number of Jews, if she doesn’t want disorders in her stomach. Germany has already too many Jews.”
While one might be inclined to attribute either or both statements to Adolph Hitler, as they are surely worthy of his venomous pen, they are actually comments made by Herzl and Chaim Weizmann, eventual president of Israel, and–at the time he made the second statement–head of the World Zionist Organization. So in the pantheon of self-hating Jews, it appears criticism, for Zionists, should perhaps begin at home.”
These guys do nothing but eat, shit, study, and self-hate. Can they explain thousand years of anti-semitism before Zionism? Probably they will say Jews deserved it once again. The fact is that there is already a Jewish state, if you think it doesn’t exist by all means go fight with the mujahideen, but then again I consider jewschool a secret hamas website.
Israel not high on young U.S. Jews’ agenda
by Nathan Guttman, Ha’aretz
June 1, 2003
WASHINGTON – Young American Jews can no longer be expected to supply sweeping support for Israel nor to refrain from expressing criticism of it, according to a new study on their involvement in the Jewish community and their concern with Israel in particular.
The study, conducted by Frank Luntz, a leading Republican pollster who visited Israel recently, indicates that 80 percent of American Jews of university age have no connection to the life of the Jewish community or to Israel. In fact, their attitude toward Israel is closer to that of other Americans their age than to that of their parents.
They define themselves as “American Jews” with the emphasis on American, and do not automatically accept the Jewish community’s position of traditional support for Israel.”
…continues…
“The corruption of Judaism, as a religion of universal values, through its politicization by Zionism and by the replacement of dedication to Israel for dedication to God and the moral law, is what has alienated so many young Americans who, searching for spiritual meaning in life, have found little in the organized Jewish community.”
-Allan Brownfield, “Issues of the American Council for Judaism”, Spring 1997.
Doesn’t it bring a big smile to your face when you see the spectrum of opinion expressed by Jews worldwide? It’s easy to find a Jew that disagrees with Israel and Zionism. Much harder to find a Palestinian who disagrees with their movement and ideas. Tells me something about which group of people I prefer to support.
would someone, anytime, please explain to me the pathology of the anti semetic anti israeli member posters on this site. why do they publish every vile reference they may find regarding israel? why do they shit on their fellow jews living in israel? why does not the plight of 6 million jews, many living in poverty, all fearing the murder of their children by terrorists, not move their hearts at least a little? they must read the vile antisemetic output of the palestinians and other muslims, how do they not take this into account. im serious, what causes their pathology?
take a couple of deep breaths, Avi
Thank G-D for our diversity and discorse. It’s saved us many times in the past and it will again. Me? I’m a leftist-Zionist… you know the opinion everyone outside Israel likes to pretend doesn’t exist… Do I like what the anti-Zionist Jews say? No. But what bothers me MOST is when we don’t band together in a crisis. It’s one thing for us to disagree, but when push comes to shove, we need to have each other’s back. Case in point. Will you ever see me and a Betar-Tagar member just laughing about politics… probably not… in fact you’re more likely to see as brawling. But when push comes to shove, we have each other’s back. Should, G-D forbid, some anti-Semite burn down their office, I’d be the first to offer the Ken of Hashomer Hatzair to them while they got back on their feet.
Remember people, if we don’t support one another, who will?
Zionism doesn’t define Jews – it divides us
by Gabor Maté, Globe & Mail
Thursday, December 12, 2002 – Print Edition, Page A23
Given its horrific 20th-century connotations, anti-Semitism is a serious charge. It was levelled against critics of Israel on this page recently by three people who have demonstrated a strong lifelong commitment to humanitarian values. Lawyer Clayton Ruby, labour leader Jeff Rose and physician Philip Berger wrote that they feel “anti-Semitism has emerged as a powerful force” among some left-wing opponents of Israeli policy.
As a Jew and a former member of a Zionist youth movement, I understand the affinity the three writers have for Israel. I can also see why the blindly murderous attitudes and actions of some in the Palestinian resistance trigger a powerfully defensive emotional response in the Jewish community.
But the flaw in their argument is rooted in a confounding of Jewish identity with the Jewish state. They write of an “artificial distinction between Israel and Zionism, on one hand, and Jewish identity on the other.”
The modern identification of Jews and Israel emerged largely as a reaction to the Nazi genocide. Although it may represent the majority view today, it should be not taken for granted. Historically, it never has been. It is unlikely to persist.
…continues…
so just what are the browns and bablyonian above arguing, that muslims are entitled to muslim nations, that the brits are entitled to have a c of e country, but that the jews, who have faired so well in europe and the middle east through the centuries, are not entitled to their own state? ok mobius/babylonian/brown(adam)shapiro, youve convinced me, jews are dirty disgusting uncouth disreputable immoral louts who only mistreat arabs and engage in nefarious activities. just booting them out of israel isnt enough, let create concentration camps and then really get them…mobius/babylonian/brown/shapiro, you really do have a lot in common with hitler, you just havent quite the guts to go to the logical conclusion of your arguments….but you will.
Babylonian is the next in line to lead the Hamas, I’m pretty sure of it.
Rabbi Weiss is incorrect. Anti-semitism existed long before Zionism. Zionism was a response to anti-semitism, not vice cersa. It certainly is not the “root cause.”
I am done visiting this site. I am sick of your stupid ad hominem arguments and divisive postings. Goodbye.
Wait, did Anti-semitism exist before Zionism? Doesn’t sound like it.
firstly, i am not the weiss referred to in the article, yemach shemo. Secondly, babylonian is a sick self-hater, even if he’s not jewish. Finally, mo is really stuipid for providing a forum for the anti-jewish crowd. Accentuate the positive!!!
avi wrote :
” that muslims are entitled to muslim nations, that the brits are entitled to have a c of e country ”
I don’t support ethnic nationalism and bigotry for Muslims either, and never did
nice try
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Avi wrote: ” but that the jews, who have faired so well in europe and the middle east through the centuries, are not entitled to their own state? ”
As far as I’m concerned, the state of New York is the state of the Jewish people.
Israel is by far the most dangerous place to be a Jew in the entire world.
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Avi wrote:
” jews are dirty disgusting uncouth disreputable immoral louts who only mistreat arabs and engage in nefarious activities. ”
Avi this self-hating stuff is coming from your own mind, not mine. I said nothing of the sort.
Besides, my family (like most Jews) for instance never mistreated Arabs. We moved to America and bought or rented, fair and square
===========
Lou wrote:
” Babylonian is the next in line to lead the Hamas, I’m pretty sure of it. ”
I don’t think they let Jews lead Hamas
========================
(the other) Yisroel Dovid wrote:
” Secondly, babylonian is a sick self-hater, even if he’s not jewish. ”
I like how you fling insults, and then say “Accentuate the positive”
I’m as Jewish as you or anyone else, thanks..
“I’m as Jewish as you or anyone else, thanks..”
i am still confused by this…what does being jewish mean if the religious aspects play no role.
(referring to you defining yourself as a secular jew a while back)
A Jew is a person of Jewish descent or any person who declares himself or herself to be a Jew and who identifies with the history, culture, ethical values, civilization, community and fate of the Jewish people
Halachically, according to Orthodoxy, someone born of a Jewish mother always remains a Jew whether practicing or not
meant to ask…why/what about it is important to you..
To me, what is important is the Jewish tradition of dedication to social justice. I think people like Emma Goldman and Uri Avnery are heroes. Is this relevant though?
Zionism has “hijacked” *Orthodox* Judaism. Thank God, I’m not Orthodox.
Babylonian,
Is it social justice to advocate another peoples’ national rights at the expense of our own?
i am just trying to understand where you are coming from thats all…judging from your posts, we probably disagree with just about everything to do with israel…and the fact that you don’t believe in judaism but know the word halacha – and a good amount about israel – i am guessing you are rebelling against something for some reason…figured i would just try to figure out why you feel the way you do. more interesting than yelling the same old shit back and forth…sometimes anyway..
Zionista wrote: “[i]Is it social justice to advocate another peoples’ national rights at the expense of our own?[/i]”
I don’t advocate ethnic nationalism for anyone. I think everyone should mix together. I’ve also not advocated any reduction in “our own” rights. I’m American, not Israeli. I haven’t even advocated any reduction in Israel’s rights. I deny that anyone anywhere has a right to an ethnic majority.
Saudi Arabia is even worse than Israel. But who am I as a Jew to criticize them. Saudis would tell me ‘people who live in glass houses should not throw stones’ if I criticized their horrible ethnic nationalism. And they would be right. We need to get our house in order.
================
Schneider wrote: ” i am guessing you are rebelling against something for some reason “
Sorry if I sounded unfriendly. I just was thinking you wanted to ask about me in order to switch the focus to me rather than the topic.
So, yeah – rebelling. Rebelling agaginst perceived injustice, especially when being done in my name.
Personally I think it’s beneficial for the entire Jewish people for individual Jews to stand up, in the face of and speak out against injustice committed by the Israeli government.
How is it self-hating for one to want one’s own people to be righteous ?
“I really can’t say anything harsh about any other peoples, I can only say harsh about my own.” R Shlomo Carlebach (paraphrased, maybe even a little misquoted)
Babylonian,
You and I as Americans are a little jaded. While we have been fortunate enough to have come to life in a nation rooted in Enlightenment rationalist ideals, rather than on any particular ethnic continuity, the rest of the world remains effectively divided along ethnic lines. It’s not right or wrong, it’s just the way it is. Roma, Tibetans, Kurds — without successfully asserting national rights, peoples condemned to statelessness are existentially vulnerable. Unfortunately, “Six Million” has become such a slogan that the meaning behind the number has lost alot of its historical impact. Despite our own long-sustained government-in-exile we lost 2/3 of the Euro-Jewish community in under a decade. There are many complicated lessons in that history.
Jews have only one historic homeland, and not many options. In the Middle East, anarchist philosophy is too easy an answer when our adversaries insist that one Jewish state is too many and 22 Arab states are not enough.
In a way, I’m glad you posted the comments by Rabbi Weiss of Neturei Karta. Let thim and his group get exposed for what they are. I trust that y’all are familiar with Rabbi Weiss’ friendly, loving ties with that great tzaddik, Rev. Louis Farrakhan, and his holy convocation, the Nation of Islam. Now THAT’S an alliance that boggles my mind.
Me, I’d rather support the Lubavitchers. While it is true that they don’t subscribe to the tenets of secular Zionism, their love and support of Jews in Israel is exemplary. They’ve risked their lives to do Jewish outreach to the IDF, enabling them to celebrate the holidays properly, and have established communities in Israel. Once they make aliyah, they stay there. When I visit Israel (as I hope to), I’ll know where I can stay.
Babylonian, I am gonna start right off by saying that I don’t intend to attack you. Nor do I care to understand you, since your theories are not unique, but standrad issue socialist/anarchist ideas. BTW, why did you pick a nick like Babylonian? That’s a nationality… Cosmopolitan might work better. A little about myself, I grew up in the Soviet Union, where theoritically, what you were talking about, an ethnic majority was a thing of the past. However, we all know what happened to that country, and what misery, death and destruction are still being visited on the people in that region in its wake. Many extreme leftists claim that the Soviet system was a perversion of communism. Some even blaim the Jews for it. However, I propose that Soviet Union was a perfect example of extreme left perverted by the power, and not having the pragmatism of the synics to keep them in check. On the case of Israel, you are perfectly correct when you say that the policies of the Israeli government are disturbing, some of them clearly are. Such as for instance holding people under administrative detention for lengthy periods of time without charging them. A lot of those people are Jewish right wing extremists, such as Noam Federman. So far not a single humanitarian organization demanded his release, or access to him.
Earlier you stated that you think Saudi Arabia is a lot worse then Israel, but you won’t comment on it, since you fear being told look at your own house. That seems analogous to seeing a man beat his wife and kids, and not interfering, because you sometimes yell at your girlfriend, and feel that you’re not beyond scrutiny.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with nationalism as long as it does not infringe on other peoples rights. That is hard to achieve, and Zionism has a long way to go before it gets there, but that process will not start while arabs threaten to eradicate not only our ideology, but our very being as well. You might find those threats laughable, living as you do, in the United States, a country that is capable and WILLING to protect you, no matter what religion you practice or shun. I had the misfortune of living in a country where begin Jewish was a sin, and Original Sin, one I could never be absoved off, no matter how I tried. When the time case, and local muslims were tired of the Russian occupation, they first turned on the Jews, as the occupiers. Soviet Union didn’t find it wise or useful to protect the population, in fact, shortly before the riots and ethnic cleansing started, they ordered all hunting and sporting weapons collected from the general population. We were left defenceless. I hope you can see how my firm, unshakeable beleif in the necessity of a Jewish state is formed.
On the issue of Palestinian Refugees, I know you might imagine people in complete and utter misery. And it’s convenient to blame Zionists for that. Convenient because that’s what the whole world is telling you to think, and you might be tired of making up your own mind. But, have you ever wondered why there are a million (15-20% of population) Arabs living in Israel, and how come they are not in a hurry to leave. They were not massacered by Israeli troops before, during or after any war. They are generally not bothered by the police despite a surge of recent identification with Palestinians. However, in neighboring countries, Palestinians are reduced to a lower level then animals. In Lebanon they cannot own property, or receive an education for instance. Almost every Jew who lives in America is a decsendent of refugees. Do you hear about that all day long? Ever wonder why? What makes Palestinians so unpalatable? I’ll tell you what. They are userful in their miserable state. A happy Palestinians doesn’t want to blow anything up, has no will to fight. Like anyone else, he/she lives, works and hopes to raise his kids. But you make him miserable, and you have a wonderful tool, a weapon used to fight agains whatever if fationable at the time: Colonization, Occupation, Westernization, Democratization, etc.
Before we can all be brothers, we must all be free. And while I think there are many things where Israel can, and must improve, I think, as someone who’s preoccupied with social justice, you must speak up against all transgrassion on freedom and opportunity, and don’t worry about your glass house, it’s not that fragile.
Alex
P.S. Sorry for making this so long, just had a lot to say, and honestly, Babylonian, I think you’ll outgrow this stage relatively soon.
Alex wrote: “BTW, why did you pick a nick like Babylonian? That’s a nationality… Cosmopolitan might work better. “
Actually it has nothing to do with nationality and everything to do with Reggae music
“Earlier you stated that you think Saudi Arabia is a lot worse then Israel, but you won’t comment on it, since you fear being told look at your own house.”
no I will comment on it, that’s how you know what I said
I said in essence that I wouldn’t get in their face over bigotry as long as my people are guilty of the same. I would work to fix my own problems and then help others with theirs.
“There is absolutely nothing wrong with nationalism as long as it does not infringe on other peoples rights.”
I respectfully disagree. I think nationalism is at best divisive and prevents proper respect and cooperation between nations.
“I hope you can see how my firm, unshakeable beleif in the necessity of a Jewish state is formed.”
See, I understand all the premises, and I agree that what you described is terrible. Where you lose me is when you conclude that the solution to having suffered at the hands of Russian ethnic nationalists is to set up a Jewish ethnic nationalist state.
“But, have you ever wondered why there are a million (15-20% of population) Arabs living in Israel, and how come they are not in a hurry to leave.”
not really. Most of the Palestinians do not seem to want to leave.
“Before we can all be brothers, we must all be free.”
now you’re talking !
“I think, as someone who’s preoccupied with social justice, you must speak up against all transgrassion on freedom and opportunity, and don’t worry about your glass house, it’s not that fragile”
So you think it would be OK for a Wahabi Muslim to come to America and complain about how women in America make only $0.75 for each dollar a man makes in the same type of job?
I have a strong aversion to hypocrisy.
“P.S. Sorry for making this so long, just had a lot to say”
Don’t be sorry, I thank you
“and honestly, Babylonian, I think you’ll outgrow this stage relatively soon.”
Somehow I doubt it.. I’m no kid
All the Islamic Radicals I’ve talked to believe Israel is a White colony on Islamic land. They feel that only when Israel is off Islamic land will there be peace. Also, the Koran says that all Muslims must kill all non-Muslims who live next to them. So this way, the world is Islamic. If you gave the Muslims Germany, they must attack Holland because Holland is not Islamic.
I think those anti-Zionist Jews have every right to speak against Israel as a European colony, BUT only so far as Israel’s people of European decent are concerned. Sadly, this group – with their solely religious agenda – align themselves with enemies of Israel, while ignoring the simple fact that they do not speak for me, whose family is indigenous to the Middle East. Israel’s creation as a state, other than the Arabs would assisted invading parties, is guilty of uprooting Arabs on their land. On the same token, a dozen newly founded Islamic countries, are guilty of uprooting almost 1 million Jews. Thus, one can not ignore that a population exchange occurred. And those Jews of the Middle East, uprooted and robbed by billions from a dozen new Islamic states, have every right for a state just as the Palestinians and Kurdish do. Lastly, that does not mean European Jews should not be able to live here. Israel is free to invite who she wishes, especially post-holocaust brothers and sisters. So, the only argument against Israel being Israel, is that its “guests” built the house [via Europe] its [Middle Eastern] brothers have the deed for.
I never make religious arguments for Israel. She exists with every Earthly right every other nation has. So too, should religious arguments not worry Israelis. Keep your cults to yourself, thankyouverymuch.
http://www.jimena-justice.org/
cc, outside of being coincodently Arab, how do Palestinians who might want to return to their one-time homeland come to bear the resposibility for the acts of foreign governments in your equation of population exchange?
The thing is… people use the concepts “Israel’s right to exist” and “Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state” as if they are interchangable