Uncategorized

Hebrew U's Leading Anti-Zionist

israelinsider profiles (without any compunctions about abandoning journalistic objectivity) Professor Baruch Kimmerling, of Hebrew U.

Baruch Kimmerling, a sociologist at the Hebrew University, has long been identified as one of the leading figures in the “post-Zionist” movement, better called the anti-Zionist movement – a trendy, small group of tenured far Leftists, including Ilan Pappe, Avi Shlaim, Oren Yiftachel, Uri Bar-Joseph, and until recently, Benny Morris). Kimmerling has gone so far as to endorse Palestinian terrorism against right-wing Israelis and more broadly against Israelis in general. He has also openly endorsed the use of violence.
Two books by Kimmerling appeared in 2003, one of them with a co-author, and both are getting plenty of attention. They have been widely reviewed, especially by magazines and web sites that are hostile to Israel, and have been produced in Arabic in the West Bank. Even Foreign Affairs gave sympathetic reviews to both these books.

Full story.

21 thoughts on “Hebrew U's Leading Anti-Zionist

  1. They don’t even attempt to do a fair reading of Kimmerling’s book. He doesn’t say that the participation of the local sheikhs in the rebellion against Mohammed Ali makes the Palestinians a nation. He says that it’s one of the factors that draws certain people together politically and economically so that they can later become one. And it’s quite well supported by most other history of this period.

  2. Oh God, and they cite Joan Peters! All this business about migration of Arabs coinciding with the migration of Jews has been completely discredited time and time again. There was migration from “heartland” Palestine (the West Bank) to the coastal regions, followed most often by returning migrations eastwards, and THAT’S IT. It’s amazing what lengths some people will go to in an attempt to justify themselves to themselves…

  3. You say:
    All this business about migration of Arabs coinciding with the migration of Jews has been completely discredited time and time again
    It hasn’t been discredited by any credible sourses, unless you consider Norman Finkelstein and his likes credible. The fact is that Eretz Yisrael was completely empty before the Zionist rebirth. Mark Twain travelled to Eretz Yisrael in 1867, and here’s what he had to say in his book “The Innocents Abroad”:
    “A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent mournful expanse…. a desolation…. we never saw a human being on the whole route…. hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”
    Many other travellers recounted similar experiences.
    It is about time the whole world acknowledged that Eretz Yisrael belongs to Jews and only Jews. Unfortunately, it is unlikely to happen in the current political climate. But, at least, we as Jews need to acknowledge this simple fact. And we need to stop worrying about a so called palestinian people that the arabs themselves admit never existed:
    “Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian
    identity serves only tactical purposes. The
    founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool
    in the continuing battle against Israel …”
    — Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head
    of the PLO and member of its Executive
    Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977

  4. That’s a load of revisionist crap SY. Get your shit together– if you want to argue that Jews deserve to be in Israel (which they do), you need to do it from a historically accurate and informed perspective. Otherwise you will never be taken seriously, and you will hinder the cause of Zionism greatly.
    The land was not as populated in 1867 as it was in 1947, but there were certainly both Arabs and Jews living there. Saying it was “uninhabited” is a transparent rhetorical device, and it only inflames those who seek to argue against the establishment of a modern Jewish homeland.

  5. Are you implying that Mark Twain and other sourses are Zionist revisionists? As far as I know Zionism did not exist as a political movement in 1867. When I say completely empty, I mean it was completely devoid of any national life. I am sorry I did not express myself clearly the first time. There were Jews, Christians, Turkish muslims and gangs of Arab marauders in Eretz Yisrael before Zionism. I don’t see how my perspective is not historically accurate and informed. You failed to offer yours.
    You say:
    Saying it was “uninhabited” is a transparent rhetorical device, and it only inflames those who seek to argue against the establishment of a modern Jewish homeland.
    My target audience in this case are the Jewish guilt mongers and other creatures of the night who run this blog and post the most ridiculous anti-semitic accusations against Israel and the Jewish people.

  6. Sigh. Okay, so Mark Twain, in that one paragraph, found Palestine unbeautiful. I can’t believe anyone still makes these arguments.
    The Zionist immigration began in earnest in 1881. In that year there were about 457,000 people there. That’s not a lot of people — but 400,000 of those people were Muslim Arabs. A little over 42,000 of them were Christians, and between 13,000 and 20,000 were Jews. OK? Those are the facts we have. Deal with it.

  7. Oh, and lest we forget. Here’s Ahad Ha’am in 1891, barely 10 years into the first aliyah:
    “We abroad are used to believing that Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed . . . But in truth this is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains . . . are not cultivated.”
    Oh, and “national community” or no, Ahad Ha’Am also noted then that “If a time comes when our people in Palestine develop so that, in small or great measure, they push out the native inhabitants, these will not give up their place easily.”
    Even your revisionist godfather Jabotinsky knew this much. Stop deadening your mind with propaganda.

  8. SY: are you serious? the only arabs living in palestine circa 1867 were “gangs of arab marauders?” you need to learn to make a pro-zionist argument without distorting historical fact in such clearly absurd ways. otherwise your remarks are totally useless.

  9. “Sigh. Okay, so Mark Twain, in that one paragraph, found Palestine unbeautiful. I can’t believe anyone still makes these arguments.”
    Sam,
    Were you in Palestine in the mid to late 18th century? i wasn’t. So I amass as much information as I can to help me understand the current situation. And yes, I use Mark Twain’s observation to debunk the caca that spews out of the mouths of “anti-Zionists” and looney lefties. Actually, I agree with you, I can’t believe anyone still makes these arguements…but usually I’m refering to quotes like this:
    “I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya,” said Abdullah, a Bahraini scholar commenting on the situation in Beslan.

  10. So you’re using this “Bahraini scholar” as your standard of objectivity? I’d say you’re right; the whole “Palestine was empty” thing looks just about as bad as that guy’s nonsense.

  11. Sam says:
    “In that year there were about 457,000 people there. That’s not a lot of people — but 400,000 of those people were Muslim Arabs. A little over 42,000 of them were Christians, and between 13,000 and 20,000 were Jews. OK? Those are the facts we have. Deal with it.”
    1) What is the source for this?
    2) What does “there” include? Today’s Israel only, the West Bank, today’s Jordan (which was then considered Palestine)?

  12. 1) My source for those population statistics is Benny Morris’ “Righteous Victims”. His source for them was Justin McCarthy, “The Population of Palestine: Population History and Statistics of the Late Ottoman Period and the Mandate.” New York: Columbia University Press, 1990. Corroborating those statistics is Alexander Scholch, “Palestine in Transformation 1856-1882: Studies in Social, Economic and Political Development.” Washington, D.C.: Institute for Palestinian Studies, 1993.
    2) The numbers are for today’s Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip. And you are slightly incorrect that today’s Jordan was then considered Palestine. While parts of the area now known as Jordan have always been remembered by Jews as part of Eretz Israel, the area at the time (mid-to-late 19th century) was, if recognized as a distinct district at all, only seen as an Ottoman administrative province.

  13. Benny Morris is a revisionist historian who changes his views according to the current political fashion. The area refered to as “Palestine” was indeed, not only Israel and the “West bank” (Western Palestine), but also Jordan and parts of Syria and Lebanon (Eastern Palestine). I don’t belive that the left leaning academics would ever provide us with accurate statistics on the population of what was then called Palestine. According to a Turkish poll of 1905 there were NO Arabs living in Jerusalem at that time.
    Sam says:
    Sigh. Okay, so Mark Twain, in that one paragraph, found Palestine unbeautiful. I can’t believe anyone still makes these arguments.
    Not only did he find it “unbeautiful” he found it almost completely desolate. You might want to read the quote again.
    I’d like to see the sourse of the Ahad Ha’am’s quote, because if it is counterpunch or some other leftist rag, I would find it difficult to believe. If this quote is real, it would also be helpful to find out in what context it was said.
    And about “national community” What kind of goverment did “palestinians” have before Zionism? Was it a monarchy? Was it a democracy? (Arab democracy, yeah right) Can you name any recognized leaders of this ficticious nation? Did they have their own currency? What about world renowned “palestinian” musicians, artists, scientists etc?
    The only propoganda I see is the ridiculous assumption that Arabs have ANY right to our Eretz Yisrael. If you the other quote I posted at the beggining about the purpose of the existance of the separate palestinian identity, I don’t see how you can still argue that Arabs have any national rights to Eretz Yisrael.

  14. I took your quote for granted as true, even though you probably got it out of Mitchell Bard’s “Myths and Facts” or some other right-wing crap book. Actually, oh wait — it’s also in the Benny Morris book, which while you may disagree with the author’s facts (even though he has now been shown to be on your side politically), is generally recognized by historians as a sound work which does not contain any blatant factual errors.
    Furthermore, I sourced his sources, precisely because I knew some dumbass would ignore the entire post by ranting about Benny Morris. Got any rants about those?
    Ahad Ha’Am’s quote can be found in almost any *reliable* history of the conflict. For example, I checked the first book I had that I thought you’d be more sympathetic to, Leslie Stein’s “The Hope Fulfilled: The Rise of Modern Israel.” Yep, it was in there on page 45. The quote is taken from an 1891 report he wrote called “Truth From Eretz Israel” and you’d do well to read it; clearly, the propaganda machine you live inside of has hidden a lot of Zionist history from you. Of course, you probably didn’t learn a lot about Ahad Ha’Am, since he believed the Jews should “respect only the power of the spirit and not to worship material power.” I’ve noticed a lot of settler-types having problems with this.
    Your questions about the Palestinian nation also border on moronic. I bet you can’t name any world renowned Angolan musicians, artists, or scientists either. This is because you are probably a Westerner who received a Eurocentric education. Let’s spell this out: before Zionism, Palestinians lived under the Ottoman empire. Around the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, Arab nationalism began developing, mostly in response to events in Turkey like the Young Turk Rebellion. Palestinians were swept up in this for a time, before eventually realizing they had separate and distinct interests from, say, Egyptians, or Syrians, and the separate Palestinian national movement was born. By 1911 there was a newspaper called Falastin. It’s really amazing the lengths people like you will go to in order to convince yourselves that people have no right to live in the land that they were born in, and that their ancestors also lived in. I believe in the right of Jews to live in Eretz Israel, but you have gone totally overboard in the denial of the concomitant Palestinian right to the land. That’s what this conflict has always been about and it is people like you who will ensure it goes on for a long time.
    And finally, I would love love love to see your source about the “Turkish poll of 1905”. That’s the biggest bullshit I’ve ever heard.

  15. Sam,
    Let’s start with the Turkish Poll. According to the Catholic encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08364a.htm “The total population is estimated at 66,000. The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures: Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly half the present population” The 8,000 moslems that inhabited Jerusalem were Turkish citizens responsible for administration of “palestine”. Most Arab christians are Catholic, and, and according to the census, there were only 50 of them in Jerusalem. And those Christians (Maronites) don’t even consider themselves Arab, they claim to be descendants of Phoenicians. Most Christians that lived in Jerusalem were RUSSIAN Orthodox Christians, who have absolutely nothing to do with the delightful people who declared themselves to be palestinians. It should not be surprising to anyone that there were no arabs in Jerusalem, because Arabs in “palestine” were for the most part nomadic people who simply didn’t have the skills needed to live in the cities. Calling these well known facts ” the biggest bullshit you’ve ever heard” demonstrates your total lack of credibility in the matter.
    You say:
    Your questions about the Palestinian nation also border on moronic. I bet you can’t name any world renowned Angolan musicians, artists, or scientists either. This is because you are probably a Westerner who received a Eurocentric education.
    We were debating whether there was any national life in “palestine”. Yes, indeed, there was a rise in Arab nationalism all over the arab world, however, there is not ample evidence that there ever was Arab PALESTINIAN nationalism before the 1960s. In fact most Arabs in “Palestine” considered themselves Syrians:
    In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine:
    “There is no such country [as Palestine]! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.”
    “There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not”
    — Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to
    Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946
    “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria.”
    — Delegate of Saudi Arabia to the
    United Nations Security Council, 1956,
    The only people who considered themselves palestinians before 1948 were in fact the Jews. Now, if you insist that there was a palestinian national identity/life, then you have to present at least SOME evidence that it did indeed exist. The only thing you could’ve come up with is some newspaper called “Falastin”. We have the New York Times, does it mean that there is a New York national identity? Your “proof” is simply laughable, if this is the best you can come up with, no wonder you’re resorting to insults.
    You say:
    clearly, the propaganda machine you live inside of has hidden a lot of Zionist history from you.
    The best example of propaganda machine is the myth of the palestinian nation and all the related anti-zionist nonsense that you have swallowed.
    As for Ahad Ha’am’s quote, it seems to be one man’s misrepresentation of facts, because there are plenty of testimonies that clearly show that palestine was not inhabited for the most part. And Ahad Ha’am himself certainly never refers to any arab palestinian nation.
    And about Benny Morris, like I said, he changes his views when it suits him… The man is totally unreliable. He starts off his book by describing “palestine”. According to him, palestine was what is today Israel and the “occupied territories”, which is a blatant misrepresentation of reality. Pick up any old map, and you will see that “Palestine” included not just Israel, but all of Jordan, and parts of Syria and Lebanon. The entire book is full of falsehoods and outright lies. It is no suprise, that most academics are in love with this book, since they tend to be viruently anti-Israel.

  16. One more thing
    You say:
    I believe in the right of Jews to live in Eretz Israel, but you have gone totally overboard in the denial of the concomitant Palestinian right to the land. That’s what this conflict has always been about and it is people like you who will ensure it goes on for a long time.
    Let me say it again, the Arabs have absolutely no right to ANY part of Eretz Yisrael. Their whole claim is based on a fictitious nation, whose existence has absolutely no connection to reality. The conflict has never been about people like me or anyone on the Jewish side. If anyone is looking through the Eurocentric prism, it is you because you lack the most basic understanding of Muslim Arab culture and the nature of the war Israel (and much of the world) is fighting. This conflict is only about cold-blooded, ritualistic murder of Jews designed to subjugate the Jewish nation at best, and perpetrate another holocaust at worst (by the way it is very similar to what we see in many other parts of the world, i.e. the Russian School hostage crisis, Iraq beheadings and tons of other examples). The myth of the Palestinian nation is used as a smokescreen to justify the unjustifiable acts of murder in the eyes of the world, and it seems to be working very well on people like you who only see the world through western eyes.
    The only way for this conflict to end is for Israel to achieve a total and unconditional victory over the Arab enemy, which would be very similar to the victory of the allies over Nazi Germany. Unless the Arabs and other culturally similar Muslim nations are crushed the way Germany was in 1945, the entire world, let alone Israel will know no peace.
    This is the unfortunate reality we are living in, and denying it will only cause a greater disaster in the future and enormous suffering on both sides.

  17. Ah. In responding to your previous post, I assumed you were trying to say that your Turkish poll showed that Jews were the only people living in Jerusalem. The fact of a Jewish majority in Jerusalem dating to the mid-19th century is not something I need to deny. The fact of an extreme Jewish minority in the entire region, apparently, *is* something that *you* need to deny, seeing as how you ignored my statistics, which I corroborated using three non-Benny Morris sources, and instead ranted incoherently about Benny Morris. I notice, as well, that the Turkish poll does not make your outlandish claim about the 8,000 Muslims not being Arabs. If you could souce that claim, that would be great. And if you could source the claim about the 8,000 Orthodox Christians being Russian, that would also be great. Because I happen to know that you are wrong. The Jerusalem Arab notable families (Husseini, Nashashibi, Khalidi) date back to well before 1905, and they also lived there during that period. So at the very least, you have failed to account for them, and beyond them you have failed to account for — oh. All the other Arabs.
    As for the allegation that most of the population of Palestine didn’t “have the skills to live in the cities”, I don’t understand what you’re trying to claim. That farming is an unskilled profession? That Arabs didn’t have the skills to work in new cities set up by Zionists who only wanted to employ Jewish labor? That Jaffa and Haifa did not, in fact, have large Arab populations? Really, what is it that you’re trying to get at? And Jerusalem is just about the worst city you could have chosen as the occasion for your claim, given its status for most of the early years of Zionism and before as a total welfare case. Money for the Old Yishuv flowed from the rest of Jewry; they ate it up and studied. Skills?
    Second claim: “there is not ample evidence that there ever was Arab Palestinian nationalism before the 1960’s.” oh, and “most Arabs in Palestine considered themselves Syrians.” This is a common argumentative tactic that just doesn’t hold water when you get to the bottom of it. Your idea of the Palestinian nation as “fictitious” is necessary, I suppose, for you to maintain your extreme claims about Jewish rights to the land. But you’re being silly. The fact that there was dissent and disagreement between different Palestinians about who they were, and who they should consider themselves, does not mean they had no rights to the land. Maybe you can’t understand this, but the right to the land came from being born on it and living on it for many years, not from having a nationalism that would need to have pre-dated Zionism. You don’t get to kick someone out of their house because they don’t identify with a nation of people. Palestinian nationalism developed as a way of claiming the land after previous ways of trying to assert counter-claims to Zionism failed. So far, Palestinian nationalism has been the most successful, but there’s no reason it should have had to develop if the indigenous people hadn’t felt a threat to their existence on the land and a need for a way to defend their right to live there.
    Beyond that though, you’re wrong anyway. Many of them did identify as a nation, at least as part of the Arab nation. A prominent example is the Muslim-Christian Associations of the 1920s, which united Arab Palestinians of different religions against Zionism and proclaimed the distinction between the Arabs of Palestine and those of other regions. I am not claiming that the Palestinian identity was a deep, driving force at this time, or denying that its later development was a result of the vicissitudes of their history and being cut off from other Arabs, but how else could you expect things to develop for a people living in a region to which nationalism was completely foreign until the very late 19th century (for most of the history of the region, people identified foremost with their religion, then with their local cities and the regions around them)? First they learned to identify as Arabs, then as Palestinians. But that’s really — really — not the point.
    Here’s Yitzhak Epstein, a Jew born in Palestine in 1862, on the “Arab question” in 1896: “[Athough] there is no Arab movement in the national or political sense in Palestine [remember, we’re in 1896 now — s.] . . . among the difficult questions connected to the idea of the renaissance of our people on its soil there is one which is equal to all others: the question of our relations with the Arabs . . . We have forgotten one small matter: There is in our beloved land an entire nation, which has occupied it for hundreds of years and has never thought to leave it. . . We are making a great psychological error with regard to a great, assertive and jealous people. . . The Arab, like every man, is tied to his native land with strong bonds.”
    This is where things like “rights to land” come from, SY. If you want evidence that some of those Arabs involved in the nationalist movement preferred a Palestinian identity separate from the Syrian, I can provide that for you. But it doesn’t matter. If you want me to provide more quotes corroborating Ahad Ha’Am’s account of the widespread nature of Arab agriculture, I can do that too. I have a feeling that would disturb you even more.
    Finally, your attempt to say that I am Eurocentric because I don’t share your entire idee fixe about “Muslim Arab culture” is nothing short of laughable. You took a Western idea of Arab culture and imposed it on what certain extremists are doing. You know next to nothing about Arab culture, and probably next to nothing about Islam. I wonder if you even know any Arabs or Muslims personally. Everything that you do know comes from alarmist, western writing about what’s going on there. You are the one who is fooling himself.

  18. Interesting Debate
    Sam & Yahudi, you have both made some valid points & you have both have also quoted some
    baseless propaganda. Overall, Yahudi has scored more points when it comes to historically
    accurate information. I would like to make the following comments:
    #1. Baruch Kimmerling is a radical leftist propagandist whose works have been discredited by
    many credible sources. One need not be an expert on the Israeli-Arab conflict to see that
    the man is a liar and that he goes out of his way to twist, distort & even make up facts,
    while ignoring other facts that contradict his bankrupt ideology. Kimmerling could certainly
    use a few lessons from people like Chomsky. Chomsky is also a leftist propagandist, but his
    propaganda is much more convincing, his distortions much more obscure & ambiguous & his
    arguments are far more intellectual in nature. Kimmerling simply rants & appeals to the
    readers’ emotions, not reason.
    #2. There definitely was a MASSIVE Arab migration into Palestine in the period following the
    first aliyah. Exact numbers are highly debatable, but even according to the most
    conservative estimates, by 1948 at least 1/3 of the Arab population of (western) Palestine
    consisted of post-first aliyah migrants & their descendants. Sam is wrong on this one.
    #3. Eretz Yisrael was clearly NOT empty before Zionism. Slogans like “A people without a
    land for a land without a people” were ignorant or designed purely for propaganda purposes.
    Herzl himself acknowledged the fact that there were Arabs & other groups living in
    Palestine. His famous novel “Altneuland”, envisions a utopian society where Arabs are equal
    partners with Jews, and enjoy equal rights. In his novel, one of Israel’s leaders is a
    Muslim. Most Socialist Zionists had a similar vision of a utopian society – Jew & Arab
    living together side by side & working together. Perhaps those ideas were naive. But the
    point is the existence of Arabs in Palestine was not ignored by mainstream Zionism. Here I
    have to agree with Sam. There were many Arabs in Palestine at the time of the first aliyah.
    #4. However, Sam’s population figures for 1881 are way off. Sam, you have inflated the
    number of Arabs living in Palestine by at least 100,000. Also, the number of Jews was
    probably higher than you claim. The actual Jewish population of this period was likely
    between 20 and 40 thousand. This doesn’t change the overall picture though & we have to
    recognize the fact that Jews were a small minority in Palestine in this time period. But the
    state of Israel was not established in 1881, as we all know. It was established in 1948,
    when the demographic picture was quite different.
    #5. It’s also worth noting that contrary to Arab propaganda, Arabs had NO land ownership of
    most of western Palestine at any time between 1881 and 1948 – they owned less than 1/2 of
    it. Huge areas of Palestine, particularly in the Negev region, were almost completely
    uninhabited throughout this time period. We also have to recognize the difference between
    the concept of private land ownership and political sovereignty. The establishment of the
    Jewish state did not have to and wasn’t meant to result in Arabs losing their land. As I
    have already stated, most Zionist leaders envisioned a utopian society in which Arabs would
    live & work side by side with the Jews & enjoy equal rights. Also, most Jewish land
    acquisition in Palestine, which began under the Ottomans, was legal. “Jews stole Arab land”
    is a ridiculous Arab lie, unfortunately often repeated by Leftist “intellectuals” in the
    West, including Israel.

  19. #6. The reaction of the Arab population to Jewish immigration (including the violent Arab
    revolts) & the subsequent Arab assault on Israel in 1948 were the primary causes for
    de-population of many Arab villages & for the Arab “refugee problem”. Let’s not ignore the
    fact that the number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries (post-1948) was actually higher
    than the number of Arabs who fled Israel during the War of Independence. Most of those Jews
    were ethnically cleansed from virtually the entire Arab world in peace-time, one step at a
    time. Most Arab refugees, by contrast, were simply fleeing the war. In a historical context,
    this can be viewed as a population exchange between 2 warring sides, although, once again,
    we have to remember that most Arabs left Israel voluntarily, which was NOT the case for most
    Jews fleeing from the Arab world.
    #7. Present-day Jordan, in its entirety, was a part of Palestine under the British Mandate.
    The Brits lopped off that huge chunk of Palestine – about 78% of Palestine’s total area –
    and gave it over to the Hashemites in the early 1920’s. The UN Partition Plan of 1947
    proposed splitting what remained of Mandatory Palestine roughly 50/50, giving the Arabs an
    ADDITIONAL Arab state in Palestine & leaving the Jews a puny 12% of the area they sought for
    a state – a small fraction of the historic homeland of the Jewish People. And even that
    proposal envisioned Israel split into 3 tiny, completely indefensible cantons, only
    symbolically joined at 2 points – one in the North & one in the South. The vast majority of
    the proposed Jewish state would be comprised of the desolate desert wasteland known as
    Negev. As unfair as this offer was, the Zionist leadership accepted it, agreeing to give up
    even Jerusalem, with its high Jewish population & immense historic & religious significance
    to the Jewish people. On the other hand, the Arabs, who were to control about 88% of the
    total area of Palestine, violently rejected the Partition Plan and launched a bloody war
    against Israel in 1948. In my opinion, the primary reason for the rejection is clear. In the
    eyes of the Islamic World it’s inconceivable to give a non-Muslim “infidel” sovereignty over
    any part of what Muslims *CONSIDER* to be Islamic property, no matter how small or
    insignificant. Non-Muslims can be tolerated and have been tolerated in the Islamic world,
    but only as long as they’re dominated by their Muslim overlords. It’s as simple as that.
    There’s a ton of historic evidence to support this view.

  20. Regarding the “Palestinian people”
    Sam, even you seem to acknowledge, in your last 2 or 3 posts, the fact that the concept
    of Palestinian identity is not quite as genuine as the dishonest radical Left portrays it.
    Your arguments on this point are getting weaker and weaker. In reality Yahudi is absolutely
    correct in his assertion that the Palestinian national identity was primarily a product of
    Arab imagination. There’s a mountain of evidence that completely disproves the myth of the
    “ancient Palestinian nation.”
    First, we have statements of people like the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin Al Huseini,
    who glorified Nazi Germany, encouraged Hitler to extend his final solution to Palestine &
    get rid of its Jews, and even assisted the Nazis in raising Muslim divisions for the SS.
    Even during ww2 Al Huseini, like nearly every other prominent Arab figure in Palestine,
    insisted that Palestine was in fact part of Syria.
    Let’s just go back to the period between 1948 and 1967, when the so-called “Palestinians”
    were ruled by Egyptians & Jordanians. To the best of my knowledge, there was no significant
    expression of Palestinian nationalism at that time & no attempt to establish a “Palestinian”
    state in any part of those territories. In fact, even the PLO, which was formed in 1964, 3
    years prior to Israel’s conquest of Judea, Samaria & Gaza, had as its primary objective the
    destruction of the Jewish state & NOT the establishment of a “Palestinian” state. And
    whether you admit it or not, the fact is, that is PRECISELY what “Liberating Palestine” has
    traditionally meant to the Arab World. It’s not about creating a state – it’s about
    DESTROYING one – the infidel Zionist entity, also known as Israel.
    Also, the Israeli-Arabs, who are essentially the same people as the “Palestinians”, identify
    themselves primarily as Israeli-ARABS & not “Palestinians”, although that is changing now,
    mainly as a result of PLO propaganda & the infiltration of people like Ahmad Tibi into
    Israel’s legislature. Arafat’s cronies in Israel are working day & night to impose this new
    “Palestinian” national identity on Israeli Arabs and their brainwashing campaign has
    demonstrated impressive results.
    Finally, you have Yasir Arafat himself (who, by the way, was born in CAIRO), making numerous
    statements describing the dispute with Israel in terms of Arab-Israeli conflict, rather than
    Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Here’s one example – “We Arabs did not murder or disposess
    Jews – the Europeans did that, but we Arabs paid the price”. Note that Yasir makes no
    mention of “Palestinians”, instead he refers to “Arabs”. The reason is, the Palestinian
    nation had not yet been invented at the time he made this statement.
    A prominent “Palestinian” critic of the PLO, whose name I can provide if it’s requested,
    recently said the following to the Israeli press – “I was born a Jordanian & became a
    Palestinian overnight.”
    This is just a FRACTION of evidence I can provide to prove my point.
    Political corectness aside, you have to come to terms with the fact that the invention of
    the Palestinian people is just another tool in the Arab World’s war against Israel – a tool
    that has proven to be extremely effective in brainwashing the uninformed masses in the West,
    not without help of the lying Anti-Zionist “intellectuals” in Israel, like Mr. Kimmerling
    and others.

  21. Merkava — I’m glad you think this is an interesting debate, but so far I’m the only one who has sourced any of my claims — especially by providing multiple, corroborating sources. You claim to be correcting me or SY on a number of things, but sources would be nice.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.