Herzl's Grave Vandalized
Theodor Herzl’s gravesite was vandalized this morning. The asshole responsible wrote “Neo-Nazis” and “Yossi Beilin” in the area surrounding the late Zionist leader’s grave. Beilin is the Israeli politician behind the Oslo Accords and the Geneva Accords.
What a muddled and ultimately idiotic political statement. I’m all for graffiti whether I agree with your statement or not, which in this case, I most certainly do not. But likening people making honest attempts to end this conflict to Nazis is not only counterproductive, it’s just plain stupid — especially if you’re trying to dispell the anti-Zionist world’s portrayal of Israelis as Nazis.
That being said, nobody fucks with Teddy’s grave! I hope they find the bastard and give him what for!
[Update] They wrote “Hitler” on Ben Gurion’s grave too. Ugh.
In related graffiti news:
“The word “Allah” in Arabic was found hewn into the eastern wall of Jerusalem’s Temple Mount, in one of the worst acts of vandalism at the history-rich site in the last several years, archaeologists and eyewitnesses said Wednesday.”
Jerusalem Post
Check for the “agent provocateur” angle.
I don’t get this. Would the perpetrators actually believe that Beilin supporters would get the blame for this?
Call me a racist, but the people responsible for this stuff are totally bonkers.
This sort of makes sense, as the extremists who idolize the Land have become so insane that they consider the founders of Zionism to be heretics, anti-Semites, etc. What’s amazing and frightening is that these psychopaths are such a vocal minority in Israeli society.
Right you are, EV. Considering the compatibility of the Israeli and American right, developed by the likes of Norman Finkelstein, Benny Elon, David Limbaugh, etc., it makes alot of sense. There is an intolerance of secular civil authority that leads to a bizzare sense of victimhood.
Not to make too big of point of it, but there are no Geneva Accords, just a bunch of stupid ideas like giving up Jewish claims to the Temple Mount.
An “accord” requires an agreement between two sides, and Switzerland doesn’t count.
Did someone just put David Limbaugh (author of Persecution, you know, about how Jews, er, “Liberals,” are always killing helpless disenfranchised Christians who never hurt anyone [no really, it has a lion, as in “feed them to,” on the cover]) and Finkelstein (unpopular exposer of hoaxes) in the same category?
Who could’ve done this?
Arabs are always a possibility but not very satisfyingly so once yo examine it. (We would almost certainly bet money against it.)
Some kind of violence/vandalism-acce pting post-Zionist trying to call Herzl a Nazi for the philosophical similarities, and also attacking Beilin for not “really” (in the vandal’s mind) trying?
Certainly an ultra-right-wing Zionist. Anywhere you go fundies are not just scum, but scum not content to live and let live.
What we are almost tempted to suggest by the incoherence of the “message” is: what if we only have a fragment of the intended slur? What if the guy got interrupted?
”
The graves of Israel’s founding father David Ben-Gurion in the Negev and Zionist visionary Theodor Herzl in Jerusalem were desecrated by vandals with Nazi graffiti on Wednesday in the latest of such acts of vandalism since Prime Minister Ariel Sharon announced his plan to disengage from the Gaza Strip.
Police said the word “Hitler” was found spray painted on Ben-Gurion’s grave in the community of Sede Boker in the Negev. “Neo-Nazis hail Beilin” – referring to the chairman of the left wing Yahad political party – were spray painted on Herzl’s grave.
”
This is clearer than the post. Whoever did this must either believe or want to project belief in a “true Zionism” betrayed by false leaders, something like an angrier Trot.
and,
In another related incident, police in Rosh Ha’iyn discovered graffiti scrawled across a wall of a school reading, “Sharon: Rabin and Hitler are waiting for you in hell” alongside the words “Death to Arabs.”
Yeah. No chance whatever it was settlers (Sharon is a bad guy to them now, for even suggesting a token concession, and of course Rabin they actually shot).
“They wrote “Hitler” on Ben Gurion’s grave too. Ugh. ”
Umm, well, he WAS one.
…”he was one” what?
That’s not even coherent:
ben-Gurion was a Hitler?!
All this is sad but it is an outgrowth of the Israel’s government’s suppression of freedom and the right to voice your opinion in Israel.
These things are not at all organized – this is what happens in societies where peoples opinions become illegal.
The Jerusalem Post:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…
Joe Schmo that link doesn’t seem to work
I apologize here are the links:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…
I think k&y’s nested brackets are really cute. That notwithstanding, Finkelstein isn’t exactly an exposer of hoaxes. He’s a Holocaust-obsessed crank.
Wow. I guess vandalism sucks if it says something you don’t agree with. I’m sure Mobius will learn nothing of himself with this episode.
Dan Marsden’s blog is hilarious. My two favorite things are the button he proudly boasts of wearing, the one that says “Palestine” with a country whose borders look very similar to the modern state of Israel and which were drawn by the colonial-mandatory powers post-WW1. Marsden seems to pride himself on being anti-colonialist.
The other is that one of the contributors to his blog with a nomme de guere of “Intifada” has another blog, without postings, entitled “Victory to the Iraqi Resistance.” Victory indeed, that bombing in Hilla that killed 125 people was a great example of the victories he and his ilk are rooting for.
Marsden, I beg of you, please please please continue to make your views heard loud and clear. Please let everyone and their mother know where you stand on “Israel” (your quotes). You and your fellow travellers are gifts to supporters of Israel like myself, and I thank you!
I’ve got something up at my blog.
This pisses me off.
k&y, he was inspired by Hitler. Call him a Hitler or a Hitlerite. It makes no difference.
Sausage, I do not care about borders per se. But I do support my Palestinian brothers and sisters and their land claims. At the end of the day, what is a border? A line drawn that separates related people. Is the person 2 metres outside your border a different person? It seems to me you’re the one who’s obsessed with borders, not I. The button that I wear I do not wear because of my belief in the borders drawn by the colonialists, but because of my support for the liberation of the entire land and the return of the refugees to their homes. But I don’t expect you to understand.
No of course you don’t believe in borders, yet you seem to have no trouble identifying people as “Palestinian,” “Lebanese” or “Canadian” for that matter. Is the person 2 metres outside of “Palestine” a Palestinian? Am I obsessed with borders? You betcha. For the same reason I have a door to my apartment, one that locks.
Like I said, please keep posting and please keep speaking out, the louder the better.
That land was given to the Jews by Hashem!
No one invokes the AH name without paying consequences! Israel is not committing mass genocide!
k&y, he was inspired by Hitler.
As is Dan Marsden. (Sorry: Dan “Marsden”.)
But, then, fascist ideologues are everywhere on the Web; no reason to get all hot and bothered about this one.
K&Y, you are not actually suggesting that there are philosophical similarities between Herzl and the Nazis, are you? You were just imagining how some sick post-Zionist shmuk might make that claim, right?
Dan Marsden – check out your site using Mozille Firefox – it totally breaks
John Brown, yes I am aware of that. It’s because of the Google Ad, and I can’t possibly remove it.
Sausage, if ethnicity were dependent on borders, then Jews and Kurds, and other groups would’ve been extinct by now.
John, another thing, if you refresh it a couple of times, it works. I use Firefox and 90% of the time it works. It’s surely an inconvenience but I can’t possibly do anything, as my host was not supposed to have put those ads on there but unexpectedly did.
Marsden…
Where are you from? Why do you care so much about Israel/ Palestine. I am a leftist Jew with family from the Middle East – many of whome live in what is now called Israel. I am personally invovled with this issue.
It says that you are a “pro-Palestinian English” activist.
May I ask you (since you are playing the blame game), who created the situation in Israel/ Palestine? Who created the Balfour decleration?
I guess when you have the privelege coming from the Empire where the sun never sets its pretty easy to criticize Israel. In fact, its just pretty easy…
And one more thing…
You live in fucking Canada. The occupying powers of North America still commit genocide (right near where you live). There are standoffs between Native youth in Canada against the Canadian government. BUt that would actually probably challenge your privelege.
I hate to see some of these things out of anger, but really…
It just pisses me off that so many people have a problem with Israel in the US, Canada, France, England – all of these global superpower – and yet all of the fucking problems in the world are because of Israel (racist savage Jewish hethens).
Instead of lying down in front of tanks with ISM in Palestine (which pisses me off – your once again using your privelege in a way that others can’t use) BRITISH (emphasis on British) Columbia is entirely unceded. SHUT DOWN THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT FROM STEALING LAND FROM NATIVES – before you mention one word about Israeli colonialism. Then – maybe then – I will respect your opinion.
http://www.turtleisland.org/ne…
http://www.geocities.com/insur…
http://www.torontothebetter.ne…
You can check out ienearth.org – and ask them how to get involved.
1. Finkelstein’s first big thing that he did was to expose Joan Peters’ book “From Time Immemorial” as a hoax. More recently he found plagiarism in a work of Alan Dershowitz’s which stole from Peters. He has indeed done work with how the Holocaust is remembered (and turned into a political football), but this hardly mitigates the hoax-exposing part.
2. Ben-Gurion “following Hitler” (umm, time travel much, Marsden?), even if it were true, would not make them “Hitlers.” There was a very abstract common ground, a certain sharing of goals leading to a certain transfer agreement, but really nothing that could possibly justify calling ben-Gurion a “Hitler.”
3. Zionism, Nazism, and indeed all nationalisms can trace their philosophical roots to the same essential template of Birthright and Heimat and Racial Exceptionalism and Purity and so on to the vomiting booth. The part where Nazis and Zionists cannot be compared is in practice (the Holocaust happened in reality, not as a philosophical precept), but if you heard one of the two (or even one of a different nationalitst school, since all nationalism is ironically the same basic game) talking ideology without specific terms in a smoky bar (say, one habited by a certain Orit), you’d be hard pressed to identify them.
4. Possible response to the guy going off on Canada: yeah, because the suffering of the Nez Pierce is being used to recruit for attacks on American, Spanish, Balinese, Phillipine etc soil.
Who said I’m not an activist in the cause of the Natives as well? You are so limited in your mentality, aren’t you? I don’t blame ya, the “Israeli” education/brainwashing system must suck big time.
And to answer your q, I am also from the Middle East. That’s about all you need to know at the moment.
Your (zionist) kind are land thieves. End of story.
And, I don’t care what you think about my opinion and whether or not you respect it. The last thing I’m interest in is getting respect from someTHING that has no respect whatsoever for human life other than the Jewish one.
If nothing else, kooks like Marsden will drive more traffic to Jewlicious.
Another thing, guess Mob’s wonky posts have attracted the critters that usually hang out at indymedia. This is slowly becoming the shadow version of Little Green Footballs.
To J and others, see ya at Jewlicious.
shtriemel: good f’in riddance. hate on hater.
Funny how one who puts up blatantly racist posts (israelis aren’t jews is a good one), pix of the president with a star of david on his shorts (oh, it’s the zionists who control the government, not the jews, and besides see there are jews who hate israel too – nice neteuri karta link there) and cavorts with blog buddies who celebrate the massacre of innocents by supporting the *iraqi resistance* claims that folks here have “no respect whatsoever for human life other than the Jewish one”. Um, whatever.
From your blog postings and the little exchange in the comments, it’s fairly obvious you have earned every bit of bad karma you’ve been dealt in your miserable, bitter and confused life.
Once again, please continue to post and speak out. I applaude you sir, in your self-described quest to “smash Israel” you have become a valuable tool of our enterprise. Shalom!
Aw, c’mon Dan, I don’t hate anyone. Sheeesh. But I do think your Corrie post was wonky and that underneath the strategically placed baseball cap and wigger talk that your as white and neurotic as I am. So drop the whole “Corrie was a saint stuff” and realize that the goyishe girls still prefer goyishe boys. Ok?
k&y is confused about what means “hoax”. Also confused about the years of his life Finkelstein has spent on his friend Dershowitz. But that is, course, another story. And hardly one worth mentioning: the earnest attempts to school the world in the histories of nationalism? Huggable! Far outshadow! But where do the Nez Pierce fit into all this, hmm? Possible response.
Let’s not hate Dan “Marsden” the way Dan S. hates that “superficial racist slut”, though. He’s got issues. And not just Zundel ones. Rahmanoot y’all.
Mob,
granted your hobby in graffiti,
I’d think that you’d agree that Israeli graffiti is not institutionalized as in the galut. There’s no schoolyard rules. While a lot of the Israeli stuff seems spontaneous, much of the political stuff is not credible from any point of view. It’s just too easy to paint this stuff and be superficial and expect it to actually come from these people. And the Israeli media lick it all up as if they have some juicy item like the 12monkeys.
My compassion does not extend to those who are on a self-declared mission to “smash Israel.”
k&y and letsmambo,
Not all Finkelsteins are alike. The one I refer to above is the PR consultant of Bibi Netanyahu. Feel free to look it up….
The Marsdens will always find a way to rationalize their racism into phony “progressivism.” Somehow, only the Jews should be prohibitted from the same right of national self-determination they self-righteously demand for others. Feh!
k&y and letsmambo,
I’m Sorry. I mistakenly referenced the phony progressive blowhard Norman when I meant Arthur Finkelstein (no relation, I suspect).
I owe you…
“From now on, anyone who belongs to the Republican Party will automatically find himself in the same group as the opponents of abortion, and anyone who supports abortion will automatically be labeled a Democrat,” [Arthur] Finkelstein told Maariv in the interview published last week. “Bush’s strategy secures the power of the American Christian right not only for this term,” he said. “In fact, it secures its ability to choose the next Republican president.” […] Finkelstein has been increasingly active in Israeli politics (AP, Nov 11, 2004).
meanwhile, comparisons between Hertzl and Hitler are totally valid, and historically pretty accurate. Hasn’t ANYONE out there read Ben Hecht’s perfidy, notedly banned in Israel for many years because of the accusations theirin that Israel could have save alot more lives during the holocaust and refused to in order to make their point about the jews needing a jewish state more visible?
In Hertzl’s early writings, he too is seeking a “final solution to the jewish problem”, baptizing his children and writing letters to church authorities requisioning secret conversions for large jewish communities in order to assimilate them more freely. The jews and their freakish differences, their petty obssesions with private law and their stubborn rejection of modernism, he viewed, was THE problem, holding back all other progress on the earth The zionism thing only came to him when it became clear that the gentiles wouldn’t let go of us as jews either, until something changed. but, once we had our own land, we could become noraml people, respected and feared like any other modern emperialist Govt. and so, modern zionism was born!
But no on loved german culture and loathed the weak and the poor, the brown and the strange like, Hertzl, make no mistake, fellas. The great Nazi slogan of “Jew! go to palestine!” was always backed up by the phone #’s of prominent Zioist organizations in the greater German Phonebook until the very end.
Wow. I guess vandalism sucks if it says something you don’t agree with. I’m sure Mobius will learn nothing of himself with this episode.
did i say that i was opposed to them expressing themselves through graffiti? nope, in fact, i said quite the opposite. my complaint is that they desecrated peoples gravesites! oh the hypocrisy!
you’re such a transparent hater. why don’t you try tapping into your ahava and talking to me like a human being as opposed to shitting on me at every opportunity?
Aw, c’mon Dan, I don’t hate anyone. Sheeesh. But I do think your Corrie post was wonky and that underneath the strategically placed baseball cap and wigger talk that your as white and neurotic as I am. So drop the whole “Corrie was a saint stuff” and realize that the goyishe girls still prefer goyishe boys. Ok?
i take offense to the word wigger, #1. it implies that black people who speak with an ebonic dialect are “niggers.” #2. ebonic vernacular is and has been a part of my speech since my childhood. it’s not something i approximated, it’s what i grew up speaking in public school five minutes outside of new york city. #3. i don’t think my rachel corrie post is wonky at all, and i don’t necessarily think she was a saint. at the same time, i won’t sit back and stomach people denigrating her when she did nothing less than what i’d hope anyone else would do when confronted with such a situation: stand up for justice. #4. i only date within the tribe, because a non-jewish woman would never be able to relate to my relationship with judaism without becoming a jew herself.
that being said, if you think i ally myself with wingbats like mardsen, you’re sorely mistaken. anyone willing speculate that jews “aren’t really jews” as if it has any relevance whatsoever to this political conflict is obviously a dunce. apart from the fact that arthur koenstler’s “13th tribe” is statistically incorrect, what does that have anything to do with the price of chai in ramallah?
Let’s not hate Dan “Marsden” the way Dan S. hates that “superficial racist slut”, though. He’s got issues.
she’s got issues too. and i don’t hate her, despite being revulsed by her. i just pity her, and the nation of israel for being even partially comprised of people like her.
It’s just too easy to paint this stuff and be superficial and expect it to actually come from these people.
josh, that’s conspiracy theory: the left painted this graffiti in order to make the right look bad. as though the people in gush katif didn’t put fucking stars on their sleeves themselves. tell me this isn’t playing off holocaust imagery. PUHLEEEEZE.
for that matter, EV and zionista, what’s wrong with divorcing the ancient torah longing for The Land from literalist political macinations? Couldn’t it be that they are different visions made from different priorities, the former co-opted by the latter in a ply for control and fortune? and fuythamore, why is spray painting “allah” onto the wall so bad? seems kinda beautiful, no? wouldn’t that be cool is there was a corner with all the nine billion names of God big upped on it? wouldn’t that be righter somehow?
something i appropriated*
I am so glad I’m not white.
(Is that racist?)
Marsden,
Isn’t blatant hate fun?
Man your website is really convincing too. If i were to simply ignore reality, there could be a compelling argument there. I gave up a long time ago trying to prove that those that don’t agree with my position are wrong, and started thinking about how to improve my position.
See, what you’re doing isn’t effective, in fact it is probably galvanizing a great number of people further away from your position. Being inflammatory, saying that modern day Jews aren’t descendant from Hebrews for example, will not convince too many people that Israel must be destroyed. What it will do is galvanize many of us towards a more firm stance, or cause us to just ignore you (especially when you do such an abismal job of backing up your claims).
In closing, you are a fucking hack (see, i can be inflammatory too)
The great Nazi slogan of “Jew! go to palestine!” was always backed up by the phone #’s of prominent Zioist organizations in the greater German Phonebook until the very end.
Crack! Buehler! (Willis?)
josh, that’s conspiracy theory
And we know that that can never be taken seriously, eh?
Are you ignoring the police informer who took responsibilty for making ‘inciteful’ bumper stickers, or the case this week where another informer who infiltrated the Ateret Cohanim yeshiva tried to sell grenades to yesha supporters?
Do you remember the last major time some graffiti was found in Jerusalem next to the President’s residence with a large bullseye and arrows pointing to the homes of the PM, prez and one other politician. The media hyped it as extreme right-wingers, but later with the arrests we (the few who saw the follow up) that it was left-wingers on a totally different agenda.
It’s just too easy to play the other side these days. The media wants sensation, and gd forbid do some research before publishing an item, not unlike the ‘allah’ vandalism this week which could have easily been done by a Jew to defame the Jordanian workers who are on a work slowdown to fix the Temple wall.
Mobius responds to criticism: “you’re such a transparent hater. why don’t you try tapping into your ahava and talking to me like a human being as opposed to shitting on me at every opportunity?”
Looks like the ol’ persecution complex is acting up again. Let’s take a look at some “ahava”:
“Israel. It is divinity.
There’s just a slight problem: Jews. ”
“She [Rachel Corrie] did not view Israel as the “necessary evil” so many of us Jews see it as (be it as a pit-stop between a Davidic monarchy or a utopian anarchy), but rather as a force of evil itself.”
“But my fellow Jews catcall. The say, “Fuck her [Rachel Corrie]!” And that, to me, is not Israel. Rather, that is the voice of Amalek.”
Oh yes, feel the love. Criticism of Jews, or demonization? But should we unworthy, Amalek-voiced supporters of the “force of evil” respond in kind (actually, even much more mildly), we become “haters”.
Where did this persecution complex come from? Could it be…”indoctrination into a culture of paranoia wrought by two millenia of antisemitism”?
yoseph crack,
There was no Israel until three years after the fall of the Reich. I’ll skip the rest of your history lecture, thanks.
J, we don’t dance on graves. That’s not a persecution complex. Why are you so hot for a pile on?
Zionista-
I was referring to Mobius’ persecution complex, not Rachel Corrie’s.
It’s also not so clear that we (I assume you mean Jews) don’t (figuratively) dance on graves. (There was a discussion about this when Arafat died/ croaked. But consider the treatment of Haman last week, as an example.)
Oh yes, feel the love. Criticism of Jews, or demonization? But should we unworthy, Amalek-voiced supporters of the “force of evil” respond in kind (actually, even much more mildly), we become “haters”.
pull those remarks completely out of context and sure, you can make me look bad. and that’s all you care to do, is make me look bad. that makes you a hater.
and that puts you in violation of our posting policy.
if you think it’s justifiable to ethnically cleanse palestinians from their indigenous homeland, i hate to break it to you, but that’s evil. if you want to try to make me feel bad about myself for calling you out on that, you’ll have to forgive me, but i could care less what you think: you’re immoral.
“and that puts you in violation of our posting policy. ”
The anarchy…the anarchy!!!!
Mob, you’re way too vain and sensitive to be conducting anarchy of any kind.
to zionista, who will probably not read this:
No kidding! There is also another Norman Finkelstein who is a Canadian children’s author.
And “greater German phone book” sounds like a drunken metaphor, but it’s entirely correct unless meant literally: historically Zionists and exclusivist anti-Semites, having rhyming goals, have always been quite predictably and logically bedfellows.
pull those remarks completely out of context and sure, you can make me look bad. and that’s all you care to do, is make me look bad. that makes you a hater. and that puts you in violation of our posting policy.
giggle … black, white, zebra crossing? ethnically cleansing Jewschool, one critic at a time? not so much giggling, suddenly.
historically Zionists and exclusivist anti-Semites, having rhyming goals, have always been quite predictably and logically bedfellows. And Algerian liberation movement! Also Kofi Annan! A party, and you don’t invite anyone: pooh.
yoseph crack,
Ben Hecht’s Perfidy is banned in Israel?! I never heard that.
Is that an official ban? Where can I look into that?
shtreimel — this has nothing to do with vanity, or anarchy, it has to do with the fact that i will not allow this site to be used as a means to make personal attacks upon people. either discuss the topic at hand or keep your mouth shut. if you can’t, you’re not welcome here. period.
It’s funny that you threatened J with a banning. He’s one of the most eloquent and intelligent posters on your blog. You ban him, the overall IQ of this blog drops quite significantly. Although if you ban Brown, it’ll raise a few points. So it’s all math from here on in.
being eloquent and intelligent doesn’t make you a good person, nor a kind one
k&y,
Of course I read it. But it looks like you skipped my errata and apologia. Praise Jesus and shoot from the hip…
“being eloquent and intelligent doesn’t make you a good person, nor a kind one”
And being kind doesn’t make you right.
Mobius says
“pull those remarks completely out of context and sure, you can make me look bad. and that’s all you care to do, is make me look bad. that makes you a hater.”
Let’s see. First, it’s not enough to just claim that I pulled your remarks out of context. You have to demonstrate this. I quoted three of your remarks, all taken from your recent piece about Rachel Corrie on Orthodox Anarchist. I refer anyone interested to check the piece out and see if I quoted anything even slightly out of context. Or, Mobius could post the piece here to make it easier for all concerned. Of course, that might subject the piece to more criticism over here, but, hey, criticism is good, right?
Next, the claim that all I care to do is to make Mobius look bad. Mobius, you have to get over yourself. It’s not all about you. One of the reasons I post, in general, is to make certain IDEAS look bad. This is because I find those ideas poisonous, destructive and likely to cause harm to people I care about (which sometimes includes even the people who hold the ideas). Inevitably, when an idea is made to look bad, the holder of the idea is not going to be happy. There’s not much to be done about this.
What prompted my post in this thread was the huge gap between what you expect of others and what you expect of yourself. You complain bitterly about attacks that are much milder than what you dish out (see the Corrie piece, or some of the remarks on this thread). Of course, your attacks on others must seem self-evidently justified to yourself, but the rest of us don’t see it that way.
“and that puts you in violation of our posting policy.”
You want to ban me, go right ahead. It’s your credibility on the line here, not mine. I can find something else to do. Meanwhile, do you apply your posting policy to yourself? You may want to reread some of what you’ve written.
“if you think it’s justifiable to ethnically cleanse palestinians from their indigenous homeland, i hate to break it to you, but that’s evil.”
And where did I say anything about ethnic cleansing? The majority of Corrie’s critics are probably against mass expulsion. The argument is about the necessity or justification for demolishing the houses involved in the Corrie incident, or more broadly the demolishing of the buildings objected to by ISM. Calling your opponents actions “evil” when in most cases their actions will at worst be mistaken may satisfy you emotionally, but will eventually bankrupt you intellectually.
“if you want to try to make me feel bad about myself for calling you out on that, you’ll have to forgive me, but i could care less what you think: you’re immoral.”
Uh, posting policy violation, anyone? Well, a while back you called me racist for no reason, so I guess I can handle “immoral”. Sticks and stones. But let me tell you: if you want to get in the ring, you need to be able to take a punch as well as throw one. You’re not going to get far with that glass jaw.
“this has nothing to do with vanity, or anarchy, it has to do with the fact that i will not allow this site to be used as a means to make personal attacks upon people. ”
Oh.
“being eloquent and intelligent doesn’t make you a good person, nor a kind one”
Ah. Well, how can I be good or kind when you’ve monopolized the entire world’s share of those traits?
An important aspect of goodness and kindness is making a good faith effort to determine what these things mean in a complex world. This takes effort, thought, introspection and a willingness to have your ideas challenged. These efforts don’t always feel good. The cheap high that comes from self-righteousness and unearned moral grandstanding, on the other hand, feels great. At first. Hopefully, you’ll learn the difference.
Shtriemel – thanks. Above and beyond.
z, what we meant was we didn’t think anyone would come back. Of course now the thread’s even bigger…
And no praising Jesus! You give him ideas.
Let’s see. First, it’s not enough to just claim that I pulled your remarks out of context. You have to demonstrate this. I quoted three of your remarks, all taken from your recent piece about Rachel Corrie on Orthodox Anarchist. I refer anyone interested to check the piece out and see if I quoted anything even slightly out of context.
how is pulling non-sequential quotes from an essay not taking them out of context? what was the context? you claim i was demonizing jews. i was not. i was demonizing an action, a behavioral trait. and i was defending israel and the jewish people by saying that despite that behavioral trait’s overrepresentation amongst our people, it is not emblematic or representative of what judaism nor the jewish people stand for. you chose to read this in a very, very different way, and then selectively drew quotes to justify your radical and ultimately incorrect interpretation of what i was saying. that’s disingenuous and offensive.
Next, the claim that all I care to do is to make Mobius look bad. Mobius, you have to get over yourself. It’s not all about you.
except that the vast majority of your postings have naught to do with challening the ideas i present, but rather challenging me, individually. your statement was that i suffer from a persecution complex. is that an attack on the ideas i’ve presented, or an attack on me?
let’s examine how this statement was brought about:
velvel said that i think graffiti which espouses a message other than one i agree with is bad. i did not say any such thing, however. i said that the message sucked and that doing graffiti on people’s gravesites was tasteless. velvel went on to say that i would learn nothing from this, ie., that i am a hypocrite because i do political graffiti as well. so i challenged him by stating the obvious: i did not make a hypocritical statement, as i’ve clearly demonstrated. the only reason he’s making that remark is because he has a personal bias against me which is consistently reflected in his posting. anyone willing to conduct an exhaustive google search for velvel’s name on the site will find that he repeatedly attacks me on an individual basis as opposed to attacking the ideas i express. that i am well aware of the nature of his attacks somehow, to you, implies that i suffer from a persecution complex.
what is the point of making that remark, that “mobius suffers from a persecution complex”? is it to say, “i disagree with mobius here. it’s entirely acceptable for a person to write offensive political graffiti on a person’s grave”? is it to say, “i agree with velvel that mobius is being hypocritical, because of the following reasons”? no. not at all. it’s to say, “mobius can’t take what he dishes out. i don’t like what he wrote in his rachel corrie post, therefore, it’s acceptable for people to attack him with unfounded allegations, and unacceptable for him to call people out on the basis of those allegations.”
ergo: What prompted my post in this thread was the huge gap between what you expect of others and what you expect of yourself. You complain bitterly about attacks that are much milder than what you dish out (see the Corrie piece, or some of the remarks on this thread). Of course, your attacks on others must seem self-evidently justified to yourself, but the rest of us don’t see it that way.
i attacked the idea that it’s okay to denigrate rachel corrie and that that denigration is somehow justifiable jewishly. i did not attack any sole individual. rather i related that behavioral trait back to teachings within judaism which reject that behavior. velvel called me a hypocrite unfoundedly and i stated that the reason he did so is because he does not like me, which is consistently evidenced by his posts. to you, that means there’s a gap between what i dish out and what i can handle having dished out to me. this is clearly a preposterous contention which also reflects your contempt for me, that is consistently evidenced by your postings as well.
You want to ban me, go right ahead. It’s your credibility on the line here, not mine.
my credibility is on the line because i don’t want to entertain people who attack me out of sheer contempt? when daniel pipes boots anti-zionists from his lectures, does it affect his credibility in your eyes? when the green and libertarian presidential candidates were arrested at the presidential debates, was the credibility of the democratic and republican candidates affected in your eyes? i suspect not. but in neither of those cases did the person want to challenge pipes or bush or kerry as individuals. rather they wanted to challenge the ideas being presented. in this case, both you and velvel simply want to attack me, not me ideas. that i haven’t the patience to deal with such shit doesn’t mar my credibility. rather i think it makes me more credible because i have the clarity to see what you’re really about and i refuse to give you the forum to engage in such behavior.
The argument is about the necessity or justification for demolishing the houses involved in the Corrie incident, or more broadly the demolishing of the buildings objected to by ISM. Calling your opponents actions “evil” when in most cases their actions will at worst be mistaken may satisfy you emotionally, but will eventually bankrupt you intellectually.
i would agree that demolishing civilian homes for the sake of greater israel is a “mistaken” policy. to be ignorant of the facts and to formulate a position out of a lack of information: that is to be mistaken. however, if you are aware of the facts and you justify those actions and then go on to denigrate a person who physically resists that activity, that, in my eyes, is evil. that is evil in judaism’s definition of evil. which is not to say that the person is evil, or that there is no hope for them to make ammends and to redeem themself in this case. it just means that that position is an evil position to take.
Uh, posting policy violation, anyone? Well, a while back you called me racist for no reason, so I guess I can handle “immoral”. Sticks and stones. But let me tell you: if you want to get in the ring, you need to be able to take a punch as well as throw one. You’re not going to get far with that glass jaw.
you called me a glass jawed hypocrite, defending velvel’s mislabeling of me as a hypocrite, either because you dislike me, or because you are in favor of israel’s demolitions policy (one having nothing to do with the other in the context of your initial remarks, which is why this whole thread is ludicrous). if it’s the former, you’re just a jerk. if it’s the latter, you’re immoral. either way, the bigger question for me is why i even bother taking the time to respond to such a person. the only reason i can conjure is because it pains me to think that a person could have such baseless hatred for me, or that a member of the jewish people could take such an immoral position in the name of israel.
An important aspect of goodness and kindness is making a good faith effort to determine what these things mean in a complex world. This takes effort, thought, introspection and a willingness to have your ideas challenged. These efforts don’t always feel good. The cheap high that comes from self-righteousness and unearned moral grandstanding, on the other hand, feels great. At first. Hopefully, you’ll learn the difference.
beautiful hyperbole, but meaningless in the context of this conversation. because once again, you have not challenged my ideas. you’ve simply called me a hypocrite without foundation, and defended another person’s same act.
Point by point:
“how is pulling non-sequential quotes from an essay not taking them out of context? ”
If that were true, almost every quotation would be “out of context”. ‘Out of context’ means giving the words quoted a different meaning than that which the words quoted had in the original piece. Again, anyone interested should read the piece and see if I pulled the quotes out of context.
“you claim i was demonizing jews. i was not.”
Um, no. All I claimed was that someone who slams his critics for lacking “ahava” should refrain from slamming the majority of the Jewish people as you did in the Corrie piece. I will say now, though, that I believe you did in fact demonize the vast majority of Jews in that piece.
” i was demonizing an action, a behavioral trait. and i was defending israel and the jewish people by saying that despite that behavioral trait’s overrepresentation amongst our people, it is not emblematic or representative of what judaism nor the jewish people stand for. you chose to read this in a very, very different way, and then selectively drew quotes to justify your radical and ultimately incorrect interpretation of what i was saying. that’s disingenuous and offensive. ”
Read the piece again. You were not defending Israel and the vast majority of the Jewish people. You were saying that Judaism, or the Jewish tradition (as you understand it, of course), upheld certain ideals which all but a small percentage of Jews were violating. And the language you used to do so, some of which I quoted, not only lacked “ahava” but easily crossed the “sina” line.
It’s possible that your actual position on Jews who are not Chomsky, Carlebach, yourself, etc. (your “camp”, as you mentioned in the piece) are less harsh than what appeared in the piece. Even so, when you publish something, you are responsible for what it says.
“except that the vast majority of your postings have naught to do with challening the ideas i present, but rather challenging me, individually.”
Vast majority? The posts are all here; take a count. Most have nothing to do with you. And while we’re counting, you might want to check the “personal attack” balance. I seem to recall being called a “racist” not that long ago.
“it’s to say, “mobius can’t take what he dishes out.”
Yes, correct.
“i don’t like what he wrote in his rachel corrie post,…”
Also correct.
“therefore, it’s acceptable for people to attack him with unfounded allegations, and unacceptable for him to call people out on the basis of those allegations.”
How’d you get to that conclusion? I don’t care for anyone attacking anyone with unfounded allegations (see “racist” above). I simply found it odd that a person who criticizes with such abandon, as evidenced in the Corrie piece, could be so demanding of “ahava” and the like.
“to you, that means there’s a gap between what i dish out and what i can handle having dished out to me. this is clearly a preposterous contention which also reflects your contempt for me, that is consistently evidenced by your postings as well. ”
Preposterous? I’ll let others judge that. But I’m not the only one who’s commented on your “sensitivity gap”.
“when daniel pipes boots anti-zionists from his lectures, does it affect his credibility in your eyes? ”
Depends. If the anti-zionists are preventing Pipes’ words from reaching his audience because of their loudness or rowdyness, he loses no credibility by booting them. If he refuses to answer their questions following the lecture, then he loses credibility. Likewise, anyone who hacks into one of your postings and prevents others from reading them should be booted; otherwise not.
“but in neither of those cases did the person want to challenge pipes or bush or kerry as individuals. rather they wanted to challenge the ideas being presented. ”
Doubtful.
“in this case, both you and velvel simply want to attack me, not me ideas. that i haven’t the patience to deal with such shit doesn’t mar my credibility. ”
Speaking only for myself here, I don’t see why the manner in which you present your ideas (or the manner in which anyone else presents their ideas) is not fair game for comment. And just because you didn’t spell out people’s names in the Corrie piece doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be offended. Clearly it’s people like me (among other types) you had in mind when you wrote the piece. If I were to write “Defenders of Corrie are vile self-hating Jews”, I truly doubt you’d walk away feeling that you weren’t attacked.
“however, if you are aware of the facts and you justify those actions and then go on to denigrate a person who physically resists that activity, that, in my eyes, is evil.”
Right. As if your opponents have no arguments here. Any considerations regarding self-defense (which, I might add, is a major issue within Judaism)? Your piece didn’t even address these arguments. Instead, you went straight from wrong (your view, of course) to evil. Isn’t that exactly the trait that turns legitimate arguments into bitter fights?
“if it’s the former, you’re just a jerk. if it’s the latter, you’re immoral. ”
Guess I’ll take door number three.
a) you’re playing semantic games and i’m just not up for playing. i’ve got better things to do.
b) i did not “slam the majority of jewish people” — i slammed people who dance on rachel corrie’s grave or show sheer indifference towards her tragic death … are you suggesting that the majority of jewish people do so? if so, do you think jewish people who turn a blind eye to such a tragedy or otherwise revel in it are beyond rebuke?
c) i invite anyone who wishes to read the post to do so here and remark as to whether or not they believe i was using language which lacked respect or sought to demonize judaism or jewish people.
d) i think you have a preconception of tone which is simply not present.
e) you should try using your powers for good instead of evil.
i keed!
stay evil!
Mobius writes:
“…people who put moral conviction and altruism before statehood and perhaps even peoplehood. Those who recognize that the imperatives posed by Judaism are ultimately more important than Israel itself, be it nation or people. Because Israel is ultimately a state of mind”
_______________________ _____
Israel is state with borders and a military because 58 out of 360 Russian politicians agree with this statement:
‘It is possible to say that the entire democratic world today is under the monetary and political control of international Judaism, which high-profile bankers are openly proud of,’ the letter says.
Russia: 5,000 known public activists claim Judaism is fanatic and racist.
http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs…
Israel is a state of mind? You’re a Christian, retard. (Don’t call me evil!)
You’re a Christian, retard.
uh, right. i wonder, how much of your day do you spend reading mishnah & gemara?
Jesus was into halachic debate too I reckon. He was a Jew sure…but he kinda represents a, um, major break in Jewish thought. It’s just all your talk of ‘goodness’ and universal brotherhood as a ‘state of mind’ shit. Just sounds very Christian to me (not that there’s anything wrong with that!) Maybe you should be reading the gospels? You’ll always be a Jew sure…nothing you can do about that…but you can be a Christian too!
all of that stuff is in the talmud, and that is what i’m basing my position on. hence why i asked the question, and hence why you’re in the wrong. maybe you should come to israel for a year and do some learning. i’d be happy to set you up at the human rights yeshiva at yakar so that you can see these sources for yourself.
Thanks really. But a trip to Israel so that I can hear your teachings isn’t necessary. I’m sure your second coming will be well publicized.
Hear the “Good News”!
The kingdom of God is here and now! All the time! It’s in our hearts and minds!
It’s called Love!