I know it’s beside the point, but these are supposed to be the best (or least poorly) educated people in the Hasidic world – and even they can’t speak or write articulately. David Kelsey is right.
I so often hear, “We may disagree with their theology, but they’re the only ones out there doing kiruv on a large scale.” The hell with that – I’m sick of their attitude of moral and spiritual superiority.

Is it safe to call this the rise of the anti-christs?

Chaim,
I shouldn’t have posted that comment earlier; it didn’t contribute anything positive. I saw this posting first thing this morning, and I reacted.
However, having said that, I can’t quite bring myself to apologize. Certainly, I don’t believe that the behavior described in this article is representative of Chabad Hasidism. However, I meant what I said; there is a condescension on the part of Chabad that I find insufferable: “Let’s go out and minister to the poor, ignorant frei Jews who don’t know any better.” Chabad has as its goal the conversion of all Jews to its belief system, in the furtherance of its apocalyptic ideology – the bringing of Moshiach. So you don’t manifest the contempt for us that the other Haredim do; there’s still an attitude of superiority – “We’re right, and you’re wrong”. Chabad doesn’t go out of its way to invalidate the non-Orthodox denominations, but, at the same time, it doesn’t recognize them as being valid expressions of Judaism. In a way, I prefer the contemptuous attitude of the other Haredim; they write us off, and they leave us alone.
I have a personal axe to grind with Chabad, as well – they took my nephew, a brilliant, vulnerable kid looking for a sense of collective identity, and they brainwashed the hell out of him. They’ve told him (literally) that the sun revolves around the earth, that there are qualitative differences between the souls of Jews and those of gentiles – and he so desperately wants to belong that he believes them. And this didn’t happen in Brooklyn; it happened in the suburbs of Boston. Under their influence, he left his MO high school at the beginning of his senior year – Maimonides, Rav Soloveitchik’s school, which has always emphasized higher education – and has eschewed college in order to attend a Chabad yeshiva. He has a first-rate mind, and could ultimately have made a significant contribution to the world, but his intellect is going to waste. He’s allowed them to convince him that a college education is a waste of time, that the most important activity with which a Jewish man can occupy himself is the study of Torah. And please – I don’t want to hear from any Chabad or Haredi apologist reading this, “Who are you to decide how he can best make a contribution?” I say it again – Kelsey is right. Chabad is part of the Haredi world, and it’s a world that fosters poverty while encouraging intellectual stultification.
(I asked my nephew at one point, “If no Jewish men went to medical school, and the medical profession became depleted as a result, to whom would your rabbis go when they require medical attention?” Naturally, he had no answer.)
Another thing – the yeshiva he attends is the one in suburban Detroit, supposedly the most “anti-Meshichist” institution in your educational system – yet he won’t actually repudiate the idea that the Rebbe was Moshiach. Not long ago, he made a cryptic remark, to the effect of, “Every Lubavitcher both believes and doesn’t believe that the Rebbe was Moshiach.” I’m not convinced that Meshichism is a fringe belief within your movement; I think it’s pervasive and insidious. Chabad is an organization with a central controlling body – if your leaders disapprove of this belief, why do they allow it to flourish? Why do they not condemn it more vociferously?
Again, I don’t think that this behavior is typical of Lubavitchers, but I’m not surprised that this happened; I’m surprised that it didn’t happen sooner. This is the inevitable result of religious fanaticism. Before you tout the superiority of your belief system and way of life to the rest of world Jewry – perhaps you ought to clean house.

Cipher,
What happened to your nephew is awful, just awful. How was he recruited from a Modern Orthodox day school?
You said,
“In a way, I prefer the contemptuous attitude of the other Haredim; they write us off, and they leave us alone.”
If only it were true! Aish, a non-Chassidic Charedi organization, grows every year. They just opened yet another full-time branch, this one in Passaic, NJ. And they are now missionizing on college campuses, and hide their Charedism through their dress, and using language like “Are you ready to rock?”
At least Chabad is open that they are Charedi (even if they assiduously submerge plenty of other stuff), but Aish is not open about their Charedism, and the Orthodox Union openly works with them. Because between the choice of Jewish fundamentalism and secularism for secular Jewry, they will choose fundamentalism. For secular Jews, not for their own kids. Somehow it never comes to having to make that choice for their own kids. Go figure.
Do not expect the Charedim to change, to “clean house.” Do not expect the right-wing Modern Orthodox to stand up to them on our account, or keep them away from our kids.
You know what I learned from this, Cipher? What my socialist great-grandparents always knew. You can only trust your own to solve communal problems.
And the Charedim and the Modern Orthodox do not see secular Jewish youth as their own. They see them as other. As marks. Coins to be placed in their glatt-kosher piggy bank communally and for Olam Habah.
This will only stop when the secular Jewish community understands what is going on, and that these groups are growing more powerful every year, and we declare that if the choice is to ever be between fundamentalism (including just the “optional” risk of fundamentalist) and secularism, then the choice is secularism. Period. Only a Modern Orthodox approach should be considered acceptable to us in terms of Orthodox Judaism for our kids, Charedism makes no sense for us. And if that isn’t possible (which it should and could be) then so be it. Get lost anyway.
It is past time for the secular Jewish community to break all ties with those who seek or facilitate recruiting our youth to Charedism. Not just Chabad, Aish, Neve Yerushalayim, and Ohr Somayach, but also the Orthodox Union and NCSY, since they work with these peoples, and take guidance from their leaders, and justify these alliances because of the “spiritual war.”
If they want a “spiritual war,” they should get one.

BT,
all in all, you have nothing to worry about. myself, after being chabad for a full year (and counting) have seen what is going on. The meshichistn, are a group of lubavitch taht believes that the rebbe was and is alive and the moshiach. dont’ get too into them. it’s persuading at first, but you’ll their ploys. And if you all didn’t realise, this was an attack ON the meshichistn, not BY the meshichistn.

BT- I grew up secular/Reform and had a very similar experience to the one you describe. I’ve been connected now with Chabad for a number of years and have attended a Chabad yeshiva full-time and part-time.
No, the Chabad rabbi and his wife will never stop speaking to you. In fact, no matter what you do in life, they will be there for you through it all.
I don’t know what you mean by “conversion.” For me, I’ve come to the point where I’m deciding whether I want to live a Torah-true life (and become what the secular world seems to perceive as the “dreaded charedi”) or whether I value certain things so much that I can’t give them up (swimming at “mixed” beaches, shaking hands with women, etc). The choice is clear to me, but it is difficult. And not everyone has to make that decision, either. As long as you grew in your knowledge of Judaism and Torah, that’s all that matters.
The thing is, many secular Jews today value secular societal values more than traditional Torah values. Up above, cipher was incredulous that someone would believe “that there are qualitative differences between the souls of Jews and those of gentiles.” The thing is, for people who don’t necessarily believe in God or a soul, then to say such a thing is to be prejudice. But if you know that God exists and that spiritual worlds exist, then you can start to learn about them.
As far as the topic of this article, I’m sure you know that there is a very vocal section of the Chabad population, mostly based in Israel, who believes that the last Chabad Rebbe is the Moshiach, and that he is still alive and well and will be coming at any moment to escort in the Messianic era. This vocal section has, over the last decade, clashed with the section who doesn’t believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
In my experience, most campus Chabad shluchim do not believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
Anyway, despite what certain people say (e.g. “He’s allowed them to convince him that a college education is a waste of time, that the most important activity with which a Jewish man can occupy himself is the study of Torah”), I plan on going to grad school, and becoming rich, and being ultra-orthodox. One of the main emphases of a Chabad yeshiva is that you’re not meant to sit in yeshiva your whole life, but to go out and change the world. Some people prefer not to continue their secular education, some do. It’s a personal decision, and probably has more to do with personal views and psychological issues than with Chabad itself.

Actually, I beg to differ. Mentioning “God,” or the “godhead” or whatever doesn’t make a synagogue non-secular. Even having the most beautiful cantorial soloist in town doesn’t cut it. I would say that it’s a matter of belief and practice, not of who or what gets mentioned.

G-D Squad:
You’re confusing Lubavitch Judaism with Orthodox Judaism. Most religious Jews out there don’t beleive in the Tanya. They beleive in the Rambam’s cosmology, or the Messilat Yesharim’s, or any one of a million other Rabbonim and Gedolim who had a point of view about the nature of the soul and the universe. You’ll notice the Torah never speaks to the issue at all.
Unfortunately, it’s typical of Chabad “education” (& lots of kiruv) that they pretend the rest of the frum world thinks like they do, when there’s nothing farther from the truth. I once had a chabad rabbi tell me that I wasn’t supposed to shave at all — it took 2 hours with a mishneh torah, gemara, and shulchan aruch to convince him when all those sources say that shaving with things other than a straight-razor is muttar if someone wants to, that they’re not *kidding*!

Sholom,
I read the entry on your blog. I agree; Lubavitch is a cult. The object of their devotion is a charismatic individual who is believed to have possessed supernatural abilities while alive, and who, they believe, is now endowed with the ability to transcend death. Frankly, I can’t see how it isn’t a cult.
And, yeah – I agree that this whole business of seeing the Rebbe as the Messiah follows naturally from the Rebbe’s teachings, his constant emphasis on the imminence of the Messianic age, and the cult of personality he allowed to develop around him (whether intentionally or otherwise).
My nephew once told me that he heard a fellow Chabadnik say, “With the Rebbe and God, all things are possible.” The Rebbe came first! (Even my nephew found that amusing.)
G-D SQUAD said,
… cipher was incredulous that someone would believe “that there are qualitative differences between the souls of Jews and those of gentiles.” The thing is, for people who don’t necessarily believe in God or a soul, then to say such a thing is to be prejudice. But if you know that God exists and that spiritual worlds exist, then you can start to learn about them.
Oh, for God’s sake! I know I’m older than a lot of the people who post here, but I expect you kids to have at least some freaking common sense!
#1 – For the record, I believe in the existence of a transcendent reality, and I’m not opposed to seeing it as an intelligence. In other words – I believe in God.
#2 – It’s polarized? Either you accept what Chabad teaches – that Jews have immortality inherently, but gentiles dissipate at death – or you’re a secular humanist? These are the only two options? Grow up!
Alan is correct – my nephew makes statements that he insists are representative of “real” Orthodoxy, yet are in reality reflective only of Chabad’s singular outlook. Don’t allow the Chabad rabbi to convince you that they alone can define what is “Torah-true” (a foolish term that was devised by the Haredim to further reinforce the barriers between “us” and “them”).
In my experience, most campus Chabad shluchim do not believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
As I mentioned earlier, I no longer think that this is the belief of a small minority within Chabad. I think that nearly all Lubavitchers “believe” this – in the sense that it becomes part of their consciousness, especially if they grew up in that environment – to one extent or another. Otherwise, why has it been tolerated for so many years by those who claim to be “anti-Meshichists”?
Also, BT said that when he attended Modern Orthodox functions, he felt “judged”. I believe him – and I find it very disturbing. Frankly, I’ve felt that way whenever I’ve attended any Orthodox services – including Chabad’s.

btw cipher,
chabad dis not invent the theory that the sun revovles around the earth, maimonidies did. The difference is, chabad does not pick and chose what to believe what to follow. Futhermore, chabad also di not invent the idea that a jew’s sould is different from that of a gentile. this idea has been presant for generations. chabad has only chosen to stress this point in a time when jewish pride was very low.
thereofre, while i agree thatthis fiight was wrong and gives chabad a black eye, do not rant and rave against a method of service of god you clearly have misunderstood.

What does ‘belief in tzaddikim’ mean, theologically? I mean, I know that the haredim are all about that, but until this moment I thought it meant they recounted stories of these people because they wanted to hold up models of rightious behavior. But ‘believe’ in them? Sounds like Catholics and saints to me….

*sigh* Well, I hope I’m not talking to the wall.
Alan:
you said,
Most religious Jews out there don’t beleive in the Tanya. The Tanya didn’t rise up in a vacuum, it is based completely on works and traditions from before the time of the Ba’al Shemtov, and is completely rooted in Torah. Many non-Chabad Orthodox Jews do learn Tanya, and whether they do or not, doesn’t make the spiritual reality of the world any different. One who does not learn Tanya does learn a majority of the works that it is based on, e.g. TaNa”Ch, Talmud, Zohar, etc.
You’ll notice the Torah never speaks to the issue at all.
No, I didn’t notice that. In fact, the thing that I noticed after studying Tanya, is that the Torah does speak to the issue. But suppose, hypothetically, that I based my Jewish beliefs strictly on the simple meaning of the words in the five books of the Torah… so out the window goes Hanuka, Purim… all of a sudden I don’t know exactly what totafos are, or exactly what a mezuzah is supposed to be. And yet, hopefully you would agree, that all of these concepts are completely rooted in Torah and are there to be seen by the trained eye.
I once had a chabad rabbi tell me that I wasn’t supposed to shave
Maybe it was during the counting of the Omer or something? I find this situation difficult to believe. But, if it did occur, it was certainly a freak incident, since, as I related before, over the last three years I have been involved with a Chabad yeshiva, and no one ever told me I had to grow a beard.
Cipher:
you said,
I was absolutely furious. […] He doesn’t even like non-Orthodox Jews!
Well if his other family members are as non-supportive of his personal choices as you, it’s no surprise! But, you should know that Chabad, even behind closed doors when no non-Orthodox Jews are around, really do preach love of your fellow Jew, no matter what. Not every individual lives up to this ideal, because sometimes they have to deal with haters like you. And it is hard to love someone that hates you for what you believe.
Lubavitch is a cult.
Oh, my! Thank you for informing me. Now I realize that they totally brainwashed me to believe in this crazy cult that my entire family believed in three generations ago, until their children came to America and they were brainwashed by another cult, the cult of the Maskiliim. Dude, if Chabad is a cult, then any religion, and in fact any philosophy, is a cult.
1. For the record, I believe in the existence of a transcendent reality, and I’m not opposed to seeing it as an intelligence. In other words – I believe in God.
I would hate to say something too cliche here (like “Oh, for God’s sake! I know I’m older than a lot of the people who post here, but I expect you kids to have at least some freaking common sense!”) because that would too immature. Common sense… common sense… I do hate to use that term, because there really is not such a thing as common sense. But ok, I’ll pretend that there is, and I’ll use it. My common sense would tell me that if you do indeed believe in God as you claim, then you would be interested in learning about God and the spiritual reality.
When you want to learn something about phsyical reality, do you buy a particle accelerator and start testing things out? Do you access the Hubble Telescope to see deep space? No. You rely on others who have plumbed the depths of physical reality to tell you, in a most abridged form, what they themselves have discovered. And you accept it as fact. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that if a spritual reality exists, then it only exists one way, and the best way to learn about it is from those who have plumbed its depths? Please refrain from the sarcasm; it’s unnecessary. This is the fabric of reality we’re talking about, and if you actually believe, I suggest you take yourself more seriously.
2. It’s polarized? Either you accept what Chabad teaches – that Jews have immortality inherently, but gentiles dissipate at death – or you’re a secular humanist? These are the only two options? Grow up!
Obviously you have never studied the Tanya. Please do not presume to have an opinion about a topic about which you are not informed.
Frankly, I’ve felt that way whenever I’ve attended any Orthodox services – including Chabad’s.
Well, boo-hoo. I felt that way in many Reform synagogues. I felt that way in Orthodox synagogues. I felt that way in Conservative synagogues. Nevertheless, back when my ears were gauged and my hair dyed half black and half white and I dressed rather freakish, I felt welcome and at home at a Chabad shul. And when, a couple years later, I went back to my old Reform synagogue looking more like a frum yid, I literally got dirty looks. From the cantor. During the service.

cipher…
I would just be happy that your nephew DID find something. If you don’t like it, or against it…whatever…just support him. When everyone turns their back on him in your family, you will still be there.
As a teacher of older teens at a reform shul, most of my students are from “interfaith” families. They have nothing in the faith world..just watered down Judaism. I am there to change that.
My only domestic situation I have seen in Chabad is that many of the women are very sub-serviant to the men. But inturn, the men treat the women with great love and respect and care.

Chabad’s Rambam fixation is a constant enigma to me. Rambam would have burned Chabad at the stake for their heresies – Tzaddik worship, late davening, kabballah, etc. etc – had he just been alive enough to find a stake. And yet they insist that he is their authority. funny.
Also: the Tanya is not – never has been, never will be – part of the Oral Torah. It is not binding, non authoritative, has no halakhic weight – and actually never tried to be. it is just another book. there are many, many such books. Had Chabad not been obsessive-compulsive about printing it everywhere in an almost illegible format, to bring their “messiah”, we probably wouldn’t even know it existed.
Most learned Jews have never read the Tanya from cover to cover. its that unimportant.

Cipher,
There is little question–even among most Left-Wing Chaderim–that if Rambam lived after Galileo, he would not have endorsed a literal geocentric world view.

erase that last piece.
“Also: the Tanya is not – never has been, never will be – part of the Oral Torah.”
Yeah, maybe not in your tradition, but then the vilna gaon has no halchic weight in mine, so, you know, whatever.
“It is not binding, non authoritative, has no halakhic weight – and actually never tried to be. ”
Well, the Alter Rebbe did actually write a Shulchan Aruch of his own, with it’s own zmaninm for prayer, and every mikva I’ve ever been to, in Jerusalem and Babylon, mentioned his times next to the GRA’s for sof zman krias shma and shacharis.
So… apparently his random book is as “official” as the other religious madman in Lithuania’s.
>
Which, sure, is true, but it’s also true about Yoseph Caro’s writing, Yehuda Hanasi’s, and the chumash.
>
Most Jews have never read tanach from cover to cover. That says more for the relative priorities of those who train “learned” Jews.
I’m not a huge Tanya fan mself, it’s not R’ Shneur Zalman’s best, most interesting or deep work, that would be Torat Ohr. It was just an attempt to explain Chassidis to the poor lost snag sheep of Lithuania, who can’t hear truth except through didactic proof texts.

And, by the way – Nemo, if you’re still paying attention, you said,
It’s interesting to note how threatened Cipher feels by Chabad and Orthodox Judaism. Makes me think that we’re doing something right!
Firstly, that’s a stupid, hateful thing to say, especially if you’re a Lubavitcher (ahavas yisroel, and all that).
Secondly, I don’t feel threatened by either Orthodoxy or Chabad. As far as Orthodoxy is concerned, I don’t have much of a problem with it in its MO form – I was the only person in our family who thought that allowing my nephew to attend the MO day school was a good idea.
And I don’t feel threatened by Chabad, but I do have serious issues with it, some of which I’ve described.
In equating Chabad with Orthodoxy, you validate Alan’s statement, “Unfortunately, it’s typical of Chabad ‘education’ (& lots of kiruv) that they pretend the rest of the frum world thinks like they do, when there’s nothing farther from the truth.”

“how did it become the most revered work in their cannon?”
because most old Chabad families joined in from Litvish communities, and were very impressed by the lucidity and relative simplicity and piercing consistency of the system it gives over.
It lets it’s people be piously mediocre, taking the pressure off the rigors of religious service, while giving profound meaning to the service that they were doing anyway.
I wouldn’t consider Tanya the most revered work in the cannon, talk to chabadnik scholars, and see what their favorite sepharim are. Being sacramentalized into a mezzuzah type segulah-thing testifies to it’s accesiblity, not it’s nuance or awesomeness.

Cipher-
Don’t pull that Ahavas Yisroel trick on me. You sound like the Israeli who just told me to get off the computer for him and when I told him that I was using it, he replies, “What, you’re not a Chassid?”
Because I believe in Ahavas Yisroel, doesn’t mean that I won’t attack- even violently if should choose- your point of view {see below from Rabbi Soloveitchik}. You’ll have to forgive me if I’m not so open to you’re ideas and for not acting like your contrived version of what a Chabadnik is supposed to be.
The reason that you have no problem with {left-wing?} Modern Orthodoxy is because you feel that it’s unobtrusive in your life. You would think anything wrong with it’s tainted version of Judaism, after all, it’s just a lifestyle with a few extra strictures. In your mind, Orthodox Jewry requires {as an end goal} to only keep Shabbos, Kosher and put on Teffilin a few times per week. Shomer Negiah and other such D’oraisas, have become completely irrelevant because it doesn’t quite fall into the modern agenda. Without any Halacha reasoning, I franky don’t buy this as being a religion. I’d rather scratch the whole thing and truly enjoy life.
If Judaism is a religion, certain things are pretty compulsive. Submission to the Torah and it’s ordinances are quite paramount. Admitting to its beliefs, incredulous as they may be, is basic. If you lack these fundamentals, you’re really not keeping the religion, rather you’re simply celebrating a culture. In reality, it is either all or nothing.
Now, when it comes to particular aspects of Judaism, you constantly, nay consistently, err in differentiating what is Chabad belief and what is a standard Jewish belief. You see, if you belief that regular Jewish belief isn’t defined by the Torah, e.g. that modernity “acclimatizes” Torah beliefs, then there really isn’t much that we can discuss. That happens to not be the Torah’s way as is clearly evidenced by 3,000 years of history. Although it might have been affected and focuses of it shifted, it remains constant.;it is not subject to change.
With that said, if there is/was a part of Torah that has been adapted to suit a certain period of time or something which is disagreeable or not in consonance with modernity, it must be scrutinized and analyzed to understand why and if changes are made. For example, the majority of the 613 Mitzvos aren’t applicable today because we don’t have a Beis Hamikdosh or Semicha. Additionally, Halacha practices aren’t standardized because there is no central determining authority {Sanhedrin} which has been sanctioned by the Torah. Every change must have a reasoning, it cannot be simply for convenience sake. That’s not Frum, that’s called Conservative Judaism.
When dealing with the issue of the Sun, there are certainly different approaches within the authentic Orthodox world. There are some who take the logical approach and explain away the Rambam’s views to conform with our modern understanding. There are also many other who, like Chabad, take Rambam’s words quite literally. Both are non-essential to Jewish belief and therefore I wouldn’t fault someone who, in this instance, doesn’t agree. IMHO, it’s a futile argument considering that no one will ever prove which is correct {point of relativity, etc.}. For that reason, I don’t see why anyone has to promulgate the issue beyond educating our own.
As far as Jewish souls- how do you rationalize the difference {there must be one, right} between a Jew and a non-Jew and why the Jew is obligated in Mitzvos? Or do you not believe that Jews are obligated in Mitzvos to begin with? If so, then what is a Jew and {sorry for the personal attack now} why do you define yourself as Jewish?

Yasher koach, Yoseph Leib. I love to hear the Voice of Reason.
How did my chevra treat you, btw?

1. I’m not against Modern Orthodoxy per se, I’m against “liberal orthodoxy,” which is itself a paradox in terminology.
2. When I said “all or nothing” I was speaking as a thinking person, not as a Chabadnik trying to get you to do a Mitzva.
3. Re: Non Jews: They certainly have a place in the world and receive their due reward for living a committed life with the 7 laws of Noach.

Well, again – I don’t feel threatened. I disagree with Chabad’s methods and the tenets of its belief system. I dislike the condescension and attitude of moral and spiritual superiority wielded by the Chareidi world, and I see Chabad’s attitude as being not much different – merely a softer, gentler version of it. And, as I said, I have a personal issue – I’m angry about my nephew’s situation. He’s been encouraged not to pursue higher education, and, instead, to become a shliach – a position for which I am convinced he is completely unsuited, temperamentally (forget about my personal preference for the moment). There’s simply been no consideration of that.
“Re: Non Jews: They certainly have a place in the world and receive their due reward for living a committed life with the 7 laws of Noach.
You’re saying that they have individual continuity after death? This isn’t what I’ve been told. I’ve heard – not merely from my nephew, but from other sources as well – that the belief is that most of them simply dissipate upon death, or merge back into God, and lose their individuality. Jews, on the other hand, have individual continuity. An extraordinarily righteous gentile can be granted continuity (“life after death”), although it’s an extremely rare occurrence. A Jew, by contrast, has to be incredibly wicked to be denied continuity. Apparently, God grades on a curve.
Now, I’m not disagreeing with you – I’m sure you know more about it than I do – I’m describing what I’ve been told. And, my understanding has been that this is the scheme described in the Tanya. Is this incorrect, or is there more diversity within Chabad, concerning this belief, than I have been given to understand? Because I think that this is pretty much the scenario they’re teaching in the yeshivot.