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Must See TV

I just watched the Frontline documentary “Israel’s Next War?”
It focusses on the Kahanists, the Hilltop Youth and Jewish terrorists whose primary goals are to rid “greater Israel” of non-Jews, to rid Israel of Western influence, and to establish a theocratic monarchic state.
The film is extraordinarily well done and very revealing (and very very frightening). In one interview, a Jew who had tried to blow up a Palestinian girls’ school admits in a calm tone that his approach was not different from that of Hamas. Wow.
In my opinion, these radical elements are the greatest danger to the future of Israel and to the well being of the Jewish people. Those of you who read this blog and identify with right wing ideology need to see this film in order to understand that our religion can be bastardized from the right as well as from the left– you are the ones with the clout and knowledge to reign in this fringe, and I challenge you to do just that.
Everyone else should see it too. You can watch it online (and read some interesting articles/interviews) here.

73 thoughts on “Must See TV

  1. I’m in the middle of watching the series.
    You kind of wonder that if Kahane was still alive and ‘legal’, then him and his people would have to play by the same rules as the rest. But since these guys, and their tens of thousands of supporters, are told that they have no right to play the ‘democracy’ game, and officially radicalized by the government and the media, then they are pushed to the extreme even more since they feel that they have no outlet.
    If the kahane group was still around, then they’d have to be a bit more responsible, but since they are outlawed, and everyone who thinks like them is practically ostarcized, then I suppose the feeling is that they have nothing to lose. Look at Feiglin’s group. The left wants him banned, and the media tries vehemently to delegitimize him as well. So is it a surprise that they subsequently expect ‘provocations’?

  2. … as if this handful of people is REALLY the main threat to peace in the region.
    Not the organized Palestinian militias, operating in the open, who manufacture/smuggle surface-to-air missiles and open talk about driving the Jews into the sea.
    Naaah, it’s those hippies on the hills who are the real threat.
    Manufactured reports like these also started appearing during the Oslo years, in a orchestrated attempt to demonize those opposed to concessions. The Israel Broadcast Authority broadcast the infamous “inductionâ€? into the “Eyal underground cellâ€? – a total fabrication that was staged by Shabak agent provaceteur Avishai Raviv, and confirmed as false by the government committee that investigated the Rabin assassination.
    That was in 1994, if I remember correctly – and we ALL know that those knitted kippahs have caused ALL the violence and unpleasantness since then…
    The false underground was hyped this week with shock headlines about “tens of thousands who will attack Arabs on the Temple Mount”. Only 50 or so showed up.
    Money quote from today’s Jerusalem post:
    Jerusalem police had announced weeks ago that they
    were barring the group for holding their planned mass rally at the site, a factor which, together with the stringent security lock down in place in the Old City, clearly contributed to the dearth of protesters in the crowd.
    – – – – – – – – –
    Ooooooh, they sound pretty scary to me!!! And such disrespect of the rule of law, too…
    From the same article:
    Throughout the day, 31 far-right activists were detained by police in the Old City… Most of the detainees – including 13 minors – were subsequently released, but ordered to stay out of the city for between 12 hours and five days.
    – – – – – – – – –
    … so it’s a bunch of teenagers off of school (Passover break began this week). And the police gave everyone their photo-ops – crazy kippa guy being dragged away – then released them all with a finger-shaking “nu, nu, nu”.
    Seems to fit the pattern we have seen since Oslo – wild rhetoric of denunciation, trumped up fears way beyond the actual behavior, showy arrests for nothing, quiet release after the photo-op has been clinched. In the aggregate, an innocent group is demonized.
    It’s easy enough to sell this kind of story to the journalists and Ronens of the world because it speaks to their stereotypes, prejudices and fears. That’s how most successful propaganda works – it starts with widely held perceptions and gradually pulls people further in a certain direction, always building on what “everybodyâ€? already “knows”.
    It would be a pity if American Jews get taken in – but only the most left-leaning Israelis will fall for this a second time.

  3. “manufactured reports”
    Are you fucking kidding me? And anyone who identifies with the radical nut-jobs featured in the frontline episode aren’t “right-wing” they are idiots or wanna-be nut-jobs (probably both). Kahane was a racist who advocated terrorism.
    If these lunatics kill another PM or derail dingengagement “peacefully” (that is, by threatening violence in large numbers) then Israel *will be* just another shitty third-world country. Let’s just call it Jewistan.

  4. “But since these guys, and their tens of thousands of supporters, are told that they have no right to play the ‘democracy’ game…”
    Josh, these guys are fascists in every sense of the definition. Fascists are in essence anti-democratic even if they achieve power democratically (e.g. National Socialism in Germany)

  5. Last Jew,
    I hope you ain’t as naive as you seem here.
    Do you really think that this ‘documentary’ was an accurate portrayal of these pioneering folks. Was Natanel Ozery given the credit he deserves for making empty hilltops flourish while the rest of us live with running water, internet, and air-conditioned offices?
    I suggest that you actually meet one of these fine people in person before you judge from sound bites and edited interviews. I promise you that on Jewschool we go deeper and more realistic than some TV producer cares to do.

  6. josh,
    When did the Kahane cult ever respect Israeli law? I understand their big complaint was always with the secular rule of law instead of halacha. In which case, the Kahane cult would necessarily exist in opposition to secular law itself, whether they were outlawed or not.

  7. “Was Natanel Ozery given the credit he deserves for making empty hilltops flourish…”
    And Mussolini had the trains running on time…you just don’t get it.
    Do you even know what a fascist is?

  8. From an interview with the director:
    “The people I portray in the film, and many like them, weren’t shocked by what they saw. They felt I represented what they believed in, although I’m told they didn’t like the tone.”
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/

  9. This may not need to be said, but in case it does…
    Yes, there are problem people among Israel’s Jews, but the big difference between these guys and Palestinian terrorists is two-fold. 1. We arrest these guys, unlike the PA. and 2. These guys form a SMALL minority within Israel’s Jewish population, and terrorists are a much larger percentage of the Palestinian population.
    Peace. (and I mean it)
    J

  10. Considering that these “scary jewish terrorists” killed no one, how is it again they they are the bigget danger to Israel? Maybe we should worry about the ACTUAL murderers?? The arabs. Document that.

  11. Fun Joel:
    Look at your argument– the logic is flawed. You’re pointing out differences between Israeli society and Palestinian society, and I agree with you. But the difference btw these guys and the Pal. terrorists is the society in which they happen to operate? I don’t buy it for a second.
    Ben-David:
    I never said these people are the major obstacle to peace, I said they are the greatest danger to the future of Israel and the well being of the Jewish people. These people are certainly rugged individuals who are settling the hills, but they are also war mongers (watch the film– this is central to their ideology), racists and anti-democratic activists. Worst of all, they believe that these positions are consistent with Jewish values.
    It’s too bad there aren’t more “Ronens” in this world, jackass– it’s not a hard sell when there are members of these groups in jail for attempted murder. Watch the film before you say another word, because clearly you haven’t.
    Josh:
    WATCH THE FILM. Ozery was really not portrayed very negatively at all.

  12. settlers make me so fucking angry. their houses are patrolled by israeli security forces all the time, and their sons are allowed to carry semi-automatic rifles cause they live in occupied territory. what the fuck is that? not only do they antagonize the whole palestinian population by living right above them and flashing their fancy guns, but they waste all of their sacred israel’s money and defense forces while they’re at it. they only spend funds and expose the rest of the israeli population to attacks that the settlers may incite. religious folk are so oblivious to the real issues of economics and security and even morality. the land was promised to them by some God, so they must have it. that’s all they seem to care about.
    correct me if i’m wrong… of course.

  13. As for the oft-cited “they want to push us into the sea,” note that 65% of Israelis when last polled support expelling the Arabs (using the “transfer” euphemism) from all of Eretz Yisrael. It is Palestinians who find their slice of the land continually decreasing through confiscations, illegal land purchases, forged land sales, fences, and Israeli-only roads. These practices are not much challenged by the vast majority of Israelis and Israel lobbies abroad. The scruffy youth seizing the hilltops are merely the vanguard for land seizure for the 80% of settlers who cite “quality of life” as their main reason for living in the territories in contravention of international law and convention.

  14. Prodly:
    Get a grip. Nobody is excusing Palestinian terror here (at least I’m not). You need to be able to confront a dangerous part of our own community seriously. According to the film, 7 Palestinians have been killed by these settlers in random acts of violence/retaliation. Dozens of other attempts have been thwarted, including the situation with the girls’ school. Many occurences of vandalism and property destruction as well.
    They are dangerous because their ideology is extremist, and they are willing to resort to violence. You don’t consider civil war dangerous?
    The filmmakers are all Israeli– I doubt that that they are all major leftists (though I don’t know), but I do think that mainstream Israeli society senses that these people are a major threat to their way of life, their international standing, their value systems, their democracy, their hopes for peace, etc. That’s why they wanted to get the word out.

  15. “It is Palestinians who find their slice of the land continually decreasing through confiscations, illegal land purchases, forged land sales, fences, and Israeli-only roads.”
    I would add that these things also have something to do with Palestinian losses over the years: siding with the Nazis, losing 3 wars after WWII, failing to establish a government capable of peaceful negotiation over 50 years of defacto self-rule, and using terrorism as a political tool. And someone more knowledgeable than I could most likely add to that list.

  16. Look Ronen, as far as the documentary goes, it was clearly biased againt Israel. They didn’t even MENTION arab terror? Isnt that a little sketchy?
    You need to look at where these “Jewish Terorists” are coming from. They arent some insane mindless idiots trying to convert people or even trying to run the arabs out. They are trying to protect their own because they Israeli government isnt doing a good enough job.
    BTW I don’t believe any of those so called terrorists were ever charged with any of the so called ‘7 murders’

  17. Last of the Jews wrote: “[Palestinians] siding with the Nazis
    you know that’s not true
    prody wrote: “Look Ronen, as far as the documentary goes, it was clearly biased againt Israel. They didn’t even MENTION arab terror?”
    Not only did the documentary mention Arab terror several times, they showed blood-covered victims of Arab bombings, shootings etc. I guess you blocked that out. But how much time should PBS spend talking about Arab terror in a documentary which is about Israeli terror?
    p.s. your comment reminded me of a letter I read on the PBS website:
    Dear FRONTLINE,
    The program you aired about Israeli extemist groups was interesting. However, I think you should give equal time to describing the exteme Palestinian groups.
    The group you spoke of certainly does not represent a majority in the hope for peace between the Israelis and the Arabs
    Torin Rutner
    West Orange, NJ
    FRONTLINE’s editors respond:
    Among FRONTLINE’s programs over recent years that have dealt in full, or in part, with Palestinian extremists and Islamic extremists and their terrorist threat, are the following reports:
    Al Qaeda’s New Front Jan 2005
    House of Saud Feb 2005
    Son of Al Qaeda April 2004
    In Search of Al Qaeda Nov 2002
    Shattered Dreams of Peace June 2002
    The Siege of Bethlehem June 2002
    Battle for the Holy Land April 2002
    Inside the Terror Network Jan 2002
    Trail of a Terrorist Oct. 2001
    Hunting Bin Laden 1999
    prodly continued:
    “You need to look at where these “Jewish Terorists” are coming from. They arent some insane mindless idiots trying to convert people or even trying to run the arabs out. They are trying to protect their own because they Israeli government isnt doing a good enough job. “
    Don’t people say the same thing about the Palestinian terrorists all the time ?

  18. Prodly, did you actually watch it? First of all, it was not biased against Israel. It was a documentary ABOUT an Israeli fringe group, not about the Arab-Israeli conflict or about anything else. What bias does that show? It’s a fair subject for a documentary. Second, it DID mention and show scenes of Arab terror (in the discussion of the intifada). Third, the brother of one of the Bat Ayin terrorists pointed the Shabak to a weapons cache, and those weapons were matched to the 7 murders through ballistic testing. Don’t play stupid, please!
    These people are trying to convert others to their cause, they are trying to foment an Arab-Israeli war (by their own admission), and they are trying to destroy Israeli democracy. I never said mindless idiots, but they are, to put it mildly, very misguided Jews.

  19. “I would add that these things also have something to do with Palestinian losses over the years.. and using terrorism as a political tool.”
    Why is that, I wonder? It’s worked for the Zionists:
    “Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war… We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is
    for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances
    of today…”
    Yitzhak Shamir
    I would add that the unilateral pullout reinforces in the minds of militants that violent resistance works for the Palestinians, and nothing else has.

  20. Brown – FIrst off, the ‘palestinians’ dont have a country to protect. They can go disperse to Egypt and Jordan if they have a problem with following the rules.
    Ronen – I did in fact watch it. “These people are trying to convert others to their cause, they are trying to foment an Arab-Israeli war (by their own admission), and they are trying to destroy Israeli democracy.”
    Wake up! The war has already begun. They want to win the war and keep their families safe in their homeland and frankly so do I. And FYI Sharon is the one destroting democracy.

  21. “It is Palestinians who find their slice of the land continually decreasing through confiscations, illegal land purchases, forged land sales, fences, and Israeli-only roads.”
    I would add that these things also have something to do with Palestinian losses over the years: siding with the Nazis, losing 3 wars after WWII, failing to establish a government capable of peaceful negotiation over 50 years of defacto self-rule, and using terrorism as a political tool. And someone more knowledgeable than I could most likely add to that list.

    So… Israeli policies of refusing to allow Palestinians to build on their own land, and of demolishing the houses they do build when they get frustrated with the Byzantine permit system which is explicitly designed to disallow Palestinian building, is the fault of the Mufti in Berlin? And not Israeli attempts to get as much of the West Bank as possible as “facts on the ground” before they’re finally forced into a final-status agreement?
    p.s. As for “the Palestinians siding with the Nazis,” one might point out that it wasn’t the Germans or the Italians who had spent the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries busily infiltrating and colonizing Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, and Lebanon. It was the Allies, primarily France and Britain. This is hardly ever considered in blanket denunciations of who “the Palestinians sided with” (leaving out the fact that there is really very little evidence either way on the question when it comes to the majority of the Palestinian population).

  22. John Brown:
    Umm, the Arab world DID in fact side with the Nazis. Now, whether it was in favor of genocidal fascist ideology or simply as supporting an opponent to the people colonizing them (ie the British), that’s debatable. There were small, short operating concentration camps in places like Libya (very small, and only open a couple of months) and most of the Jews who died in North Africa from the Nazis did not die there, but rather being turned in by their neighbors and shot by the Nazis.
    As for the original topic of this post: I wouldn’t label the Jewish terrorists interviewed in the documentary as the real obstacle to peace; they’re friggin’ nuts, but they’re too small to really gain a foothold.

  23. Brown:
    Last of the Jews wrote: “[Palestinians] siding with the Nazis”
    “you know that’s not true”
    That the Grand Mufti of Palestine sided with Hitler after the Balfour Declaration is old news to credible historians like Benni Morris.
    But as for widespread support among Palestinians for the Mufti, Sam says “there is really very little evidence either way on the question when it comes to the majority of the Palestinian population”
    Indeed, there were no Palestinian historians at the time.

  24. an insightful letter to Frontline from their site:
    Dear FRONTLINE,
    Why no mention of the Rabbis and the Yeshivot that are indoctrinating and inciting these zealots, and the sources of the financial support of these Yeshivot? Why wasn’t the venerable Sephardic Rabbi sitting next to a released suspect identified?
    When Arabs build unauthorized houses the authorities bulldoze them. Why are the hilltop settlements exempt from this same treatment?
    Why weren’t the Labor and Likud leaders identified, who ok’d the construction of these settlements over the past 35 years?
    How about an estimate of the financial cost of these settlements to the Israeli taxpayers, including the subsidies, the tax benefits to settlers, and the cost to the IDF for protecting them?
    Bernard Bloom

  25. Sam wrote, “So… Israeli policies of refusing to allow Palestinians to build on their own land, and of demolishing the houses they do build when they get frustrated with the Byzantine permit system which is explicitly designed to disallow Palestinian building, is the fault of the Mufti in Berlin?”
    No that’s ridiculous. I’m only saying that history doesn’t start in 1948.
    You’re always saying this or that, is or isn’t, the ‘fault’ of someone. That’s a very misguided approach to understanding this conflict.

  26. Indeed, there were no Palestinian historians at the time.
    Maybe not in the strict academic sense we use “historian” today. But there was Ruhi al-Khalidi, who wrote a history and analysis of Zionism, and of course there was George Antonius and his Arab Awakening which was a history of the Arab nationalist movement.
    Unless you meant that there were no “Palestinians” at the time, which would be a bit of a divergence from the discussion. Still, historians have been able to reconstruct much about Palestinian attitudes towards lots of things, including among the fellaheen, as for example Ted Swedenburg (who’s an anthropologist, but whose work has been published and used by reputable historians) has in his study of the 1936-39 thawra, Memories of Revolt.
    As for things being the “fault” of someone… well, sure. I actually tend to take a more global view of almost everything bad done by everyone on all sides. There is an immediate sense of “fault,” in which each crime is to be attributed to the specific individual who chose to commit it. Then there is a larger sense, in which you look at the social forces that drove, allowed, permitted, or encouraged that to take place. I don’t think I’ve been simplistic.

  27. Sam:
    There were no Palestinians writing about Palestinian history by today’s standards or Thucydides’ standards, i.e in any sense of the word ‘history’ as we understand it conventionally or academically. I’m not talking about whether or not there were “Palestinians”. I’m just stating, uncontroversially, that there is no Palestinian account of history before the state of Israel. I’ve never heard of any of the authors you cite (and neither has google for that matter) but none them appear to be a Palestinian person writing about Palestinian history.

  28. Sam:
    “I don’t think I’ve been simplistic.”
    In responding to my comment addressing “xisnotx” you were.

  29. Welcome to another episode of “Ronen versus Reality”…
    Ronen wrote:
    According to the film, 7 Palestinians have been killed by these settlers in random acts of violence/retaliation. Dozens of other attempts have been thwarted, including the situation with the girls’ school. Many occurences of vandalism and property destruction as well.
    – – – – – – – – –
    You’re kidding, right?
    Do you know how many Muslims the Hindus kill in “retaliation” for public bombings like those done by “our” Palestinians? Do you know the extent of Pali-on-Pali violence between clans? Do you know how many “collaborators” are killed each year?
    This is a major threat?
    But about this, you write:
    They are dangerous because their ideology is extremist, and they are willing to resort to violence. You don’t consider civil war dangerous?
    and:
    I do think that mainstream Israeli society senses that these people are a major threat to their way of life, their international standing, their value systems, their democracy, their hopes for peace, etc.
    – – – – – – – – – –
    Ariel Sharon dismissed and fired ministers who disagreed with him, violated his own coalition agreements, MKs have resigned in protest, his own party has repeatedly voted against him – Don’t you think THOSE things are a leeeetle teeensy bit more ominous to Israeli “value systems, democracy, etc.” than 50 hillbilly hasids?
    Apparently many Israelis do: over 20,000 Israel soldiers and reservists have signed petitions refusing to abet the expulsion of Jews from their homes. Don’t you think that is more of a danger to the social fabric of Israel – or maybe you believe all these men are taking orders from some stubble-faced Breslover on a hilltop somewhere?
    The Palestinians were recently caught smuggling advanced weaponry into Gaza and the West Bank, and are talking openly about the war after the withdrawal. Given their track record, don’t you think “most Israelis” view this as just a TINY bit more of a… *concern* than 50 losers?
    More Ronen:
    First of all, it was not biased against Israel. It was a documentary ABOUT an Israeli fringe group, not about the Arab-Israeli conflict or about anything else. What bias does that show?
    – – – – – – – – – – –
    1) The very fact that the focus is narrowed to Jewish zealots is biased – it is the epitome of the most powerful news bias – deciding what gets left on the cutting room floor.
    Such bias would be obvious – and odius – at any time, purely because of the gap in numbers and popularity between this handful of Israelis and the large, popular, powerful Pali terror armies.
    Issuing such a tunnel-visioned report when the Palis are rearming with heavy weaponry like surface-to-air anti-aircraft missiles – is an even more obvious distortion of reality in service of a political agenda. Such a focus gives an entirely lopsided perception of who is most realistically, methodically planning to execute the next war. The editorial decision itself is evidence of bias.
    Is similar time given to coverage of Palistinian re-arming and recruitment?
    Is similar coverage given to other aspects – such as the personal trauma that the Gaza settlers face – or is all the coverage of settlers restricted to demonizing imagery and stories such as this one?
    Framing the story to serve idealogy – that is the most powerful media bias. Creation of a false context also counts as deception. That’s what reporting like this does.

  30. Ben-David you’re being ridiculous…
    “Is similar time given to coverage of Palistinian re-arming and recruitment?’
    Palestinian vigilante-justice, terrorism and threats to government officials isn’t news. Fascist parties like Hamas are quite popular among Palestinians. However, Israel is a sovereign state with one of the longest uninterupted democracies in the *world*. Therefore, radical Jewish fascists, regardless of their success in carrying out terrorist attacks, is news. And if they manage to kill another PM, Israel may as well be a third-world shithole. If that’s not interesting to you, then you don’t care about Israel.
    Dog bites man (not news)
    Man bites dog (news)

  31. First of all the Arabs did side with the Nazis. They wanted the Nazis to come for the Jews in the Middle East:
    http://www.jerusalem-archives….
    Second, after the Gaza forced expulsion you will see not just a few thousand but tens of thousands of Kahane supporters.
    So Ronen you are right to be scared.

  32. …Vocal and active Kahane supporters as opposed to the quiet disenfranchised 1/3-1/2 of the population.

  33. Last…
    I can’t comment on the other authors, but Ted Swedenburg wrote a very interesting piece on Islamic Hip Hop in Global Noise (ed. Tony Mitchell). I’m shocked that you couldn’t find him on google.
    He is not a Palestinian, and that piece certainly isn’t about Palestinian history, but he does exist.

  34. Ben David:
    The logical flaws in your argument are so so so many. I’d love to pick you apart, except, see, I don’t give enough of a shit. You’re clearly blinded by your own opinions, and I think it’s very sad that you are incapable of condemning the disgusting actions of these kahanists vis a vis Jews, Judaism and Palestinians.
    I’ve said my piece. Those of you who aren’t completely insane will understand that my opinions are based on Jewish values, Zionist values, love of Israel and love of humanity.

  35. Ronen,
    You are very good at using the words “ass” and “jackass” in your arguments.
    The fact is that you wouldn’t know a Jewish value if it hit you in the head.
    Jewish values are remaining true to our father in heaven. What you espouse are your own values.
    I love God and I will remain true to Him. You and others here want to create God in your own image. What you want is what God should conform to. I want to be in His image and to be true to Him.

  36. Wow– you think I’m good at something? whodathunk!? (see, you’re a jackass, and so it’s hard for me not to call you on it– I guess I could try to use a more polite term, but really no word expresses my feelings more perfectly)
    Anyway, I think derech eretz is a Jewish value, I think tikkun olam is a Jewish value, I think ba’al tachshit is a Jewish value and I think tzedaka is too. Call me a psycho self-hater, but I think trying to blow up innocent children is NOT in line with Jewish values.
    A “means justifies the end” approach to achieving redemption is not in line either.
    It’s so amusing to read a punk like yourself who is thoroughly convinced that you are a better person than I am. You actually spent an entire paragraph arguing that your spiritual worldview is more “correct” than mine. What do you know about my spirituality, huh? A big FU for that Schmo. Has it not occured to you that I may, MAY, have spent some time thinking about these issues? Let’s put it this way, I’d rather ask a true God to conform to what I believe is right than be true to a God others have created for me (see (a href=”http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/t/t0118.htm”>Bereshit 18 for more on that).

  37. Actually you called Ben-David a “Jackass” above. I guess you can’t keep track…
    Hmmm you pick a few “nice Jewish values” that “you agree with.”
    Now ain’t that sweet.
    You wrote: “I’d rather ask a true God to conform to what I believe is right than be true to a God others have created for me…”
    The first half of that is true: you do ask God to conform to you. The second half though you need to explain more fully. Who created God for you?
    I don’t necessarily think that I am a better person than you, only that your knowledge about Jewish values and Judaism is lacking.

  38. Jewish values and Judaism are fluid– as much as you want them to be set in stone, they’re not. So the fact that my OPINIONS are different from your OPINIONS has nothing to do with KNOWLEDGE. It’s that kind of arrogance that provokes the name calling. You didn’t go to school with me, you don’t know what I know, you’re completely off base and unjustified in your accusation. It’s just inappropriate.
    I don’t know how you can live with yourself if you truly believe that trying to murder innocent children is consistent with Jewish values. By sticking up for these extremists, you are embarassing klal Yisrael.
    Nobody created God for me Schmo, I was referring to YOU. So ask yourself the same question.

  39. I just want to thank Meir Kahane and especially his devoted followers for inspiring me to stop the self-loathing and self-hatred that has consumed me for my entire life. Joe Schmo you sir have changed my life. Never before have I read such deep and complex thoughts on a website. Your insight is truly worthy of Rabbi Kahane himself, were he alive he’d give you a big smooch for all of the yidden you are saving from ignorance and despair. May God shower blessings upon you. Holy shit! You just might be Moshiac! SOMEONE CALL CHABAD AND TELL THEM THE MOSHIAC ISN’T THE REBBE, IT’S JOE SCHMO!!
    No, seriously, I’m being serious. Thank you.

  40. The wish to “establish a theocratic monarchic state” in Zion is expressed thrice daily (in the Amidah) in the prayers of religious Jews throughout the world. It is one of the Rambam’s 13 principles of faith – Ani Maamin. In the meantime, till the Moshiach arrives, we must acknowledge that the existance of the modern State of Israel, is a modern day miracle brought about by the murder of six million Jewish souls. Sorry to that guy in NZ to have to remind the world again.

  41. Further Adventures of Ronen in Reality-Land….
    quote:
    The logical flaws in your argument are so so so many. I’d love to pick you apart, except, see, I don’t give enough of a shit.
    – – – – – – – – –
    … except that he comes back to the thread to deliver several lectures to Schmo – once he’s succesfully shifted the discussion off of the facts and into the average leftie’s favorite domain – My Glorious Correctness (you all know the chorus: “I’m Offended By That! I’m Offended By That!”)
    Let’s see now, we’ve got:
    my opinions are based on Jewish values, Zionist values, love of Israel and love of humanity
    – – – – – –
    … hey don’t wrap yourself in too many flags at once, you may choke in there… or stifle from all the hot air…
    Why not take 5 minutes and pick apart ANY ONE of my factual claims – instead of running away with rhetorical sh*t soaking your pants.
    You latched onto a puff-piece that focused on a handful of crazies THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN APREHENDED, and gone along with the obvious propaganda slant of equating them with the massive, widely supported, politically powerful Pali terror apparatus.
    Go ahead – counter ONE of my factual charges with A FACTUAL RESPONSE. You’ve obviously got enough time and interest to argue with schmo about nothing.
    Pathetic.
    Ben-David

  42. FWIW,
    I think that of the year I’ve been on Jewschool, this has got to be the most pathetic chitchat of all.
    From tell me what you think’s insightful = “settlers make me so fucking angry”
    What if you replace settlers with queers, or spics, or arsim, or whatever? Who cares what you think, you’re too good for this blog.
    To a skitzo sausage that’s trying to be sarcastic or humourous, whatever…
    and finally
    To the last nigger’s equally eloquent “I think Ben-David is pathetic.” GOOD FOR YOU!!! 🙂
    The rest of you guys are also seemto be off the past day – benda, schmo, ronen, and johnbrown too (if no one is relating to him, then he’s definitely not in his prime).
    I hope whne y’all read this, you’ve had a good rest.

  43. Last,
    I hope you’re not actually using Googleability to decide whether people really exist or not. Anyway, George Antonius is pretty famous, he met with Ben-Gurion on a couple of occasions, and Googling him for me turned up quite a bit. Heck, searching for Ruhi al-Khalidi turned up relevant results too. So I’m not sure which Google you’re using. Even if Google hadn’t turned them up, though, they were still Palestinians writing about Palestinian history. Because of the time period they were in, though, they tended to think of themselves as Palestinian Arabs writing about Arab history in Palestine. But still.

  44. OK Ben David:
    First of all, I didn’t shift the discussion at all– and it was not shifted to MY correctness, but to Schmo’s perceived correctness. This discussion isn’t about correctness, it’s about emotions and opinions to a large degree. Second of all, this was not a “puff piece.” This was a very good film. Nobody’s exaggerating the size of this group– but those who have been apprehended are not the whole story. Their actions are born of an ideology, and that ideology is being propagated in these hills by these groups, and it worries me. Their values are severely contrary to mine, and when they speak in the name of Judaism I am deeply frustratred. Doesn’t that make sense? It has nothing to do with their size, but rather their potential to affect my life as a Jew and a Zionist. Third, I didn’t equate their actions to Palestinian terrorists’, THEY THEMSELVES did!
    So OK, here you go– this isn’t a FACTUAL argument, but a LOGICAL argument (I didn’t dispute you on facts, pay attention):
    I do think that mainstream Israeli society senses that these people are a major threat to their way of life, their international standing, their value systems, their democracy, their hopes for peace, etc.
    – – – – – – – – – –
    Ariel Sharon dismissed and fired ministers who disagreed with him, violated his own coalition agreements, MKs have resigned in protest, his own party has repeatedly voted against him – Don’t you think THOSE things are a leeeetle teeensy bit more ominous to Israeli “value systems, democracy, etc.” than 50 hillbilly hasid

    You see, you responded to my initial comment with something COMPLETELY unrelated. This isn’t about Sharon’s political indiscretions. Those may be many (generally I’m glad he did what he did… but that’s a difference of opinion, and I certainly understand your perspective); brining up Sharon doesn’t diminish my point in the slightest. It’s a red herring, irrelevant, getting people to focus on something else. See what I mean? you’re throwing one issue against another, without addressing the problem I was raising, about THIS group. We can debate Sharon somewhere else.
    Every point you raise is likewise a red herring. The fact that the media chose to cover this doesn’t make it untrue (I certainly believe there is a lot of information to cover, including Palestinian terror and corruption, including other parts of Israeli society, etc… but so what? these filmmakers covered what they covered, so let’s DEAL WITH IT). The fact that the Palestinian gov’t and terrorists are problematic doesn’t contradict the notion that these people are too.
    Again, the threat they pose is not mostly physical– they are small in number– but their ideology is as deep a bastardization of Jewish values as the Bergs and their “kabbalah”. It worries me, it makes me uncomfortable. You focus on me and my “alternative reality,” but your attacks are essentially weak. Every long time Jew Schooler knows me to be a middle-of-the-roadist.. . grouping me as a “leftie” or a John Brown co-conspirator is just inaccurate. So it’s hard for me to take you seriously, and that’s why I was avoiding responding to your red herrings… see?

  45. Listen Ronen, I think the documentary was interesting and informative. Thanks for posting it. I keep coming back to Jewschool only because once in a while, when there is something interesting, it’s very interesting. Fuck all these stupid shitty comments. Your post was good. Thank You.

  46. Listen Ronen, I think the documentary was interesting and informative. Thanks for posting it. I keep coming back to Jewschool only because once in a while, when there is something interesting, it’s very interesting. Fuck all these stupid shitty comments. Your post was good. Thank You.

  47. Gee whiz, josh. You could have spared us all the whining, risen above all the “pathetic chit chat,” as you see it, and dealt with the question I asked you yesterday. Life is full of choices.

  48. To a skitzo sausage that’s trying to be sarcastic or humourous, whatever…

    That really hurt my feelings. You are a big meanie. I know it’s not easy to be the smartest and most clever anonymous poster on a website, but you don’t gotta rub it in our faces.
    Then again, pathetic is as pathetic does and it’s funny you took a year to realize that. Good for you!

  49. Zionista,
    I apologize, you deserved a response though all I can say is that I don’t really know. I am not the kahane expert, but making an insinuation like “When did the Kahane cult ever respect Israeli law? is not that intelligent.
    On one hand, they used to have a member of parliament which use to carry some weight unlike the open corruption these days. So according to recent polls, kahane would have 5-6 members, wouldn’t that take some of the steam off the street? I mean, they were banned, they spray painted graffitti with their cool logo that even Dan had in his Jewschool collage a while back, and they came out with books and parsha sheets, but were continually harrassed by police.

  50. Josh is correct,
    I have a right to my opinions. I don’t agree with Ronen. I feel that my opinions are Jewish and are Zionist and that Ronen’s are not. If he or anyone wants to discuss it opinion by opinion with quotes from the Torah or just logic – that’s what Jewschool is for.
    The point is that notwithstanding what Ronen says I have a right to my opinions.
    In Israel I and hundreds of thousands of others are disenfranchised by the government. We are told that we cannot voice what we feel. Is it any wonder that I emphasize with them?
    That documentary made me happy that there are people who will not roll over and die while I see Israel being destroyed.
    This phenomenon will only grow as, unfortunately, more Jews are killed. Logic (aside for the Torah) tells me that there will be no peace and that after this expulsion, people (including Josh) will swarm to Kahane for the only alternative.
    I understand Ronen and those like him.
    He wrote: “the threat they pose is not mostly physical…their ideology …It worries me, it makes me uncomfortable.”
    So, he seeks to supress those who make him uncomfortable. That is OK with him and when Sharon “dismissed and fired ministers who disagreed with him” Ronen writes: “I’m glad he did what he did.”
    Ronen you want to suppress my opinions and my rights?
    You should know that one day my opinions will the opinions of most people and if you don’t like them you had better convince people as to why the opinions are wrong and why they shouldn’t change their minds and agree with those opinions.
    Unfortunately for you, your seeking to suppress and oppress those who disagree with you -will not work.

  51. Sam, great little piece that ties up Ruhi al-Khalidi, the Grand Mufti of Palestine and German imperialism in the middle east. (I did fuck up my original google search.) Highly recommended (besides the parts where they feel compelled to refer to the “Zionist evil” etc.)
    http://www.jerusalemites.org/l

  52. So, he seeks to supress those who make him uncomfortable.
    When did I do that? that’s just silly talk. You’re apparently mildly paranoid.
    I guess that murderous intentions driven by revenge should make me feel just great.
    Sigh… OK Schmo. Whatever you say.

  53. Ronen:
    You responded to my initial comment with something COMPLETELY unrelated. This isn’t about Sharon’s political indiscretions…. It’s a red herring, irrelevant, getting people to focus on something else…. You’re throwing one issue against another, without addressing the problem I was raising, about THIS group.
    – – – – – – – – – – – –
    But I don’t disagree with you in feeling these people are distorting Jewish values. That is not the point I am arguing. My point is that there are other big stories, big – and powerful – groups that are much more immediate challenges to both our physical peace and our values.
    They are also more newsworthy.
    And if the media – and people like you – ignore those stories and focus instead on a handful of crazies, something is wrong/dishonest about that tunnel vision.
    You wrote quite movingly:
    Nobody’s exaggerating the size of this group– but those who have been apprehended are not the whole story…. Their values are severely contrary to mine, and when they speak in the name of Judaism I am deeply frustratred…. It has nothing to do with their size, but rather their potential to affect my life as a Jew and a Zionist.
    – – – – – – – – – – –
    … and if PBS had not shone its spotlight on them, what would be their “potential to affect my life as a Jew and a Zionist”? Nil.
    What opportunity would they have had to “speak in the name of Judaism” without PBS’s video cameras? None.
    They have no influence on the Yesha Council, and the youth of the settler movement has largely ostracised them.
    Their appeal may have increased slightly due to Sharon’s heavy-handed stifling of dissent. Did the report connect their radicalization to the frustration of those who cannot protest, whose votes have been countermanded? Such an angle would put these minnows in proper news-reporting perspective – as just one facet of a large event.
    Was that done?
    You wrote that “nobody’s exagerrating the size of this group” – but that is exactly what PBS did, by giving them such attention.
    In our media age, it is imperative to look at the overall context in which this report was aired. Is it being paired with a similar profile of Palis who refuse to lay down THEIR arms? With reporting on the ongoing Pali attempts to build an army? Do PBS viewers get a picture of the conflict that reflects the real balance – or imbalance – of extremism and terror between the two sides?
    It may be that you are happy that people you disagree with got the stick. But if you truly are concerned about Israel’s place among the nations, you have to look at the larger picture. We just recently had a thread about the academic boycott of Israeli professors – and Assaf S. was twisting and turning, trying to distance himself from the obvious fact: when Israelis peddle dirt against other Israelis, it excuses/facilitates our enemy’s propaganda.
    What makes this story suddenly newsworthy? Have there recently been more vigilante killings? Has the Yesha Council embraced these guys, given them legitimacy (as was done recently for Hamas)?
    Nope, nope, nope.
    Is the weight given to this story in proportion to these people’s real power, their real role in events?
    Nope.
    Then this is proganda. It misrepresents not just Israelis in general, but the settler movement in particular. Stories of this sort don’t just happen – they are pitched to journalists, sources are lined up, access must be granted to convicts. It’s not a vast conspiracy – a small concerted effort that exploits the preconceptions of left-leaning journalists is quite sufficient.
    And we’ve seen the Shabak and the left-leaning media do it before.
    Ben-David

  54. Ben David,
    You seem to have two main points:
    First, My point is that there are other big stories, big – and powerful – groups that are much more immediate challenges to both our physical peace and our values.
    So what? This conversation is about this, and that’s about that. There are many topics in the world.
    Second, Do PBS viewers get a picture of the conflict that reflects the real balance – or imbalance – of extremism and terror between the two sides?
    It’s important to clarify that this is a documentary by ISRAELI filmmakers, broadcast by PBS (not made for PBS per se). As was pointed out earlier, PBS has shown multiple documentaries about the conflict. This is part of the picture, and I don’t see this as overexposure of a single facet. It’s a facet that deserves attention, and clearly it’s NOT something on which news outlets are fixated– this was a one time doc.
    I understand your impulse to protect fellow Jews and point the lens elsewhere, but in my estimation it’s completely hypocritical to kick and scream about Islamist extremism without making a stand against our own extremists.

  55. Last,
    Yeah. Thanks for the rec. A lot of that info seems lifted from Muhammad Muslih’s book The Origins of Palestinian Nationalism but I don’t think any of the factual claims are strictly wrong. Some context or lack thereof I would quibble with. They do the obligatory mention of Nagib Azouri but don’t mention that he might have been in the pay of the French government, and also don’t mention that he is the only recorded Arab we have who called for actual Arab secession from the Ottoman Empire before 1914. Most of the Arabism at that time was focused on winning more Arab rights within the Ottoman framework. They also don’t mention that the Zionists managed to reverse Taher Husseini’s efforts to restrict land purchase by paying the Ottomans off, so that the ban only lasted a short while.

  56. So we’ve gone from:
    Must See TV
    …In my opinion, these radical elements are the greatest danger to the future of Israel and to the well being of the Jewish people.
    – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    to:
    So? There are many topics in the world.
    – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    Well, that’s progress of a sort.
    When (If?) some “concerned journalists” produce a documentary about the Palistinian rearmament – and when (if) PBS decides to broadcast it – I’m sure you’ll remember to flag that one as “MUST SEE TV” too….. uh-huh.
    Ben-David

  57. Truth is the airing of this documentary is a good thing.
    People should know about the supression of peoples rights in Israel.
    People are locked up in “administrative detension” for up to 6 months without charges – and then the 6 months can be renewed!
    – all because the government is scared that their views might become popular.
    Truth is that the arabs and the non-solution stick-your-head-in-the- sand policies of Jews have already made it popular.
    In the US the JDL or anyone with a strong Jewish Defense stand has been banned from marching in the Israel Day Parade for many years.
    People should also know of the supression of views by the Jewish establishment.

  58. Ben-David:
    “When (If?) some “concerned journalists” produce a documentary about the Palistinian rearmament – and when (if) PBS decides to broadcast it – I’m sure you’ll remember to flag that one as “MUST SEE TV” too….. uh-huh.”
    After disengagement, when all the crazy Jews are out of the territories and the Palestinians have a state, normal Jews, serving in the IDF, no longer wasting their time protecting the crazy Jews, can bomb Palestinians with impunity if they continue to threaten Israel with aggression. That’s what states do to aggressive neighbor states. Hell, give them tanks.

  59. When (If?) some “concerned journalists” produce a documentary about the Palistinian rearmament – and when (if) PBS decides to broadcast it – I’m sure you’ll remember to flag that one as “MUST SEE TV” too….. uh-huh.
    What makes you think I wouldn’t? You clearly have not followed my postings very carefully on this site, so either do some more research or refrain from judgment till you know me a little better.
    I still feel that the racist rhetoric, the xenophobia, the violent behavior of these kahanists is the greatest threat to the unity and progress of the Jewish people, especially in Israel. And yes, I also believe there are other threats (and non-threats) worth discussing.

  60. Does it occure to you you Ronan that some of these people you are trying to get to disown Kahanists are Kahane supporters?
    Also, these people are not necessarily jailed when they commit racist murders. In the late 90s a settler in Hebron beat an 11 yr old to death with a ballbat and he spent no time in jail for it. I tried to post a link to the Guardian article on it but this site won’t allow people to post links. I think that makes the arguments here singularly unfruitful. It is just a pissing contest without citations.
    Also Kahanist were not radicalized by being made illegal. There is a proKahane website called Kahane.org, where article by Kahane and interviews with Kahane are kept. He states several times he intends to kill Israeli democracy and replace it with rule by the Sanhedren. He also states that his ideal of Israel is more in line with the Ayatolla Khomeni, than with Jefferson. They were antidemocratic radicals to begin with. His supporters are in no way ashamed of this.

  61. Yes it occurs to me, and maybe I’m naive (probably), but I’d like to fight the good fight. I want people like Schmo to realize that there are alternatives to a Halachic state that are equally in line with Jewish values.
    You absolutely can post links in the comments section using HTML tag: Click Here to Find Out How

  62. Of course some of these people are pro-kahane- I am.
    This is because to me what he said is logical.
    Ronen I appreciate that you want to fight the good fight. At this point though I am not convinced that there are alternatives to a jewish state other than a Halachic state.
    To start simple, how would you envision a state “in line with Jewish values” in terms of democracy? Should Non-Jews have an equal vote? Yes or No?
    If yes even without getting into “Jewish value” specifics how can you stop them from voting not to have those Jewish values?
    Because of this simple question I find Kahane to be completely logical and rational in saying that a Jewish state cannot have a western democracy that allows anyone ie Non-Jews an equal vote.
    As an aside I have to say that I find it incredible that you support and have no problem with the supression of opinions that was documented in that video documentary that you linked to. Fight the good fight but if you can’t win the good fight- your second line of defense should not be to silence the other side!
    In either case does your Jewish value state include equal voting for Non-Jews? If so answer the question posed above.

  63. Joe, the Jews of Israel aren’t from Kahane’s type of Jew. They wanted the create a majority jewish state that was a democracy and they did. It can be both Jewish and a democracy so long as that majority exists. The only thing that threatens this majority and democracy are the damned settlements in the middle of Arab communities. Kahane’s vision would require ethnic cleansing.

  64. NoAlternative,
    I like you statement “so long as that majority exists”
    You simply ignored the whole issue.
    The issue is the growing Arab population that now has over 10 seats in the Knesset. That is only from arabs in the green line.
    The question was simple – but you found it easier to ignore.
    Do we allow Non-Jews to “democratically” vote on the character of a Jewish state even if they may change that character.
    Simple question – address it.

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