NCSY addresses divide between yeshiva students and parents
(Provided the yeshiva students are from an Orthodox background).
Rabbi Burg, the national director of NCSY, writes in the JTA that,
Thousands of Orthodox students will soon head off for their post-high school year of study at a yeshiva in Israel.
What about those public school students who you send to yeshiva who are not completely Orthodox?
Judging from recent years, many of them will contract what is derisively referred to as Flipping Out Syndrome, or FOS, a troubling malady that pits teenager against parent in a seemingly endless cycle of friction and misjudgment.
Rabbi Burg writes about this phenomenon as if NCSY is against this. In fact, NCSY encourages such behavior even domestically, and has for years. NCSY has long promoted increased religious observance as a form of rebellion.
As Michael Kress wrote in Salon back in 2000,
At a typical NCSY Shabbaton (weekend retreat), the Havdala (a ceremony ending Shabbat) always loomed large. A short celebration involving a multiwicked candle, wine and a spice box, Havdala is usually a quick affair. But at NCSY events, leaders would pass around the candle, asking kids to say something meaningful when the candle was passed to them. The kids’ stories generally involved nonobservant youth who became observant, thanks to the NCSY. And inevitably, those teens and preteens would elaborate on the sacrifices they made for their faith: enduring hostility from their parents; refusing to eat at their parents’ not-kosher-enough home; refusing to spend weekends at their non-Shabbat-observant home.
As disturbing as these narratives might have seemed (they certainly bothered me), the NCSY encouraged them. The organization openly disregarded parental concerns and prided itself on the courage of children who could make a complete lifestyle change overnight — the consequences be damned.
Note that Kress’s primary concern is not already Modern Orthodox Jews who become more religious, but rather, secular/liberal Jews who become Orthodox.
Yet Rabbi Burg does not address those concerns at all, even though he is writing for the JTA, a newswire that services community Jewish newspapers nationally, and those newspapers service a predominantly liberal and secular Jewish readership. But strangely, Rabbi Burg restricts the conflicts to those between already Modern Orthodox Jews and their Orthodox parents.
Let us be clear. The conflicts engendered by NCSY’s recruitment of liberal and secular Jews to haredi baal teshuvah yeshivas – which until recently, were all but the only yeshivas they sent such Jews to, never mind the dominant ones – is hardly limited to a disagreement over a specific vitamin’s kashrut acceptability. In fact, such issues may of very minor concern for most secular Jews overall compared to the larger ones they face.
But what Rabbi Burg did not address is the larger issues facing liberal and secular Jewish parents and their high school graduate teens.
The conflicts created from teens adopting the ideologies of the haredi institutions NCSY guides them to include (but are not limited to): A rejection of scientific method, in accordance with the haredi leaders they report to; a postponement of college indefinitely; a rejection of secular education as a worthy goal in itself; a rejection of full-time secular college; a preference for maximum halachic (Jewish Law) compliance (hardly restricted to kashrut); acceptance of stringencies not recognized as halacha outside of the ultra-Orthodox; anti-Americanism; encouragement of restrictive haredi garb; a rejection of friends and even family members who aren’t Orthodox; a contempt for Modern Orthodoxy; a belief that haredi leaders are near-infallible, an acceptance of inferior status within the ultra-Orthodox because of their niddah conception and non-Orthodox background.
It is unfortunate that Rabbi Burg did not address these concerns of secular and liberal Jewish parents. He is certainly aware of them. NCSY and the Orthodox Union have taken tremendous pride in recruiting their children to haredi yeshivas and seminaries. And NCSY has expanded the public school population they serve tremendously. They control over 170 clubs in our public schools. Rabbi Burg is the “dean” of the Jewish “Student” Union.
But perhaps that isn’t the point. Those parental concerns aren’t really any more valid now than they ever were for NCSY. Because they aren’t Orthodox.
At least Modern Orthodox Jewish parents have some leverage over NCSY. After all, the parent organization is the Orthodox Union, a right-wing Modern Orthodox organization, even if its youth group leans haredi. NCSY has been careful to offer already Modern Orthodox teens Modern Orthodox options because Modern Orthodox parents insisted on that.
But secular and liberal Jewish parents have no representation, and no voice. Additionally, they usually do not understand the difference between Modern Orthodoxy and ultra-Orthodoxy. Jewish parents think it is their kid, their kid’s specific baal teshuvah yeshiva/seminary, their kid’s specific rabbi.
NCSY has taken advantage of their naivety and trust consistently and effectively. The concerns come after the fact, not before. They don’t require addressing. At that point, NCSY already got what they wanted.
Even in this attempt to appear moderate in a Jewish newswire that primarily services secular and liberal Jewry, NCSY’s leader utterly ignores the concerns of secular and liberal Jewry.
Excuse me for feigning shock and surprise.
Earlier: Is NCSY appropriate for our public schools?
Not only does NCSY encourage these conflicts between teenagers and their parents, they compare it to Harry Potter vs. the Dursleys!
You’re missing out one crucial aspect of the population: secular kids who are doing this of their own accord. I was raised in a conservative synagogue, joined NCSY (and subsequently dropped out and became totally secular) — but, when I was in it, I really, really thought it was a great thing.
It’s a grave mistake to talk about the kids involved as if they have no say in all of this, or as if they’re being brainwashed by Rabbi Burg and the rest of NCSY. For a lot of kids, NCSY gives us a take on religion that’s entirely new and entirely welcome, not like hostile kidnappers but as a welcome influence. They taught us stuff that we desperately wanted to learn — and, for a lot of us, it was the best place to learn it.
And, yes, for a lot of us it *was* like Harry Potter and the Dursleys — and NCSY was our Hogwarts.
(That’s not saying that NCSY is perfect — and, in the wake of the OU’s coverup of the Baruch Lanner scandal, I’d think twice about sending anyone there — but, for all its problems, it also does a lot of good.)
Secular kids who are doing this of their own accord
Kids rarely do anything “of their own accord” – and they usually aren’t too smart about it.
teenage rebellion is the perfect catalyst for spiritual growth. but eventually, you know, you grow up and then its not enough to be rebellious. you have to try to be revolutionary.
yeah, i dont get why you’re acting like this kids are being brainwashed. campus religious organizations exist for one reason: to promote that religious viewpoint. if the kids didnt want to go, they wouldn’t go. no one is forcing these kids into yeshivos/seminaries. maybe you don’t like the kiruv movement. fine. but a lot of people get a lot out of it. why do you insist on crapping on other peoples’ life choices? what makes the kid who decides to go to Yale less “brainwashed” than the kid who decides to go to Ohr Samayach?
heck, i think we should stop teaching our kids that college education is a worthy goal in itself (and i’m a not-yet-frum college student). going to college should be about making money and/or making social change. i don’t believe in education for its own sake.
Wonder where the criticism is for secular schools that mock religious beliefs; or the universities that brainwash kids into liberalism.
incorrect – its not on this website. sorry.
BZ, its beautiful:
“Harry is Jewish. His parents died so that he might survive and carry on their legacy. Voldemort isn’t an evil wizard, but he does represent the forces of evil. He is Egyptian slavery. He is the Syrian-Greeks. He is Haman. He is the Roman persecution. He is the Spanish Inquisition. He is pogroms and Crusades and the Holocaust and the Intifada”
Sorry the post was a bit too long for my attention span.
I went to a couple of NCSY shabbatons in my youth. We ordered dominos after hours and tried to pick up Jewish chicks. We went back to high school after a decent weekend away from home.
We became religious on our own at a later time and we are glad for the NCSY experience as being a little part of that.
Teens normally search and experiment.
NCSY was the key to my learning what true Judaism is, and over 40 years after my first NCSY event, I’m still grateful to them.
shmuel asked,
“what makes the kid who decides to go to Yale less “brainwashed†than the kid who decides to go to Ohr Samayach?”
When did I say brainwashed? I did not.
But when a person–any person, but especially an underage person– is encouraged and guided to a very different trajectory than the one they are on, they and (if underage) their families should be given accurate and full information about what the institution, often overseas, promotes both educationally and in terms of lifestyle. Saying they are about “exploring your heritage” is absolutely not specific enough, particularly since B’nai Torah quiescent fundamentalism is the “heritage” of precious few liberal and secular American Jews. These haredi institutions that service Jews from liberal and secular backgrounds conceal their fundamentalism, and NCSY does so as well.
Shmuel also noted,
“going to college should be about making money and/or making social change. i don’t believe in education for its own sake.”
Most secular and liberal Jewish parents and their teens do. Most haredim agree with you that secular education itself is in itself worthless. Liberal and Jewish parents should know NCSY has no compunction at all recruiting kids like yours to such institutions, and hides these institutions’ rejection of and even their profound disrespect for secular knowledge from you. And the Orthodox Union has had no problem with this. They don’t want that to happen to their kids, but sending public school kids to haredi institutions has an OU hechsher.
Muse wrote,
“NCSY was the key to my learning what true Judaism is, and over 40 years after my first NCSY event, I’m still grateful to them.”
I don’t know what it was like 40 years ago, but it’s definitely gotten more frummed out in the last few decades. I find your suggestion of dismissal of current problems based on your personal experience over forty years ago absurd.
Matthue wrote,
“I’d think twice about sending anyone there — but, for all its problems, it also does a lot of good.”
One of the greatest failing both internally at NCSY and among their frum defenders is that no matter what the issue, no matter how horrible, they reflexively dismiss any bad because there is perceived good. Hence, no change or rethinking can take place. NCSY is doing kiruv, the are successfully promoting endogamy. that’s it for a lot of people. Especially frum people.
Well, it shouldn’t be. This is giving these guys a blank check, and we learned the hard way that they should not have one.
Every time a question comes up, NCSY points to the “Simple to Remember” chart, and we’re all supposed to shut up, and praise their massive expansion in our public schools, which reels teens into NCSY proper. I think liberal and secular Jewish parents should know about who these guys hold hands with, and what their partners stand for. And they should also not be fooled by the co-ed activities or any of the other window dressing.
This is NOT a Modern Orthodox youth group. People have a right to know, and what that means.
There is no reason NCSY could not continue to do the perceived good without recruiting and directing them to haredi institutions, or recruiting secular and liberal Jewish kids to crappy third tier Touro.
Josh wrote,
“Sorry the post was a bit too long for my attention span.”
That might explain why your personal anecdote had nothing to do with my criticisms of Rabbi Burg’s essays.
Dave, you got to chill out.
I have other issues with what Rabbi Burg writes in this article, but the bottom line is its fine. He tells parents, that you know, the reason that they seem to flip out is that there is not enough communication. Talk to your kids more, and not just talk at them, but talk to them about what interests them. Take an interest in their concerns and activities, and in particular those that you spend 15K for. That seems like solid advice and solid parenting. ANd wow, you’re all excited that this was on the JTA thing and didn’t speak at all to secular/liberal Jews, and well, there are are secular/liberal Jews who read. Well guess what DK, there are also frum, really frum, fanatically frum people who read it, and yeah MO characters too, who have kids in yeshiva. SO, just because he wasn’t speaking to you DK doesn’t mean there aren’t’ people who are interested in what he he had to write.
Number two, you got to back off this demon you’ve made up that you call NCSY. People in NCSY do do bad things, and people in NCSY do do good things. YOu talk about this monolithic entity that is so charedi and sucking Jews into their midst. Have you ever met the people who run NCSY. Have you ever met Rabbi Burg? He is far from charedi. Yes, not a liberal guy, but not charedi. Or David Frankel, the assistant director? Funny that people who proudly display an MA from JTS are now considered ‘charedi’ in your mind. Beyond that NCSY is big, it’s expansive, it’s diverse. There are many different characters.
A few years ago, I was a counselor on an NCSY Israel trip. THe diversity of both the campers and counselors was fantastic. Far beyond the typical dogmatic, uniform crop that you see at USY, NFTY, or Bnai Akiva. The counselors disagreed on every topic that was available, and do so respectfully, and the kids were truly allowed to grow and learn. Yes, not everything in NCSY lis like that, but some is.
Bottom line DK – you gotta stop. Just as we all, as liberal supporters of Israel so often make the distinciton between criticizing the policies of Israel and criticizing the existence of the State, so, you too, need to keep that in mind. YOu have problem with specific policies, specific actions, then talk about those actions, be precise, raise criticism, show a better model. Right now, the style of your criticism does nothing to make NCSY better or to help the Jewish people
Josh Frankel,
I have never criticized David Frankel. Not here, not on my own blog. Not in any posts. And I have written plenty. And it doesn’t matter that Rabbi Burg isn’t haredi. The problem is that his director of alumni, Rabbi Felsenthal, is clearly haredi, sends public school teens to haredi institutions, and does so with Rabbi Burg’s explicit approval. Rabbi Burg approves of sending public school teens into haredism in a way he might not approve of sending MO teens.
“The diversity of both the campers and counselors was fantastic. Far beyond the typical dogmatic, uniform crop that you see at USY, NFTY, or Bnai Akiva.”
Oh, well we know camper “diversity” is a big goal of NCSY, now, don’t we? There is a huge, huge difference between these groups and NCSY. Want to know what that is? It’s that those groups report to the parents of the kids they serve. Now, so does NCSY. To half of them. The frum half. But to the secular/liberal Jewish kids, there is no parental input internally. This organization is comprised of frumme yidden, but services friyah yidden as well, in fact, it targets them.
You want me to chill out? NCSY is the one that needs to chill out. They continue to expand rapidly into the public school system, partially in order to boost secular Jewish attendance to NCSY proper, with no secular/liberal Jewish parental oversight in terms of NCSY policies. And parents need to know who the JSU is. It is not a student group. It is not an ecumenical group. It is NCSY owned and operated.
“Right now, the style of your criticism does nothing to make NCSY better.”
I have explicated policies I believe need change. But I can’t change NCSY, just as NO secular or liberal Jews can change NCSY. What we can do is alert secular and liberal Jewish parents what is going on. That is all we can do. But if they understand what is happening, they will act. When they find out NCSY’s bias against Ivy League schools, NCSY’s long-standing preference for haredi Israeli programs for Jews from publics schools, their anti-condom position, NCSY’s preference for Touro and Touro feeder programs, they will tell them where to put their pizzas. NCSY is taking liberal and secular Jewry for schmucks. It’s a dubious strategy.
DK,
After reading your article, I found several thoughts debatable:
“In fact, NCSY encourages such behavior even domestically, and has for years. NCSY has long promoted increased religious observance as a form of rebellion.”
I don’t see how NSCY uses religious observance as a form of rebellion. How did you make that connection? Is disagreeing with your parents a form of rebellion? If these students had come back vegetarians, would that be a form of rebellion?
Michael Kress’s statement that: “And inevitably, those teens and preteens would elaborate on the sacrifices they made for their faith: enduring hostility from their parents; refusing to eat at their parents’ not-kosher-enough home; refusing to spend weekends at their non-Shabbat-observant home.”
This is almost laughable in today’s society of underage drinking/smoking, teenage pregnancy, sexual immodesty, STDs and depression are major concerns, these parents have to deal with their children not eating off their plates. If these teens had been taught the importance of recycling or donating to the poor (which Judaism does teach) and encountered resistance from their families, most people would applaud them for standing up for their beliefs.
‘As disturbing as these narratives might have seemed (they certainly bothered me), the NCSY encouraged them.’
So NSCY encouraged them to put into practice their beliefs. This doesn’t seem bad. If only teenagers actually stood up for their beliefs. Now I can understand the concern of being observant in a respectful and thoughtful manner (which Judaism, through the Torah dictates with honoring your parents). Rabbi Berg seems to encourage ending this friction. Also, most of the Kiruv organizations I have been in touch with encourage a slow progression instead of “overnight” transformations as his article stated.
The ideas that most shocked and saddened me were put forth by you:
“The conflicts created from teens adopting the ideologies of the haredi institutions NCSY guides them to include (but are not limited to): A rejection of scientific method, in accordance with the haredi leaders they report to”
What a generalization! I wonder if Dr. Schroeder, a teacher at Aish (and also PHD from MIT) rejects the scientific method? (He wrote The Science of God and the Hidden Face of God) which use use that very same scientific method.
I refer interested readers to the “dreaded” Aish website, which talks about this idea: http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Man_of_Science3_Man_of_Faith.asp
“a postponement of college indefinitely”
Based on what information are you saying this?
“a rejection of full-time secular college”
Most Orthodox rabbis I know are not against the education of secular studies, but the environment of college, where at most universities, drinking, sex and occasionally class dominate the landscape. One only has to look at Spring Break of evidence of what has become to symbolize college life.
“anti-Americanism”
Again, please show me any factual basis for this statement. Many Orthodox rabbis I know are against the typical American dream of working 60 hours a week, having 2 children, buying an overly expensive house and consuming yourself with material objects. If this is considered “Anti-American” please let remind me to review the Constitution (which was heavily based on Torah concepts, since the Fathers of this amazing document were well versed in the Bible).
“a rejection of friends and even family members who aren’t Orthodox”
Orthodox rabbis who preach rejecting family or friends who are not orthodox violate the commandment of loving your neighbor/friend as yourself. I have heard rabbis caution the newly observant that the actions, speech and beliefs of their friends and family may go against their values and that they should be careful. Never have I heard them say you should “reject” them.
“an acceptance of inferior status within the ultra-Orthodox because of their niddah conception and non-Orthodox background”
This is the most obsence statement. Please look at Talmud, Berachot 34b, where ) where it tell us that “in the place where baalei teshuvah (“returneesâ€) stand, utter tzaddikim cannot stand.†This is additional closeness to G-d.
Also, Kabbalah stresses that Moschiach will return following the baalei teshuva movement.
Rabbi Akiva, maybe the greatest rabbi ever was a BT (although I don’t know if his mother mikva’ed before his conception).
Also, in the Talmud of Sanhedrin (eyin beis) it discusses that BTs are closer to G-d (in some aspects) than FFBs.
Would be interested in your thoughts.
Best,
Patrick
Kids rarely do anything “of their own accord†– and they usually aren’t too smart about it.
amit —
please, please, please: if you’re going to be this way, never comment again on anything i say. not on JS, at least — then i won’t have to read it.
i’m being serious.
if you think kids never do anything of their own accord, then clearly, you are living in a sheltered world without any contact with the next generation. (about which, maybe, the rest of the world should breathe a sigh of relief.) as an educator, i’ve seen that kids have more brain power than most of the rest of us. they can see the world, not as it is, but as it will ideally be. kids write the best stories. kids sing the best songs. and they do it all of their own accord — except maybe eating their vegetables, but hey, everyone comes around sooner or later.
some director, i can’t remember who, said that the next person to revolutionize the film industry wasn’t going to be a spielberg or a paris hilton, but a 14-year-old girl with a webcam. here’s hoping.
matthue, you must be talking about some different kids.
Patrick– the points you make assume that Orthodox Judaism l’ maiseh is actually just like what the Torah says, as opposed to what’s come ever since those Gemaras were written. The Rabbi Akiva example is telling: Who in positions of Jewish religious authority now haven’t come from mechubad families?
“Also, Kabbalah stresses that Moschiach will return following the baalei teshuva movement.”
I’m sure no one but me cares, but I have to wonder: what are you referring to? besides the Aish/Chabad flier.
“the youth will reject a hollow spirit of falseness, like the body rejects poison.”–Lubavitcher Rebbe
I’ll never forget when the first of my NCSY buddies went to college and found a list of cult warning signs in her dorm. It was eerily familiar.
There were plenty of shabbatons (winter regional, anyone?) when I found friends sobbing in the bathroom because the rabbis said that they shouldn’t speak to their intermarried siblings/parents (i.e. the kid’s mom had remarried a non-Jew). The rabbi in question though that the girl shouldn’t live with her mother anymore – but the mother had custody, and the father lived far away. Oh, and the girl loved her mother and was happy with her.
NCSY may work for some people, but it’s pretty sick – and I don’t just mean the Lanner thing. Does anyone else think it’s odd that none of the advisers were actually trained to work with teenagers? They were just dumb (and frequently horny) college kids! Why should a freshman at YU supervise 15 year olds?
This so reminds me of the biggest tragedy of my life – I remember when I first went away to camp, my parents swore to me they would keep my pet duck safe and sound – my camp counselors told me not to trust my parents – I went home for the break between sessions to discover my duck had been their dinner – I swore then to never trust anyone except my counselors again – but when I went back to camp I discovered the counselors eating their own duck dinners – that’s when I discovered – everything sucked – my parents, every authority figure – so I broke free – I became a unibomber – now I destroy everything – if I can’t find an unblemished individual, they all must be destroyed – I hate everyone!
Anyone remember JPSY? It was a precursor to JSU, back in the ’80s. I was a chapter president.
Before NCSY really took an interest in it, it was a pretty good program, and they showed us a copy of “The Wave.”
Then NCSY got interested, took it in hand, and sent us a charismatic organizer name Mordecai Gafni.
I looked at Mordecai, remembered “The Wave,” thought “Holy crap, this guy is THAT kind of leader,” and walked away from JPSY, and Judaism, for, like, 20 years.
Now I am an engaged Reform Jew, and I regard myself as a BT of sorts, having returned to Judaism after a 20 year absence.
As a Reform Jew I look at programs like this from NCSY, and I ask myself, why aren’t WE doing that. Why aren’t WE reaching out to the unaffiliated Jews in the twice-a-year families and offering them a Judaism that does not demand that they reject reason, or turn on their families, but spurs them to greater levels of practice and education.
Matthue writes above “For a lot of kids, NCSY gives us a take on religion that’s entirely new and entirely welcome, not like hostile kidnappers but as a welcome influence. They taught us stuff that we desperately wanted to learn — and, for a lot of us, it was the best place to learn it.”
That’s the problem in a nutshell; as long as USY and TPTY cede the ground of the Public Schools to NCSY, and do not offer the students the opportunity to learn about the tradition that they do, NCSY will continue to steal our children. Doesn’t do much good to bitch about it in a vacuum. We need to make stuff happen.
MO has a different issue. NCSY is ostensibly the Youth Movement of their organization, the OU, but it’s manufacturing right-wing automata opposed to the political liberalism many MO Jews engage in.