No Women Allowed at Seder!
An article in The Jewish Week about a new Haggadah for men only has really got me confused. Here is an admittedly simplistic timeline of the last 35 years.
- Judaism is seen as being too male centered, with commentaries on the Torah written by males for males and women excluded from various rituals.
- Reform Judaism takes note and goes completely egalitarian – ordaining its first female Rabbi in 1972.
- Over the next 30 years male participation in Reform Judaism drops drastically – going from 400 Brotherhoods with 40,000 members to 250 Brotherhoods with 20,000 members and dropping to only 20 -25 percent of Hebrew Union College Rabbinical student body.
- Since “much of the new spirituality in Judaism feels effeminate to men”, in 2008, Reform Judaism attempts to woo men back by putting out a collection of commentaries on the Torah by male Rabbis about male topics.
- In a further attempt to deal with the imbalance Reform Judaism then puts out a Haggadah exclusively for males and 25 Brotherhoods around the country buy these Haggadahs and conduct a MALE ONLY SEDER (even female Cantor’s excluded)!
So apparently men have different needs then women after all! They need their own space, agendas and perspective in order to connect to spirituality. Can you see why this would be confusing?
[Blessings for a wonderful Yom Tov to all – male and female! May we all be worthy of connecting to the spiritual emanations of global, national and personal redemption available to us through the mitzvot of Pesach.]
So apparently men have different needs then women after all! They need their own space, agendas and perspective in order to connect to spirituality. Can you see why this would be confusing?
I think this men’s haggadah is nonsense. As a Reform Jewish man, I’ll be the first to admit that if you’re looking for a men-only Jewish space, the Orthodox world does it much better then this “men’s seder” ever will, and if you’re looking for Jewish texts written by men for men, there are thousands of years of examples in print already. I participate in liberal Jewish communities because (among other reasons) they are egalitarian and don’t discriminate based on gender.
So apparently men have different needs then women after all! They need their own space, agendas and perspective in order to connect to spirituality.
Not at all. Men (have been)[are still] educated to view women as inferior, so when women do certain things, men stop doing them. Just “letting” women participate won’t do the trick – men have to be educated to become egalitarian as well.
And I agree with BZ – if you want your “band of brothers” testosterone experience, you must not be all that liberal after all.
Look, there is value to the homosocial experience, so wanting that doesn’t make you not liberal, or non-egalitarian; this is the principal behind women’s-only safe spaces, too. The problem is when the space is a space of denial and privilege, rather than affirmation and commonality. As someone who values homosocial space (sometimes ::gasp:: even in a spiritual context!) and is male-identified, I’ve experienced this problem. I’ve also experienced it in female-only safe space that I’ve shared in in the past. But I still maintain that homosocial spaces provide a unique experience that is valuable, and I’m a highly-atypical participant in them to say the least.
The larger problem in the Reform movement is that there is great work being done at the top (ordination of female rabbis), but not a lot of education beyond that to change attitudes toward women in general. Just like the panic being produced in higher education about more women seeking and receiving degrees than men, so too in the rabbinate, and female rabbis generally have a harder time finding pulpit positions, since the vision of a legitimate rabbi is still a male one. I agree that it’s wonderful to ordain women, but it’s just not enough.
I hear that they’ve added a banana to the seder plate.
I personally have no problem with it; I want to participate in women’s-only spiritual space some of the time, so if men want that too, I don’t see how I could reasonably object, so long as both men and women continue to primarily commit to dual-gendered egalitarian communal space.
I love the banana on the seder plate. Anyone have a suggestion for a symbol for transgender identity?
Whoa whoa — BZ, I’m a bit surprised at you.
Although some men might turn to the all-male Orthodox yeshiva world to find male bonding, the authors write, “few of us feel, for a multiplicity of reasons, that the yeshiva is our place.â€
Is the yeshiva world affirming of the liberal man if the only version of a “good” male there is a bearded schnorer who gave it all up for Torah? I think not! It may be male-affirming, but it’s not liberal male-affirming.
There’s a GIGANTIC difference between orthodoxy and mainstream male life views. As a simple expample, if you were a guy looking for dating advice, would you go to an orthodox seder where the first woman most of them dated was likely their last?
But what I really love about this haggadah is that it’s a great new tool for people of a like kind (in this case men) to talk about the issues that concern them (prostate cancer, impotence, hair loss, as the article describes). Where else are these topics being discussed in a Jewish framework — and how those places are surely going to be enhanced by a sourcebook like this.
Just a question – are there any female Cantors in New York who follow in the mold of great traditional Cantors? I mean, no self authored prayers, no Carlbach influenced sing alongs, just straight up traditional Judaism without any gender influence or new twists to it. I’m guessing they exist, but who, and where? I would be inclined to care a lot less if I could find the service I’m used to, and prefer, being led by a female, rather then the reform, reconstructionist variety they’re more often then not associated with.
umm how about some numbers here.
compare: the year reform judaism took various steps towards egalitarianism and the levels of male participation before and after.
also compare the same for conservative and build a case.
I personally think if there is any relation at all, it is correlation, not causation, because religion in the US in general is becoming more and more female, and Judaism is generally part of bigger social trends.
but I have not seen numbers, and without numbers, why even assume correlation? maybe the male decline started before egal stuff.
it seems male participation in all things redemption oriented seems down— don’t know why, but… it did say nashim tzidkaniyot- the righteous women will lead… will the guys follow/ step up?
happy to be alive– moadim l’simcha
Weeeellll…
SInce I’ve actually addressed the matter of the Reform movement’s ridiculousness in seeking male space (just for the record, I don’t do Rosh Chodesh women’s groups, or the “it’s a girl thing” that everyone pushes these days, either) I won’t get into that, but how about this:
But what I really love about this haggadah is that it’s a great new tool for people of a like kind (in this case men) to talk about the issues that concern them (prostate cancer, impotence, hair loss, as the article describes). Where else are these topics being discussed in a Jewish framework — and how those places are surely going to be enhanced by a sourcebook like this.
Uh, is that what we should be addressing in a haggadah? Seriously, folks.
I’m not claiming that these aren’t things that might be important to men, but why at the seder? Couldn’t the Reform movement get something going that doesn’t upstage an actual holiday? Couldn’t they run it as a program? Maybe the Reform movement could use the seder as an opportunity to teach men how to kasher for pesach, or help with the cooking so that their wives don’t end up doing it all, or even, *gasp* talk about the exodus and what it means to be a Reform Jew and talk about what going out from Egypt to serve God might mean to the Reform?
Oh, forget it, what’s all that to a discussion of male pattern baldness?
I vehemently disagree with KRG – there is nothing more important than pattern baldness. I mean, even prostate cancer is realatively controllable, but pattern baldness is indeed a plague.
PUH-LEASE.
BZ –
i am really surprised at your response.
it is hardly against feminism to hold that unique spaces should be available for those who identify with a certain gender. support can easily be found in the work of luce irigaray.
i have deeply felt that one of the problems with the way the reform and conservative movements have done egalitarianism is just to open the floodgates and erase all gender uniquity. we’re just doing the same thing but now with women participating in a faulty system. a big point of feminism and egalitarianism is a critique of the way we see gender. now, there are rosh chodesh groups and women’s prayer groups etc… why aren’t you upset about those.
all-male spaces are bad if they rearticulate the patriarchy we are trying to get rid of. but: to have spaces when men can feel special around other men, create a positive homosocial space… where we can imagine a new masculinity… that can hardly be bad, right?
to have spaces when men can feel special around other men, create a positive homosocial space… where we can imagine a new masculinity… that can hardly be bad, right?
Wrong. The whole dynamic of needing to feel special about your gender creates the very problem you’re claiming to want to address. One can’t imagine a new masculinity that doesn’t rearticulate the old patriarchy if you do it in isolation, without the people who have been erased (women) – think about how Jews have felt recently about Christians reimagining philosemitism without our input- you get things like a call for more missionizing from the pope. I mean, after all, he’s doing it for love of us, right? The fact of the matter is that it isn’t just men who have been disappearing from shuls, but no one is -movementwide- crying about the sisterhoods and and trying to do something about the fact that women still are drastically in the minority in leadership positions, and don’t even get into pay inequity. Speaking of which “just to open the floodgates and erase all gender uniquity.”
I read as “iniquity,” and I think that would be a real service. But not much is being done about it. and this latest least of all.
now, there are rosh chodesh groups and women’s prayer groups etc… why aren’t you upset about those.
Actually, I am. Rosh Chodesh as a women’s holiday makes sense in a milieu where all the other holidays are implicitly men’s holidays, but I think it has no place in communities that are otherwise egalitarian. Given that many egalitarian-in-name communities aren’t yet egalitarian-in-fact, I can understand still wanting a women’s space for some things as long as women continue to be discriminated against, but this should be done without claiming an entire holiday for women and thus furthering gender-based limitations.
Has anyone ever thought of it this way (credit goes to my friend NE for pointing this out to me): The pool of Jews in American society who are interested in being religious is limited. Many people will (and have) gravitate toward Orthodoxy because of its intensity, close-knit communities, professed authenticity, whatever. Women might be more likely to feel excluded from Orthodoxy and look for more inclusive alternatives. Men, however, as BZ points out, can find great collective effervescence within Orthodoxy.
In other words, if the question is “Why aren’t more men involved in liberal Judaism,” the answer might be, “they are Orthodox” and not “liberal Judaism is too effeminate.”
Nope, it’s that liberal Judaism is too effeminate. Good try though.
But really, I think some proof at this point is needed that ‘more men are becoming orthodox than women’. It’s not that I deny that claim, but I would just like to know more. I would bet myself that it’s a bit true, but by what margin?
Also, try this on for size: For those than view Orthodoxy as sexist and whatnot, that would be like accusing whites of being racist or something, right, just because they’re white? As in, if you think that Orthodoxy is sexist, and lots of men join Orthodoxy, presumably those who have similar views to you, then… you’re accusing them all of sexism and ignorance and whatnot. Which, I guess, is the point. Dang, we Orthodox are just so good at getting people to forget all those newfangles modern norms!
Hmm..
It’s actually a good point.
I don’t think Orthodox men or Men-who-become-Orthodox are sexist by definition, though a few are. But it’s a rare special person who is motivated to join a religious group because he percieves it as a good place to act out his antisocial urges.
But anyway…
In my experience I’ve seen a definite gender split as folks become more involved in Judaism. Many more men go to the Orthodox world for exactly the reasons Ezra said — there’s no perceived barrier to their participation. Many women (and gays, lesbians, transgendered as well) tend to veer off the Ortho track soon after they find themselves unsatisfied with the long-term prospects of staying in that community, and go to super-frum ‘Servo shuls or the local indie minyan.